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Sources: Trump Facing 30 Plus Counts Related to Business Fraud; NYPD Ramping Up Security Ahead of Trump's Court Appearance; Many Republicans & Loyalists Rally Behind Trump After Indictment. Aired 3- 3:30p ET

Aired March 31, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We'll be back and we'll be with you every step of the way, so God bless you all and God bless our first responders. Thank you.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN HOST: There we heard the President reflecting on the 13 lives lost in the terrible tornadoes in Rolling Fork, Mississippi this week, reiterating his support federally for debris removal there and FEMA there also to help people in the community as they rebuild and as they recover, reminding them that they are not alone.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: It is the top of the hour and you are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Boris Sanchez.

GOLODRYGA: And I'm Bianna Golodryga.

Today, the Secret Service is meeting with the district attorney's court officers to discuss security logistics this - of the arraignment of the former president. Two Sources tell CNN that former President Trump is expected to be processed at 2:15 pm on Tuesday. His detail will be with him as he is fingerprinted and photographed from mug shots. At this point, the former president isn't expected to be handcuffed as he will be surrounded by armed federal agents for his protection.

SANCHEZ: Sources tell CNN that the indictment involves more than 30 counts related to business fraud. The New York grand jury has been investigating Trump's role in that alleged cover up, the $130,000 he made in a payment through his Attorney Michael Cohen to adult film star, Stormy Daniels during the 2016 campaign. Now that former attorney and fixer, Michael Cohen, has been a key witness in this case. He has this message for critics of the grand jury's decision to indict.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL COHEN, FMR. PERSONAL ATTORNEY FOR DONALD TRUMP: This notion of, oh, this is a weaker case than the January 6, I acknowledge that. January 6 was an insurrection but doesn't make this any less of a crime.

I always call this the Capone theory, the Al Capone theory. They couldn't get him on murder, extortion, racketeering, bootlegging, et cetera, they got him on tax evasion. If that crime done was enough for me to be charged, fined, convicted and sent to prison, why am I any different than Donald Trump? Oh, by the way, for Donald since we're talking about convicted felons, see on Tuesday, pal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Let's take you to that courthouse where Trump will turn himself in on Tuesday, CNN's Kara Scannell is there. Kara, what are we anticipating is going to happen that day?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN REPORTER: Well, I mean, Michael Cohen knows just a little bit more than what Donald Trump will be experiencing. But when the former president arrives here on Tuesday, he will surrender to the authorities here, to the district attorney's office and they will - then they will get a copy of the indictment once it is unsealed and that will give him and his attorneys their first look at what charges he's facing specifically, and what types of evidence the district attorney has included in that indictment, so they will understand the breadth of this case.

Now, our reporting is that this indictment will include more than 30 charges and sources tell us that they have been looking into among the charges, the falsification of business records, all relating to those payments of hush money payments, as well as the reimbursement of those payments to Michael Cohen.

Now, when - once Trump arrives here, as you said, it will be a high security environment. He will be processed, he will have a mug shot taken, be fingerprinted and then appear before the judge. And at that point, the judge will ask him if he's aware of these charges, ask them if he wants a reading of the indictment, and then ask him for a plea.

Now Donald Trump's attorneys have said that he will fight these charges. They're already teeing up various legal motions that they may make whether it has to do with the statute of limitations or the level of criminal intent that prosecutors would need to prove here. So they're already teeing up that they're going to take this head on.

The Trump attorneys have been aggressive in all of their litigation, this investigation, which really started back in 2019 had different parts of it that went all the way up to the Supreme Court twice. But once Donald Trump is arranged here, and we expect him to enter that not guilty plea, because he is not being charged with a violent felony, he will be allowed to leave.

Again, though, under the protection of the Secret Service. We do not expect this court hearing to last very long, and obviously they wouldn't want this to be an event that does drag out. And as you say, that the Donald Trump has been very vocal since he's learned of this indictment. He's begun attacking the judge that is overseeing this case, because this judge also oversaw the prosecution of The Trump Organization on those tax fraud charges last fall.

But again, this is just going to be an unprecedented event with a lot of security. And while this is an ordinary process, Donald Trump is of course an extraordinary defendant. Boris? Bianna? SANCHEZ: And Kara, a quick follow up, do we know if all of this is

going to play out on camera? Is this arraignment going to be public?

[15:05:05]

SCANNELL: Well - so all of this is still being worked out and what we're learning from sources within the court administration system, they're trying to figure out the best parameters. What they've done in the past is they will allow cameras lining the hallways. It sounds like they're going to continue or at least try to follow that same pathway.

So there will be cameras there that will catch Donald Trump walking down the hallway. Other of these high profile defendants, his former CFO, Allen Weisselberg, Steve Bannon, they've all taken that same walk sometimes. They've been handcuffs and then sometimes they allow for a pool, that just one photographer in the courtroom to catch those snapshots of Donald Trump's sitting behind the defense table, Boris?

GOLODRYGA: And as we noted, we don't expect to see handcuffs and we also don't expect to see the former president's mug shot as well.

Kara Scannell, thank you.

Well, let's go to where Trump is today and that is his Florida State, Mar-A-Lago. CNN's Kristen Holmes is there for us. And Kristen, even though the former president predicted he was going to be arrested last week, last Tuesday, a source says that he was caught off guard by yesterday's indictments. So how did all of this come down?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Boris and Bianna, that's right. So what we have learned and as my colleague, Elena Treen (ph) and I both reporting that we heard from sources but they were blindsided by the timing of this. So much so that advisors were essentially believing at least some of them that the charges might actually be dropped and this is, of course, because of those media reports that said that the grand jury was not going to take up this case before they went on hiatus. They thought that this meant, at least they had a month, but they might even have more time than that.

We heard specifically that the former president himself was shocked and that we heard confirmed by his lawyer, Joe Tacopina. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE TACOPINA, ATTORNEY FOR FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Despite all the scuttlebutt and rumors and whatnot, we believed and hope that rule of law would have prevailed, so he initially was shocked. After he got over that, he put a notch on his belt and he decided we have to fight now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: And Donald Trump and his team are at Mar-A-Lago. He has been meeting with advisors there. They are preparing for Tuesday. We know that he has been contacting allies on Capitol Hill talking about how he's going to fight this charge shoring up his support on Capitol Hill. We also know that he had dinner last night with Melania.

This is something that sources described to us as him being essentially in a good mood. He was talking to guests there. The reason why that's interesting is from so many sources we have heard throughout this process is that he has compartmentalized this event, so he might have been shocked, but he turned around and then started having dinner with his guests at Mar a Lago with his wife. So that team is still figuring all this out.

You heard Kara talking about the security assessment, talking about the media access there. That's all trickling down to the Trump team. They are trying to figure out their plans now for Tuesday, but a lot of this information is going to end up coming from the Secret Service when they finish that security assessment because as we continue to say this is completely unprecedented.

So this idea of having the regular security on top of having a Secret Service detail that is going to dictate a lot of what Trump does, including media access and optics.

SANCHEZ: Kristen Holmes reporting from West Palm Beach. Thank you, Kristen.

On that note of this being unprecedented, let's put some context around the historic news. In 1921, President Warren G. Harding was about to be charged in a bribery scandal. It was known as Teapot Dome, but he died in office before an indictment came down.

In 1974, President Nixon was destined to be charged during the Watergate scandal, but he of course resigned and then his successor President Gerald Ford, later pardoned him. Which brings us to today, The Washington Post writing this: "The expected prosecution of Trump shatters an unwritten American political norm and brings the United States more in line with dozens of other nations, including democracies such as South Korea, Brazil, France, Italy and Israel."

Joining us now to help put this in historical context is CNN Presidential Historian Tim Naftali. He is the former director of the Nixon Presidential Library.

Tim as always, great to see you. This is unprecedented.

TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: The indictment of a former American president, potentially the trial of a former American president.

NAFTALI: Well, Boris, the closest this country ever came to an indictment of a former president was actually in ninth in - it was in 2001 when President Clinton was facing the possibility of an indictment over perjury and the special prosecutor, Robert Ray, had to be persuaded and not to seek an indictment of the former president.

[15:10:05] And in the last full day of Bill Clinton's second term, his

representatives and the special prosecutor then called the independent counsel came to an agreement where Bill Clinton admitted to having been evasive and - under oath - evasive and unhelpful under oath (inaudible) to perjury.

But - so for us to actually experience this does represent, at least for many, a sense that we broken the norm that somehow a former president, because of the office that they once held is beyond the reach of the law. But under our law and our Constitution, it's never been the case.

So Donald Trump is actually experiencing a power that the founders expected us to use, but which we've been reluctant to use up to now.

SANCHEZ: And part of the reason that we've been reluctant to use it, for example, in the case of Richard Nixon is because of the politics of that gets messy. And for former President Ford, part of it was his desire to move the country forward after Watergate. Compare and contrast the two situations now. It doesn't seem like the country can move forward from Trump if he's obviously trying to run for another four years.

NAFTALI: Well, one of the key reasons why the special prosecutor in 1974, his name was Leon Jaworski, did not seek an indictment was he didn't think that Richard Nixon could get a fair trial because of the publicity surrounding the impeachment proceedings. The idea was that it'd be very hard to find a jury that hadn't already come up - had not already made up his mind about Richard Nixon.

This case involving Trump is a lot easier because the details are not known to most Americans. They may know a little bit about it, but the actual details of apparently a 20 - a 30 count indictment are not known. So it'll be a lot easier to find a fair a jury of his peers and so that particular issue does not - is not there for Alvin Bragg the way it was for Leon Jaworski, and arguably would have been for Robert Ray if he had sought to indict Bill Clinton.

SANCHEZ: Tim, we've heard from various legal experts, well-respected, who obviously as you noted, this is still a sealed indictment. We don't know all the details. But the experts that have connected the dots have speculated that this case has some weaknesses and it's not exactly a slam dunk.

So given that this is a very low level felony, if Trump gets convicted on it, if he goes to trial to begin with and some of the other major things he could be facing the investigation in the declassified documents, his involvement in January 6th, what's going on in Fulton County, Georgia. If this DA fails to get a conviction, what do you think that would do to the trust that Americans have in institutions like our justice system?

NAFTALI: Well, Boris, it's a great question and there is a feeling among many of President Trump's supporters that there was a conspiracy against him. If there had been some coordination of the indictments, putting the strongest one first, that would be evidence of a conspiracy. But the grand jurors of Georgia and New York and perhaps Washington, D.C. have to make up their own minds on their own timetables and they have to think about the law.

And I think it's a very - it's the strength of our system, that a group of ordinary citizens in New York City can indict a former president. If the President - the former president is found not guilty, that is a sign of the strength of our system.

The point is, the system should look at you as an ordinary citizen, and then you'll be judged on the evidence presented by the prosecutor. The issue shouldn't be don't bring a case if you can't win it. The issue should be do the grand jurors believe that a case - there's a probable cause for a commission of a crime. That's how our system works.

So let's not play politics. In other words, let's not say well, why didn't they go to Georgia? First of all, that's not how it works. These three grand juries have to decide on their own. That's how our system works. And if Donald Trump is found not guilty, that shows the system works, too.

The system isn't supposed to work only when it finds people guilty in an indictment. The system has to allow for indictments to occur when they're required, and reasonable, and for people to be found not guilty when the system finds that there's not enough evidence to convict a jury - to convince a jury. So there you go. That's what's at stake here.

[15:15:00]

Our system is being tested, but so far it looks strong.

SANCHEZ: Tim, unfortunately, we ran out of time for my dozens of questions about Teapot Dome, maybe fortunately for some of our viewers who are interested in the Harding administration, but we very much appreciate your perspective, Tim. thanks for the expertise.

NAFTALI: Thank you, Boris. My pleasure.

GOLODRYGA: Well, we're joined now by CNN's Brynn Gingras. She's outside the courthouse covering the increased security measures taken by the NYPD. Also with us, Renato Mariotti. He is former Federal Prosecutor and CNN Political Commentator; Errol Louis, he is a political anchor at Spectrum News. Welcome all of you.

So Brynn, let's start with you. What are we expecting from the New York Police? It is an unprecedented and huge test for security, not only obviously, for today, but specifically for Tuesday. As of today, we heard that they were all ordered to wear their uniforms.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and we've been seeing a presence here at the courthouse, Bianna. I can tell you security teams have been walking around this building here behind me at 100 Centre where the arraignment will happen on Tuesday, doing security measures. We actually just saw a mobile camera being installed. Of course, there are lights as well all around this building that light up at night to make sure that this area is well seen at all times.

And again, we're several days away from Tuesday, but these measures will stay intact. Inside the courtroom, I think Kara mentioned it, there - that floor where the arraignment will happen, well, it has restricted access and that's going to continue into Tuesday as well. That means only certain people can be on that floor at the moment.

We're also hearing when Tuesday comes, it's very possible they may stop, put to a halt all other cases that are happening at the time of the former president's arraignment to avoid any more foot traffic in the building. Just to get a sense, we're talking about a New York City courthouse kind of coming to a standstill when the president comes in to make that arraignment.

All these security measures continuing to have discussions between all the parties involved. We're talking NYPD, the FBI, the Secret Service, the Court Marshals here down at the courthouse. These conversations are fluid, they're ongoing.

Now, also I want to mention behind the scenes, of course, there's a lot that we don't know with intelligence officials looking into the chatter that's online, looking at social media, chat rooms, trying to get a sense if there's going to be mobilization of people that want to come to this area between now and Tuesday or even after and create some court - some sort of chaos, of course.

There's no credible threats right now, we're told by law enforcement, but that is why, as you mentioned, Bianna, the entire NYPD force is showing a presence in uniform today able to work overtime shifts go into next shift for - to work those extra shifts in case something should pop up, they're ready to mobilize, guys?

GOLODRYGA: All right. Brynn Gingras, thank you.

SANCHEZ: Yes, it is going to be a big day there. Yes, go ahead, Bianna.I

GOLODRYGA: We want to bring in the rest of our guests. Renato, let's start with you.

Everything clearly that this indictment is under seal, so this is all speculation at this point. But when you hear 30 charges related to business fraud, there's been a lot of anticipation for this moment and yet 30, to somebody sitting at home like that sounds like a lot. Can you break that down for us and what that could entail?

RENATO MARIOTTI, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Sure. So look how a case is charged is really something that is up to the discretion of the prosecutor. They - the prosecutor can charge cases where they can take a fraud scheme, for example, and charge multiple instances of payments, for example, as separate counts versus charging them as one count. There's also potential here that there's a - there are charges not only for let's say the Stormy Daniels payments, the hush money payments that are at the center of this, but also for Karen McDougal and also potential, let's say, conspiracy charges as well. So I think we have a lot of leeway here that's given to prosecutors in

terms of how they charged the case, which is why so many of us are holding our breath and waiting to see what the indictment looks like. One thing I'll just caution our viewers though, is the number of counts while can be difficult for the defense because they have to get a jury to check not guilty 30 times as opposed to five doesn't necessarily mean that a case is stronger or weaker.

SANCHEZ: And Errol, I'm curious to get your perspective on the pressure that is now facing DA, Alvin Bragg. It's not just on the details and the work that he's done to focus this case. It's also at the level of Congress where to top House Republicans want him to come and testify about the case that he's built.

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's very interesting, Boris, that the District Attorney chose to fight back by issuing today's letter. Long overdue by the way. There's been a lot of attempts, really outrageous attempts, in my opinion, to interfere with the operation of local law in the local courts.

[15:20:05]

I mean, a grand jury is just a group of citizens who are presented with information that a crime took place. It's not for Jim Jordan sitting in Washington or anybody else to try and interfere, get evidence, intimidate the prosecutor or otherwise tamper with the process. And so the letter was well worded and very, very timely reminding everybody that we've got a separation of powers here. And Congress as powerful as they may think they are, do not have the legal authority to come in and start meddling in a local case.

So thankfully, we're going to probably see a sort of - at least in the initial stages, a clean case in which we go through the regular procedures where a defendant comes in, and he'll be booked in fingerprinted, and we'll take what are called mug shots, front and side photos and will be read his rights and so forth and then we'll start to see the evidence. We'll unseal the indictment. We'll look at the evidence and we'll present that evidence in open court so that we'll all understand what is going on here.

The only other thing I would say though, Boris, is that this is at the tail end of a ton of evidence that The Trump Organization who have been found guilty repeatedly over and over again, I mean, this same Manhattan district attorney just got convictions, criminal convictions against The Trump Organization, two of the companies involved over tax fraud going back 15 years. It's not as if you know, this came out of nowhere and it is very much not just a campaign finance case, it's about a company already found guilty of certain kinds of criminal behavior, doing other kinds of criminal behavior involving how they keep their records, how they keep their ledgers what they attest, that they have and have spent and why they have spent it.

And you can't just go around making stuff up. We're going to really get to the bottom of all of this, but it's not the first time Donald Trump has faced these kinds of questions. GOLODRYGA: Yes. Renato, with regards to this specific case, it's worth

noting that the DOJ decided not to pursue it. Alvin Bragg's predecessor Cy Vance, decided not to pursue it. And Alvin Bragg recently also decided not to pursue it until he finally did. So does that make you question what specific new evidence he may have gotten hold up?

MARIOTTI: Yes, it does, Bianna. I have to say that this is the million dollar question for $64,000 question, You're as old as I am, remember that (ph). This is really the issue here. I mean, we - obviously, there were charges that Michael Cohen pled to that were federal charges related to federal election crimes, regarding these hush money payments.

Obviously while Trump was president, the DOJ has a policy that they don't charge a sitting president, but there has been reporting that the Southern District of New York, the federal prosecutors there did consider whether to bring charges after Trump left office. They decided against it primarily because of concerns about the credibility of Michael Cohen who, of course, has been convicted of fraud and of lying to Congress and has made a bit of a living since - or at least over the last couple of years criticizing the former president.

Now, obviously, these charges are different, right? These are falsification of business records related to those payments. We don't know all the details, but I have to say that there are serious questions about the legal theory here. And there are also questions about the sufficiency of the evidence and I think there's going to be a lot of scrutiny that's going to come once the indictment is released.

So I'm withholding judgment until I've read the indictment and I understand what the evidence is. But I will - I do think that if this turns out to be basically the same case that we've known about for years and packaged differently with state court charges, I do think there'll be a lot of questions and Alvin Bragg will have a difficult road ahead.

SANCHEZ: Errol, I am fascinated by the response from Republicans. We already talked about House Republicans going after Alvin Bragg but there are some key Republican senators that have not said anything at all about this indictment and at least one prominent Republican governor who's calling on Trump to step out of the presidential race.

LOUIS: Yes, it's interesting to see the reactions. The people who are, I think, recklessly going out there and jumping in front of cameras and demeaning the case and arguing that it's somehow politically motivated and without substance, they're really taking a chance because as I've mentioned, there's abundant evidence of wrongdoing within those Trump organizations.

Remember Trump University where they had to settle for $26 million after defrauding all kinds of customers. Remember that he's scheduled to go on to - The Trump Organization supposed to go on trial, including Donald Trump and his three eldest children in a civil case brought by the attorney general of New York State, that's supposed to go to trial in January around the time of the Iowa caucuses.

[15:25:04]

The state attorney general was seeking $250 million, a quarter billion dollars from The Trump Organization. So the idea that everything is pristine there and they never lie in their records and everything is going to be fine and this is politically motivated, I would advise any Republican or any other politician to jump out there and say that everything was hunky-dory in this world, because it has not been, it probably is not and the fact of this indictment suggests that there's more they're building on the existing cases that have been brought and in some cases one.

GOLODRYGA: Well, if anything is clear ...

SANCHEZ: We'll find out.

GOLODRYGA: ... this is, perhaps, the - sorry, Boris, I was just going to say this is the nail in the coffin I would imagine for Donald Trump's relationship with New York City. He left, he moved to became a resident in Florida, but I think this sort of signals the End of his history here in New York.

Renato Mariotti and Errol Louis, thank you.

Well, a pile of garbage, that's what one Republican congressman is calling this indictment. We'll have more reaction from Capitol Hill just ahead.