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Trump In New York Ahead Of Arraignment. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired April 03, 2023 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Everybody has done such incredible work on figuring out the choreography of this moment, from the security perspective, from the Trump legal team perspective. Our Kristin Holmes as well down in Florida. The one thing they can't plan for is what they are going to discover tomorrow that is actually in black and white, that is in that indictment.

And we saw the former president brought on a new, very high-powered lawyer today, very clearly kind of moving towards preparing for that unknown. But I think when you add that element in to the very historic nature is very unprecedented nature of this moment, you know, here is a lot of self assuredness that they like to project publicly within the Trump orbit, the former president and his team. And that may absolutely be the case for what's going to transpire over the course of the coming weeks and months.

But the reality is, they don't know. And for team in an operation that likes to be the ones kind of pulling the strings on everything, controlling the narrative, controlling how people see the pictures, what they see, how they see it. That has to be a somewhat unsettling moment, no matter how they feel, or how they attempt to project themselves over the course of the next 24 hours.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, no question before they got on the plane, one of the former president's advisers, Jason Miller, texted me that the president views this as a challenge he has to take on for the American people. That is the spin.

That is the messaging -- I should say -- very much that has been amplified by so many of Donald Trump supporters and also even by some skeptics in the Republican Party of Donald Trump. Because they feel like this is one of those, rally around the team and at this point the front runner of the Republican team. Not just -- not just talking about somebody who was president before, but is a candidate for president, to try to get there again.

And so what you just said, Phil, about the unknowns. What I just stated in terms of the messaging and the strategy that's the known. That's all they can do is say, you know, he's going to fight and we're doing this for the American people. Whatever that means. But they know well and good that everything that is going to be presented to them in the courtroom tomorrow is going to be not politics but a legal challenge that he has not had before.

Kaitlan back to you.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, and one thing I think it's important to note is as Trump is returning, he is no longer a resident of New York City. Certainly, obviously he was born and raised here. He now resides permanently and primarily in Florida. He was here last fall for a deposition that was in another investigation that he was dealing with when it came to his business dealings.

He's been back here a handful of times since then. But he has also returned for the first time since he has faced an indictment and facing criminal charges that adds to the significance of this visit. He is on that plane with a handful of the campaign aides who are going to try to help him -- as you were noting, Dana, there -- with the way to take at least a political advantage of this.

Of course, the ramifications of it are far from know. We won't know those for weeks or months of what those will actually look like. He's been talking to these aids. He's been on the phone with allies all weekend as he was playing rounds of golf and deciding how they could use this to his advantage. But it is still very real legal issues. The legal and political issues they sometimes conflate them, but they are certainly very different strategies here.

I want to bring in our CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig and CNN's David Chalian who are both here with me. David, obviously the significance of this moment is obvious. Everyone can see that Trump's plane is here. It is the first time since he has faced criminal charges. We've talked about the merits of the case. But just the idea and of itself. His attorney was saying yesterday that what they wanted to do tomorrow was to make it as painless and classy as possible. Those are the words Joe Tacopina used in his interview with Dana.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: You know who likes the word classy Donald J. Trump. You know, you see this native New Yorker, this boy from Queens, now landing in New York City, and it's hard not to think, you know, the images of this plane in the opening credits of the "Apprentice." The fact that Trump loved having his name emblazoned on the side for all to see who landed in LaGuardia when he was a New York resident.

But he doesn't just land now as the first ever former president or president to face an indictment, he also lands as the front runner for the Republican presidential nomination in 2024. And that's why you say it is both political and legal and of course, historic. But he's going to try every moment that he's not in that courtroom, Kaitlan, he's going to try to control the narrative that gets portrayed. And really try to frame this entire case in his terms of a political battle that he's fighting. Once he's inside that courtroom tomorrow, of course, he doesn't get to control that.

[15:35:00]

COLLINS: Elliot you can see there the staffers coming out of that plane. One thing I'll be watching also is, Trump has a habit of speaking on the plane. As he's been doing, you know, he's been going to some of these rallies. They do take reporters on the plane. We are told there is a reporter -- there are, you know, there's a pool

reporter on the plane with Trump. We'll see if he made any comments there. Because that is where he's often been speaking the most in a back and forth with reporters beyond interviews with friendly media there.

And those are the campaign aides who are working with Trump. Obviously, it's a smaller team than he's had previously, but that's who -- most of those are campaign staffers who came with him.

Michael Cohen is at the center of all of this as Trump's former attorney, his former fixer. Cyrus Vance was the former Manhattan district attorney now, obviously, that is Alvin Braggs job. He was saying yesterday that Cohen's credibility is more than what you've heard his critics argue in recent days.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So, this is all going to come down to corroboration. Prosecutors are very taken with corroboration because you never want to be in a position where you're asking a jury to just take the word of a convicted criminal at face value. It's not at all abnormal to base a case on the testimony of a person who's been convicted of crimes. We say to jury's that's the only way we can take you inside crimes.

So with Michael Cohen, it's all going to come down to, do the other witnesses back him up. Do the other documents back him up. Look, the cross examination of Michael Cohen, I think almost writes itself. He's a person who has been convicted of perjury of financial fraud, of tax fraud. He hates Donald Trump with the heat of 1,000 suns. He makes no secret about that.

And he has made prior inconsistent statements. In his past he has said there was nothing criminal here. On the other hand, the argument from prosecutors will be this is a person who has changed his life and turned himself around since Donald Trump -- since he broke from Donald Trump.

And bigger picture here, Kaitlan, it's really a surreal moment. It's the kind of thing that you talk about and hypothesize of how in law school what would ever happen if we had a president or former president charged with crimes. And now we're about to see it play out for real. I think it will be a test of our system. It will be a solemn and somber moment. But I do have faith in our system. I think our judicial system, our judges or prosecutors or defense lawyers, and our rules and procedures will stand up.

And what we'll see tomorrow is really a routine court appearance. Through it all it's a routine court appearance.

COLLINS: You know the new Trump attorney that they just added, it's -- we don't know exactly when they added this new attorney. But we -- it was reported today by Politico, then by CNN. That he has added a new attorney in his defense here in Manhattan. What does that say to you about how they're viewing this case internally?

HONIG: This tells me Donald Trump is taking this case very seriously as he should. Todd Blanche is the new attorney. He was a longtime federal prosecutor. We were colleagues together at the Southern District of New York. Todd is an exceptional prosecutor. He was in charge of the violent crime and gangs' unit here in Manhattan. He then went up to White Plains, where he was in charge of the home office there, which does every kind of crime. This is the kind of lawyer that you hire if you are taking it very, very seriously.

I also should note, Kaitlan, Todd Blanche and Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan DA are contemporaries at the Southern District of New York. We all -- all three of us were there at the same time. I was a year or so ahead of those guys. But they started essentially within six months or a year of one another. So, they know one another very, very well. That does not mean Alvin Bragg is going to do any favors for Todd Blanche. We have a way of running into one another, and we all play it straight. But it's going to mean he's somebody who has some sort of inherent credibility.

So I think it's a move that you make if you're getting ready to fight and take this thing to trial.

COLLINS: David, so much of this and what we're seeing right now is highly choreographed by the Trump team. I've been talking to people in his orbit ever since he posted that Saturday that he was going to be arrested a few days later. And they have been talking about making sure that when he is in front of the cameras, he doesn't look defeated.

That he is smiling. Because they know, you know, we may not have a camera in the courtroom tomorrow, but they know that every inch of this what you will see from the moment he gets off this plane here, will be used. Whether it's by his critics or by his campaign as footage to rally people around him.

And then Jason Miller, one of his campaign aides tweeted on the way here that they actually raised $7 million they claim since Thursday.

CHALIAN: Yes, in the first three days, 72 hours since the indictment news, $7 million. And I mean, (INAUDIBLE), Kaitlan, you must if you're on the list, you get a fundraising appeal almost every hour from the Trump campaign that points to this. You know, it's also choreographed by the Secret Service, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: I think we lost our mike for a moment, David. We'll check back on that and pick up with that. Of course, what we were noting is just how choreographed that this moment. This moment is, David -- I think they fixed your mike. It's good to go now. But yes, but it does speak to the political aspect of this. We don't actually know that it will politically benefit Trump. We know it's certainly helping right now with fundraising. There are still major questions, though of what it looks like.

[15:40:00]

CHALIAN: There's no doubt. I mean, imagine first of all, this may be just one indictment, and there are other investigations going on. If other indictments were to come, I just think it is impossible for us to know how this will play out either in the nomination fight or if he is the nominee. I think we could pretty much say this kind of -- this kind of event is not going to bring voters to him that have already drifted away from him.

But just waiting for him to come out here. You mentioned trying to get into Donald Trump's mindset and what's really going on in his head is something, you know, it's not a is not a skill anyone has. But what must this nearly 77-year-old man be thinking as he returns to his home in a new context that is -- that no president has ever faced before.

COLLINS: Certainly, a moment where he -- I mean, he's going to be going into the Manhattan criminal courts building tomorrow for the first time to face an arraignment.

Dana and Phil, obviously, the historical significance of this is notable. There are still big questions. What actually the implications of this are and what this looks like going forward. But as we wait for Trump to exit his plane, come here to Trump Tower where we are in New York. There are many questions facing even in his own legal team. Very good.

BASH: So many questions so many unanswered questions. But let's take a moment and talk about the moment that we are at. And Gloria Borger, let's start with you. Your thoughts as we as we watch the -- what is the beginning of at least 24 hours of something that we haven't seen before, not ever, ever.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, who you're going to see walking down these steps is probably one of the most famous people in the world, and he is a former president, a presidential candidate, and now he's a defendant. We haven't seen that. It's hard to kind of process that. I think as you were pointing out, Dana, before that Donald Trump is somebody who's probably tried to avoid his day in court for a very long time.

BASH: Decades.

BORGER: Decades. And now you know you have this man who is saying to people who support him, you know I am your retribution. And he is going to make his grievance their grievance. And I think we're going to see that play out over and over again, and we'll see a play out in court with his attorney.

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's a moment that he's as you said, try to avoid. It's also a moment that the country has tried to avoid for a very long time. Whenever it's gotten to the point where a president may encounter this kind of interaction with the -- with the legal system, the U.S. has kind of backed away from the brink.

So, it really is a remarkable moment and that respect. Collectively, I think politically, this country had said we don't want to go there, and here we are, and it might have been unavoidable because of the sheer number of investigations against him at this point.

MATTINGLY: Yes, I want to bring in Sara Murray. Primarily because you covered his campaign from the beginning days back in 2015, and you're covering investigations now, that is an amazing amount of very good reporting on this individual. His lead up to his presidency, his presidency. The investigations that have come since. What do you think when you see what we're watching right now beyond they have a lot of luggage.

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: They obviously have. They did not pack light for this journey. No, I mean, I think what you've seen is the shield of the presidency fall away from Donald Trump. I mean when you talk about how long he has tried to avoid this. You know, when he was in office as the president, he was able to say, I'm the president of the United States. You know, all of these silly investigations, you can't bring charges against me. You can't be dragging me into court. Essentially, I have better things to do.

And he no longer has that defense available to him. And I think you know one of the things I wonder watching this is how many more times we can see something like this play out when it comes to Donald Trump. We don't know. And his legal team doesn't know if this could be the first of potentially multiple indictments.

I mean, that's one of the things they worry about. When you talk to them, they ask you just as much as you say, what are you hearing? They say, you know what are what are you hearing? What are you hearing about Georgia? What are you hearing about the Mar-a-Lago documents probe? What are you hearing about the January 6th investigation? Because they know that those are real legal threats.

BASH: And as we talk about the legal threats, Elliot, I want you to talk about -- there he is. Let's just take a moment and watch.

So, there he is, Donald Trump. The first former president ever to have to come anywhere to face a day in court.

[15:45:00]

I think what was notable right there, and we're going to probably see him several more times before he gives his speech tomorrow night. But we were actually talking before whether we would see the fist bump. Whether we would see the thumbs up. And we didn't see any of that. And it's, Sara, -- forgive me, Sara, I just want to go to you on that because you've spent many, many hours thousands of hours covering him since 2015. What does that tell you, that body language?

MURRAY: I think it was much more resigned than what we expect the -- again he has a lot of opportunities to appear defiant later today, tomorrow when he makes, you know, remarks tomorrow evening at Mar-a- Lago. But you know, it is sort of a pretty resigned march down the stairs into his car. No Trump hat. You know, we're used to seeing sort of his campaign swag as well as the swagger and that's not worth seeing right now.

BASH: And I started to say about the fact that as we were preparing for this moment, I've just -- as many other people have been doing -- maybe most people aren't as nerdy as I am. But going back and looking at not just the Constitution, but the way people have interpreted the Constitution when it comes to legal jeopardy for a president. And correct me if I'm wrong, but when I when a person is in the White

House, is president. The Justice Department interprets this, and most people interpret this as somebody who is immune from typical criminal prosecution. But that the founders explicitly wanted a former president to be treated like a regular citizen.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: And moreover, the founders in crafting the Constitution put very few rules or restrictions on who can be president. You've just got to be 35 years old and you have to be a natural born citizen of the United States.

BASH: It doesn't have to be a he.

WILLIAMS: Well, pardon me. And it's very -- thank you for correcting me on that. He or she needs to be 35 years old or a -- and natural born citizen of the United States. There's nothing in the Constitution about someone who has been charged with a crime or someone who has been convicted of a crime being barred from serving or running for president of the United States.

Now, if you remember former President Trump and viewers should remember the former President Trump -- and viewers will remember former President Trump was impeached twice and the United States Senate could have in that process barred him from running for future office. Now they voted against that and did not do so. That would have been the way to prevent someone from running for office or running for the presidency again.

But you're right. There's very few limitations or restrictions on who gets to be president, and he's a candidate now. He'll be a candidate tomorrow after he's indicted and will be a candidate, presumably, throughout the rest --

CORNISH: And to underscore your point, it was always a courtesy -- the post term prosecutorial immunity. It's not baked anywhere that says you're free from any kind of scrutiny. And you -- I think it's really saying something that this former president reached this point where that courtesy in a sense has been rescinded by the legal community.

BORGER: There's one other thing that struck me just watching him go down the steps is thinking back to the escalator he went down with Melania. And the family was not there. Melania was not there. He looked like such a solitary, somber figure there, which we're not used to.

CORNISH: Right. In a way that's what the press conferences for, right.

BORGER: That's right. But I think he understood that moment very well. Because it needed to be somber.

WILLIAMS: You know, I've been in court a bunch over the years and it's just so serious and solemn and we the public on account of some of these questions about cameras in the courtroom, and so on. Most of the public don't really have a sense as to what happens in a courtroom or how courts play out. When someone is led into a court and has to look the judge in the eye

and say, sir or ma'am, I believe I am not guilty of this offense, and in a year you're going to bring me to trial in front of 12 randomly picked citizens of this jurisdiction and in judgment of them. It is a serious, somber, solemn moment. You feel it in your bones. It's very serious and we saw and perhaps some of that there today.

MATTINGLY: There's no question about that. We have a lot more to watch. A lot more to weigh in on. Right now, you're looking at former President Trump and his motorcade on their way to Trump Tower. The former president obviously is in New York, landed at LaGuardia Airport in order to face the new reality for a former president. A former president that has been indicted and we'll have to face criminal charges.

We have a lot more as we continue to watch this play out, stay with us.

[15:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: And welcome back. I am Kaitlan Collins. We are broadcasting live outside of Trump Tower. Because the former president has just landed here in New York and as you can see now on your screen, his motorcade is making their way to Trump Tower where Trump will spend the night tonight before he arrives at a Manhattan courthouse tomorrow for his arraignment.

That is where he will go before a judge the indictment against him will be unsealed. We're expecting it to be some 30 counts, but the specifics remain to be seen. So, David Chalian and Elie Honig are both here with me. Elie, one big thing we're also still waiting to see is whether or not cameras will be in that courtroom tomorrow.

[15:55:00]

We know it's expected to be a very short proceeding. Everyone has said 10 minutes maybe. We have just learned the judge is going to decide tonight whether or not a camera can be in the courtroom. What are the arguments on both sides for having them and for not having them.

HONIG: So first of all, normally, cameras are not allowed in New York State courtrooms. However, the law in New York does say it's up to the judge. The judge has discretion. The arguments, yes they consider on the one hand are, are there overarching transparency concerns? Is the public interested in this? I mean, this is the ultimate example of that.

On the other hand, the judge does have to, one, maintain decorum and make sure that things don't get out of control. I'm not sure how cameras might do that. But on the other hand, he has to think about, am I interfering here with the defendant? And here the defendant is Donald J. Trump with his presumption of innocence. Will this create an image that may be harmful to him? So, the judge has to wait those factors. There's no science to it. One

outcome that I think is possible here. The judge may sort of try to thread the needle and allow an audio feed of some sort so that we can all follow along without cameras to avoid that potentially damaging visual of Donald Trump standing at the defendant's table.

COLLINS: And I want to let viewers know Trump is about 20 minutes away from Trump Tower. Of course, he is driving through traffic there. He is on the Grand Central Parkway on his way here to where we are outside of Trump Tower. There is a few dozen protesters here, but certainly maybe not the same that the president was hoping for as he was urging people to protest once he had gotten more details on his pending indictment.

David Chalian, I'm still struck by the fact that, you know, we're talking about Trump. This is a historic moment. Biden -- President Biden we should note is in Minnesota right now talking about infrastructure and semiconductor chips. He has stayed very quiet on this intentionally so.

CHALIAN: No doubt about it. He has been asked multiple times and just refuses to comment on them. When you talk to people in the White House, Kaitlan, they're pretty pleased with the contrast between the two right now. President Biden, they want to show him on the job. He'll get lots of local press attention, if not national attention, which is focused on Donald Trump right now. Versus, you know the indicted former president coming now for his arraignment tomorrow and returning to New York.

That's a contrast they like and any comment Joe Biden would make on this -- never mind that's it's an ongoing legal process, and the president tries not to do that. Would just distract from this display of the difference.

COLLINS: And, obviously, we will hear from Trump. We don't know whether or not we'll hear from him in New York. His aides and said he would not likely. It would not be until he's on the ground in Mar-a- Lago tomorrow night. What he's been saying though on social media, he's been attacking the judge who is going to appear before tomorrow. He has been criticizing the District Attorney, Alvin Bragg here. How does that factor into the judge when Trump is before him tomorrow?

HONIG: Well, the judge should pay no attention to that whatsoever. The judge -- and by all reputation, this judge is straightforward and focused and will not hold it against Donald Trump. But at a certain point if the rhetoric gets to excessive or too dangerous, there does come a point where the judge can issue what we call a gag order. Which is an official order of the court --

COLLINS: Can they do that since he is running for office? Because I've asked some of the legal minds in Trump's world about that, and they've seemed skeptical.

HONIG: It's a great point, and I think it's yet another reason to be skeptical. The first one is the First Amendment as a whole. All this is why it's very, very rare for judges to issue gag orders in any case. Because people generally have the right to speak. They have the right to criticized courts and judges. On -- and here that would be further exacerbated because Donald Trump is a candidate for president.

And you know, it's totally in keeping with the way we saw Donald Trump as president, openly commenting on pending cases, on prosecutions. I hope people understand just how out of the norm that is. Historically presidents, Republican and Democrats alike have taken the exact view that Joe Biden is taking now, which is I don't talk about things like that. That's not for me, that's for our courts. That's for our prosecutors.

COLLINS: And I just want to note, Trump is on the RFK Bridge. He just crossed over it. He is approaching Manhattan. That is his motorcade there of the former president. And as Elie was noting there, that's comes as he has been making those attacks on the judge saying that he believes that he hated him.

When I pressed Trump's attorney on that, not in this case, but one of his other attorneys on Friday night he actually seemed to argue that yes, they do believe Judge Merchan is tough, but they believed it would be fair. Which was I thought notable how his legal team has distanced themselves. I think it speaks to how the legal team has been handling this. How the political team has been handling all of this.

Of course, this is a historic moment that you're watching live as for President Trump is making his way in that motorcade into Manhattan, where he will arrive at Trump Tower and spend a few hours before he does go before a judge to be arraigned tomorrow in that case. The first former or sitting president to ever face criminal charges.

[16:00:00]

And Trump is going to be in that courtroom before a judge. We'll see what the judge decides. We have not seen the indictment. Those details remain to be seen. But also remains to be seen if there will be a camera in this courtroom. That is something the media has advocated for it. We should note, trump's team has said they opposed that.

I want to turn over to Jake Tapper on "THE LEAD" for our continuing coverage of Trump's arrival here in New York, Jake.