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Supreme Court Rules that Abortion Medication Mifepristone Can Remain Available While Appeals Process for Lower Court Ruling that Reversed FDA Approval Plays Out; OBGYN Discusses Possible Health Care Implications of Ending Availability of Mifepristone; Eighteen Attorneys General Pushing for Federal Recall of Hyundai in Kia Vehicles Due to Ease of Theft. Aired 10-11a ET

Aired April 22, 2023 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:00]

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN ANCHOR: I don't know if that's true. But if that's true, that's outrageous. But I'm not ready to reimagine incarceration for violent offenders, those like my buddy John Timmidy (ph) said, or the guys who are, and they are guys, committing all the crime. No, not for them.

Hey 9:00 this week I'm guest hosting here on CNN. And I hope that you'll be watching, Monday through Thursday this week 9:00 p.m. Have a great day.

AMARA WALKER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. It is Saturday, April 22nd. I'm Amara Walker.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Victor Blackwell, and you're in the CNN Newsroom.

WALKER: We begin this morning with the battle over abortion. The widely used abortion drug mifepristone will remain available to women in the U.S. without restrictions, at least in those states where abortion remains legal. This follows a ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court last night. The decision protects access to the drug at least until the appeals process plays out. But the protection could ultimately be taken away again.

BLACKWELL: A lower court ruling in Texas earlier this month suspended government approval of the 23-year-old drug. It's the latest in a series of moves against abortion rights.

CNN Supreme Court reporter Ariane de Vogue is with us now. So the decision stands in the hands in the Biden administration. They got a big win, also for abortion rights community, a major victory. But the battle is not over.

ARIANE DE VOGUE, CNN SUPREME COURT REPORTER: Right. The Biden administration is relieved today, right, because those lower courts put in these restrictions, significant restrictions on this key abortion drug. The Biden administration and manufacturers raced to the Supreme Court and said, look, put those lower court opinions on hold for now while the appeals process plays out because the appeals process could take months, and the Supreme Court last night agreed to do so.

So what that means is that for right now, this abortion drug is widely available in the states that allow abortion, and all the moves that the FDA has made in recent years to ease access to this drug also remain in place. So there will be a generic version still available. Women can access it up to 10 weeks of pregnancy. There is an option to get it by mail. All that stands for right now.

It would have taken five justices to grant this request for the Biden administration, but we actually don't know how the other conservative justices voted here. All we know is Justice Samuel Alito and Justice Clarence Thomas were in dissent. And Justice Samuel Alito, he explained his thinking a little bit. He said that he did not think that these patients would be harmed for now if the restrictions were left in place because the appeals process is going to continue.

So what happens next is this case goes back to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. It has already scheduled arguments for mid-May. It will really dig into the merits of the case and issue an opinion. Because that court is so conservative it is very likely then that this case is going to land back at the Supreme Court, and then the justices will be able to really dig into the case, really look into the merits, and ultimately issue of fulsome opinion on their own.

WALKER: And Ariane, this is the same court just last summer that overturned Roe v. Wade in this decision basically sided with the FDA. So does this ruling signal any kind of shift in mindset?

DE VOGUE: It doesn't signal a shift from that opinion. And let me explain why. I think most of the justices are looking at this particular case not from the lens of abortion, but from the lens of the FDA's authority to approve drugs, not just this pill, but all drugs. And they might look at it and wonder about judges stepping in and questioning the authority of the FDA for a drug that was approved some 20 years ago and has been used by millions of women.

In addition, the conservative justices on this court have heard from big drug companies that were really worried about that lower court opinion because they felt like you know if one judge could block this drug, what about other drugs? So it is a case really where they're going to look at the agency's authority.

But as you said, the decision last night does come just a year after the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade. It is going to now percolate through the lower court again. But for now, that abortion drug will remain widely available in the states that allow abortion.

BLACKWELL: Ariane de Vogue with reporting for us, thank you very much.

[10:05:00]

CNN's Isabel Rosales is joining us now. Listen, we could forgive the viewer who is a bit confused about where abortion rights stand in this country because it is a patchwork after the end of Roe. Where do things stand now as we look across the country?

ISABEL ROSALES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this ruling certainly proves that when it comes to abortion access, this fight is not going anywhere. And you mentioned a patchwork system. That is exactly what we're seeing on the ground since the overturning of Roe v. Wade, largely leaving abortion policy to the states. So in Democratic led states, we still see it largely being available, the abortion procedure. But in Republican led states and red states, we're seeing outright bans or severe limitations. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

ROSALES: Summer of 2022, Dobbs v. Jackson, the Supreme Court reverses the constitutional right to an abortion upheld for nearly a half- century. Across the nation intense backlash and scrutiny follows.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Abortion bans are illegitimate, forced motherhood is illegitimate.

ROSALES: Justice Samuel Alito, writing for the court majority, called the original 1973 Roe v. Wade ruling egregiously wrong. Ripples from the Dobbs decision are felt across the country as so called trigger laws take effect in about a dozen states, banning or severely limiting abortion. In states like Mississippi, Texas, and Oklahoma Republican controlled state legislatures race to outlaw the procedure.

CROWD: We won't go back! We won't go back!

ROSALES: Legal fights commence over abortion access. Some state supreme courts, like in South Carolina, step in and block abortion bans. In other states, the highest courts rule the bans complying with their state constitutions. Meanwhile, others like South Dakota widen the scope, passing a law prohibiting the use of telemedicine to administer medication abortion.

Midterm elections.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to have to make it a federal right.

ROSALES: Voters in many states reject the most extreme versions of abortion bans. In California, Michigan, and Vermont voters enshrined the right to abortion in their state constitutions. State legislatures return to session. Some states move forward on more restrictive measures. Just this month, in a first of its kind law, Idaho criminalizes out of state abortions for minors without parental consent, calling it abortion trafficking. And Florida Governor Ron DeSantis last week signed into law a ban against most abortions after six weeks. Opponents argue that's before many women know they're pregnant.

Nearly a year since overturning Roe v. Wade, another major decision on abortion access from the nation's highest court. The conservative majority court protecting access to a widely use abortion drug, mifepristone, by freezing lower court rulings that place restrictions on medication abortion. The order means that the U.S. Food and Drug Administration's approval of the drug will remain in place while appeals play out, potentially for months to come.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

ROSALES: And with the abortion medication, we're seeing the Fifth Circuit fast track this with first briefs due by next week. Then they're going to hear oral arguments by mid-May, then weeks to months after that, they're going to come up with a final decision. But as Ariane said, this could very well land right before the Supreme Court justices yet again. So this fight far from over.

BLACKWELL: Isabel Rosales, thank you.

WALKER: Thank you, Isabel.

Joining me now is Dr. Sadia Haider, an OBGYN at Rush University Medical Center in Chicago. Good morning to you, Doctor, and thank you so much for joining us. I assume you're relieved this morning, but you must have put some work into a backup plan if mifepristone had been banned or restricted. Can you talk about that?

DR. SADIA HAIDER, OBGYN, RUSH UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: Yes, absolutely. We certainly are relieved to see that this decision has been sort of held for the moment. We have been planning for some time now to think about what we would do if mifepristone was taken away as critical and essential medication in reproductive healthcare. We use it for not only medical abortion, but miscarriage management as well, and other uses in women's health is commonly, mifepristone is commonly utilized for those reasons.

There's an alternative regimen with another medication that's also part of medical abortion called misoprostol. There is long standing evidence that that can also be used as an alternative. We have been planning to use that, if necessary, as a healthcare community. However, we know that that would ultimately be a less efficacious regimen. It also requires more counseling for patients and isn't the best scientifically based medical abortion regimen.

WALKER: Yes, I'm curious to know. Had you had to revert to this contingency plan, misoprostol, tell me a bit about what you would have told patients in terms of what it means, if it's less efficacious, if -- because this is supposed to be a part of a two-drug regimen, right?

[10:10:05]

First, it's mifepristone and then misoprostol. If you use misoprostol, could there be safety issues regarding that, or more pain, more cramping?

HAIDER: Yes, great question. You're correct, it's mifepristone, misoprostol together that are the scientifically, evidence-based, optimal regimen for medical abortion. The efficacy with that regimen is close to almost 99 percent depending on the gestational age of the pregnancy. With misoprostol alone the efficacy goes down closer to somewhere in the low 90s, 90, 92 percent, depending again, on how far along the pregnancy is. The other thing that we know is that there are more side effects.

There's a very, a lot of safety evidence from the global community in particular where misoprostol only medication abortion has been provided for decades, and we know it's very safe, just as safe as using mifepristone the misoprostol. But we do, we would have to counsel patients that they're slightly higher side effects that are not significant in terms of safety, but really just the patient experience. And it takes a longer time for that process to occur as well.

WALKER: You are at the front line of, I'm sure, that confusion that this legal battle has been causing. Tell me what you've been hearing from patients and what you've been telling them.

HAIDER: Yes, it's a great question. There's definitely a lot of confusion both for providers and patients, just the confusion and the chaos that it causes.

We are just telling patients that we're going to take a day to day and just follow what we are learning about the legal implications and the policy changes. But we are also telling patients that we will ensure that they have access to medical abortion with misoprostol only if needed. I think patients are concerned because there's so much changing policy around all of abortion, and there's a lot of fear.

WALKER: Yes, understandably. I do want to ask you a personal question, though, because I know as an OBGYN, I do have a couple of friends who are in the specialty. I know how stressful it is. I know that you don't get much sleep. You're constantly on call. It's a high liability position as a physician. Had you known that choosing this specialty would have waded you into unknown legal waters, would you have thought twice about going into this profession?

HAIDER: Yes. great question also. Actually, I actually chose to be not only an OBGYN but a family planning specialist, so I actually have done extra training to provide abortion care. I would not have thought twice. I think -- I'm shocked that this is happening in my lifetime. I'm shocked that this is playing out the way it is. I don't think any of us anticipated this when we were training.

However, I do strongly believe that we have to be able to provide this access to care and this essential healthcare. So no, I wouldn't have changed my personal choice about going into this profession, but I do think it's giving a lot of our trainees and other -- those who are in medical education currently pause, cause for pause, which is concerning for our workforce.

WALKER: What you say is true because, according to the Association of American Medical Colleges, they said that the applications for residencies, especially in the OBGYN, specialty, was down. So obviously there is a trend here, and people are thinking twice if not you. Dr. Sadia Haider, thank you so much for your time.

BLACKWELL: Ahead, they're unsafe and easy to steal. More than a dozen attorneys general call for federal recall of some Hyundai and Kia cars. We'll tell you which models. WALKER: Plus 250,000 gallons of sewage shuts down miles of coastline

in Long Beach, California. The latest from there.

BLACKWELL: And new reporting on two Trump operatives who considered using breached voting data to decertify Georgia's Senate runoff in 2021. We'll tell you what their text messages revealed.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACKWELL: Eighteen attorneys general are pushing for a federal recall of Hyundai in Kia vehicles. They say they're unsafe and easy to steal. The vehicles in question include 2015 to 2019 models.

WALKER: The vehicles were the subject of social media trends as thieves filmed themselves stealing the cars. Both companies say they are now offering software updates on some models, but the attorneys general say they're not doing enough.

CNN correspondent Polo Sandoval joining us now with more. Hi, Polo. So why is this coalition of prosecutors pushing for a recall?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They have repeatedly said that these two car manufacturers have repeatedly not taken steps to address what they're describing as this alarming rise in the theft of their vehicles. Just in California, in L.A. alone, rather, 85 percent increase in these kinds of vehicles. So that is why this coalition of attorneys general include 17 states, in addition to the District of Columbia, sent a letter to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, and in it the coalition is requesting this federal recalls because of what they described as unsafe Hyundai and Kia vehicles manufactured between 2011 and 2022, and this is key, they write, who's easily bypassed ignition switches and lack of engine immobilizers make them particularly vulnerable to theft. The vehicles such as the Hyundai Santa Fe and Tucson, as well as the Kia Forte and Sportage when equipped with turnkey ignitions, which is those vehicles that don't have that push button to start, that those are twice as likely to be stolen than other vehicles in similar age. So that's what's being highlighted here by the A.G.s.

[10:20:01]

Meanwhile, you do have the NHTSA that's responding, saying, look, this is outside the purview of what they usually oversee, that this is within the law enforcement purview. So it'll be interesting to see what happens there.

As for what these companies are saying, Hyundai saying that their vehicles are fully compliant with federal antitheft requirements. Kia adding that it's going to continue to roll out these free upgrades for the vehicles of their customers to try to help deal with the situation. But it really is just a massive potential impact here when you look at the numbers, possibly affecting 3.8 million Hyundais, 4.5 million Kias, a total of about 8.3 million cars. adding to that the concerns that you see on social media as you mentioned with some thieves record themselves or others using a USB cord and a screwdriver to make off with these cars. Don't ask me how, but it is out there, and that's why it is extremely concerning for authorities and for the top cops in multiple states.

WALKER: And the people who own or drive these cars, it is definitely concerning.

SANDOVAL: Absolutely.

WALKER: Polo Sandoval, good to see you. Thanks.

Still ahead, new reporting on to Trump operatives who considered using breached voting data to decertify Georgia's Senate runoff in 2021, what their text messages reveal.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:25:24]

BLACKWELL: Top stories this morning, seven miles of the public beach in Long Beach, California, have been closed because 250,000 gallons of sewage spilled into the Los Angeles River. Authorities blaming equipment malfunction. The L.A. sanitation district says a blockage caused an overflow of sewage. The crews finished their first round of cleanup on Friday. They have not said when the beach will be reopened.

WALKER: Police in Utah are looking for the person responsible for vandalizing a state senator's home. Republican Mike Kennedy posted this photo of the damage on Facebook Friday morning. Police say he was targeted and it was likely retaliation for a recent piece of legislation he sponsored on banning gender transitioning surgical procedures for minors.

BLACKWELL: The city of Uvalde has hired a new assistant police chief. Homer Delgado is the current chief of police in Dilley, Texas. He'll start in Uvalde in May. A local media report, the position was created in the months after the mass shooting at Robb Elementary which killed 19 students and two teachers. On that day, the police chief was out of town, and with no assistant chief, a lieutenant was placed in charge. But he failed to assume command on the day of the shooting. A preliminary report by the Texas House investigative committee described their approach by authorities as overall lackadaisical.

A former Manhattan prosecutor who once helped lead an investigation into former President Trump is scheduled to face questions from Congress next month. Mark Pomerantz will testify under oath before the Republican controlled House Judiciary Committee after its chairman reached a deal with Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg. Now a lawyer from the district attorney's office will be able to sit in on the deposition. Bragg sued to block Pomerantz from testifying, accusing GOP lawmakers of meddling in his office matters after it indicted Trump last month.

WALKER: An exclusive new CNN report is raising more questions about Donald Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election results in the state of Georgia. For the first time, text messages between two men working with the former president's legal team have been revealed.

BLACKWELL: In those messages, the operatives try to figure out what to do with data in a breached voting machine from a rural Georgia county, and whether that information could be used to try to decertify the state's Senate runoff in 2021. CNN's national security reporter Zach Cohen is here to discuss the new reporting. Zach, good to see you. What do the texts say? What does it all mean?

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Victor and Amara, these texts really show how two men that were working with Donald Trump's legal team, people like Sidney Powell, people like Rudy Giuliani, that they were talking two weeks after January 6th, after the Capitol riot, about how to use this data from a voting system that was breached in Coffee County, Georgia, which really is a rural Georgia county that voted overwhelmingly for Trump.

But this breach happened one day of their voting system, happened one day after the January 6th riot, and two weeks later, these two operatives that we're still working with Trump's legal team, we're talking about ways that they could use that data to produce a report that could ultimately be used to try to decertify the Georgia Senate runoff.

Now, if you take a look at these texts, they're very clear. It says, "Here's the plan. Let's keep this close hold" for now. It goes on to say, "We only have until Saturday to decide if we're going to use this report to try to decertify the Senate runoff election, or if we hold it for a bigger moment."

Now, the report is talking about is not just based on data related to one voting machine or a single ballot. They got access to the entire voting system in Coffee County, and the proposal that he's raising is producing a report that could be used in litigation potentially to try to decertify the Georgia Senate runoff results.

WALKER: So Coffee County, if it voted overwhelmingly for Trump in 2020, why were they looking for access to these particular voting systems there?

COHEN: Amara, the fact that it was an overwhelmingly Trump heavy county actually seemed to be part of a strategy that Rudy Giuliani himself outlined in an Oval Office meeting with Trump present about a month beforehand, and he said that this whole plan was about convincing election workers potentially sympathetic to this idea that voting machines can be hacked by Chinese satellites or Italian thermostats, and find them and get them to open the door and let these operatives into these restricted areas and give them access to voting systems that, frankly, no normal person or anybody with a political agenda is supposed to have access to.

So the fact that Coffee County was targeted specifically does appear to be intentional and does appear to be part of a plan that goes back much earlier than we knew before these texts came out.

BLACKWELL: Zach, even for people who are paying attention, it may be hard to put all of this into context of the bigger picture.

[10:30:04]

Put this piece into the puzzle of the various criminal investigations related to Trump.

COHEN: Yes, Victor, we know that the Fulton County District Attorney, Fani Willis, that she is looking at this breach in Coffee County, Georgia, as part of her broader election interference investigation, and these text messages do reflect some evidence that we know that she has that go beyond just Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential results. We know that her investigation is more about election interference in Georgia overall, and these texts could fit into that piece of the puzzle as it shows these Trump allies were still working to try to overturn, interfere, influence the election results in Georgia even weeks after January 6th, 2021.

BLACKWELL: All right, Zach Cohen with the exclusive reporting, thank you very much.

Let's get you another CNN exclusive now. The investigation into Hunter Biden is heating up as his legal team is scheduled to meet with Justice Department officials next week.

WALKER: Sources say the long running probe into the president's son is focused on potential tax crimes and a gun purchase. He has not been charged with any crime. CNN's Paula Reid has more.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Victor and Amara. We have learned that this meeting between Hunter Biden's legal team and Justice Department officials was actually arranged at the request of Biden's legal team, seeking an update on this yearslong investigation into Biden. Now, at this meeting is expected to be a top career Justice Department official as well as the Trump appointed U.S. attorney who has been overseeing this investigation. He stayed on after Trump left office to continue overseeing this politically sensitive case. But it's unclear if we're going to get any update on exactly what the status of that criminal investigation is.

CNN was one of the first to report last summer that the case had narrowed down to just a few potential tax crime charges and a possible charge of false statements related to the purchase of a weapon. But there have been no public developments in that case now in nearly a year, and it's unclear exactly what will happen there and if any charges will be filed.

But in the past few months, we have seen Hunter Biden's legal team become much more aggressive, much more litigious and forward leaning, and part of that is, again, seeking an update on exactly what is going on in this case.

Now all of this comes as news of a whistleblower, a possible whistleblower, on Capitol Hill. An IRS agent has written to lawmakers saying that he wants to share his story about his experience overseeing parts of this investigation, claiming that he has evidence that the Biden investigation has been mishandled, that there was allegedly political interference. This individual also claims to have evidence that would contradict the attorney general's testimony before Congress pledging that there would not be in there has not been any political interference. But I want to note that this individual has not yet been granted

whistleblower protections. They have not put forth any evidence of these claims. And other promises about whistleblowers related to the Bidens and other people on Capitol Hill have not necessarily yielded what was promised.

We will continue to watch that to see what, if anything, this person has and how it could potentially impact the criminal investigation. Victor, Amara?

BLACKWELL: Paula, thank you.

Still ahead, calls are growing for changes to the credit scoring system in this country that some activists say is tainted by systemic racism. We'll talk about it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:37:35]

BLACKWELL: A civil rights activist and a Trump administration official are now joining together to call for changes to the credit scoring system. They say it's tainted by systemic racism. There are studies that show that more blacks have lower scores than whites. Lower scores, of course, as you know, mean a lack of access to credit or paying higher interest rates on loans, which contributes to a racial wealth gap.

In an op-ed for "Fortune" magazine, King Center CEO Bernice King and CEO of Ready Life, Ashley Bell, say "The algorithms and the underlying data that feed them have been corrupted by generations of systemic oppression and financial exclusion of people of color. Instead of removing race from lending, credit scores have become a direct proxy for it."

With me now to discuss is the articles coauthor Ashley Bell. Ashley, good to see you again. It's been a couple of years. Let's talk about this proposal to, as you say, abandoned the junk science of credit scoring. Make the case.

ASHLEY BELL, FOUNDER AND CEO, READY LIFE: The data is what it is, Victor, and thank you for having me. When you look at 54 percent of African Americans in our country have what's considered poor credit or bad credit, and that exact percentage correlates to home ownership in our country, which is the cornerstone of the American dream, and the cornerstone of creating wealth, this mythical 620 number, it is a pseudoscience.

When you look at people's credit scores, the problem with it is that it doesn't take into hierarchy of needs. When you look at your credit score, it's going to determine whether or not how much you use your credit cards. There's so many people out there right now that have collections from gym memberships they didn't follow up on or just past due bills from getting sick. And every month that they didn't pay that collection, I guarantee you many times they paid their rent or they paid their mortgage. But the credit score doesn't reflect that. So what Dr. King and I are leaning into is the fact that people who

pay their rent, that should be the primary indicator for whether or not they can pay a mortgage. So what Read Life has done is that we say if you're paying $2,000 a month of rent in Kansas, then if you're paying it on time for a year, what sense does it make if you have a 610 credit score or a 600 credit score. But if you're paying $2,000 a month in rent, why wouldn't you pay $2,000 a month for a mortgage? Because the reality is that rent is somebody else's mortgage plus profit.

[10:40:00]

So we want to rethink this in a way that's common sense. And that's what ReadyLife.com does, and that's why Dr. King is leading in so strong here, because her father said it best. You cannot talk about racial justice in this country without talking about economic injustice. They're inseparable twins. And what we want to do is reset the table to say, let's go with common sense here and not this pseudoscience that has become a proxy for racism and the legacy of slavery in our country.

BLACKWELL: So I want to go two different directions here. I want to talk about racism, as you say it, but also let me ask about the just the logistics of this system, because although you right here "abandon the junk science of credit scoring," it sounds like, and correct me if I'm wrong, what you're talking about here is reform. You mentioned homeownership. The credit scoring bureaus Experian, what else do we have? Equifax, TransUnion, they take into account paying one's mortgage but not paying the rent, as you point out, with this person who pays the rent in Kansas? Is this a reform to include these alternative factors or throw out the entire thing and start over?

BELL: Well, what Dr. King and I are advocating for is we understand that there are reforms in place. You do see some people saying, you know what, we should give you some extra points for paying your rent on time. But that doesn't reflect what actually needs to happen. So the current system, if it's working for you, fine. Use it. But what Dr. King and I are trying to do is innovating for justice in a different way. We think there should be also an alternative system that doesn't look at people as three digits, that doesn't look at the fact that you got sick a year ago and some kind of way believe that you don't deserve to own a home, but you've never missed a rent payment in a decade. We believe in a system based off of cash flow. Looking at how much money you make and how you spend that money tells your story far more.

People are more than a credit score. And if you look at the study, there's so much mental health issues surrounding the shame that the credit score has done for 54 percent, the majority of black people in our country, an alternative system based on cash flow is that Ready Life does. People could come to us. They can bank with us, and we take how they spend their money and come up with a plan for them to own a home. That's what's important.

BLACKWELL: But let me ask you about the racial element here, because I can imagine there are people who are listening to this and say that this makes sense for people whether -- they may agree with it, maybe not, but what you're explaining does not include the racial element and how a larger percentage of black people say they have fair or poor credit ratings as compared to those who are white who say they have fair or poor credit rating. So how do we get to this homeownership gap, this racial wealth gap, and why that plays a role into this argument?

BELL: Well, Dr. King fought for this, her father did, in a way that showed that by taking care of the least of these, everybody would do better. By making sure that every American could vote, America would be better. By making sure every American has access to credit, credit is like water. Where credit flows, things grow. If you see a community where credit does not flow, things cannot grow. Opportunity cannot survive.

What we're saying is that you need to have a system that's fair for everyone, 17.8 million Americans pay rent and can afford to pay a mortgage. But the credit scores in their way out. Of that 17.8 million people, 50 percent of them are white, 20 percent are black, 20 percent are Latino. So this is an American problem. But by looking at the underlying issues and understanding the plight of African Americans and being at the bottom of that rung, if we can lift that population up, everybody is going to benefit.

So it's not a black or white issue, but many times in America the story is being told by the least of these. And African American is at the bottom of every list, of every statistic. And if we can raise that up, everybody is going to benefit.

BLACKWELL: Yes, we know that there have been bills proposed in the past to get rid of the big three Equifax, Experian, TransUnion, and put the credit reporting under the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. Those bills have not made it to a president's desk. But I hear what you're saying. You're not the first to make it. You're the most recent --

BELL: A new system.

BLACKWELL: It's an interesting pairing, a former Trump official with Dr. King. I appreciate you making the argument. Ashley Bell, good to see you. Thanks so much.

BELL: Thanks, Victor.

WALKER: It's a fascinating conversation that resonates with so many people. Thank you for that.

Still ahead, CNN takes over a teenager's TikTok account, and what we found, it's pretty concerning. Parents will want to hear this. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:48:43]

WALKER: This morning we want to warn you about a dangerous new TikTok trend that's circulating online. The family of a 13-year-old, Jacob Stevens says he died after participating in a TikTok challenge with some friends where he ingested, ingested a large amount of Benadryl. He was reportedly on a ventilator for almost a week before he died.

BLACKWELL: The maker of Benadryl calls it a dangerous trend and says it should be stopped immediately. TikTok says they're working to remove this type of dangerous content. But many parents say they're concerned about how social media could be affecting the health of their children.

With us now is CNN Business reporter Clare Duffy. You had the opportunity to take over a 14-year-old's TikTok account. What did you see? And how did this all start?

CLARE DUFFY, CNN BUSINESS REPORTER: That's right, Victor. So we were aware of these growing concerns among parents, among educators, among lawmakers about what young people can see on this app. And so we worked with a 14-year-old with the permission of their parents to set up this sort of test account before taking control of it. And in the first days of scrolling we saw, sort of what you would expect, dance videos, cute little kids. But then we started replicating searches that online safety advocates and lawmakers had said could lead to concerning content.

[10:50:00]

And indeed, we found content that was related to eating disorders, these sort of really explicit descriptions about how to restrict your eating, how to cut calories. We saw videos that were related to mental health and had specific descriptions of suicide or self-harm. We also saw quite a number of videos that were really sort of sexual and mature in nature. And this was the more that we searched for these things, the more they started showing up organically in our "For You" page, which wasn't surprising. That's how TikTok's algorithm works. It takes into account what you're looking for and what you're looking at. But it's sort of showed how a young person could go down one of these potentially concerning rabbit holes.

WALKER: Specific descriptions of suicide, I mean, this is horrifying. Is there anything parents can do to protect their kids in terms of restricting their mode or monitoring it or getting warnings about your children and the stuff that they're watching?

DUFFY: So there are a number of features that TikTok has that are meant to help parents protect their children. But one of them, restricted mode, TikTok says can limit the sort of inappropriate content or content that could be inappropriate for some people. So we tested it out. We used restricted mode, and one of the things we found was that it didn't actually restrict all that much. Of course, it may have restricted things that we never know about, we couldn't see. But we saw a lot of the same kinds of videos related to mental health, to eating disorders, to the sort of sexual content that we had seen when we weren't on restricted mode.

And so one of the things that experts say is that it's really important for parents to be having conversations with their kids. I spoke with Imran Ahmed, who runs the Center for Countering Digital Hate. Here's what he told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IMRAN AHMED, CEO, CENTER FOR COUNTERING DIGITAL HATE: They need to be having conversations with their kids asking them, what do you seeing? And then helping them to contextualize that. By having that conversation, we can actually help kids and parents understand better this new social media age that we, for better or worse, live in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DUFFY: So that, I think that sort of gets at it. Parents need to be having conversations with their kids about what they may or may not be seeing on this app, because it's so individual to each person.

BLACKWELL: Such important reporting. What is TikTok saying, if anything?

DUFFY: So TikTok said in a statement, in response to my reporting, "We are committed to building age-appropriate experiences where teens can safely have fun and explore their creativity. As part of this, we invest in keeping content with more mature themes from reaching younger audiences and offer Family Pairing where parents and caregivers can customize the experience their teens have on TikTok."

And look, this this account that we made didn't behave exactly like a real teenager or a real person would, but we wanted to give a sense of what a team could potentially see on this app.

WALKER: It's really eye-opening and, wow, glad you brought this to us, Clare Duffy.

BLACKWELL: Clare, thank you so much.

WALKER: Another story we are watching, North Carolina firefighters are racing to contain a massive fire burning in the Croatan National Forest. The wildfire, which has been burning since Wednesday, has now grown to 35,000 acres, and so far only 10 percent has been contained.

BLACKWELL: Officials hope that a chance of rain today will improve conditions, but anticipated winds could potentially impact the direction of the fire. Evacuations are in place at the moment, and the fire is still under investigation.

WALKER: Much of the east coast bracing for the possibility of severe weather this afternoon. People from Florida to New York could see damaging winds and hail and some spots could even see isolated tornadoes.

BLACKWELL: Meteorologist Allison Chinchar is with us now. So this is not the only threat of severe storms today. Who else is under it?

ALLISON CHINCHAR, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes, we've also got areas of Texas that are under it, too. But let's begin in the eastern portion of the country where those storms are already ongoing. You've got a big, long line here that stretches from West Virginia down into South Carolina, and that's where we have some of the strongest thunderstorms. You've got some very strong, gusty winds already, lots of cloud to ground lightning. You've got a severe thunderstorm watch here, in effect in that yellow color. That is until 6:00 p.m. eastern time tonight. We've had off and on some severe thunderstorm warnings going out throughout the morning. We've got one right now just to the northwest of Raleigh as that system continues to slide east.

So, yes, this entire area here along the mid-Atlantic region has the potential for severe thunderstorms, but also this portion of Texas including the city of Austin. Now, both of these areas have the potential for some isolated tornadoes, damaging wind, and the potential for some hail.

The key differences here is the timeline. We already have this system ongoing in the eastern portion of the country, and it pretty much wraps up late tonight, whereas the portion across Texas really doesn't ramp up until this afternoon, and that will not only continue through the evening but also into tomorrow as well. And because it's very slow moving, and it's going to just really kind of crawl, essentially, over the next couple of days, you also have the potential for some flooding, because those storms are going to go over a lot of the same locations over and over again. So all of these areas here have the potential for flooding, and not only today, but also as we head into tomorrow.

Now, overall, most of these areas you're looking at least for today, one to three inches of rain. But as we extend that out into Sunday and Monday, you're going to start to see those rain numbers tick up, because, again, this system as a whole really is not going to move all that much.

[10:55:02]

So again, Victor and Amara, a lot of concerns here not only for severe storms, but also the potential for some flooding.

WALKER: All right, Allison Chinchar, thank you for watching that for us.

Well, what started with the disappearance of 20 people from a small town in Oregon ended with the largest suicide on U.S. soil and changed the face of new age religion forever. "Heaven's Gate, The Cult Of Cults" continues tomorrow night at 10:00 on CNN.

Well, that is our time. Thank you so much for being with us.

BLACKWELL: There's much more ahead in the next hour of CNN Newsroom. Fredricka Whitfield is up next.

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FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone.