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Lawmakers Grill TikTok CEO Over Chinese Privacy Concerns; Manhattan DA's Office Rejects House GOP's Inquiry For Case Docs; Uganda Passes Historically Harsh Anti-Gay Laws; Ukraine Official: We Will Go On Bakhmut Counteroffensive "Soon". Aired 3-3:30p ET
Aired March 23, 2023 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: It is the top of the hour. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm Boris SANCHEZ.
JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: Great to be with you, Boris. Hi, everyone. I'm Jessica Dean and we welcome you to CNN NEWSROOM.
At the top of the hour today, it may be one of the only things both sides of Congress can agree on right now, the TikTok media app - TikTok - and the social media app TikTok and the risks it poses for possible Chinese interference. Today a contentious hearing on Capitol Hill when the TikTok CEO, Shou Chew, went under oath and explained why the wildly popular app should not be banned in the U.S.
SANCHEZ: With more than 150 million users in the United States. The overall fear is that the Chinese government could use its national security laws to pressure TikTok's parent company ByteDance to hand over access to user data from people in the United States.
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REP. CATHY MCMORRIS RODGERS (R-WA): Your platform should be banned. I expect today you will say anything to avoid this outcome. We aren't buying it. In fact, when you celebrate the 150 million American users on TikTok, it emphasizes the urgency for Congress to act. That is 150 million Americans that CCP can collect sensitive information on.
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SANCHEZ: We're covering the story from several angles with CNN National Security Reporter Natasha Bertrand and CNN Chief Congressional Correspondent Manu Raju.
Natasha, first to you. Did the CEO, Chew, say anything that may have changed lawmakers' minds?
NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, he tried, Boris, but it is unclear and seems unlikely actually that lawmakers' minds were changed here, but the national security risks that they believe TikTok poses. But the bottom line, the argument that Chew made during his remarks to Congress is that TikTok has essentially been - were working on a project in order to firewall U.S. data off from its Chinese parent company, ByteDance.
And what that project is called is Project Texas, because apparently, what the company is trying to do is a route that U.S. data through company servers, hosted by Oracle, which is a company that is based in Texas. It is an American company and according to the CEO there, it would be overseen by American personnel.
So his argument is that this would allow the U.S. data that TikTok collects to essentially be routed through a purely American company on U.S. soil, and that the Chinese government would not have any access to it, though he argues that they never have in the first place. So here's a particularly contentious exchange between the TikTok CEO and a member of Congress on this issue.
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REP. BOB LATTA (R-OH): BOB LATTA: Yes or no, do any ByteDance employees in China, including engineers, currently have access to user - U.S. user data?
SHOU CHEW, CEO, TIKTOK: Today, all U.S. user data is stored by default in the Oracle Cloud infrastructure.
LATTA: The question - that's not the question ...
CHEW: And access to that is controlled by American personnel.
LATTA: The question is, do any ByteDance employees in China, including engineers, currently have access to US data?
CHEW: Congressman, I would appreciate - this is a complex topic. Today, all data is stored by default ...
LATTA: Yes or no? It's not that complex. Yes or no, do they have access to user data?
CHEW: We have after Project Texas is done, the answer is no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERTRAND: So Chew has also said that the Chinese government has never asked TikTok for any data and lawmakers have provided no evidence that the Chinese government itself has actually ever used TikTok to surveil Americans. But still lawmakers are calling any attempt by Chew to say that the Chinese government has no involvement in TikTok quote preposterous. And in fact, one lawmaker said that he does not believe that it is even technically possible to accomplish what TikTok says it will accomplish through this endeavor known as Project Texas.
DEAN: And Manu, let's go to you. I know you've been talking to Democrats and Republicans on the Hill today that you heard from House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, how are they reacting?
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I just spoke with Speaker McCarthy and he made his clearest indication yet that Congress is expected to move to try to ban this very popular social media app nationwide.
[15:05:02]
I asked him whether or not he supports legislation that would essentially give the administration power to ban TikTok. He said we don't necessarily need to wait for the administration, Congress can do it in itself. I said, so does that mean you support the idea of Congress moving ahead at banning TikTok. He said, yes. And then I asked him about the concern about not acting.
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REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): I think the hearing today (inaudible) part of it.
RAJU: Yes.
MCCARTHY: I think you see a bipartisan concern here with what's happening on TikTok especially what's happening to the data for Americans. I mean, it's - there's many different ramifications here so I think they could come together and let the committee's do their work and see what the product comes out (inaudible) gets done.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) ...
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RAJU: So he noted there is bipartisan concern that he would let the committees do their work. That means that it's still unclear exactly what proposal will come to the floor. There are several versions of legislation that lawmakers have proposed to essentially outlaw TikTok, some dealing with some specific privacy concerns, others that would give the executive branch new authority not just on TikTok but other social media platforms that could pose a national security threat or come from countries deemed as an adversary to the United States.
So there are some specifics that need to sort through, but McCarthy's signaled they're very, very clear that momentum is growing, bipartisan support to essentially eliminate this social media that is used by roughly 150 million American users monthly. But perhaps this could go away unless things change the administration has urged the sale of TikTok from this Chinese parent company. The Chinese government opposes that, so if that doesn't happen, expect Congress to act and on the Senate side, the Majority Leader Chuck Schumer today indicating he is open to this idea as well, guys.
SANCHEZ: It's so fascinating that a social media app is one of the rare things that will bring both parties together to do something on Capitol Hill. Manu and Natasha, thank you so much.
We have a quick programming note to share with you as well: TikTok - TikTok - "Is Time Up for TikTok?" Tune into CNN PRIMETIME tonight when Abby Phillip takes a look at the app's future and the calls to ban. "Is It Time Up for TikTok?" airs tonight at 9 pm right here on CNN. DEAN: Despite his predictions of his own arrest this week, signs point to no indictment this week for former President Trump.
SANCHEZ: The New York grand jury investigating his alleged role in a hush money scheme during his 2016 campaign is hitting a pause in this case.
CNN's Kara Scannell is outside the courthouse in Manhattan with the very latest. So Kara, when is the grand jury going to meet again?
KARA SCANNELL, CNN REPORTER: So Boris and Jessica, the grand jury is meeting today but they are not hearing any testimony related to the investigation into Trump's alleged role in the hush money payments. They will be back again on Monday and then they will hear testimony or evidence related to that investigation.
Now, sources tell us that prosecutors want to bring at least one more witness before the grand jury and that could occur on Monday. Other sources tell us that they are considering bringing Michael Cohen, the man at the center of the hush money payments back again before the grand jury. It seems like a lot of this is still fluid. They're still working through the evidence. Prosecutors are still weighing the case, as we all wait to see what decision Manhattan district attorney Alvin Bragg will make and whether he chooses to seek an indictment of former President Trump, Boris? Jessica?
DEAN: And Kara, the Manhattan DA, Bragg - Alvin Bragg that you're just talking about leading this investigation has been obviously very quiet about any indictment. But we did read some pretty strong words from his office today after this Republican call from the House GOP that he testified before Congress. Some GOP chairmen of committees have accused him of prosecutorial misconduct. Tell us about this letter.
SCANNELL: Yes. So Bragg's office really striking back to Congress saying to them, first of all, that they're a federal agency and this is the state, this is a local New York City prosecutor telling Congress that they really have no place interfering in this investigation. They've also are calling out the former president and saying that he put the lawmakers up to this based on reports and saying that they were doing this and it was not legitimate.
In the letter, they also write - the letter meaning to house letters allegation that the DA's office is pursuing a prosecution for political purposes is unfounded. And regardless, the proper forum for such a challenge is the courts of New York, which are equipped to consider and reviews such objection.
So basically saying that the house here just - should stay out of their business, that if they do decide to move forward with this case, that the place for Trump to fight back on this is in the courts and not using his allies on the Hill, Boris? Jessica?
SANCHEZ: Yes. That letter potentially a preview of the legal fight ahead of Congress decides to subpoena Alvin Bragg.
Kara Scannell live for Manhattan, thanks so much. [15:10:03]
DEAN: All right. Let's talk now about another case involving former President Donald Trump, this is a federal case.
He suffered a major court loss in this different criminal investigation. This is not won by a state, the Justice Department, though, looking into hundreds of classified documents that were found at the former president's home. Yesterday, an appeals court ruling Trump's attorney in this case, Evan Corcoran, must testify again before federal grand jury. Sources saying that's going to happen tomorrow.
Three appellate judges agree with that lower court's ruling, but the Justice Department has sufficient evidence to show Trump used his defense lawyer to advance a potential crime.
SANCHEZ: And it's still not exactly clear how that law may have been broken, but we do know that before the government papers were removed from Mar-A-Lago, Corcoran drafted a letter in June to federal authorities saying that all classified documents had been returned from President Trump. It was also signed by another attorney.
Let's get some legal analysis now with CNN Senior Legal Analyst, Elie Honig, a former federal and state prosecutor.
Elie, let's start with this development in the classified documents probe. Your understanding of Corcoran is testimony tomorrow, what a prosecutor is going to be looking for?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Boris, this is a big win by the Justice Department. They went to a judge and they argued we should be able to break through the traditional strongly held attorney client privilege, because of something called the crime fraud exception, prosecutors show to a judge's satisfaction not beyond a reasonable doubt by a lower standard, that these communications between Donald Trump and the lawyer, Evan Corcoran, were part of some sort of ongoing crime or fraud.
Now, I think it's fair to assume from this or to reason from this that they're looking at obstruction of justice. We know that in part because one of the bases for searching Mar-A-Lago in the first place, according to the court papers, was potential obstruction of justice.
And as you said, there was this affirmation that Trump's lawyers put together and gave to DOJ saying we've given you all the classified documents. Of course, that turned out to be untrue, because the search a couple of months later revealed that there were still over a hundred classified documents. So I think that's where DOJ is focusing, they will get to question the lawyer Corcoran tomorrow and he will have to answer those questions.
DEAN: And so Elie, let's stay with this federal case that we're talking about right now. Let's go to tomorrow, he's testified, what is the best outcome for the DOJ here? What will be the best outcome? What are the Trump attorneys hoping? Do they're actually still representing him, not the one that will be testifying?
HONIG: Right. Well, I think the most incriminating outcome, so I guess best in that sense for DOJ and worse for Donald Trump, is if Corcoran says Donald Trump was the one who told us that these documents had all been turned over and later on, we realized that was not true.
In other words, I think DOJ is trying to identify the source of the lie because this communication went from the client, Trump, over to the attorneys, who was Christina Bobb and Corcoran. And so somebody is knowingly lying there, and maybe other people were lied to. And so I think that's what DOJ is really trying to dig in on.
SANCHEZ: Elie, let's pivot to the Manhattan investigation into these alleged hush money payments that Donald Trump made to the adult film actress, Stormy Daniels. The sources close to the investigation are telling CNN that there's a possibility that they may get additional testimony, the grand jury, from someone they've already heard from. I'm wondering what you make of that.
HONIG: So this happens sometimes at trials what you call a rebuttal witness. In other words, the prosecution here has put all its evidence in front of the grand jury, then Trump sent in this lawyer, Robert Costello, who apparently did some damage, presumably to the testimony of Michael Cohen and so now the prosecution is trying to think how do we respond to this.
And Boris, the fact that this is happening at the grand jury level, the fact that prosecutors are trying to strategize on how they sort of salvage what damage Costello did is really a bad sign. Because the grand jury should be the easy part for prosecutors, you have a much lower burden of proof, you only have to prove your case by preponderance of the evidence, not beyond a reasonable doubt. You only need to win over a majority of the grand jurors as opposed to unanimous which you would need at trial.
So if you're having this much trouble in the grand jury phase as a prosecutor.
DEAN: That's such an interesting point. And I think it's worth pointing out as well, Elie, that you know Alvin Bragg, the District Attorney in this case. And obviously he's got a lot of pressure on him right now and is at the center of all of this. We also have some reporting that they're kind of taking a step back, they're regrouping, they're kind of taking a beat as they absorb kind of what's happened and unfolded over the last several days.
What do you think - if you're him and knowing him as you do, how is he surveying all of this and what should he be thinking about and considering right now?
HONIG: Yes, I have been critical of the merits of this case, based on what we know. I do know Alvin Bragg, I used to work with him as a federal prosecutor. I do respect his judgment.
[15:15:01] But again, I have been and will remain critical of what we believe to be the merits of this case. I think there's a couple of things going on here. First of all, perhaps he's just taking a breath and thinking about this. This is a monumental historic decision. And if he needs to take another three days or a week to think it through, that's probably worth it. It also could be, as Kara reported, that they're looking to bring another witness down.
And the final thing is I would want to absolutely minimize the time. If I had a date set when Donald Trump was going to come down to Manhattan and surrender, where I had to coordinate the security, I would want to absolutely minimize the time I between that and the unsealing of an indictment.
So if I was in Alvin Braggs position, I would look to indict on day one, whatever that is and then bring Donald Trump down on day two, because you don't want it you want as little time as possible in between those two things, in between the indictment and the actual in court appearance, because in my view, only things can go wrong in that interval.
DEAN: Right. The longer it goes on the more spectacle - the higher risk something can go wrong.
Elie Honig, always thanks for your expertise, we appreciate it.
HONIG: Thanks to both.
DEAN: Troubling developments out of Uganda where identifying as LGBTQ was already punishable by life in prison, but now it could be punishable by death. How the world is reacting to this historically harsh law, that's next.
SANCHEZ: Plus, Ukrainian commander says that Ukraine will go on the offensive in Bakhmut very soon as more allies are rushing in, in the fight against Russia. We'll be right back.
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[15:20:33]
SANCHEZ: Ugandan lawmakers just made history passing some of the world's harshest anti-gay laws.
DEAN: People who identify as LGBTQ plus could face punishment of up to 20 years in prison even death. CNN's Larry Madowo has the details.
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LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Joyous scenes in Uganda's parliament on Tuesday, after lawmakers passed a sweeping anti-LGBTQ bill.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In our country, we only have ... (END VIDEO CLIP)
MADOWO (voice over): Same sex relations were already illegal in the conservative East African country with convicts risking a life sentence. Now, legislators have taken it one step further.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Those in favor say "aye," to the contrary "nay."
ALL: Aye.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADOWO (voice over): Anyone who identifies as lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender or queer now faces up to 20 years in jail and the death penalty for "aggravated homosexuality, a broad term using the legislation to define same sex intercourse with children or disabled people rape or incest."
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible) order in the house.
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MADOWO (voice over): Supporting lawmakers saying the aim is to quote protect our Christian culture and traditional family values.
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ASUMAN BASALIRWA, UGANDAN LAWMAKER: What we have done really is for the people of Uganda, it is beyond us as individuals.
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MADOWO (voice over): And somewhat quite a flippant attitude towards the issue.
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CHARLES ONEN, UGANDAN LAWMAKER: There is nothing so sweet and so good for a man more than a woman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADOWO (voice over): Only a few lawmakers disagreed.
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RACHEL MAGOOLA, UGANDAN LAWMAKER: I do not agree with homosexuality imprisonment, but I don't agree with criminalizing it.
(END VIDEO CLIP) MADOWO (voice over): The United Nations called the law among the worst of its kind in the world and it's passing a deeply troubling development. Human rights campaigners in Uganda have condemned a move, calling it barbaric and unconstitutional.
Ugandan rights activists vowing to fight back. A human rights lawyer in Kampala told CNN that "this regressive and draconian law promote hatred and discrimination and institutionalizes homophobia."
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MADOWO (on camera): Homosexuality is illegal in more than 30 of Africa's 55 nations and Uganda's move is just the latest in a series of setbacks for LGBTQ plus rights here on the continent. The legislation now waits for the Ugandan president signature.
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YOWERI MUSEVENI, UGANDAN PRESIDENT: The homosexuals are deviations from normal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADOWO (voice over): And no one is expecting a surprise from him.
Larry Madowo, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DEAN: One of Ukraine's top generals says Russian forces in Bakhmut depleted and adds his soldiers will go on the offensive "very soon." Bakhmut has been the epicenter of some of the fiercest and bloodiest fighting since the war broke out.
SANCHEZ: Let's hear from an expert now with CNN Military Analyst, Col. Cedric Leighton.
Col. Leighton, thanks so much for being with us this afternoon.
The head of the Wagner mercenary group says that Russians now hold about 70 percent of Bakhmut. I'm wondering what you think Ukrainian counteroffensive could look like and how realistic it is that they could reclaim some of that territory.
COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, that's really interesting, Boris, and it's great to be with you and Jessica.
The big thing here when it comes to Bakhmut is that the way in which the Russians are controlling this territory, really leaves it open to a lot of moves by the Ukrainians in some localized areas. So they're moving in with some troops. They're coming in, they're trying to get a control of areas that are really basically a urban wasteland right now.
And when they do that, they are not really using the types of forces that would be required to hold the city for a long time. So as a result, the Ukrainians can come in and potentially take back the city although, as we can see with our own eyes it's not really a very hospitable place to say the least.
DEAN: And Colonel, Wagner boss, Yevgeny Prigozhin, has complained he's not getting enough help from the Russian military. Again, that's that mercenary group. He's got a rivalry with members of the MoD. What is this all tell you about Russia's internal politics?
LEIGHTON: Well, Jessica, they're in a mess. The internal politics Prigozhin versus the defense minister, Sergei Shoigu and the entire army, they really - it really shows that there is a real discord behind them.
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The one key thing that you want to have in a war is unity of command. And this really points out that the Russians have a divided command, which means that they are far less effective than they would otherwise be, couple that with all the logistical problems that they have, all the issues that they've had with recruitment, the training of their troops, the weaponry that they're using, and they have a serious problem on their hands. They can mount offensive operations, but they cannot sustain them is what we're learning.
SANCHEZ: Colonel, I want to get your thoughts on the new armaments on their way to Ukraine. Today Slovakia handed over four fighter jets, these old Soviet MiG-29s. Later this week, Spain is going to be sending its first shipment of modern battle tanks. What do you think these weapons will do in the battlefield? What role are they going to play?
LEIGHTON: So I think most importantly for the Ukrainians, the battle tanks will probably play a larger role than the fighters will just because the way in which forces have been employed in this war really favors the ground forces at the moment. However, the MiG-29s from Slovakia and then eventually from Poland as well, it can make a big difference because the Ukrainians know how to use these.
And once these airplanes are actually employed by the Ukrainians and they are used in a tactical scenarios such as perhaps Bakhmut, perhaps areas down south, they can have localized impacts that could turn the tide of battle in favor of the Ukrainians. And it's really what the doctor ordered when it comes to potential offensive operations that the Ukrainians might be mounting in the next few weeks or months.
DEAN: Right. It could be exactly the right time for that.
Colonel Cedric Leighton, thanks so much. We appreciate it.
SANCHEZ: Still ahead, a Colorado dentists now charged with first degree murder. Police say he was behind the "heinous, complex and calculated poisoning of his wife." What we learned at his first court hearing today next
