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GOP-Led Tennessee House Expels Two Black Dems Over Gun Reform Protest; Dueling Rulings On Access To Medication Abortion Pill In United States; San Fran Police Search For Clues After Fatal Stabbing Of Tech Founder; Russian Media: WSJ Reporter Formally Charged With Espionage; House GOP Seeks Testimony From Senior Counsel To Manhattan; Trump, Allies Move To Discredit DA And Judge Overseeing Case; Cost Of Labor, Staff Shortages & Abortion Laws Leading To Closures. Aired 12- 1p ET

Aired April 08, 2023 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:00:57]

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST (on camera): Hello again, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me in New York. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

And we begin this hour with a formal expulsion of two black state Democrats from Tennessee's House of Representatives.

The expulsions coming a week after they led a gun reform protests from the House floor in response to a school shooting that killed six, including three children in Nashville.

Justin Jones and Justin Pearson were also joined in that protest by their colleague Representative Gloria Johnson. You see them all there, holding hands raising their fists.

Vice President Harris met privately with the so-called Tennessee Three on Friday. She was in Nashville to advocate for stricter gun reform.

CNN correspondent Isabel Rosales joining me now with more on this. Isabel, what are we learning about the expulsions and what's next?

ISABEL ROSALES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Good afternoon to you, Fred.

Yes, we're hearing from the former representative Justin Jones, and Justin Pearson, and current Representative Gloria Johnson, who have really decried the actions of the Republican colleagues, calling it vindictive, oppressive, and racially motivated.

Of course, Pearson and, and Jones, they are young black men. They were the ones that were expelled, while Gloria Johnson, who survived the vote is a white woman.

Here is what Jones had to say about the expulsion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JUSTIN JONES, EXPELLED TENNESSEE STATE REPRESENTATIVE: I think what happened was a travesty of democracy because it -- they expelled the two youngest black lawmakers, which is no coincidence from the Tennessee legislature.

Because we are outspoken, because we fight for our district. They retaliated not because of that one incidence of us going to the weld and joining those young people protesting gun violence, but because they got tired and did not feel like young black men have a right to be at the same diocese them.

They felt like young black men don't have the right to sit in the chamber with them. They don't see us as equal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROSALES: Yes. So, per the Tennessee constitution, a special election has to happen. And that is because of the period of time to the general election is over a year away. So, in this gap between up until that time, they're the legislative body of accounting for where that open seat resides, they're able to elect an interim successor.

So, right now what we're really seeing is local lawmakers in the districts of Pearson, and Jones really focusing on filling in those vacancies, and figuring out the next steps, which, by the way, could include actually sending Pearson and Jones back to the House chamber.

So, looking ahead on Monday, that is a major day in Nashville because Metropolitan Council, they will vote to reappoint Jones. And there's sort of two votes going on here. They want to nominate Jones, but al so suspend the rules that prohibit them from nominating and appointing on the same day.

If they get enough of those votes, it is a possibility. I'm hearing from Jeff Syracuse, a council member to send Jones back to the House chamber by its meeting time at -- in the 5:00 Central hour. Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right. And then, Isabel, you know, is it possible that if they are reappointed, that potentially, they could face expulsion again?

ROSALES: Well, Fred, according to the state constitution, there is a sort of double jeopardy role at play here. They cannot be expelled for the same behavior twice.

We also have this quick statement from the Tennessee House Republican caucus saying that if Jones and Pearson are reelected, that they hope, "they will act as the 1000s who have come before them, with respect for our institution, their fellow colleagues, and the seat that they hold." Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right. Isabel Rosales, thank you so much.

ROSALES: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: So, after what we saw in Tennessee this week, how our community leaders responding? I want to bring in three women leaders of color, who helped elect the so-called Tennessee Three.

Lisa Sherman Luna, executive director for a TIRRC Votes, which stands for Tennessee Immigrant and Refugee Rights Coalition Votes.

[12:05:00]

Tequila Johnson, executive director for the Equity Alliance Fund. And Tikeila Rucker, political organizer for Memphis for All.

Good to see all of you, ladies. So this --

(CROSSTALK)

LISA SHERMAN LUNA, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, TENNESSEE IMMIGRANT AND REFUGEE RIGHTS COALITION VOTES: Thank you so much for having us.

WHITFIELD: Wonderful. I'm glad you could be with us.

So, Lisa, I want to begin with you. Because, you know, I wonder what did you feel as the expulsion was taking place?

LUNA: You know, both -- all three of us, actually, were in the rotunda that day. What -- we woke up at 7:00 a.m., thinking we'd be back before 2:00, and it was 9:00 p.m. before we left the Capitol.

It was both enraging, but also, incredibly inspiring to see so many Tennesseans fighting for democracy, fighting for gun reform, and really just the energy that this has led to in our movement here in Tennessee.

WHITFIELD: OK. To Tequila Johnson, for you. I mean, there were a lot of tears taking place. I think, you know, Lisa describes, I mean, there -- you know, there were -- there were different kinds of moments of anticipation.

But as it happened, especially with Jason Johnson being the first, who was expelled there were, you know, people who are crying.

And then, when Gloria Johnson was spared expulsion, she was crying, but then people embraced. What were you experiencing? What did you feel?

TEQUILA JOHNSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, THE EQUITY ALLIANCE FUND: You know, I felt so many emotions, partially because this is not just a moment for us, organizers here in Tennessee. This is a part of a movement.

We've been on the ground knocking doors, we've been bringing young people out to do voter registration and to mobilize and organize people to action. And those three who were expelled -- or the two who were expelled then, and Gloria Johnson, they represent our movements, they are our leaders. They are the people that our people elected.

And it was just heartbreaking to witness what I say at a public lynching of two black men in our state capitol, where we had people on the floor calling for bringing back hanging by the neck. So, it was a lot of emotions. I was one of those people who cried as well. But I was also inspired and motivated to go on and keep fighting, and keep pushing, and keep getting people organized.

WHITFIELD: Tikeila Rucker, how does this change the way in which you try to appeal to the constituents there, how to help those who feel silent, have a bigger voice? How did this further motivate you in your mission?

TIKEILA RUCKER, POLITICAL ORGANIZER, MEMPHIS FOR ALL: So, it motivated me in my mission, in a way that it's absolutely necessary that we continue the work that we do.

So, I went through a range of feelings during the hearings as well. And one of the feelings I felt was defeat.

(CROSSTALK)

WHITFIELD: Yes.

RUCKER: And that's something that I know that is broad across the state of Tennessee. There are so many people in our state that feels like our system does not work. The Constitution that's supposed to -- we supposed to uphold, we are not adhering to.

And so, they've given up. And in that -- for a moment, I hadn't given up. But I was reignited and re-expired -- inspired to go forth and continue to be boots on the ground in the community, raising awareness, building connection, and empowering people to get out, and fight for our democracy, because it is at stake.

WHITFIELD: Lisa, do you do you feel like other -- others who felt like that moment of defeat, their feelings have changed around particularly hearing that there are now potential openings where Jason Pearson, and as well as Jones -- Justin. That they might be reappointed that their positions?

LUNA: Yes, absolutely. And organizations are going to be working this year to ensure that the special elections, seats all both of them again. But we're also working beyond that.

We know that we have to chip away at the GOP super majority in our state. And we are connecting with voters, black and brown voters year around on issues and during the elections. And we've got to flip 10 seats. And we can do that right now.

All eyes are on Tennessee in this moment. We need resources, we need your support. 2024 is just around the corner. But we know that with this newfound energy and the inspiring movements that these three have ignited that we can make change in our state.

WHITFIELD: And Tequila Johnson, I mean that the vice president was there yesterday. You know, she was emotional, she was galvanizing.

You know, she was encouraging people not to give up. And you know, these are -- these are also some of the words of the late, you know, Congressman John Lewis, you know, you never give up the fight.

[12:10:02]

You actually heard that repeated from Justin Jones, never giving up.

What did this mean to you to see the White House support in this manner and so quickly, so soon after the expulsion?

JOHNSON: If I'm going to be honest with you, I have -- I have mixed emotions, you know?

John Lewis, Diane Nash, they're all mentors of Justin's, and they are people who we follow, they have -- they started in Nashville, they started as students (INAUDIBLE), same as Justin.

So, on one hand, I'm super excited and I'm super hopeful because the vice president, the White House, so many celebrity activists, everybody is paying attention to Tennessee.

But this isn't the first-time people have paid attention to Tennessee. This isn't the first-time people pay attention to the south.

You look at Georgia, you look at other states and other cities where black and brown, people have put their lives, their livelihood and their bodies on the line for this notion of democracy.

They've been met with extremism and resistance from the Republican Party. And the Democrats parachute in with, you know, all of this hope. But then, once the cameras turned off, no one is there.

And I've been on the ground here, our organizations have been on the ground here. And 2018, we registered 91,000 people to vote. And our state turned around and wanted to pass a bill that would criminalize voter registration.

And once the cameras went off, everybody packed up. So, while I'm inspired that so many people are coming to Tennessee to give speeches and preachers and all these things, I can tell you several things.

One is as a staff, we don't have a shortage of preachers, we don't have a shortage of hope. What we have a shortage of? Our people investing in our state and our organizations that have been here that are going to be here for the long time.

What we have a shortage of? is people who are willing to lace up their shoes and get on the ground with us to help not just mobilizing and ignite people, but organize them into action.

So, Tikeila Rucker, then, do you see that there will be a sustainable, I guess, a sustainable commitment, the kind of Tequila say is -- says might potentially be absent in a matter of days, weeks months.

Do you believe that something's different right now? That there will be sustainable attention and support?

RUCKER: While I do share the same sentiments as Tequila Johnson, I'm hopeful that sustainability will be what's in our future.

This is unprecedented. And we, in Tennessee -- if Tennessee is on fire. And right now, as you say, the attention the media is here. But this is something we live daily. And we know how this continues to go.

My hope is that Justin's both of the Justin's are the fire that we needed to ignite this trail. And that sustainability, the resources will knock that out. Founders will see us, now, we're here. We are doing the work, we're boots on the ground, we are committed to change, and we need support from around the nation.

WHITFIELD: OK, to you --

(CROSSTALK)

RUCKER: I also want us --

WHITFIELD: Oh, go ahead.

RUCKER: So, you asked about the reappointment.

WHITFIELD: Yes.

RUCKER: Of those two individuals.

WHITFIELD: Of the two -- yes.

RUCKER: Here in Shelby County -- Yes. Here in Shelby County, we have now been threatened that funds will be taken away from Shelby County if they reappoint Justin Pearson back to his seat.

And that is unjust. That is not something that they've done in Nashville as it relates to Justin Jones. And I just want to call that out right here right now. Because the threats that are taking place is not -- is not right, is unlawful, and we have to do better as a society.

WHITFIELD: Thanks to you, ladies. Appreciate it. A very powerful point. Thank you for educating so many. Lisa, Tequila, and Tikeila. Thank you so much.

LUNA; Thank you.

JOHNSON: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: All right. A pair of rival court rulings are once again bringing the abortion rights fight to the forefront.

WHITFIELD (voice over): A federal judge in Texas ruled that the FDA's more than two decades old approval of the drug, Mifepristone should be halted.

It's one of the main drugs used in abortions, but a federal judge in Washington State is protecting access to the drug in 17 democratic led states and the District of Columbia which sued to protect the medication abortion. Here with us now, CNN senior Supreme Court analyst Joan Biskupic, who is the author of the new book, Nine Black Robes. Joan, welcome back. So, where do these rulings leave the status of this drug right now?

JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SENIOR SUPREME COURT ANALYST (on camera): Good afternoon, Fredricka.

The more important ruling is, of course, the one out of Texas where Judge Matthew Kacsmaryk invalidated the FDA's approval, which dates back to the year 2,000 for this medication abortion drug.

[12:15:04]

But he did suspend his ruling for seven days. So, we're going to see appeals coming from the department of justice. And the first step is usually the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, a regional appellate court. And then, bound for the U.S. Supreme Court.

Attorney General Merrick Garland, when he revealed last night that the government would be appealing this decision, stressed that the Food and Drug Administration had undertaken a very comprehensive review, and decided that, you know, based on the medicine, the science that this drug was safe and effective for women who needed to end a pregnancy.

Now, clearly Fredricka this case is going to open up a new chapter of the abortion wars at the Supreme Court. I do want to say though, it's -- the terrain is slightly different for this case.

We saw in June, when the justices ruled in the Dobbs case for Mississippi that they completely went back on nearly 50 years of abortion rights precedent based on the Constitution and what they saw for due process for women who wanted to make the abortion choice.

This new case coming to the court has much more to do with the regulatory power of the Food and Drug Administration. And back in June, one of the critical justices to the Supreme Court's evisceration of constitutional abortion rights, did say the court was not outlawing abortion nationwide.

That states were still free to do what they wanted to do. In fact, the majority itself said, this should return the issue to individual states.

Brett Kavanaugh, in his separate statement, said, to be clear, we are not outlawing abortion. This is something the moral and policy choices are going back to legislators in the democratic process.

But if a single judge in Texas, then, reinforced by other judges along the way, is allowed to completely fault the FDA process and eliminate this approval.

That certainly will not give women who live in states that now permit abortion access to this key way of exercising abortion rights. Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right. Joan Biskupic, thanks so much. BISKUPIC: Thank you.

WHITFIELD (voice over): Coming up. An investigation is underway after the Cash App founder was fatally stabbed. What we know about the case, straight ahead.

Plus, Florida police are offering a $10,000 reward for a 16-year-old wanted in connection to a triple homicide.

A 17 and 12-year-old have already been charged with first degree murder. Details straight ahead.

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[12:21:48]

WHITFIELD (on camera): Welcome back. Police in San Francisco continue to search for clues in the stunning murder of a well-known tech executive.

Bob Lee was discovered by the city's police department early Tuesday morning, suffering from stab wounds in a neighborhood near the downtown area.

The 43-year-old was the former chief technology officer of Square and also helped launch the popular Cash App.

CNN's Camila Bernal, joining us right now.

Camila, what more do we know about this investigation?

CAMILA BERNAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Well, Fred, we know that authorities are still looking for that killer in San Francisco. There are so many questions surrounding Bob Lee's death and authority is just not giving us very much. If they know what happened, well, they are not saying.

All we know is that he died of apparent gunshot -- or excuse me, stab wounds. That was on Tuesday at around 2:30 in the morning in San Francisco.

There is surveillance video and a 911 call that essentially detail what happened just before he died.

He is seen walking in the street in San Francisco, he is holding his side with one hand, his phone with the other hand.

You can see some of the blood in the video, we're not showing the full video because, of course, it is graphic, and these are the last moments of his life.

And a lot of people are just very concerned about exactly what happened. Authorities not giving us a motive and not saying whether they believe this was targeted, or if this was a random stabbing attack. And look, this is of course, the biggest question for people in San Francisco. They want to know was this targeted? The crime in San Francisco, everyone knows, you know, for example, that you can't leave anything in your car.

Everyone in San Francisco knows someone whose car has been broken into. But property crime is one thing and violent crime, that is a whole another thing.

In 2013, violent crime peaked in San Francisco was -- with about 7,000 or so violent crimes in the city.

That number has gone down significantly over the last couple of years. So, the question here is, what happened and why? And not only people that knew Bob Lee want to know the answer to that, but really the entire community in San Francisco. Fred.

WHITFIELD: Yes, it's so terribly sad. I'm sure the cameras all throughout the neighborhood, at some point, might, you know bring some answers to investigators trying to figure out the moments preceding the images that we've just recently seen.

All right. Camila Bernal, thanks so much.

BERNAL: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: All right. Straight ahead, Ukrainian officials say, at least 20,000 children have been forcibly removed by Russian military.

[12:24:31]

WHITFIELD (voice over): Next, what authorities in Kyiv were doing to reunite children with their parents?

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WHITFIELD (on camera): Welcome back. Officials in Israel say they have called up reserve units after reporting to separate deadly attacks on Friday night.

Among the dead was an Italian tourist who was killed in a car ramming attack near a beach in Tel Aviv.

The attack occurred after Israel carried out airstrikes on Palestinian militant targets in southern Lebanon and Gaza.

Tensions have been running high since an Israeli raid earlier in the week on the al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem.

The violence is taking place during a sensitive time for both Israelis and Palestinians. Muslims have been marking the holy month of Ramadan, while Jews are celebrating Passover.

Meantime, in Tel Aviv, the protests over judicial reform continued, despite what has been happening in the last few days.

CNN's Fred Pleitgen is there.

So, how has this week's conflict changed protests? And now, we see a completely different environment you're in?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Yes, we certainly do. And you're absolutely right, Fredricka. 1000s of people actually turned out despite the fact that you do have that very volatile security situation, not just here in a city like Tel Aviv, where we did have that massive attack.

Obviously, that shook a lot of people here in the city late last night.

[12:30:01]

But also, some of the other things that have been happening over the past couple of days with those rockets being fired from Lebanon, the Israelis responding by bombing targets in Lebanon and in Gaza as well.

So, a very volatile security situation. Nevertheless, as you can see around me, many people once again, are taking to the streets to protest against that planned overhaul of Israel's judiciary. And simply because the folks here say that they believe that this topic is so important.

They believe that democracy in this country is under threat. They believe that the division of power and rule of law are under threat in this country, because for now, that law that was planned by Benjamin Netanyahu's government it's been put on ice, but it hasn't been completely shelled yet and so people continue to turn out.

Now, because of the security situation in the greater Middle East and specifically, of course, here in Israel, they have made some concessions you see the protesters marching a little bit right now. But there's not going to be a bigger march that usually happens on weekends.

That's something that current is not going to go on. At the same time of course, the protesters are very sensitive to the fact that you have had some terrible incidents that took place, not just here in Tel Aviv, but in the West Bank as well, where two women were killed when their car was fired up and they crashed.

And so they obviously, are pulling out their empathy towards the people who are harmed in those attacks. But at the same time, they also, of course, had to make some concessions to the security forces, as you can imagine, a protest like this, obviously, potentially a big target as well. Nevertheless, the folks are saying it's so important to go out from the streets that they are, as you can see out in force Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, passionate, indeed. All right, Fred Pleitgen in Tel Aviv. A Senior Ukrainian official said today that at least 20,000 Ukrainian children had been forcibly removed from - by rather the Russian military from temporarily occupied territories. The official was speaking with civil rights lawyer, Amal Clooney. The International Criminal Court last month issued an arrest warrant for Vladimir Putin and his Children's Rights Commissioner on charges of taking children from Ukraine.

CNN's Nick Payton Walsh is in Kyiv for us. Nick, you have spoken with some children who have actually been returned from Russia by a Ukrainian humanitarian agency and what are they saying?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, some jubilant seen certainly in Kyiv today Fredricka, when the save Ukraine an NGO delivered the loss of a significant number of journeys they've made from Ukraine via Belarus, through Russia, back again into occupied parts of Ukraine to retrieve children who all intents and purposes have been forcibly removed from areas of Ukraine into occupied areas of Russia.

We spoke to one 13-year-old boy bogged down extremely brave, frankly, and almost at time, sort of flippant about what had happened to him. But he was clear. He thought he was going to a sort of summer retreat in Crimea, which is occupied by Russia for a couple of weeks but was held there really for six months.

And in fact, his mother talked about how her hands still shook as she was desperately trying to get a phone signal through to bog down to check he was OK to check out where he was both and acted like he never had any doubt, he'd eventually get home. But it was clear certainly for months there that he was held against his desires.

But the scenes were jubilant, as you can see there some others not wishing to talk bogged down and Arena (ph) his mother from Kherson, one of the first areas to be majorly occupied by Russia. And this is part of a broader scheme it seems by this Ukrainian NGO, to take parents 13 in this most recent trip through Belarus, via Russia into occupied parts of Ukraine.

Now, some of these parents weren't actually collecting their own children, they were in fact given power of attorney to bring back the children of others with their consent. 31 today an age range of 8 to 17 so these small stories show exactly the scale of the 20,000 that Ukraine says have been forcibly removed from occupied areas and parts of Ukraine and held now in occupied parts that Russia controls.

But the human tragedies themselves and frankly, the horror that parents have been fleeing, just not knowing what's happened to their kids, is quite devastating to hear, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Oh, it is so sad. Nick Payton Walsh in Kyiv thanks so much. All right and now to Russia, where Wall Street Journal reporter Evan Gershkovich has been formally charged with espionage by Russian prosecutors, according to Russian state media.

The report went on to say Evan Gershkovich denied the accusations Russia's security service said last week that it had detained Evan Gershkovich, on accusations of spying, the Wall Street Journal's publisher released a statement saying "Now these charges are categorically false and unjustified. And we continue to demand Evan's immediate release".

[12:35:00]

The White House is also demanding his release from custody. All right, coming up Former President Donald Trump's legal strategy is beginning to take shape as he faces 34 felony charges. We'll discuss next.

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WHITFIELD: In the aftermath of Donald Trump's indictment on 34 felony counts of falsifying business records, the Former President's legal and political strategy is becoming clearer as Trump and his allies raise questions about the district attorney and the judge overseeing the case. CNN's Kristen Holmes has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): As Former President Trump's legal strategy takes shape him and his allies are moving ahead full throttle with our political strategy to discredit the Manhattan District Attorney and the judge overseeing his case.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): He hates Trump. He's a left-wing Democrat, and by any means necessary is his approach.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Underneath York State law is a felony.

HOLMES (voice over): Attacking Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg a Democrat as being politically motivated.

REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): It's a political scam. I've said that for weeks now.

[12:40:00]

HOLMES (voice over): Trump ally and Head of the House Judiciary Committee Jim Jordan, firing off a subpoena to a former senior prosecutor on the Manhattan DA's team Mark Pomerantz the committee saying Pomerantz's public statements about the investigation strongly suggest that Bragg's prosecution of President Trump is politically motivated. Trump World also questioning the impartiality of the judge on the case, Juan Merchan.

MIKE DAVIS, TRUMP LEGAL ALLY: They brought these bogus political charges against President Trump and then he finds out that this judge actually donated to Biden's campaign. So that at least raises the appearance of impartiality - the appearance that this judge could be - not be impartial against President Trump.

HOLMES (voice over): According to FEC filings Merchan donated small amounts to Democratic fundraising efforts in 2020, including $15 to Joe Biden's campaign and act that caught some legal experts by surprise.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: While the dollar amounts here are quite small, there could be an issue at least about the appearance of a conflict of interest. The judicial ethics rules say that you want to avoid any situation where it could look like a judge might not be impartial.

HOLMES (voice over): Trump also taking aim at Merchan's family, despite a request from the judge to avoid rhetoric that could "Incites violence" or jeopardizes the safety or well-being of any individuals.

DOLAND TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have a Trump hating judge with the Trump hating wife and family, whose daughter worked for Kamala Harris.

HOMLES (voice over): Merchan's daughter served as President of Authentic Campaigns, a firm that does digital work for Democratic candidates. Law enforcement in New York continues to track threats against Bragg and Merchan although none of the threats so far have been deemed credible.

Trump himself lashing out more broadly at the investigations into his conduct, asking Republicans to "Defund the DOJ and FBI until they come to their senses" and accusing Democrats of weaponizing law enforcement something not all Republican allies were in agreement on.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I'm not for defunding the police. I think it's a bad idea. This frustrated as he has right to be about some things they up as done.

HOMLES (voice over): As Trump and his team continue their full core press, notably absent Former First Lady Melania Trump, who hasn't been seen in public with Donald Trump, since news broke up his indictment.

HOMLES (on camera): And what we haven't seen Melania she's not traveled from Florida to New York with the Former president for his arraignment. He was not at that speech at Mar-a-Lago. I am told by a number of sources that she has been eating dinner with him.

She's been seen around the club with the Former President, but some allies do believe that it would be helpful, at least from an optics perspective for her to appear with him publicly, Kristen Holmes, CNN, West Palm Beach, Florida.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: All right. Joining me right now to talk more about all of this is Larry Noble. He is a Former General Counsel for the Federal Election Commission. So good to see you, Larry! So will this be effective, you know, Trump's strategy of attacking the district attorney and judge accusing them of being politically motivated?

LARRY NOBLE, A FORMER GENERAL COUNSEL, FEDERAL ELECTION COMMISSION: Well, good afternoon, Fred! It'll be very successful, I guess, in fundraising, which is a lot I think of the point of this. I don't think it's going to be at all successful in derailing the case.

As was mentioned in the previous piece, the issue now with the judge having made very small political contributions may become problematic, but that's not going to affect the underlying case. So the attacking the judge, the attacking his family is dangerous. It will raise money for Trump, no doubt. But I don't think it's going to de-rail the case.

WHITFIELD: OK. So the judge making a small donation to the Joe Biden campaign, you said it could be problematic to what degree what do you mean?

NOBLE: Well, I mean, as I said, the code of ethics says you should avoid any appearance of partiality. And, you know, it is when you make political contributions, people assume that's who you're in favor of.

Now, these are very small, I do wonder, because of the size of them, whether they were for tickets to enter some sort of fundraiser, some sort of event, but still, you hope judges would stay out of politics. You know, I was with the government for 23 years, and I totally stayed out of politics, and neither myself nor my wife made any political contributions.

WHITFIELD: Should he - itself?

NOBLE: So it is problematic. No, I don't think he should recue himself. I just think it's unfortunate. I think it's going to give Trump one more thing to hang on to and support. It's one more thing to hang on to, but no, I think if he feels that he's impartial, if he feels he can still be impartial, and then no, I don't think he should recues himself.

WHITFIELD: OK. And then House Republicans are also winding their investigation to the Manhattan District Attorney's Office you know, following this indictment. Could this in any way impact the criminal case against Trump?

[12:45:00]

I mean clearly any kind of subpoenas the DA's Office will be able to say it's an ongoing investigation. We can't talk about it. So you know they're not going to reveal anything. But is it just a distraction? Or could it actually undermine the case?

NOBLE: Well, it is definitely a distraction. I think it's pretty outrageous. I hope it doesn't interfere with the case. So far Bragg seems to be on top of this and just saying he's not going to participate in this. But it's outrageous that the Republicans in Congress are trying to interfere with the state investigation.

And so hopefully, it wills not - it will not cause any derailment. But again, it's one more thing they can fundraise over. It's one more thing that they can throw in the air try to distract from what the underlying issues are.

And that's in Trump's strategy, all long. He has constantly try to attack his the people who are trying to investigate him, and to throw a lot of smoke up to try to, you know, cause confusion and give people reasons to say this is unfair.

But I have - of the things that have happened in the last week or so you know, Congress, Republicans in Congress, attacking the district attorney I think is really outside the lines, it is really Congress interfering with local investigation.

WHITFIELD: And then switching gears to another Trump investigation this week. Former Vice President Mike Pence announced that he will not appeal a judge's decision that requires him to testify to the grand jury about you know, Trump's actions leading up to the January 6 insurrection. That's done quite a few but what do you believe this will open? What this might open up?

NOBLE: Well, this opens up potentially a lot. I mean, Pence presumably knows a lot of what happened. The conversations you had with Trump, or maybe any warnings that were given by others to Trump. And this is I think one of Trump's nightmares that people around him begin to talk.

I think Pence is doing the right thing here. And so this is dangerous. And the whole investigation into the January 6 insurrection, I think, is really dangerous for Trump. I think that it poses real problems for him and this is not what he wants.

You know, and it's also connecting now with you know, the investigation, you know, in to Mar-a-Lago because it's being done by the same prosecutor Jack Smith. So these are areas where I think Trump really does have to worry.

And Pence, you know, in one sense, I wonder what Trump was thinking when he attacked Pence the way he did, because that's not the way you keep people on your side, if you're worried about investigations, and if you're worried about people testifying.

WHITFIELD: Yes. And while they are all separate cases being prosecuted by different entities, there may be some correlations that could be brought with the Mar-a-Lago case, the Georgia investigations, January 6 investigations and of course, New York as well. All right, we shall see Larry Noble, great to see you again. Thank you so much.

NOBLE: Thanks.

WHITFIELD: All right, across the country, maternity wards are closing their doors, forcing expectant mothers to travel long distances to receive care details on this alarming trend, next.

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WHITFIELD: Maternity wards across the country are closing and forcing expectant mothers to travel miles away to get the care that they need. CNN's Elizabeth Cohen has more.

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ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Delivering babies is one of the most important things that a hospital can do. But now many hospitals are saying they're not going to do it anymore.

COHEN (voice over): Bonner County, Idaho picture perfect, idyllic a great place to ski or swim or fish but not a great place to have a baby.

LEANDRA WRIGHT, BONNER GENERAL PATIENT: I just found out a couple of weeks ago via Facebook that my local hospital is shutting down their OB units.

COHEN (voice over): Leandra Wright has six children and now she's five months pregnant with her seventh. 10 minutes away is Bonnard General Hospital where they've been delivering babies for more than 70 years. But next month, they'll stop. That means when Leandra's new baby is born this summer, she'll have to do this 40 mile drive all the way to - on a good day, it will take 45 minutes.

WRIGHT: It's frustrating and worrisome.

COHEN (voice over): Leandra has a history of fast labors. Her son Noah was born on the way to the hospital.

WRIGHT: My fifth child was born on the side of the highway.

COHEN (voice over): New moms in Bonner County aren't alone. Since 2011 217 hospitals in the U.S. have closed their labor and delivery departments. In the past year alone, hospitals across the country have stopped delivering babies.

Money is one reason the American Hospital Association points out that almost half of U.S. births are paid for by Medicaid which has low reimbursement rates. Employer sponsored insurance pays about $15,000 for a delivery and Medicaid pays about $6500.

Bonner General says one reason for shuttering their obstetrics unit is because they won't have enough providers certified in neonatal resuscitations and abortion laws appear to be playing a role too. A hospital press release says due to Idaho's legal and political climate highly respected, talented physicians are leaving. The Idaho legislature continues to introduce and pass bills that criminalize physicians for medical care nationally recognized as the standard of care.

Well, Bonner didn't specifically name abortion. The state does have one of the strictest anti-abortion laws in the country, banning the procedure almost completely with only a few exceptions. Next month Leandra's obstetrician will stop seeing her.

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WRIGHT: Even we existing patients will have to find other services. It just really is surreal that that it's something I have to worry about.

COHEN (voice over): She needs to find another obstetrician and then figure out what she can do to avoid giving birth on the long road to the hospital.

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COHEN: Some areas of the country have such low access to obstetrical care that the March of Dimes calls them maternity deserts, and they say that more than 2 million women of childbearing age live in maternity deserts in the United States.

WHITFIELD: Elizabeth Cohen thanks so much. And this quick programming note, what started with the disappearance of 20 people from a small town in Oregon ended with the largest suicide on U.S. soil and changed the face of new age religion forever. Heaven's Gate, the cult of cults continues tomorrow night at 10 right here on CNN. We'll be right back.

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