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Rival Rulings On Medication Abortion Fuel Post-Roe Legal War; Interview With Sen. Dick Durbin (D-IL); Israelis Protest Judicial Reform Plan Amid New Wave Of Violence ; Headline: GOP-Led TN House Expels Two Black Dems Over Gun Reform Protest; Abortion Rights And Elections; Doctor Gives Her Own Kidney To Donor Pool For Patients In Need. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired April 08, 2023 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:01:20]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington.

We begin the hour with a crucial ruling out of the State of Texas that arguably marks the most significant blow to women's rights since the Supreme Court overturned Roe vs. Wade last summer. A Trump-appointed Judge in Texas ruled Friday that the FDA's more than two-decade-old approval of the drug, mifepristone should be halted. It is one of the most trusted and widely used drugs for medication abortions.

The Court did pause the ruling for one week so that an appeal, which is already underway can be filed. Democrats are slamming the decision with the Biden administration vowing to fight back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So the District Court in the abortion medication decision came down today. I haven't read it yet, so I'm going to do an analysis of it.

But as a general matter, I'll say that there is no question that the President and I are going to stand with the women of America and do everything we can to ensure that women have the ability to make decisions about their health care, their reproductive health care in a manner that is what they need, and they decide that, not their government.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And while abortion right supporters have a battle to wage in Texas, they do have at least a partial victory to celebrate in Washington State. An Obama-appointed Judge move to protect access to that very same medication under fire in Texas, affecting the 17 States that filed that suit and the District of Columbia.

CNN White House correspondent, Arlette Saenz joins us now.

Arlette, walk us through what the Biden administration is planning on doing about all of this? ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, President Biden has vowed to fight this ruling from that Texas Judge every step of the way and that started last night as the Justice Department moved very quickly to file its appeal in this case.

Now President Biden warned of the national ramifications this case will have when it comes to medication abortion. He said in a statement: "This does not just affect women in Texas. If it stands, it would prevent women in every State from accessing the medication regardless of whether abortion is legal in a State." He added: "It is the next big step toward the national ban on abortion that Republican- elected officials have vowed to make law in America."

President Biden also warned of the impact that this ruling could have on other drugs that have been approved by the FDA. This Texas Judge, Judge Matt Kacsmaryk essentially suspended FDA approval of mifepristone, a drug that has been commonly used and it was approved by the FDA back in 2000. He set rules that that approval process was flawed and did not take into consideration all of the risks that this medication could pose for women.

The President has warned that this type of ruling could impact other drugs that have been approved by the FDA. He said it could put them at risk of "political and ideological attacks."

Now one of the big questions is what exactly happens next? This Texas Judge put a seven-day pause on his ruling in order to give time to the Federal government to submit their appeal, which they have done. This will now head to an Appellate Court.

And for the Biden administration's part, they have very limited tools in their toolbox to be able to address this at this moment. There were already some abortion protections that they put into place in the wake of that Dobbs decision last summer. The President has called for Congress to codify Roe v. Wade into law, but those votes simply don't exist.

So, for the time being, they will be watching how this process plays out in those Appeals Court and many experts are saying that these two conflicting rulings in Texas and then that one in Washington that this could very well set up a showdown at the Supreme Court.

[18:05:10]

ACOSTA: All right, Arlette Saenz over at the White House for us. Thanks so much.

Joining me now to talk about this is the Senate Democratic Whip, Dick Durbin of Illinois. He is also the Chairman of the Judiciary Committee.

Senator, thanks for being with us. As always, let's begin with this Federal Judge in Texas halting the FDA's more than two-decade-old approval of the drug, mifepristone. What's your reaction to that?

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): Remember what they said about the Dobbs decisions? Well, we're going to let each State decide the law on abortion as it relates to the residents of that State. Now, look, what's happening. Here comes a Judge in Texas who has decided that he is going to call into question the legitimacy and efficacy of a drug that's been on the market for 20 years, not just in the State of Texas, mind you, but nationally, if he has his way.

This has become a headline issue, which we return to time and time again, as the Republicans move closer to banning abortion across America.

ACOSTA: And Vice President Kamala Harris is calling the Texas ruling -- the ruling out of Texas a dangerous precedent. Do you agree with that? And do you do you worry about what is going to happen if this issue ultimately gets to the Supreme Court, as it appears to be heading?

DURBIN: Just think for a moment, here is a drug that was approved by the Food and Drug Administration 20 years ago, plus, it has been administered successfully with very, very few contraindications and bad results across the United States. And now the prolife movement has decided that they want to stop this drug from being administered and prescribed across America.

What in the world is next? I mean, this is not a question of States' rights any longer, it is a national right, a constitutional right that's been taken away by the Supreme Court.

ACOSTA: And let's shift gears to a Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. As you know, he is pushing back against criticism that he never disclosed luxury trips given to him by a GOP megadonor. You're the Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. As we know, you have vowed that you're going to take action, the Committee will take action. What can be done about this? And why is it the Supreme Court doesn't have a set of ethics guidelines that prohibits this sort of thing?

DURBIN: That's the obvious question, and I asked that question to Chief Justice Roberts more than 10 years ago, in writing, why don't you adopt the same standards and procedures that apply to all the other Federal Courts and apply it to the US Supreme Court to limit activities and also require disclosure? He wrote back and basically said, very tersely, we don't think it's necessary.

Well, I hope he's read the ProPublica piece about Justice Clarence Thomas, who once again has surfaced as Exhibit A in the problem that this Court faces.

Chief Justice Roberts needs to take the important first step here, as the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court to restore the integrity of that Court with a thorough and credible investigation of what happened with Justice Thomas, and what they're going to do moving forward.

At a minimum, the Highest Court in the land should not have the lowest standards of justice when it comes to ethics.

ACOSTA: And I guess, Senator, what do you have to say to Justice Thomas, who is essentially making the argument that he is allowed to have rich friends who take him on glitzy vacations? And that that's -- those are his friends, and they want to take them there. That's what they could do.

DURBIN: It doesn't pass the laugh test, and let me tell you what's even worse. We're having disclosures by lobbyists from the MAGA side, the right wing of American politics, who have targeted the Supreme Court Justices, and Justice Thomas is not alone. Justice Alito's name is mentioned as well. They believe that they can influence them.

People like Leonard Leo, who has been the architect, the Republican architect, to mastermind control of the Federal Court system. We understand as a company, Justice Thomas on these trips that were paid for by this billionaire out of Texas. So the plot thickens.

And if Justice Roberts cares about the integrity of this Court, and I believe he does, he needs to prove it with a thorough and complete investigation of what occurred, and a reform of the Courts' ethics immediately.

ACOSTA: And let me ask you about Tennessee, as you know, two Black State lawmakers were expelled from the State's Republican-controlled General Assembly this week. Their offense, according to their Republican colleagues is that they joined in on a protest on the House floor demanding a gun safety legislation after the Nashville school shooting that left six people dead, including three little children.

I guess, your reaction to those expulsions and what do you make of the fact that the one legislator of the Tennessee Three who survived is White? Do you think race played a role in this?

DURBIN: You know, I couldn't answer that question and feel that I really know all the facts to answer it, but I do know this, I've been around legislatures and Congress and the United States Senate for most of my adult life. I've seen some people speak out on the floor of all of those bodies and I've seen the reaction to it.

[18:10:10]

DURBIN: I remember when John Lewis, the late Civil Rights leader from Georgia, stood up on the floor of the House of Representatives and said, voting rights are so essential that we're going to have a sit- in, in the US House of Representatives. I joined him, as did Tammy Duckworth in that sit-in. He was not expelled, nor should he have been.

I think expressions like that on the floor of a legislature should not be treated as if they are capital offense. If there was some censure or admonishment that was part of it, so be it, but to expel two members from the Tennessee House of Representatives is an outrage.

ACOSTA: All right, Senator Dick Durbin, thanks so much for your time this evening. We really appreciate it.

DURBIN: Thanks, Jim. ACOSTA: All right. short time ago, the Israeli military said that three rockets were launched from Syria toward Israel today. One of them landed in the Southern Golan Heights region.

Separately, the Palestinian Health Ministry says Israeli forces shot and killed a Palestinian man in the West Bank. The Israeli military says earlier in that area, multiple protesters had thrown explosives at IDF soldiers. All of this follows a series of attacks in the region over the past few days, and it comes amid domestic turmoil in Israel.

Protesters continue packing the streets of Tel Aviv demanding Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu abandon his controversial judicial reform legislation and those efforts in that area.

CNN's Fred Pleitgen is there.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Jim.

Well, as you can see, despite the fact that right now, it is a really difficult security environment here in Israel, thousands of people have come out to protest against that planned judicial reform, the overhaul of the judiciary, really.

I'm right here in Central Tel Aviv, and as you can see around me, there are literally thousands of people who have come out.

Now the folks say that, quite frankly, for them, they believe that democracy is under threat here in this country. They believe that the division of powers is under threat, and with that, the rule of law as well. And the simple reason for that is that despite the fact that the proposed law to reform or overhaul essentially, the Supreme Court of this country has been put on ice, it hasn't completely been shelved yet, and the people here obviously feel that that could become a law that then would allow the government to essentially control Israel's Supreme Court.

Now all of this, of course, happening in that very volatile security environment that we've been here in this country over the past couple of days. You have of course, had the Israeli Security Forces on two occasions raid the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, then you had those rocket strikes coming from Lebanon to Israeli territory, the Israelis responding not just bombing targets in South Lebanon, but in Gaza as well.

Right now, all of that has calmed down to a certain degree, but the situation obviously, still very tense.

And the folks here, they have taken that into consideration. On the one hand, they do have their speeches. As you can see, the crowd also is very lively. But there is no music, for instance, being played. And at the same time, of course, they also understand that a big event like this could also be a target as well.

You did have a terror attack that took place here in Tel Aviv, only a day ago, where one person was killed. So right now, obviously, the security environment here in the city, as in the whole country remains very tense -- Jim.

ACOSTA: All right, Fred Pleitgen, thank you very much.

For more on the rising tensions in the region, former State Department, Middle East negotiator, Aaron David Miller joins us. He is also a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

Aaron, always great to talk to you. What do you think? Are these recent events surprising? And I suppose it is somewhat surprising to see some of these issues converge. The protests, yes, the recent violence?

AARON DAVID MILLER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Yes, I mean, I think everybody --

let's begin this way: You have a perfect storm building, Jim, that's the problem, that's the backdrop. You have a 56-year-old Israeli occupation. You've got the most fundamentalist and extreme Israeli government in the history of the state. You have Hamas, either directing or encouraging and/or planning terrorist attacks against Israelis, and we've seen that in recent days in Tel Aviv and in the West Bank.

And now, what you have building, I'm told, are hundreds of young Palestinians who are now in the Al-Aqsa Mosque as night approaches, it is already evening, with the Israeli Police on Tuesday having dislodged them forcibly, which resulted in some extraordinarily painful pictures, which encouraged further Palestinian protests.

So the issue I think right now is getting through the next 24 or 48 hours without an explosion on the one site, the Haram al-Sharif, the Temple Mount, overlapping sacred space that could actually set this whole thing ablaze.

Lebanon is a problem, but that seems to have quieted down. Hamas does not want to fight in Gaza. It is now Jerusalem that is once again the focus.

[18:15:09]

ACOSTA: And do you see this situation escalating? I mean, is there any prospect for de-escalation here?

MILLER: De-escalation is the only option because the notion of trying to redress or address the core issues that separate Israelis and Palestinians into some sort of negotiating process leading to conflict and solution, you know, right now, it's slim to none, Jim and slim has left town. And I just don't see anything other than the situation -- if it has calmed down now, fine, but we're not likely to get through the next several months, I suspect without a major explosion between Israelis and Palestinians.

ACOSTA: And these demonstrations that we've been showing these images to our viewers for weeks now and they are showing no signs of really abating even though the Netanyahu government sort of hit the pause button, we thought on the whole thing. And yet, this is ongoing. What do you think?

MILLER: I mean, I think putting hundreds of thousands, maybe six percent of the entire population of the State of Israel on the streets for 14 weeks, even in the face of terror attacks, which tends to unite the country is symptomatic of two things: The seriousness with which these protesters view the threat of judicial reform and the fact that they simply do not trust Benjamin Netanyahu, and they're out in the streets, reminding him of what is going to happen. These will continue if he continues to push this judicial reform through the Knesset.

ACOSTA: And the protest movement is calling for the international community to support their cause. Do you see any sign of that happening?

MILLER: Well, I think the Biden administration for sure, which is I think the key element here, as far as Israel's priorities are concerned, has been actually and characteristically outspoken on an issue that some regard is an internal Israeli political issue.

I mean, the President had a tough phone call 10 days ago with the Prime Minister. He is encouraged, in fact, when you have the Secretary of Defense, Lloyd Austin in Israel talking about the need for consensus on the judicial reform issue, you know that they have the Biden administration's attention.

The problem is, Jim that this in essence is going to be an Israeli issue and the administration is allowing the Israelis right now to do the walking and the talking and that is as it should be.

ACOSTA: All right, we'll be keeping an eye on all of this, I know you will, as well.

Aaron David Miller, thanks so much for your time. Always great to talk to you. We appreciate it.

All right, and there are increased concerns about violent crime in San Francisco after the founder of Cash App was stabbed to death on a public street. How this new video could help catch his killer, next.

Plus, a look at the Pope's Easter weekend celebration. How his involvement has been scaled back a bit after his recent health scare.

And later, a doctor gives the gift of life by donating her own kidney to someone she has never met. We'll talk about all of that and we'll talk to her. She'll join us live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:22:27]

ACOSTA: Police have yet to make an arrest more than four days after Cash App founder, Bob Lee was stabbed to death in the streets of San Francisco. This is newly released surveillance video showing the tech executive pleading for help moments after the attack.

"The Daily Mail," which obtained the video says a bleeding Lee tried to wave down a passing car before it drove off.

CNN's Camila Bernal joins us now with the latest on the investigation.

Just a shocking case, Camila, but investigators right now are being pretty tight-lipped about it, so far. We can you tell us?

CAMILA BERNAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jim. They really are keeping it tight-lipped, and if they know something they're just not saying.

What we do know is that they're still looking for this killer. We know this stabbing happened on Tuesday at around 2:30 in the morning, and there is a 9-1-1 call, and you mentioned there, a surveillance video as well, essentially showing his last minutes.

He is seen in that video holding his side with one hand, his phone with the other. You see when he falls to the ground, of course. This is all very difficult to watch for people who knew him and really for the entire community, and the biggest question here is, was this targeted? Or was this a random attack?

That is extremely concerning for the citizens in San Francisco, because look, everyone knows that in San Francisco, you don't leave anything in your car. Everyone knows someone whose car has been broken into. But one thing is talking about property crime, the other is talking about violent crime, that is completely different.

And actually, in the last couple of years, violent crime has gone down in San Francisco and when you compare it to other major cities, violent crime in San Francisco is actually on the lower middle part of the pack when you look at other cities, according to data that has been reviewed by CNN. So a case like this really leaves people questioning what in the world is happening in San Francisco -- and wanting answers that right now, they are just not giving us -- Jim.

ACOSTA: Yes, it is good to have that data, good to have that perspective, but we are also following another horrible attack in San Francisco, is that right? The victim in this one was the city's former Fire Commissioner, who police say was brutally beaten with a metal pipe. How is he doing?

BERNAL: He is doing okay. He's expected to survive, but he had very serious injuries to his head.

Don Carmignani was attacked just a day after Bob Lee was attacked. This case, it was with a metal pipe. And so he was outside of his mother's house in the Marina District and he is essentially being beaten with this pipe.

[18:25:02]

BERNAL: And so of course, the injuries are severe and he is still in the hospital. Officials in this case have arrested a 24-year-old man. He has been charged with assault with a deadly weapon, but even the Police Chief, speaking out this week and talking to very concerned residents in San Francisco saying he understands that an attack like this leaves people extremely anxious and leaves them wondering again, what is going on in San Francisco?

And in this case, he really is demanding answers according to our affiliate KPIX. He wants to know and is upset about what happened -- Jim.

ACOSTA: Absolutely.

All right, Camila Bernal, thank you very much.

What do Republicans think about Tennessee expelling two Black lawmakers over a gun reform protest? Our political panel weighs in next.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:30:03]

ACOSTA: As if the first ever indictment of a former president wasn't enough to digest this week, Tennessee pushed the political world into a further tailspin. The GOP dominated House voting to expel two young Democratic lawmakers because they had taken part in a gun control protest. It didn't escape notice that representatives Justin Jones and Justin Pearson are black, while their white colleague, Gloria Johnson, also protested but she survived being kicked out by one vote.

And joining us now to talk about this is Republican strategist, CNN Political Analyst, Alice Stewart and CNN Political Commentator, Bakari Sellers, a former South Carolina state legislator.

Bakari, I have to start with your first, because I got to wonder what would have been like for you to be in the thick of this? How did we get here?

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That's a good question. And how would I have felt to be in the thick of this? I don't think --

ACOSTA: Yes.

SELLERS: -- that at the period of time I liked it from 2006 to 2014. The temperature was what it is today. The fact is, I think Republicans in the Tennessee General Assembly just shot themselves in the foot. They didn't want these young black men or they probably looked at him as these young colored boys to be able to speak up and use their words and use their courage and do the things that they felt should be done.

But yet, and still, they made them martyrs. They put them on a pedestal. Now everybody knows Justin and Justin. And the fact they did it without any regard to their white colleague Gloria, who's actually an ally, who is a hero herself, it just shows you what this was about.

This was about putting two young Negroes in their place and I think it backfired similar in 1966 with Julian Bond.

ACOSTA: And Alice, that state legislator that Bakari just mentioned, Gloria Johnson, she said, yes, because of the color of my skin that she was spared and the other two lawmakers were not when it comes to expulsion. Let me ask you, Alice, the Republican Party in Tennessee, they hold a super majority in the general assembly there. Is this what you wanted to see this week from state lawmakers there in Tennessee? Was this a mistake? Did they go too far? What do you think?

ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It is not what I wanted to see. Yes, they made a mistake and, yes, they went too far. I think this absolutely could have been handled by just centering these legislators and potentially maybe removing them from the committee assignments and they certainly would have gotten the message.

And I've spoken with one of the representatives that made this decision and they said it was very difficult. It was a very emotional day. But when they looked at the footage and talked with people that were there on the day of these protests, they saw the two Justins acting a little bit more aggressively than the woman who was not expelled from the legislature.

They saw them going up into the balcony and inciting the crowd and really furthering the intensity of these protests. And look, I give all three of them great courage for standing up for what they believe in and standing up for what they want to see in terms of enacting legislation. But many people know and Bakari knows this, having been in the legislature, in order to affect change and have meaningful legislative outcomes, you need to have common ground, you need to have communication, you need to have civil discourse on these issues.

And in order to change legislation, you have to change hearts and minds and make meaningful legislation. And I truly believe if these three had - tried to have meaningful conversations with all of the legislature about meaningful ways to reform gun violence, that could have been helpful and certainly would have made progress, unfortunately, this is still the first of what I see many, many more conversations from the three of these people.

ACOSTA: And Bakari, what do you see in terms of this being an assault on democracy at the state level in Tennessee? Did you view it that way? I know a lot of folks in the Democratic Party, they see sort of a rollback of, I guess, democratic procedures taking place in state houses across the country. Is that what you saw? Did you see some of that at play in Tennessee as well?

SELLERS: I did, Jim, and you know, people always want to say, I mean, as soon as we get off this segment, people are going to say, Bakari, why are you playing the race card on social media, it's going to go crazy. Well, you have to understand the dynamics of where we are in the south, you have to understand the dynamics of these young black men attempting to speak their truth to power.

You have to understand, the dynamics of what's at play in Nashville where you have these kind of Democratic epicenters of economic empowerment in Memphis, where these men represent. And so, when you put all of these things together, and you see the fact that the first thing they wanted to do was shut them up.

[18:35:03]

The first thing they wanted to do was tell them that boy you can't speak no more. Then you realize where we truly are. I mean, you think about Josh Hawley. I mean, people want to talk about decorum. You think about Josh Hawley raising his fist of power as he walks by insurrectionist. And Josh Hawley today is still a United States senator from the great state of Missouri.

Like people never thought about removing him from office. But we had young people gunned down in a school, let's put all of this in the context. We had young people, babies gunned down in a school. And these young people, these young black boys, men, excuse me, decided they were going to speak their truth to power about not having any more young babies gunned down and yet they eject them from their seats.

And so there's something else at play here. And I think what's at play is race, I think power dynamics are at play. And I think the erosion of democracy, as you said, Jim, is at play. And until we truly deal with these things, Donald Trump showed us that you can use racism as political currency, you can attempt to chip away and erode democracy. And then you can talk to people however you want to talk to him and still be politically successful in this country. That's the danger and that's why we understand democracy as fragile.

ACOSTA: And Alice, Bakari brings up a good point.

STEWART: Jim, if I could just - if --

ACOSTA: Sure, go ahead. Go ahead.

STEWART: No, if I can just say, having worked in the state house right across the border from Tennessee, in Little Rock, in the governor's office and seeing how legislative proceedings are carried out. There are rules, there are - there's procedural decorum that is necessary in order to make meaningful change to represent people all across the state and those that I've spoken would say when you violate those norms, there needs to be consequences and we need to have order in order to make change in the states.

And again, I can't say I commend these three for standing up for what they want to do, but the best way to have meaningful change and get back to the real topic at hand is the six innocent lives that were killed in the school shooting, how do we prevent this from happening. Let's hear from the Tennessee Three. Let's talk about red flag laws. Let's talk about hardening targets. Let's talk about --

ACOSTA: Yes.

STEWART: -- school resource officers. Let's talk about mental health. All of these ideas from legislators across the state of Tennessee in the country are important to have meaningful gun violence change.

ACOSTA: But Alice, I mean, didn't Marjorie Taylor Greene violate some decorum during the State of the Union speech for President Biden when she was shouting liar at him? I mean, she's done this to a couple of State of the Union's in a row and she wasn't kicked out.

STEWART: That - well, Marjorie Taylor Greene is on her own island and she has been kicked off committee assignments in the past. And look, I think there's a completely - there's a slightly different scenario, when she inappropriately and disrespectfully screams out at the President of the United States. I think that is absolutely completely wrong.

But this is a different situation. In my view, when you have legislators that have disrupted the legislative process for nearly an hour and were given the opportunity to say, all right, let's have conversations and we won't do that in the future. Well, that didn't happen, that's why these legislators in Tennessee made the decision they had.

ACOSTA: All right. Any last word from you, Bakari?

SELLERS: Yes, I mean, I think that - I mean, with respect to Alice and everyone else, we saw John Lewis, the great John Lewis take a seat on the state - on the floor of the United States Congress. We see these acts of civil disobedience happen all the time. It's civil disobedience. They broke no laws. They committed no crimes. They violated decorum in a general assembly, committed acts of civil disobedience. And yet you have lawmakers who actually violate real crimes, commit DUIs who beat their wives, et cetera, et cetera and they still get a chance to sit.

So let's actually add context to this and understand what they did in Tennessee was about race, was about power and was about eroding democracy. Shame on Tennessee.

ACOSTA: All right. Bakari Sellers, Alice Stewart, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

STEWART: Okay. Thanks, Jim.

ACOSTA: All right. Abortion could - once again wind up before the Supreme Court after two very different court rulings in two states. Next, a look at how abortion is affecting elections around the country and a programming note, what started with the disappearance of 20 people from a small town in Oregon ended with a largest suicide on U.S. soil. It changed the face of new age religion forever. Heaven's Gate: The Cult of Cults continues tomorrow night at 10 on CNN.

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[18:43:47]

ACOSTA: Opposing abortion rights court rulings in two states could wind up at the U.S. Supreme Court, but the abortion issue has been pushing people to the polls since the Supreme Court overturn Roe vs. Wade. CNN Senior Data Reporter, Harry Enten, joins us to run the numbers.

Harry, I mean, I suppose this is what we're going to see heading into the 2024 campaign. I mean, if you thought that this was all over with the Dobbs decision, that is - there's nowhere near going to be what takes place. How popular or unpopular do you think a decision to ban this medication abortion will be?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Massively unpopular. I mean, we rarely see polling like this. I was surprised I actually found a poll on this. But take a look here, the opposition to banning this particular abortion bill overall 70 percent. Look at Democrats 82 percent.

But I think the surprising number in here is the 53 percent of Republicans. You rarely see bipartisan support for something and you see it here with the opposition to a federal courts banning access to this particular abortion law. This is massively unpopular, Jim. There's just no other way to put it.

ACOSTA: And abortion rights have been on the ballot a number of times. We've seen it time and again since the Supreme Court overturned Roe versus Wade and the results are pretty clear every step of the way.

[18:45:07]

ENTEN: Universal - universal so the pro-abortion rights, look at all these different ballot measures that have taken place in a little less than a year since Dobbs went to effect. Look at here, Vermont not surprising, 77 percent. But look at that 52 percent in Kentucky, massively red state, 53 percent in Montana the pro-abortion rights.

ACOSTA: Wow.

ENTEN: Michigan 57 percent, Kansas 59 percent, California 67 percent, so this is a clear example where the polling matches with the ballot measure results whereby abortion rights simply put Jim are popular in this country and we see that over and over and over again at the polls and in the polls.

ACOSTA: And Democrats have, by and large, tried to turn that sentiment into electoral support and it's working for them, correct?

ENTEN: It's absolutely working for them. I mean, look, the fact of the matter is we had a massive midterm election last year, what happened? It was the best for the White House Party since 1934 if you average across gubernatorial races, Senate race and House races.

How about special elections in this particular year, right? Joe Biden's approval rating is like 41, 42, 43, 44 depending on what poll you're looking at, but the average candidate in the special elections and federal and state legislative are outperforming Biden 2020 performance by five points on average.

So the fact is, we saw it last year in the midterms, and we're seeing a continuation of that in the special elections this year, whereby the Democrats are just doing really well, despite Biden's popularity. It's quite something, Jim.

ACOSTA: And there was just a major election in a very important swing state where this issue played a prominent role, what can you tell us about that?

ENTEN: Yes. I mean, look, the fact is that the liberal candidate - the - officially in Wisconsin, the elections there are non-partisan, but the liberal candidate won in Wisconsin running on abortion rights by 11 points. She was backed by the Democrats. Compare that to Biden's performance in the presidential race in Wisconsin, he actually won by a little less than one point in Wisconsin.

So again, this massive over performance and why because abortion rights are in the news and these candidates are running on abortions, these liberal and Democratic back candidates, and it's working for them, Jim. I don't see that Democrats are going to stop running on abortion anytime soon and it will work for them at least according the results so far.

ACOSTA: All right. Harry Enten, thanks so much and be sure to check out --

ENTEN: Thank you.

ACOSTA: -- Harry's podcast, Margins of Error - yes, sir. Yes, indeed, it was nominated for a Webby Award this week, we should note. And you can vote for it at vote.webbyawards.com and vote for Harry.

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[18:52:01]

ACOSTA: Over 90,000 People are waiting for a kidney donation in the U.S., finding a donor is hard and making a match is even harder. Our next guest gave her own kidney to a woman she had never met.

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ALEKSANDRA GMURCZYK, NEPHROLOGIST, NORTHWESTERN MEMORIAL HOSPITAL: I have seen so many patients that need a kidney transplant. I cannot pick one - just one person because my head would bake for the other one. I just wanted to throw my kidney out into the pool and help someone who needs it.

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ACOSTA: Dr. Aleksandra Gmurczyk joins us now. Dr. Gmurczyk, thank you so much for joining us.

What pushed you to donate your kidney to someone you didn't even know?

GMURCZYK: So, I've wanted to donate for a very long time. It started about nine years ago. It started with a patient of mine that I had, a young woman about 31 or 32, who came to me with advanced kidney disease and she had just gotten married, she went to her gynecologist who drew some blood for just basic tests and the tests came back with really weak kidney function. We determined that she was going to be on dialysis very soon and I told her we need to start talking about dialysis options or transplant. The next time she came to see me she told me that none of her family members or friends came forward to donate. And my heart was just breaking for her because this young woman whose life was just starting, she wanted to get pregnant, have a baby and on dialysis it's extremely difficult to become pregnant and carry a pregnancy to term. And I just knew wouldn't be possible for her and my heart just broke for her.

And since then I was just thinking about donating. I wasn't sure if I could donate for a while because I have a history of bladder cancer. But since I haven't had a recurrence, I contacted our transplant team about two years ago and asked them could I be a donor. And they said since you haven't had any recurrences, you probably can.

So this November, I started the workup process and it turns out that I was a good donor --

ACOSTA: Yes.

GMURCZYK: -- and it happened really quickly. I got a surgery date in February and it happened.

ACOSTA: That's great. And you said that the hardest part of kidney donation is deciding to donate, what do people who may be reluctant to donate, what do they need to know?

GMURCZYK: So they need to know that any person who's healthy enough and has two kidneys, and healthy enough means they have no uncontrolled high blood pressure, no diabetes, no active cancer and they're just in pretty good health can be possibly be a donor and the transplant team does a really good job of determining whether you are a good donor or not.

[18:55:04]

So you don't need to be worried about anybody taking a kidney out of you if you're not a suitable donor. And at any point, you can say, no, you don't want to donate, you change your mind and your recipients will just find out that you're not a suitable match. So no questions asked. At any point, you can stop, because a lot of people are worried what if I start the process and then I can't get out of it, that's not true. You can always get out even up until you go to the operating room.

ACOSTA: That's good.

GMURCZYK: So a lot of people can be donors and you don't have to be a family member, you don't even have to have the same blood type. Because there are kidney paired exchanges, where you can swap the kidneys with donor recipient match - pairs and you can still donate.

ACOSTA: Very good. Well, Dr. Aleksandra Gmurczyk, very kind of you to do what you did. You gave the gift of life, which is a very noble thing. And also best wishes to little - I think it's maybe is - maybe the dog right there on your lap, who was very good during this interview -- GMURCZYK: Yes.

ACOSTA: -- so thanks so much --

GMURCZYK: Yes, (inaudible) support.

ACOSTA: -- to both of you for your time. We appreciate it.

GMURCZYK: Thank you very much.

ACOSTA: Best of luck to you.

GMURCZYK: Thanks for having me.

ACOSTA: Thank you, Doctor. Thanks for your time.

All right. Meanwhile, two black lawmakers kicked out of the Tennessee legislature because they protested for gun control, how they could get their seats back next, you're live on the CNN NEWSROOM.

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