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Abortion Pill Battle; Tennessee Governor Unveils Plan to Strengthen Gun Laws; Louisville Bank Shooting Investigation. Aired 1- 1:30p ET

Aired April 11, 2023 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN BUSINESS POLITICS AND TECHNOLOGY REPORTER: On Friday night at his ancestral home on the west coast of Ireland, so a lot to look forward to this week.

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: See if you can kick him up the coast a bit to County Galway and Connemara. That's where the kings come from, my friend.

Enjoy your visit. Enjoy -- enjoy being home, my good friend.

O'SULLIVAN: Thanks, John.

KING: And thanks for your time on INSIDE POLITICS today. We will see you tomorrow.

Abby Phillip picks up our coverage right now.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Abby Phillip in Washington.

One minute of carnage. Today, authorities in Louisville have a much clearer picture of how and -- how quickly yesterday's bank shooting played out. And they revealed that the gun that was used was purchased legally just a few days ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACQUELYN GWINN-VILLAROEL, LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY, METRO INTERIM POLICE CHIEF: We have learned that the suspect in this incident was a current employee with Old National Bank.

We have also learned that he purchased the weapon used in this tragic incident on yesterday on April the 4th. He purchased the weapon legally from one of the local dealerships here in Louisville.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: We also know that the gunman livestreamed the attack on Instagram.

And CNN has learned that video shows him strolling into the bank brandishing an AR-15-style weapon. He was greeted with a "Good morning" from a co-worker, and then he shot that same woman in the back. He killed five people and left several others in the hospital that day.

And he did it in the time it will take me to read this script to you. And after that horrific minute, he stopped and sat in the lobby for roughly 90 seconds just waiting. When police arrived, he engaged in a shoot-out and was killed. The question now is, why did this happen?

A key 911 call released today may shed light on the attacker's mind- set.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: Twenty-five-year-old White male, Connor Sturgeon, 6''4'. He's texted a friend, called a friend, left a voice-mail saying he's going to kill everyone at the bank. Feeling suicidal.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PHILLIP: CNN's Omar Jimenez is on the scene for us.

So, Omar, we saw some of the just incredible and very understandable emotions from these Louisville officials in that last hour or. So many people touched by the shooting knew many of the victims.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Abby, I mean, you get the sense of how tight-knit a community not just Louisville is, but, of course, in the surrounding area as well.

The overall sentiment that we got from public officials was that they are tired, we are tired as a community, so to speak, not just about this particular event, but the mayor here made a point to say that there are now 40 people that have been killed so far this year in Louisville, that, just after this happened, minutes, not too long after and not too far away, another man was gunned down, saying that, of course, this is a tragedy, but that tragedy has been happening all around us for quite some time.

Now, in regards to some of what these folks were saying, take a listen to the chief medical officer at the University of Louisville Health Hospital here, who has been caring for some of those that were injured, on how he has been processing what has been a very traumatic time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. JASON SMITH, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, UNIVERSITY OF LOUISVILLE HEALTH: To be honest with you, we barely had to adjust our operating room schedule to be able to do this. That's how frequent we are having to deal with gun violence in our community.

I will tell you personally, I'm weary. I have been in Louisville for 15 years, all of it at University Hospital. For 15 years, I have cared for victims of violence and gunshot wounds. And people say I'm tired, but I will be -- answer. It's more than tired. I'm weary.

There's only so many times you can walk into a room and tell someone they're not coming home tomorrow. (END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: And for those officials too, I mean, there's only so many times you can walk in and tell someone they're not coming home tomorrow.

The mayor pleading for some sort of policy change at the state level, a congressman there as well pleading for some sort of change at the federal level as well. We also learned details about the timeline of how this unfolded, that it was nine minutes in total from when the gunman first started shooting to when he was killed.

Basically, police arrived three minutes after the first 911 call. But, as you mentioned before coming to me, the shooting itself happened within the span of just a minute. Yet, in that time, five people were killed, eight others injured -- Abby.

PHILLIP: Yes.

And it's hard for me to even forget what that doctor was saying, that they didn't even have enough blood to deal with all the victims that they received and the horrendous injuries that they had.

Omar Jimenez, thank you very much.

Let's now bring in CNN law enforcement analyst Charles Ramsey and CNN law enforcement analyst Jonathan Wackrow.

[13:05:01]

So, Chief Ramsey, we're learning this gun was purchased legally last Tuesday, just before the attack. This is a familiar story, legally purchased weapons in the hands of people who are a danger to themselves and others. What does it tell you?

CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I mean, it's not surprising that it was purchased legally. We see that more and more as we discuss these particular types of incidents.

And it's going to continue to happen. It's not going to change because our laws don't change. And we're not taking any kind of steps to keep guns out of the hands of people who should not have them. So either they're buying them legally, or they take one out of the home because it's not secured.

I mean, just time and time again, this is what we see. And we act as if somehow it's going to change. It's not going to change. The only thing that's going to change is the location of where the next mass shooting will take place, because there will be another one.

PHILLIP: And, Jonathan, I want to talk to you about this video that we are expecting later today.

What are you going to be looking for as we see some of the body camera footage from the event yesterday?

JONATHAN WACKROW, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, listen, I think there are two videos that are really of concern right now.

What we will see when we watch the law enforcement body-worn camera videos is heroic acts. We're going to see officers going to the sound of gunfire in addressing a threat, not concerned about their own safety, but the safety of the community at large in putting that threat down. We have now seen that time and time again.

Law enforcement practices this -- this active shooter exercise continuously. I mean, when you think about the time to response was only 180 seconds by the Louisville Police Department, those first officers on scene, that is a remarkable response time.

And their actions saved additional lives by engaging in the threat and putting it down. The second video is going to be the livestream video. And that, to me, is going to be a little bit more telling, because we may hear from the shooter's own voice what he was saying or commanding or yelling in the moment.

It may give a little bit more line of sight as to what the motive was. That coupled with the note that we know that was left behind will start aiding investigators and putting together what exactly the motive was. Why did this happen, and, more importantly, how do we look at indicators that can help prevent this tragedy from happening in the future?

PHILLIP: Yes.

And, Chief Ramsey, that livestream video that Jonathan was just talking about, first of all, that's incredibly disturbing that that would have even been livestreamed. But, secondly, it seems to show that the shooter stopped at a certain point and seemed to wait for law enforcement to arrive on the scene. What do you make of that?

RAMSEY: Well, I mean, personally -- and I have to say this -- I hope they don't show the livestream video. I mean, that just gives this guy or some idiot that's watching this an incentive to go out and do the same thing.

I mean, we can talk about it, but I don't think it should be shown, personally.

But this 90 seconds where he's sitting in the lobby, that's suicide by cop. I mean, here's the guy who clearly is a coward. I mean, how much courage does it take to walk into a bank with an AR-15 and gun down a bunch of unarmed people or go into a school and kill a bunch of kids and their teachers?

I mean, these folks are cowards, and he didn't have enough courage to take his own life. He's waiting for the police to come and do it for him. And so this is very, very disturbing. I know they want to put as much information out as possible, transparency, but there are some things that I think we should really think hard about, because it could just really just be an incentive for the next person.

And there is somebody who's watching now who's thinking about doing the same thing again. And I just think we need to be careful about what we show what and what we do with these folks.

PHILLIP: So, Jonathan, after these mass shootings, I mean, there was just one that we were covering two weeks ago, yesterday, and we hear about hardening targets.

Here was Senator Ted Cruz just a few days after that Nashville shooting talking about that idea.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): When you go to the bank, and you deposit money in the bank, there are armed police officers in the bank. Why? Because we want to protect the money we save.

Why on earth do we protect a stupid deposit more than our children?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: This was, in fact, a bank. And, within a minute, 60 seconds, five people who were shot were killed. Many others were shot as well.

I mean, what do you make of that argument? Does that still work in this kind of environment?

WACKROW: Well, here, I mean, listen, you have to look at the very specific event here, the threat.

The shooter worked at that location. They took that path of least resistance. There was no resistance on allowing that threat into that environment and then having them engage right away in active killing.

[13:10:07]

So, again, you can't take just a broad approach to addressing this issue. This is going to actually take a whole-of-community approach. I go back to when this weapon was purchased on April 4. I want to know, was the shooter committed to murder at that point?

Listen, along the behavioral continuum, it is not normal for somebody to wake up and say, I'm going to walk into my place of employment and shoot my co-workers who I have been working with for years. There were red flags. There were warning signs that preceded that incident.

We have to get smarter on identifying those warning signs, and then intervening early to address those types of behavioral anomalies, so we don't transcend into these violent acts. And I also want to go back to a point that Chief Ramsey had made. We can't glorify this shooter and their action by releasing that video.

There's always a concern by law enforcement of copycat attacks. We have seen it time and time again. But we have to learn from that video, extract from it what we can, again, all with the aim of preventing this in the future.

PHILLIP: Yes, I mean, I -- your point is well-taken. This will take a multifaceted approach. Chief Ramsey, before we go, we have a brand-new survey here on gun

violence. But I bet this data is not going to be that surprising to you, as a former big city police chief. Nearly one in five adults has a family member killed by a gun. One in five adults has been personally threatened with a gun. One in six adults has witnessed an injury from shooting.

This is taking a broad toll on the American public. And, again, cities know this, because these big, traumatic incidents that we are covering today are the ones that get a lot of headlines, but it's the day-to- day violence that's killing the most people.

RAMSEY: It is the day-to-day violence.

I mean, during my career, I have been to thousands of homicide scenes. I mean, I was 47 years of active service, Chicago, D.C., Philadelphia, cities that, unfortunately, have experienced a lot of gun violence. It has a tremendous impact on the community, but it also has an impact on our cops.

I mean, going into these crime scenes is not normal. And that builds up over time, the psychological trauma that our officers feel every single day they go to work. It's not just threats toward them. It's just what they see and what they observe, homicides, children being raped or killed. I mean, it is tough.

And if we don't get serious about mental health and about protecting people's mental health, then we're just going to spiral downward, and it's not going to stop.

PHILLIP: It's such an important point.

Chief Charles Ramsey and Jonathan Wackrow, thank you both very much.

And turning now to the city of Nashville, another community reeling from a recent mass shooting, and it is also having major political repercussions there too. So, right after the Covenant shooting, three Democrats protested for gun laws, stricter gun laws, on the Statehouse floor, and it costs two of them their jobs.

But, last night, one of them, Justin Jones, he got his seat back. And so now Jones is back in that GOP-dominated House chamber that kicked him out. And at the same time, today, state -- the state's Republican governor has taken action to strengthen the state's very permissive gun regulation.

CNN's Isabel Rosales is in Nashville for us.

So, Isabel, what are you hearing from the governor about what he is about to do?

ISABEL ROSALES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Abby, shortly after the Covenant School shooting, which killed six people, including three 9-year-old little kids, we heard from Governor Bill Lee. He said that he was open to passing a red flag law. Well, today, Abby, he is officially calling on the General Assembly to

do exactly that, to pass a law that would empower law enforcement to go to a judge and, if someone, through due process, is deemed to be a danger to themselves or to others, the judge can sign off for their guns to be seized temporarily.

The governor is also announcing that he will sign an executive order that will strengthen the background checks when it comes to a gun purchase. Listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. BILL LEE (R-TN): First, I'm asking the General Assembly to bring forth a new order of protection law. Our current law is proven and effective in many circumstances -- in many circumstances, especially with regard to domestic violence.

But this new stronger order protection law will provide the broader population cover, safety from those who are in danger to themselves or to the population. We should work to set aside our differences and accomplish something that Tennesseans want us to get accomplished.

[13:15:08]

Nothing is more important than the safety of Tennesseans and certainly the safety of Tennessee children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROSALES: By the way, per Tennessee law, it will be Governor Lee who will have to schedule a special election to fill those vacant District 52 and 86 seats.

Despite Justin Jones being -- by the Metro Council, being sent back to his job, that is as an interim successor, so he will still have to go through this special election.

We did hear from Jones yesterday, who says he plans to use his time at the Statehouse wisely. He's considered a new member. And, because of that, he says he can file 15 pieces of bills, legislation. And he plans for all of them to be related to gun reform. He tells CNN that he plans to file those bills by the end of this week -- Abby.

PHILLIP: All right, Isabel Rosales, thank you very much for that.

And now on to another major battle playing out across the country, the fight over access to a key abortion pill. How dueling court orders and a Justice Department appeal and cries from the health care industry are all shaping the potential showdown at the Supreme Court.

Plus, a judge in the Dominion lawsuit against FOX News just made some key rulings on what is allowed in court when the trial kicks off on Thursday. We will have those details ahead.

And the latest on Texas Governor Greg Abbott's plans to pardon a man convicted of killing a protester at Black Lives Matter demonstrations back in 2020.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:20:50]

PHILLIP: Less than a year after Roe v. Wade was struck down, the Supreme Court may now once again be on the verge of making a landmark decision on abortion rights.

Two recent conflicting federal court rulings over access to the abortion pill mifepristone, one by -- one by a Trump-appointed judge in Texas and the other by an Obama-appointed judge in Washington state, now, that has set up what could be another monumental Supreme Court ruling with major implications for millions of women nationwide.

So, joining me now is CNN senior Supreme Court analyst Joan Biskupic.

The -- Joan, this legal battle over access to the abortion medication, it's currently in front of the federal appeals court. And the question now is, is this inevitable that this will end up all the way at the Supreme Court?

JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SUPREME COURT ANALYST: Good afternoon, Abby. It's great to be with you.

Yes, I do think that this battle over the FDA's approval of the first drug in the two-part abortion medication protocol, whether it's valid or not, will go to the Supreme Court. But let me tell you, there's a matter of timing first. I will tell you about timing and substance.

The main ruling that has concerned the federal government and abortion rights advocates is the one that came out of Texas on Friday in which, as you said there, Judge Matthew Kacsmaryk rolled back the FDA's approval for mifepristone, saying that the studies that the government had used dating all the way back to 2000 to find that the drug was safe and effective were -- were flawed.

And he said that, as of this Friday, his ruling would take effect. So what has happened is, the Department of Justice on behalf of the FDA has gone to the Fifth Circuit regional court, as you mentioned, asking for a longer suspension of that judge's ruling, saying, let's -- let -- we're repealing this. Give us more breathing room, a longer suspension since -- beyond this Friday, so that appeals on the merits of this case can play out.

And the challengers to the FDA's approval, who Judge Kacsmaryk had sided with, have until midnight today to issue their response on -- how why they think that this ruling should take effect nearly immediately. Now, the Department of Justice has asked the judge to -- the Fifth Circuit to actually act by Thursday at noon, so that people know about access to this drug.

So you have got that kind of immediate timeline. And so what I think will likely happen is, I would think the Fifth Circuit would extend the pause. If it doesn't, it will go right away to the Supreme Court. But if it does give some time for the appellate court to hash out these issues, then it'll be a while.

And I think, when this issue does go to the Supreme Court, which it will eventually, we're going to see a likely another seismic ruling from the Supreme Court that will affect access to abortion. It will not be as consequential as the one that said that there are no longer any constitutional rights to abortion, as had been the law of the land for nearly 50 years.

But this case will affect abortion access in all the states where it does remain legal based on state laws. And that will be quite important, because one thing the Supreme Court said when it did eliminate constitutional -- the constitutional right to abortion was to say, we are not outlawing abortion nationwide. It's up to the individual states.

But if this lower court judge's ruling holds, it will no longer be up to individual states. It will be up to just the judiciary to once again eliminate rights.

PHILLIP: Yes, and we are coming up on a crucial couple of days here in this case.

BISKUPIC: That's right.

PHILLIP: Joan Biskupic, thank you very much.

And what Joan brings up is a really important part of this. When it comes to the safety of mifepristone, there's a lot to take into consideration, not just abortion. Here are some facts for you. It has been approved by the FDA since -- since the early 2000s, for 23 years.

And that FDA data shows that less than 1 percent of the women who take it have significant adverse effects. And a CNN analysis of FDA data found that the risk of death from another drug, penicillin, is four times greater than it is for this abortion medication.

[13:25:12]

The risk of death after taking another drug, Viagra, is nearly 10 times greater as well.

So, with me now is our senior medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen.

So, Elizabeth, can you take us through just how this drug is used, and also, just to note, not just for abortion care?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right.

These drugs are used also for miscarriage care. Sometimes, when a woman miscarries, it doesn't complete on its own, and so she needs medication to help. So when, the judges rule on these pills, they're also making rulings that affect women who are suffering miscarriages.

So let's take a look at these pills as they're used for abortions. Right now, more than 53 percent of abortions in the United States are done through pills. They're called medication abortion. So, more than half of abortions are not surgical. They're done through medications. So the two pills are mifepristone and misoprostol.

The ruling that came down from the Texas judge on Friday, that's the one that sort of questioned the FDA, that sort of overturned their decision and said, hey, a bunch of scientists and doctors spent months and years contemplating and studying whether this was safe enough to go on the market. As you said, it is safe.

But he said: I'm a judge, and I don't like it.

So, he said: I'm just going to take it away.

That's what happened on Friday -- Abby.

PHILLIP: And, Elizabeth, if patients are forced to just take the misoprostol drug alone, does that still work? What happens then?

COHEN: So, you know what, Abby? It's not FDA-approved, misoprostol is not FDA-approved to be used on its own for an abortion, but it still can be used. And it has been used, especially in other parts of the world.

But what doctors tell us is that, when you look on -- at the studies, it is not as effective, and also that it can have worst side effects, really unpleasant side effects, like very heavy bleeding and cramping and nausea, for example.

And so, when we talk to doctors, they say, look, yes, you can use it, but wouldn't you want for yourself, for your daughter, for your sister, wouldn't you want them to have the best treatment out there?

So, let's take a listen. I was speaking with Dr. Erika Werner, who is head of OB-GYN at Tufts Medical Center in Massachusetts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ERIKA WERNER, TUFTS MEDICAL CENTER: We train to try to keep people healthy, give them the most evidence-based care.

And this ruling really jeopardizes that. We're feeling demoralized. We're feeling scared for our patients. It's just really hard when you know you can't do the thing that is the safest for your patients.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: So, Dr. Werner and other physicians that I have spoken with over the past couple of days have said they're just disheartened. They know the best treatment for their patient, but, if this Texas ruling holds, they can't give it -- Abby.

PHILLIP: Elizabeth Cohen, that was all incredibly helpful. Thank you very much.

And now the fallout from this highly sensitive leaked U.S. intelligence document continues to grow, and why a key U.S. ally is now issuing a denial about its dealings with Russia.

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