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Lawmakers Grill TikTok CEO Over Chinese Privacy Concerns; Trump Lawyer To Testify After Trump Appeal Fails; Secretary Of State Blinken Faces Questions On Afghanistan Troop Drawdown. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired March 23, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

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JESSICA DEAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone. I'm Jessica Dean in Washington, DC. So, glad to have you. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Great to be with you, Jessica. I'm Boris Sanchez. We're thrilled that you can share an afternoon with us.

We start with a pressing question in tech and for parents too. Should the United States ban TikTok? The social media app has more than 150 million users in the United States alone. It's a question that's front of mind for President Biden and today for members of Congress as well. TikTok CEO, Shou Chew was thoroughly grilled by lawmakers over whether the Chinese government has access to the private data of American users, and whether the Chinese Communist Party could influence American politics.

DEAN: Chew says they're working on a project to move all future data into the U.S. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHOU CHEW, TIKTOK CEO: And I'm from Singapore. That's where I was born.

REP. ANNA ESHOO, (D-CA): Has that data -- whoa, how can you promise that that will move into the United States of America and be protected here?

CHEW: Congresswoman, I have seen no evidence that the Chinese government has access to that data. They have never asked us. We have not provided. I've asked that question --

ESHOO: But you know what? I find that -- I find that actually preposterous.

CHEW: Is controlled by American personnel.

REP. BOB LATTA, (R-OH): The question is. Do any ByteDance employees in China, including engineers currently, have access to U.S. data?

CHEW: Congressman, I would appreciate this. This is a complex topic. Today, all data is stored by default --

LATTA: Yes or no. It's not that complex. Yes or no. Do they have access to user data?

CHEW: We have after Project Texas is done, the answer is no. Today, there is still some data that we need to delete.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: CNN national security reporter Natasha Bertrand has been following this for us today. Natasha, obviously deep concerns about access to American data by the Chinese government. Did the CEO -- did he say anything to call these security fears which are bipartisan, by the way?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Well, just he certainly tried. Whether or not lawmakers actually believed what he was saying is another question entirely. But the main argument that he was making during this hearing today is that TikTok has essentially started the process and nearly completed it of moving all U.S. data from TikTok onto U.S.-based servers based in Texas. They are going to be overseen by the company Oracle, which has its headquarters in Austin. And so, his argument was that that will create a firewall between any U.S. data and TikTok's parent company, the Chinese company ByteDance.

Now, he explained that this process -- this project that they're conducting, it is referred to as Project Texas. And he believes that that is going to really assuage a lot of the key national security concerns that lawmakers expressed today. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHEW: The bottom line is this. American data is stored on American soil by an American company overseen by American personnel. We call this initiative Project Texas. That's why Oracle is headquartered.

Today, U.S. TikTok data is stored by default in Oracle Service. Only vetted personnel operating in a new company called TikTok U.S. Data Security can control access to this data.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERTRAND: Now, as you heard, one lawmaker has already called this idea preposterous that China would not be able to access any of this user data. And another lawmaker said, "I don't believe it is technically possible to accomplish what TikTok says it will accomplish through Project Texas."

Now importantly, lawmakers did not explain why they do not believe that this is going to be an effective way to prevent American user data from ending up in the hands of the Chinese government and they did not provide any actual evidence that the Chinese government has used TikTok to actually spy on Americans. But so far, you know, the lawmakers are really just grilling this CEO and they are not being really alleviated -- their concerns are not being alleviated by anything that he is saying. Borris and Jessica.

SANCHEZ: Yes. Senator Mark Warner, who sponsored legislation to ban TikTok has said that he believes after this testimony, his bill is going to get even more support from lawmakers. Natasha Bertrand, thank you so much.

DEAN: And I'm joined now by Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Dingell who serves on the House Energy and Commerce Committee. That's where the CEO appeared today. She was able to question the TikTok CEO.

[14:05:03]

Congresswoman, it's always great to see you. Thanks so much for making time for us. I just want to know what you think. Do you think the U.S. should ban TikTok?

REP. DEBBIE DINGELL, (D-MI): No, I haven't come out and said that. But I have to say that this hearing has been very disquieting in the inability to get strong answers. He has -- the CEO, I'll give him credit for being there. But I will also tell him that he's the only person that I've ever seen costs such by partisan right now in these times. The entire committee is very concerned about what's happening with TikTok. And when you ask questions, you don't get very many definitive answers, which is contributing to (INAUDIBLE) about how much data is being captured by the Chinese, how they are influencing, what our children are seeing.

I tell you, the most stunning thing for me today was the death threat that's on TikTok against the committee chair, our Republican committee chairs. It's been there for 42 days. When they're saying that they don't allow violence -- TikTok to be violence to be on their site, it's been on not quite a day. I think it has reinforced many people's fears.

DEAN: And we heard just now from our reporter, Natasha Bertrand, she was talking about how the CEO, Chew was talking about this Project Texas and that the data could be stored in America by American company. Did that assuage any of your fears or your colleagues' fears, do you think?

DINGELL: I have to be very honest. When we have Chinese balloons flying over this country, when we know how much our data is being captured by other people, when we know the kinds of things that are impacting our national security, no, it's not easing you from fears. And the lack of definitive answers to many of the questions we have today, I need to get back to you, I can't answer that clearly, has done nothing to make me have more confidence in Project Texas. It makes me -- it's just -- I think, it's adding to the anxiety of all of us.

DEAN: And, Congresswoman, there are some 150 million users of TikTok. I would venture to say the majority of whom spent hours on the app have no idea about any of this or don't really -- haven't really plugged into any of these spheres that you all have been talking about today. They -- if it goes away, they're just going to be mad at went away. Make your case to them. What would you say to someone who is -- who loves TikTok, is on it all the time, thinks that it's a great value add to their life? What is the case you'd make to them?

DINGELL: So, I'm not going to say it's just about TikTok. It's about all social media sites. There are many applications, many are using in this country, that they have no idea how their privacy is being tracked every single day. The kind of data that is being stored in them, that is not only targeting marketers, but is telling people about who you are and where you are, what your income is, what your health issues are, and can be used in so many different ways. From young people when they go to get a job to older people in terms of insurance needs medicines, the kinds of -- these are, unfortunately, the cats out of the bag in many ways.

But we need to pay attention to privacy issues, period, the kind of data people are storing on us, and also our young people have no idea of knowing what is truth and not truth. And we need to teach them somehow that their minds are having things spent with them to help them think a certain way. And that's a danger to them, too.

DEAN: Congresswoman Debbie Dingell, thanks so much for joining us. Always great to see you.

DINGELL: Thank you. Good to see you.

DEAN: And a quick programming note for you. Tune in to CNN primetime tonight when Abby Phillip takes a look at TikTok's future amid calls to ban the app. Abby hosts, Is It Time Up For TikTok? It's tonight, right here on CNN at 9:00 p.m.

SANCHEZ: So, if you were going by former President Donald Trump's timeline, he should have been arrested two days ago. But the New York Grand Jury looking into the case against him is apparently taking a pause. Sources tell CNN that the next time members are going to gather is on Monday and it's possible that jurors are actually going to hear more testimony from a witness they've already heard from. The DA leading the probe is not yet commenting.

DEAN: But today, we are hearing the DA, Alvin Bragg push back against several top House Republicans all of whom are Donald Trump allies. They call this week for Bragg to testify before Congress accusing him of prosecutorial misconduct. Bragg via his office attorney rejected their inquiry in a very blistering letter.

CNN congressional reporter Melanie Zanona is on Capitol Hill. And, Melanie, this letter from the District Attorneys General Counsel just slammed the Republicans' requests to his office.

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: Yes. A pretty searing response from the Manhattan District Attorney's office.

[14:10:03]

They said that the Republican investigation has no legitimate basis. They rejected the idea that their investigation into Donald Trump is politically motivated, calling it completely unfounded. And they're also calling into question the Republicans' motivation in all this.

I want to read you part of the letter from the General Counsel. They said that the GOP probe is an unprecedented inquiry into a pending local prosecution. The letter only came after Donald Trump created a false expectation that he would be arrested the next day, and his lawyers reportedly urged you to intervene.

Neither fact is a legitimate basis for Congressional inquiry. But nonetheless, the Manhattan District Attorney's office said they're willing to meet with these committees to determine if there is indeed some sort of legislative purpose if there are some documents that they might be able to turn over, as long as it doesn't infringe on New York's sovereign interests. They were given a deadline of today to respond. So clearly, they're trying to find some sort of resolution here.

And all of this comes as Republicans are actually expanding their probe into the Manhattan District Attorney's office. Last night, Jim Jordan, who chairs the House Judiciary Committee requested both documents and testimony from two prosecutors -- former prosecutors in the Manhattan DA's office. But it is unclear whether Republicans are willing to issue subpoenas if they do not get the type of responses that they are looking for. Also, very unclear if those would hold up in court anyway. My colleague Annie Grayer caught up with Jim Jordan moments ago asked for his response to all of this. And he said we're still reviewing the letter. Jess and Boris.

DEAN: Yes, more to come. But that is less what we'll be watching about the subpoena. And if that would even hold up in court. Melanie Zanona on Capitol Hill for us, thanks so much.

SANCHEZ: Turning now to another criminal investigation of former President Trump this one at the federal level regarding those hundreds of classified documents found in his Florida State. Our source says that tomorrow, Donald Trump's attorney, Evan Corcoran is expected to give further testimony before a federal grand jury.

Remember, that's because an appeals court ruled yesterday Corcoran must do so. They compelled him after a lower court judge found that Trump may have used his defense lawyer in the perpetration of a possible crime. Sources say that Trump's side is not expected to try another appeal, this time to the Supreme Court.

Joining me now is Harry Litman. He's a former U.S. attorney and Deputy Assistant Attorney General. He's now, a host of the podcast Talking Feds. And he writes in LA Times Legal Affairs column as well.

Harry, we're grateful that you are with us this afternoon. Obviously, with Corcoran testifying tomorrow, he's providing testimony and documents including handwritten notes. If you're prosecuting this case, what questions are you asking him?

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Well, for starters, let's see all these documents. But then he now has to testify, Boris, about the very conversations he had with Trump at the time when they were preparing and sending a declaration that was false to -- in response to a subpoena. They said, we're done on a full search and we haven't found anything. That's a really serious transgression, a clean violation as far as prosecutors are concerned.

And he is, by the ruling of the court of appeals, required to just give it all up chapter and verse that was -- the same as if it would be for any other witness. We'll see if he possibly tries to invoke the Fifth Amendment. But short of that, he's got to give everything and give it in the context here because it's really crystal in violation of -- and obstruction in making a false declaration to a subpoena. It could be the centerpiece of the case that Jack Smith is now building involving the Mar-a-Lago documents.

SANCHEZ: It is unusual for a judge to pierce that attorney-client privilege.

LITMAN: Yes.

SANCHEZ: But a Trump spokesperson -- I want to make sure I get this right. A Trump spokesperson told CNN. "Prosecutors only attack lawyers when they have no case whatsoever.? Is that true, Harry?

LITMAN: I mean, it's silly on its face, isn't it? They do it only when they need that evidence and they have the ability. It is rare because it's very rare for lawyers and clients to conspire together to do a crime. Really important to note what the district court found and the Court of Appeals affirmed is they are in these very communications that he's going to have to tell the grand jury about tomorrow.

It's probable -- it's probable that this is an actual crime in and of itself in these communications. So, that's killer testimony. It rarely happens not because prosecutors don't want it, but because that's not how lawyers and clients behave, except Donald Trump.

SANCHEZ: Well, Harry, I want to ask you about these new developments in that defamation case between E. Jean Carroll and Donald Trump. A judge ruled today that the jury is going to remain anonymous over fears of potential harassment. How unusual is that?

[14:15:06]

LITMAN: Quite. You know, it involves not just high-profile defendants but ones that could be you know, potentially worrisome as far as security goes. But this is a bit of both a careful judge and a judge who's really given full birth to E. Jean Carroll to air her allegations. I think this one is looking problematic for Trump. He's also the judge who ruled that there -- that certain evidence like the Access Hollywood tape can come in, either previous allegations of sexual assault. So, this is moving kind of like a freight train that won't stop until trial. And unless he didn't comes up with a very big settlement, I think it's going to be a big verdict against him.

SANCHEZ: And, Harry, as you know, there's a lot of cases that are facing Donald Trump right now. I want to ask you about the one in Manhattan, specifically, the general counsel for the district attorney sending this letter in response to House Republicans requesting that district attorney Alvin Bragg testified before them. The general counsel here -- the letter is scathing.

LITMAN: Yes.

SANCHEZ: It diminishes all of their arguments. It provides testimony and documents and legal theory as well as to why they believe that this is inappropriate. But the general counsel still requests that there'd be a meeting between the DA and House Republicans. What do you make of that aspect of the letter?

LITMAN: Yes. Well, Iron Fist in a little bit of velvet glove at the end, we'll give you what we can but the basic -- it's not going to satisfy Jordan. The basic request that he wants is for information that no member of Congress could ever have for a local prosecution.

And I think Melanie is right. If he tries to take it to court, he'll lose. There's just no basis for Congress to be overseeing and meddling in a local prosecution this way.

SANCHEZ: And, Harry, that argument that was brought up in the letter that this is an "unlawful incursion into New York sovereignty." It sounds like you believe that this could stand up in court. The DA obviously preparing for a potential legal fight if Bragg gets subpoenaed.

LITMAN: You know, nobody can stop Jordan from suing. But yes, I think it would stand up in court. It's very much in the middle of the heartland of New York's sovereign interests. And it's just well established under the law, which by the way, is the major bottom line of the letter. Even if you think this is political, there are legal remedies to bring and they are not members of Congress meddling in ongoing criminal prosecutions.

SANCHEZ: Yes. We hit a lot of cases this afternoon. We appreciate you joining us, Harry Litman.

LITMAN: Yes, I sure do.

SANCHEZ: We hope you'll come back once there are more developments. Thanks so much.

LITMAN: Thank you. Thanks, Boris.

DEAN: A stunning revelation from transportation secretary Pete Buttigieg, who says that near collisions on airport runways are occurring at double the rate of past years. Up next. He'll explain why.

SANCHEZ: Plus, the family member of a U.S. service member killed during the withdrawal in Afghanistan last year, wiping away tears today on Capitol Hill. You're going to hear some emotional testimony when we come back.

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[14:22:09] SANCHEZ: Secretary of State Antony Blinken testified today before the House Foreign Affairs Committee over America's chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan. In an emotional moment, the mother-in-law of one of the U.S. service members killed during the troop drawdown was recognized by Committee Chairman Michael McCaul.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL, (R-TX): Let me just say to her and all the veterans of that conflict, you did not get wounded in vain. You did not die in vain. What you did was worth it because you protected America for 20 years from attack.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: CNN's Kylie Atwood is joining us now from the State Department. Kylie, tell us more about what the Secretary of State said this morning as well.

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, listen, there were quite a few questions from Chairman McCaul for the secretary of state regarding the committee's investigation into the Biden administration's withdrawal from Afghanistan. There are three sets of documents that McCaul has been clear that he wants from the State Department for their investigation.

The first are evacuation plans for the embassy. Those embassy evacuation plans have actually been provided. Yesterday, there are about 3000 documents according to a source familiar that went from the state to the committee and those evacuation plans are part of them.

But then there are two other buckets. The first is the actual plans that the -- excuse me, the state department's review of the plans for this withdrawal, their after-action report. That is something that the secretary of state said is going to be provided over the course of the next few weeks. And that is something that Chairman McCaul appeared to be satisfied with.

But then the third thing here is this dissent cable. And that was a cable written by diplomats to the Secretary of State to senior officials here at the State Department, that hasn't been provided to the committee yet. And the secretary of state described that that is a channel for diplomats to speak truth to power in a confidential way. And he doesn't want to taint that process. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: It is vital to me that we preserve the integrity of that process and of that channel, that we did not take any steps that could have a chilling effect on the willingness of others to come forward in the future to express dissenting views on the policies that are being pursued.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ATWOOD: Now, the secretary did offer to brief the Committee on the relevant information in that channel, but he just doesn't want to provide the cable itself because he doesn't essentially want those diplomats who wrote that cable to feel like they are becoming part of you know, this back and forth between the Hill and between the State Department. Now, Chairman McCaul didn't seem to be buying that argument. He said that they still need that cable. He gave the State Department until Monday night to provide it and he held up a subpoena that he's going to be issuing if that isn't provided, Jes, Boris.

[14:25:02]

SANCHEZ: All right, so many continue to watch for. Blinken also mentioning that there are dozens of American citizens who were in Afghanistan eager to leave and that the administration is trying to help them through that process. Kylie Atwood, thanks so much for the reporting.

DEAN: Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg said this year alone, near collisions on airport runways are occurring at double the rate they used to. And he revealed that startling statistic this morning in front of the Senate committee.

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PETE BUTTIGIEG, U.S. TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY: We think that the uptick is partly related to the exceptionally fast surge in demand and the swift return to the skies faster than even the most optimistic scenarios that we heard a couple of years ago. We need to make sure, of course, that as that system comes back to that high level of demand, there is no negative safety impact to that.

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SANCHEZ: CNN's Pete Muntean joins us now with the latest. Pete, the FAA is laying out steps that air traffic controllers should take to mitigate risk. And they include the understanding among pilots and flight attendants of extraneous communication being a risk. But they don't explain what that means.

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: You know, it's so interesting, Boris because it -- communication is so key in preventing, and all of these issues really developing. They're known officially as runway incursions, and we see six of them now under investigation by the NTSB nationwide from Honolulu all the way to Boston, the most egregious one, JFK back in January. This is a really serious issue and it's something that's being taken very seriously by the Federal Aviation Administration held this safety summit last week. And after that, it's really laid out this two-pronged plan not only for pilots, reminding them to be extra vigilant about the procedures that take place on an airport to try and avoid these runway close calls, but also to air traffic controllers.

This five-point plan that the FAA says will include stepping up oversight by supervisors and air traffic control towers, also trying to get more air traffic controllers through the training pipeline. That's a huge issue because air traffic controllers, their top union says staffing is a really big problem. The FAA just released these numbers saying staffing is only at 54 percent at one of the main air traffic control facilities in New York that governs the three major airports there, only at 90 percent nationwide. So, we're going into the FAA reauthorization period where the FAA tries to get money from Congress. That will be a top priority for them.

The FAA even warning that delays and cancellations could go up this summer. And really peak because these problems are happening in air traffic control facilities. And it's telling airlines they may be scaled back a bit on the number of flights they scheduled at some of these really busy airports, Boris and Jessica.

DEAN: Well -- and I also want to ask you about a separate issue because we've learned a pilot flying a Southwest Airlines flight bound for Ohio needed medical attention not long after takeoff. And a passenger on board jumps in, they asked for -- well, I'll let you tell the rest of it. But it wasn't a doctor that came to the rescue.

MUNTEAN: Yes, a pilot. Is there a pilot on board was -- in essence the question here. And that was so critical because this pilot onboard this Southwest flight, there are two pilots up in the flight deck, apparently had some sort of medical issue. That's still a mystery right now. And this other pilot who was in the passenger cabin flying for a completely different airline minute, came into the flight deck called upon -- to work the radios to help this flight divert safely back to Las Vegas was in the air only about 27 minutes before it started to turn around.

Southwest Airlines thanking this off-duty pilot for coming in and helping out. Really pretty amazing though here it happens very, very rarely. And something that happened very very safely. This flight safely landed back in Las Vegas pretty well, all is well that ends well and it's really a case of the right place, right time.

DEAN: No kidding about that. What a story. All right, Pete Muntean, thank you so much. We appreciate it.

SANCHEZ: Still ahead in the NEWSROOM. Republican Governor Ron DeSantis is pressing ahead with more proposed restrictions on what he thinks should be taught in Florida's classrooms. Lessons on sexual orientation and gender identity now on the chopping block. We're going to talk to an expert about the implications.

DEAN: Plus, saved from the sewers. Several children in New York rescued after getting lost in a tunnel. Coming up. How a 911 dispatcher save the day?

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