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Pence Won't Appeal Judge's Decision Requiring Him To Testify About Trump's Actions Leading Up To January 6; Ex-Trump Tower Doorman Shocked He Was Mentions In Court Documents; Tennessee Lawmakers Who Participated In Gun Reform Rally Face Expulsion; Judge: Dominion Can Force Murdochs To Testify At Fox Defamation Trial. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired April 05, 2023 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

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ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: And we're continuing to follow the breaking news that we brought you at the hour.

Former Vice President Mike Pence we have learned, will not appeal a judge's decision that requires him to testify to the grand jury about Trump's actions leading up to the January 6th insurrection.

[15:35:00]

As for when that testimony could happen, we do not yet have a date for that grand jury appearance.

GOLODRYGA: Back with us is Norm Eisen. He is a CNN legal analyst and was the House Judiciary special counsel in Trump's first impeachment trial. Norm, what is your reaction to this decision not to appeal this ruling by the judge. And how soon do you think we could actually hear or find out that he went to speak before the grand jury?

NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think the judge's ruling was correct. So I welcome the former vice president's decision not to appeal it. The judge made clear -- although we don't have the actual ruling, it's under seal. But based on CNN's reporting, the judge made a distinction when it comes to the vice president. Everything before January 6th when he was acting in his vice presidential role as part of the executive branch, not protected by speech and debate.

Some January 6th conduct, for example, when the vice president was acting as the president of the Senate presiding over the January 6th meeting of Congress that is covered by speech or debate protections. Which say in the Constitution, you can't question a participant in Congress for any speech or debate on the floor in Congress.

So it's a good decision, and I think Pence saw that it was a good decision. He got some protection, and now he's going to appear. As for when, nobody knows.

HILL: Nobody knows. But, boy, wouldn't we love to know? So, as we wait for that one of the things that stood out to me in the statement that we got from a spokesperson for the former vice president. He notes that he has sworn oath to support and defend the Constitution and his claim that the -- and hear the words that stood out to me, Norm

The, quote, Biden special counsels unprecedented subpoena. The fact that the former vice president in -- as Bianna and I were discussing -- what feels like fairly Trumpian language. Call this the Biden special counsel. Obviously words are chosen for a reason. Important to note. This is actually not the current president's special counsel.

EISEN: No, it's not. It's a far cry from that political jab that is beneath the dignity of Vice President Pence. It was such a hero on January 6th, but it's a far cry from that to the kind of flamboyant Trumpian and dangerous rhetoric that we saw last night in the Mar-a- Lago remarks. Still, this represents the rule of law. I wish the vice president hadn't said that. I wish Mr. Pence hadn't resisted this subpoena.

I will say in terms of timing, Jack Smith has been moving extremely quickly on both of his cases, the Mar-a-Lago documents case, the January 6th case. So, it certainly could be soon.

GOLODRYGA: And he's been getting a lot of positive rulings and in his favor as well. Norm, is there any legal avenue that former president Trump can take or attempt to take now to potentially sort of last- minute emergency way block the former vice president from testifying now that he's agreed to.

EISEN: The prospects of doing that are remote. Whatever the debate about the vice president's protection under this speech or debate clause of the Constitution that he can't be questioned when he's for example, sitting in the chair as the president of the Senate, presiding officer.

Donald Trump has no such protection. So I don't think Donald Trump has standing -- we call it -- to raise these claims. I suppose he could try a last minute executive privilege claim just as a desperate, stalling tactic. He's lost all of those. I don't know, those claims may have been waived already because they weren't raised sooner.

We're a little handicapped and knowing the contours because we don't have these grand jury related rulings. They're under seal. But we do know this. Donald Trump doesn't have a legal leg to stand on. So if he tries something at this point, he's doomed to fail.

HILL: Norm Eisen appreciate you joining us. Thank you.

GOLODRYGA: Well Donald Trump's next court appearance in his federal felony criminal trial is not until December 4th.

HILL: Meantime, the former doorman at Trump Tower, who was mentioned in the unsealed charging documents, is now speaking out for the first time, saying he was in complete shock to learn that he was actually cited in the case. CNN's Kara Scannell is joining us now with more on this. What else is he saying, Kara?

[15:40:00] KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so our colleague MJ Lee spoke to the former doorman of Trump World Tower who was included in the statement of facts here. And he told her that he was in complete shock by his inclusion in this and that he was never contacted by the district attorney's office. so, how they're not required to do that.

And they used him as an example of a pattern to say that the former president was involved in this so-called catch and kill deals to stop negative stories from going public before the 2016 presidential election. And the way that they use this here, is that the "National Enquirer." who was part of, you know, run by David Pecker at the time, Donald Trump's longtime friend. They say that he paid this doorman. His company paid the doorman $30,000 so he wouldn't go public with an allegation that he knew that Trump had fathered a child with a former housekeeper. Now CNN has never verified that allegation to be true. But in order to stop it from going public AMI paid the doorman $30,000.

And prosecutors are saying that's one of several payments that they made, including the one to the former playboy model, Karen McDougal, who story they bought and she never went public with her allegation of a long-time affair with the former president.

And also, of course, the Stormy Daniels payment. That was the $130,000 payment that Michael Cohen had facilitated to Stormy Daniels. And that's really the heart of this case because the 34 charges are focused on the false financial -- or the false business records that were involved in the reimbursement of those payments through checks and faulty invoices to Michael Cohen.

GOLODRYGA: All right, Kara Scannell, bringing us this latest development. Thank you.

HILL: Three Tennessee lawmakers are now facing expulsion from the other side of the aisle. Why? Because they participated in a protest to end gun violence. Stay tuned for those details.

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CROWD (chants): The people united will never be divided. The people united will never be divided.

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HILL: In Tennessee, Republican state lawmakers are now calling for the expulsion of three Democratic state legislators who participated in gun reform protests at the state capital this week. Now the protests, of course, coming in the wake of that deadly school shooting in Nashville.

GOLODRYGA: A vote on the expulsion has been called for tomorrow, with Republicans claiming the three lawmakers engaged in, quote, disorderly behavior. Jake Tapper joins us now. And Jake, this is quite controversial. I

know you're going to speak with one of the Democrats who faces expulsion, and that's Representative Justin Pearson.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR, THE LEAD: That's right. State Representative Pearson was just elected this year. He's 28 years old. He represents parts of Memphis. And look, I mean, this was a moment of one could say civil disobedience. It certainly was disruptive. I would not call it violent in any way, shape or form. But the three Democratic state representatives, you know, joined protesters and said, no action, no peace.

At that point, the House Speaker Cameron Sexton, had them removed by state troopers. On Monday, they were stripped of their committee assignments. And then tomorrow there will be a vote on whether or not they should be stripped and expelled from the State House of Representatives. The speaker compared their actions -- believe it or not -- to the violence, the deadly violence we saw in January 6th.

Saying, quote, what they did today was equivalent, at least equivalent, maybe worse, depending on how you look at it, doing an insurrection at the Capitol.

And obviously, one can have opinions about what happened at the Tennessee State House. But it bears absolutely no resemblance to what happened on January 6th.

HILL: No, it certainly doesn't. I think it raises a lot of questions for people too, in terms of, was it a disturbance, where they're also free speech rights involved? I know part of this is tied to that state's constitution as well. Jake, really fascinating. I'm looking call Republican forward to that interview. Thank you.

TAPPER: Thanks so much, guys, good to see you.

HILL: And of course, you can catch that interview on "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER," which starts right here at the top of the hour.

GOLODRYGA: Well, new today a judge ruled that Dominion can force the Murdochs to testify in the defamation trial against Fox News. We'll have the latest details ahead.

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GOLODRYGA: Well, this just in. A judge has ruled that Dominion Voter Systems can force Fox executives Rupert and Lachlan Murdoch to testify on the witness stand in the defamation lawsuit that's set to start this month.

HILL: CNN senior media reporter Oliver Darcy joining us now and monitoring today's hearing. So, what -- what more has transpired at that point? That's a pretty big development.

OLIVER DARCY, CNN SENIOR MEDIA REPORTER: Yes, and it's something we expected. Fox, however, did not want Rupert and Lachlan Murdoch to testify at this at this trial that's set to start just really next week with jury selection. But the judge was never really buying the excuses. And today basically said, you know, if Dominion wants Rupert and Lachlan Murdoch to testify, which they do, he's not going to stop it, and he's going to compel their testimony.

And so I think we can say with a pretty good degree of certainty at this point that they are going to be forced to take the stand in this trial unless there is a last-minute settlement between now and really later this month when it starts.

GOLODRYGA: And aside from the Murdochs, we could see some prominent executives and anchors take the stand as well. Fox says that they're prepared to have them testify. Who can we expect to see?

DARCY: It's going to be a very high wattage trial. You're going to have some of the marquee stars over at Fox take the stand. It seems like Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity, Maria Bartiromo, some of the top names over at Fox. The network is saying that they're ready to allow them to take the stand in this trial. And so, it's going to be really quite something.

Because they're going to have Dominion cross examining these people, and they're going to ask about what they thought about Trump's election lies. And we know from their private messages that most of these people did not believe them. They really trashed them behind the scenes. But the network allowed them to take hold. And it's going to be very uncomfortable to say the least for Fox News over the next -- over the 5 to 6 weeks this is in trial.

GOLODRYGA: When is it going to begin?

DARCY: Its -- so jury selection starts on Thursday -- next Thursday. And then the trial is set to start April 17th.

[15:55:00] And I should note, it's always possible, a lot of lawyers expected that this settles somehow before we get to the April 17th trial date. But it hasn't yet.

HILL: And you and I have talked about this for a long time. Every time I feel like you're on we say, are they going to settle? Are they not? At this point is there any indication or any reason -- it seems like Dominion wants nothing more than for this to go to trial.

DARCY: Yes, I mean, there was so -- they -- I think fox was throwing a few hail Mary's maybe. And so, there was a motion for summary judgment. Basically, Fox asked the judge to declare them the winner before trial. The judge said no.

And so, the last, you know, real event before a trial is jury selection. So maybe they think they can get some favorable jurors on the trial -- on the, you know, for the trial --

HILL: Maybe.

DARCY: -- but hard to see.

GOLODRYGA: It's fascinating. Oliver, thank you.

You know what else is fascinating.

HILL: What's that?

GOLODRYGA: Having spent these two hours with my good friend Erica Hill.

HILL: We're going to do it again next week the two of us, but for now, let's move on to the "LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER."