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Interview with Presidential Candidate and Entrepreneur Vivek Ramaswamy; Fighting Rages in Sudan; Russia Launching 60 Air Strikes in Ukraine; U.S. Warns Russia on Nuclear Plant; Fox to Pay $797.5M to Dominion to Settle Defamation Case; The Battle Over Japan's Radioactive Wastewater. Aired 8:00-8:30a ET

Aired April 19, 2023 - 08:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: -- party, who and what were you referring to?

VIVEK RAMASWAMY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE, ENTREPRENEUR: I was referring to Joe Biden and his expression of wanting to put them back in chains dating back to Lyndon Johnson. I think Lyndon Johnson's so- called great society was one of the greatest misnomers in American political history where even back then, in the 1960s, 70 percent plus of black kids were born into the two-parent homes. Today, that number is less than 30 percent in the opposite direction.

The very policies that we implemented in this country in the name of helping black Americans have actually been disastrous for black Americans and all Americans, and I think that that's something that we need to wake up to.

HARLOW: In 1865, you're talking about the Black Codes, right?

RAMASWAMY: That's right.

HARLOW: Passed, enacted to make it a crime for a black person to carry a gun in the south.

RAMASWAMY: Exactly.

HARLOW: But you're equating that to the current president, you're referring to economic change? What are you saying?

RAMASWAMY: Well, I was referring to Joe Biden's, I think, ill-chosen expression to say, they are the party that wants to put you back into chains. What I'm actually saying is that if you look at the policies of the modern Democratic Party --

HARLOW: You just said that about Democrats.

RAMASWAMY: Absolutely. So, what I'm saying is that actually it's policies like that of Lyndon Johnson and Joe Biden that are actually holding black Americans back.

HARLOW: Lyndon Johnson's war on poverty? RAMASWAMY: Yes. And in particular, his great society where he actually created incentives in the family where if you're a family, you could actually get more money by not having the father in the home. Guess what you get, you get what you pay for.

HARLOW: One of --

RAMASWAMY: And I think it's been really bad for the black community. I think it's really bad for all Americans.

HARLOW: What -- do you have anything on this before I move on to China.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: I just -- I don't see what one has to do with the other, but go on. I took up a lot of time with Fox.

HARLOW: No. It's fine. We have time.

LEMON: I don't really see what one has to do with the other, especially consider -- and using the civil war to talk about black Americans. That war was not fought for black people to have guns. That's not --

RAMASWAMY: That war was fought for black people to have freedoms in this country.

LEMON: Yes.

RAMASWAMY: Actually. That's why the civil war was fought.

LEMON: OK.

RAMASWAMY: And the sad part about it --

LEMON: But that wasn't fought for black people to have guns. I think --

RAMASWAMY: Actually, you know, the funny fact is black people did not get to enjoy the other freedoms until their Second Amendment rights were secured. And I think that that's one of the lessons --

LEMON: In fact, that black people still aren't allowed to enjoy the freedoms --

RAMASWAMY: I disagree with you on that, Don. I disagree with that. And I think you're doing a disservice to our country by failing to recognize the fact that we have equality --

LEMON: When you are black skin and you live in this country, then you can disagree with me. But we're not. You mentioned in there that there are agree different shapes --

RAMASWAMY: Don, I think we have to be able to talk about these issues in the open, regardless of the color of our skin. Black Americans today, to say that -- compare that to 1865, in 1964 -- LEMON: I think for you to compare it to 1865 and 1964 is actually --

I think it's insulting to black people. It's insulting to me as an African American. I don't want to sit here and argue with you because it's infuriating for you to put that -- to put those things together. It's not right. You're telling of history is wrong. Your -- what your history --

RAMASWAMY: What part of the history was wrong? What part of the history was wrong?

LEMON: Well, you're thinking about history that the civil war was fought. You're making people think that the civil wars fought for black people, only for black people to get guns and for black people to have --

RAMASWAMY: The civil war was fought for black people in this country to get freedoms, a noble mission. And I think that --

LEMON: Yes, you're right.

RAMASWAMY: -- even after we succeeded --

LEMON: But the question --

RAMASWAMY: -- we had to actually secure those freedoms.

LEMON: -- to reduce it in a speech at the NRA to say -- you're making people think -- or you're trying to say that black people to get guns, that was the reason that you're there at the NRA, that was the reason for the civil war, I think that's reductive.

RAMASWAMY: It is a fact. It's not reductive, Don.

LEMON: And I think it's insulting. There are a whole --

RAMASWAMY: It is --

LEMON: -- in set for the civil war.

RAMASWAMY: Look, with due respect, I find your explanation reductive and actually insulting, including to black Americans to say that black people today compared to 1964, 1865 haven't made progress in part because of the freedoms we secured. And the Second Amendment was part --

LEMON: Black people -- hang on, please. I cannot keep a thought if you guys are talking to me in my ear. So, hang on one second. So, to say that that black people would -- say what you said again?

RAMASWAMY: Black people secured their freedoms after the civil war is a historical fact, Don. Just study it. Only after their Second Amendment rights were secured. That's a fact.

LEMON: Black people have not secured their freedoms after the civil war. That is not -- your -- you are discounting reconstruction. You're just counting a whole host of things that happened after the civil war when it comes to African Americans, including the whole reason that the civil rights movement happened is because black people did not secure their freedoms after the civil war, and that things turned around, people would try to change the freedoms that were supposed to happen --

RAMASWAMY: And you know how they got it? They got their Second Amendment rights, and they actually got -- the NRA played a big role in that. But today, Don --

LEMON: The NRA did not play a big role in that. That is a lie.

RAMASWAMY: Absolutely. They trained black Americans how to use firearms.

LEMON: That's a lie. That's not -- the NRA did not play a big role in that.

RAMASWAMY: This is just historical fact.

LEMON: It's not historical fact.

RAMASWAMY: But, Don, the part that I find --

LEMON: Just because you say it's historical fact --

RAMASWAMY: That part that I find insulting is when you say today, black Americans don't have those rights after we have gone through civil rights revolution in this country.

LEMON: The fact that I find insulting is that you are sitting here telling an African American about the rights and what you find insulting about the way I lived the skin I live in every day. And I know the freedoms that black and white --

RAMASWAMY: Here's where you and I have different point of view --

LEMON: -- that black people don't have in this country and that black people do have.

RAMASWAMY: Well, here's where you and I have a different point of view. I think we should be able to express our views regardless of the color of our skin. We should have this debate --

LEMON: I'm not saying you shouldn't express your views --

RAMASWAMY: --without me regarding you as a black man --

LEMON: -- but I think it's insulting that you're sitting here --

RAMASWAMY: -- but me regarding you as a fellow citizen. That's what I think we should see.

LEMON: -- whatever ethnicity you are, explaining to me --

RAMASWAMY: Whatever ethnicity --

LEMON: -- about what is like to be black in America.

RAMASWAMY: Whatever ethnicity.

LEMON: I'm sorry.

RAMASWAMY: I'm going to tell you what I am. I'm an Indian American. I'm proud of it. But I think we should have this debate, black, white, it doesn't matter.

LEMON: I think we should have this --

RAMASWAMY: On the content of the ideas.

LEMON: If you're going to do it, you should do it in an honest way and in a fair way. And what you're doing is not an honest and fair way. OK. But we appreciate you coming on. Thank you for that.

[08:05:00]

RAMASWAMY: With due respect, Don, I look forward to continuing that conversation.

LEMON: Thank you very much.

RAMASWAMY: Thank you.

LEMON: We'll continue the conversation.

RAMASWAMY: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you so much.

RAMASWAMY: Thank you, Poppy.

HARLOW: We'll talk about China next time --

RAMASWAMY: Yes. Talk about China.

HARLOW: -- you come back.

RAMASWAMY: Oh, thank you. Much to say. I'm declaring --

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MAX FOSTER, CNN HOST: Hello. You're watching CNN Newsroom. I'm Max Foster in London.

Just ahead, fighting rages in Sudan, hours after a ceasefire was supposed to take effect. The number of casualties is rising and half of the hospitals in the capital "out of action."

Then the U.S. issues a stark warning to Russia about American technology inside the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant.

Plus, Japan plans to release more than one million tons of treated wastewater from the Fukushima nuclear plant into the sea. But that's despite concerns from some. The government promises it is safe.

The deadly power struggle between the rival military factions in Sudan is now in its fifth day, with both sides accusing each other of violating an internationally brokered ceasefire. The temporary truce was shattered just hours after its scheduled start, which was on Tuesday.

Millions of civilians remain trapped in their homes, many of them running dangerously low on food and water. And one humanitarian group says half the hospitals in Khartoum are "out of action." CNN's Larry Madowo joins me live in Nairobi. What's the solution here? If this cease fire can't work, how's it going to end?

LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There's got to be some kind of ceasefire here, Max, because we're supposed to be the 20th hour of this 24-hour ceasefire, but it fell apart almost instantly as soon as it was declared. And now, both are either accusing the other of having violated it first, which has been the trend we've seen since Saturday when these clashes first broke out, both sides claimed the other attack them first.

But this is leading to a humanitarian crisis that's just getting worse. One aid organization, CARE, says about 15 million Sudanese people are in need of humanitarian assistance, 11 million are not even meeting the basic nutrition requirements. And this other aid organization, Medecins Sans Frontieres, or Doctors Without Borders, says that, right now, about half of the hospitals in the Capital of Khartoum are out of action. Some of them have been bombed. Some of them are just out of resources. They don't have people or medicines or equipment to continue doing this work. And in some cases, staff just can't get there. Doctors and nurses and other medical professionals are afraid of getting there. So, that is the reality.

The few that are operating are stretched to capacity. One of them received more, about 130, 140 wounded in just one day. At the same time, these two sides still no closer to a negotiation. And I want to show you one video we received from a Sudanese British author and activist who's trapped in Sudan. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROZAN AHMED, SUDENESE ACTIVIST: I can't put into words how mentally devastating this is. Our only ask as innocent civilians that are caught in this crossfire is for the RSF and the ASF to stop. Stop the war. Stop the violence. Find the grace to dialogue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MADOWO: Rozan Ahmed told CNN that yesterday, during what should have been the ceasefire, a missile hit the house next to her, and it burned to the ground. She says it's been a horror show in these past few days. And yet, all the mediation efforts so far by regional bodies, by the African Union Bay, the quartet, the U.S., the U.K., the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia have not borne fruit so far, Max.

FOSTER: OK. Larry, thank you. To Ukraine now where there has been a barrage of new attacks from the skies. Ukraine says Russia launched 60 airstrikes over a 24-hour period. Bakhmut remains the epicenter of the fighting. One serviceman says the city is now in tatters even as more shelling rains down.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DIMA, UKRAINE SOLDIER (through translator): The city looks more like ruins. There are almost no whole houses left. It's practically wiped out. They're shelling every day, and every day there are more and more ruins.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Ben Wedeman has the very latest from the front lines. He joins us from Eastern Ukraine. I mean, it must be in the final stages, this battle.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's what has been reported now for weeks, that it's in the final stages. But somehow, it goes on. The Ukrainians control, perhaps 25 to 30 percent of Bakhmut. But what we're seeing is some fairly intense battles. In fact, we were out in a town right next to Bakhmut yesterday and we heard steady, outgoing and incoming fire there.

[08:10:00]

Now, this fact that the Ukrainians are reporting around 60 air strikes in the last 24 hours is interesting because that really is an uptick in the amount of Russian air activity in that area. Now, we were yesterday with several anti-aircraft units of the Ukrainian army, and they're using weapons that date back to the 1970s. So, clearly, that's an area where they're desperately in need of more modern weapons.

In fact, today, the Ukrainians announced that a Patriot anti-missile system has been delivered by Germany. That's in addition to other Patriot missile systems that have been provided by the United States and the Netherlands. But when these things actually arrive on the frontlines is difficult, to say all of these new weapon systems come with the requirement that, of course, Ukrainian personnel be trained to use them as well. This is coming at a time when anticipation is growing about this, much talked about Ukrainian offensive.

But as you can see, it's raining here. When it's raining, the ground gets very muddy, and it's very difficult for even heavy tanks to move forward. So, when that offensive is going to happen is not at all clear, Max.

FOSTER: OK. Ben in Eastern Ukraine, thank you.

All this as the U.S. warns Moscow not to touch any American nuclear technology at a power plant in Ukraine that's under Russian control. In a letter sent to Russia's state-owned nuclear energy firm, Rosatom, the Rosatom, the U.S. Department of Energy has said there is technical data of American origin at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plants, and that such material is subject to U.S. export controls. Nada has been following this.

I mean, it's a letter they've sent to the Russians in control of the site. But are they going to take any notice whatsoever?

NADA BASHIR, CNN REPORTER: Well, that remains to be seen. Of course, it's not expected that they will. This is a power plant, which is operated by Ukrainian staff, but crucially, it is managed by that Russian state-owned nuclear energy firm, Rosatom. And it's also, of course, falls under territory that is now under the control of the Russian armed forces. So, it is very difficult to even verify the facts on the ground around the Zaporizhzhia power plant.

We have seen in the past, the power plant actually becoming disconnected on multiple occasions from the Ukrainian national grid as a result of Russian shelling, and that has really stoked concern and fear across Europe, and indeed, in the U.S., around the possibility of a nuclear accident.

Now, of course, the U.S., in this letter, which has been reviewed by CNN, this is coming from the Department of Energy in the U.S. saying that the plant contains U.S. origin nuclear technical data that is export controlled by the U.S. government. So, that means it would be unlawful for any Russian citizens or Russian entities to handle this technology. And of course, this is a huge priority and huge concern for the U.S. government.

FOSTER: But it suggests, doesn't it, that it could be used for weaponry?

BASHIR: Well, that is the concern.

FOSTER: It is -- be exported.

BASHIR: Absolutely. And it's something that would undermine the U.S.'s security interest. That is the reason why they put these clauses in places. And so, of course, with Russia now potentially having its hands on this technology, this U.S. origin technology, that will be a huge concern, not only for the Department of Energy, but for the U.S. government as a whole and NATO.

FOSTER: OK. Nada, thank you.

In the coming hours, Andrew Lester will hear the charges against him. He's the Kansas City man who shot a teenager who accidentally came to his door looking for siblings. Lester is currently out of bail -- out on bail and faces assault and armed criminal action charges. Meanwhile, Ralph Yarl is out of hospital. A GoFundMe page set up to help with medical expenses for the 16-year-old has raised more than $3 million in donations.

New York City investigators are trying to figure out what caused the parking garage to collapse on Tuesday. One person was killed and five were injured when the four-story structure gave way. Firefighters used a robots and drones to search the building for any survivors because of safety concerns. The man who shot this video said he heard a boom then a rumble and saw cars being swallowed up from his window. At least 29 people were killed when a fire tore through a Beijing hospital. That's according to the local district government, which says all but three of the victims were patients. Investigators believe a spark ignited some combustible paint in the part of the hospital being renovated.

Fox News reached a last second settlement, really, in the Dominion Voting Systems case later on Tuesday, just as the defamation trial was set to begin. The media network will pay more than $787 million to Dominion and acknowledged that the court's findings that it -- had untrue claims about Dominion. And the 2020 presidential election is the largest known publicly disclosed defamation settlement in U.S. history involving a media company.

[08:15:00]

For more on this story after the break. We'll be looking at what Fox will tell their viewers about this and the long list of lawsuits that are actually still on the table.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FOSTER: The cost of spreading false claims about the 2020 presidential election is a massive one for Fox News. The media giants settled with Dominion Voting Systems yesterday to the tune of $787.5 million. The 11th hour deal came just hours before opening statements were due to begin. Dominions lawyers said it was a victory for truth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUSTIN NELSON, DOMINION VOTING SYSTEMS LAWYER: The truth matters. Lies have consequences. Over two years ago a torrent of lies swept Dominion and election officials across America into an alternative universe of conspiracy theories, causing grievous harm to Dominion and the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Well, it's big news everywhere, except on Fox News itself. CNN has learned the network won't make an on-air apology to their viewers. Fox's statement after the settlement included a rare admission and some defiance as well, "We acknowledge the court's rulings finding certain claims about Dominion to be false. And this settlement reflects Fox's continued commitment to the highest journalistic standards."

Certainly not the end of the matter. Both Fox News and Dominion have more lawsuits pending.

Let's speak to CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig. He joins us from New York to discuss. Thanks for joining us again, Elie.

First of all, was this an admission of guilt? I mean, how do you read that statement from Fox?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's not an admission of criminal guilt, Max, but it is, to me, an admission certainly of liability here. First of all, they have paid a remarkable settlement here. This is unprecedented in U.S. history to see a settlement as large as $787.5 million.

Now, their statement that you just read, that is clearly a heavily lawyered up statement. But what they're referring to there is a finding by the judge on the record that as a matter of law, Fox News' reporting on this was false. And now, Fox News has acknowledged that, I don't know how they could choose not to acknowledge it, it did happen, but that's a significant concession.

FOSTER: In terms of what's happening next, I mean, what are the other cases we're looking at? Because this isn't the end of it, is it? And what are you looking at next from Fox News' point of view, first of all?

HONIG: Yes. Fox News has another big problem to contend with, that's a lawsuit, also for defamation by a separate voting company called Smartmatic. I think Smartmatic was the big winners yesterday.

[08:20:00]

I think they had to see this number and their eyes must have just lit up because, to me, there's no way strategically and tactically, if your Fox News, that you're going to pay so much money to Dominion to avoid trial and then go through with the trial with Smartmatic. So, if I'm Smartmatic now, I know they're going to settle and I know they're going to pay up in a big way.

FOSTER: There will be negotiation, and there's some, you know, speculation that part of this negotiation on Fox's side was not having to make an on-air correction. Is that how you read it?

HONIG: Yes. I think that likely was in play, at least for part of the negotiation. And this is the negotiated settlement that Dominion and Fox reached. I think it's important to understand though, even if Dominion had gone through with the trial, and even if Dominion had gotten a favorable verdict from the jury, a verdict doesn't come with an apology. Fox never would have apologized if this had gone through the trial.

Dominion is a small to midsize company here in the United States. They're privately owned. They have about 250 employees. The entire value of the whole company is well under $100 million. So, the payout they got here is about 10 times or so the amount that the entire company is valued at.

FOSTER: And what are the other cases Dominion will be following up with?

HONIG: Yes. So, Dominion has sued various other people alleging defamation. They have sued Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell, Mike Lindell, all three of whom are sort of ardent Trump supporters who spread this lie. So, they've got more to go. They also have sued other sort of more obscure but also more extreme news networks, including "Newsmax" and "AON." So, Dominion's not done with their lawsuits, either. FOSTER: OK. Elie, thank you very much for bringing us the insight on that.

Now, Japan plans to begin dumping more than a million tons of treated radioactive wastewater into the Pacific Ocean, and that's in the coming weeks. It was contaminated at the Fukushima nuclear plant, that was the disaster more than 12 years ago. Officials insist the water is safe to release, though. But fishermen aren't so sure. CNN's Marc Stewart talked to them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARC STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): It's just after nine in the morning. The crew of this ship is back import at the Onahama fishing village in Fukushima, Japan. Kenzaburo Shiga (ph) is a third- generation fisherman, starting in elementary school, going on trips with his father.

He told me he's happy on the boat, but he faces challenges. His catch is tested for radiation. That's because the port is around 40 miles from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

In 201, there was a meltdown here after a catastrophic earthquake and tsunami. For six years he couldn't fish, told to stay off the water. When he heard he couldn't fish, he was sad, disappointed the ocean was off limits.

STEWART (on camera): 12 years later, fishermen faced yet another challenge. Treated wastewater that accumulated inside the plant will soon be released into the ocean, a threat to their reputation and way of life.

STEWART (voiceover): He says the decision made his blood boil. He wonders why the government made the decision without the consent of the fishermen. At the time, the prime minister said it had to be done to decommission the plant.

We wanted to see the plant for ourselves and we were allowed to after agreeing to a strict safety protocol.

STEWART (on camera): This is as close as we can get to reactors one through four. The cleanup work here will take at least 20 more years.

STEWART (voiceover): We also saw a lab where fish are tested. And lots of construction on the water treatment facility.

STEWART (on camera): Let me show you the tanks behind me row after row, enough to fill about 500 Olympic swimming pools. The treated water will be let go gradually through a tunnel that will take it off shore and then eventually into the ocean.

STEWART (voiceover): According to the plant operator, Tokyo Electric Power Company, the water has been treated by taking out most of the radioactive particles. It's then deluded with seawater, taking it to a level much lower than the World Health Organization's clean drinking water standard. An official from the utility told us he recognizes there's distrust because of the past, but they're listening to concerns. He knows not everyone will accept their plan, but points out support they're getting from third-parties such as the International Atomic Energy Agency. Still, neighboring countries have expressed concern.

STEWART (on camera): Is there a public health risk by releasing this water?

IAN FAIRLIE, RADIOACTIVE CONSULTANT: Yes. There is a public health risk, and it's relatively low, but the risk exists. I think that they should store the water so that it decays naturally.

[08:25:00]

STEWART (voiceover): While other options were considered, this was seen as the best plan as tanks near capacity.

Japan's Pacific coast has been a point of pride and promise for fishermen like Kenzaburo (ph). He says he doesn't know what will happen, but hopes leaders won't work against the fishermen.

The water release is expected to begin by this summer, bringing with it more years of anxiety and uncertainty.

Marc Stewart, CNN, Fukushima, Japan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Cuba's National Assembly will choose its next president in his cabinet in the coming hours. It's widely expected to give President Miguel Diaz-Canel a second five-year term in office, despite of rocky first term marked by the pandemic and economic crisis. Diaz- Canel was elected in 2018 succeeding Raul Castro, brother of the revolutionary, Fidel Castro.

A milestone for India. It's poised to overtake China as the world's most populous country. According to a U.N. report, India will have 3 million more people than China by the middle of this year. That adds up to more than 1.4 billion people. Both nations combined will account for more than a third of the entire global population.

Before we go, it's the end of an era for Netflix. After 25 years, the streaming giant will bid farewell to its DVD rental service. No more red envelopes in the mail. The change will kick in in September. And Netflix says it will finally move forwards with its rollout of its paid account sharing options sometime in the second quarter. This is in response to all the password sharing amongst subscribers. Netflix shares fell about 6 percent on Tuesday.

Thanks for joining me here on "CNN Newsroom." I'm Max Foster in London. World Sport with Amanda is next.

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[08:30:00]