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Mississippi Expanding State Control Over Policing In Jackson; Transgender Lawmaker Silenced; Ed Sheeran Testifies In Copyright Infringement Case; Trial Begins In E. Jean Carroll's Lawsuit Against Trump; U.S.: ISIS-K Leader Behind Attack Killed By Taliban; Sudanese- American Physician Killed At Home In Khartoum. Aired 2-3a ET

Aired April 26, 2023 - 02:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[02:00:31]

ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, and welcome to our viewers joining us here on the United States and all around the world. I'm Rosemary Church. Just ahead on CNN NEWSROOM. Donald Trump's new court battle, a New York City columnist set to take the stand today accusing the former president of rape. Debt ceiling drama in D.C. A vote in the House could happen in the coming hours.

But Republican leaders are struggling to get support for their plan as the U.S. default clock ticks down.

Plus, the Taliban take out the mastermind of a deadly suicide bombing that killed 13 American troops at the Kabul Airport during the chaos of the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan.

ANNOUNCER: Live from CNN Center. This is CNN NEWSROOM with Rosemary Church.

CHURCH: Good to have you with us. And we begin this hour in New York where the woman is suing former President Donald Trump the battery and defamation and a civil trial is expected to take the stand in the hours ahead. A source says E. Jean Carroll is set to testify about her allegations that Trump raped her in a luxury department store dressing room in the 1990s. Then defamed her years later when she went public with the allegations.

Her testimony will come one day after fiery opening statements from both sides. Caroll's attorney told jurors the testimony will show Trump's pattern of alleged violent behavior, while the former president's attorney denied the allegations and accused Carroll of scheming with others to hurt Trump politically.

CNN's Paula Reid has details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): E. Jean Carroll walking into the Manhattan federal courthouse to chants from supporters.

PROTESTERS: We believe E. Jean Carroll. We believe E. Jean Carroll. We believe E. Jean Carroll.

REID: For the first day of her battery and defamation case against former President Donald Trump, it took just a few hours to impanel a jury to hear the civil case and opening arguments began this afternoon.

The trial comes after Carroll sued Trump accusing him of raping her in a department store in the 90s.

E. JEAN CARROLL, SUING DONALD TRUMP: That was just a dumb thing to go into a dressing room with a man that I hardly know and have him shut the door and then be unable to stop him. Sexual violence is in every country in every strata of society.

REID: Carroll first went public with her allegations against Trump in 2019. Then President Trump fired back at Carroll denying the allegations and saying the two never even met.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have no idea who this woman is. This is a woman who's also accused other men of things as you know. It is a totally false accusation.

REID: Despite this photo from the 1980s showing Carroll and Trump chatting which Trump acknowledges.

TRUMP: There's some picture where we're shaking hands. It looks like at some kind of event.

REID: Carroll's lawyers say they plan to call witnesses to back up her story. And the judge has ruled to other women who alleged Trump forced himself on them can also take the stand.

Carroll's team could also play a clip from the infamous Access Hollywood tape that surfaced during the 2016 presidential election.

TRUMP: You know, I'm automatically attracted to beautiful. I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait.

And when you're a star, they lot you do it. You can do anything.

REID: The Trump camp has previously dismissed his comments on that tape as nothing more than "locker room talk." Trump is not expected to appear for this trial unless called to testify. But his spokesman released a statement Tuesday saying, this latest fake case has no merit or facts and is just another part of the witch-hunt, targeted to interfere and tamper with a presidential election.

REID (on camera): After a jury was impaneled, it heard opening statements from both sides of this case. Lawyers for Carroll argued that this was part of a pattern of aggressive behavior towards women. But Trump's lawyers argued this is all part of a "scheme to hurt him politically." They said if anyone wants to do that, that's something you do at the ballot box, not in a court of law. Paula Reid, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHURCH: President Biden is promising to veto a Republican plan to cut spending and raise the national debt limit. But as it stands right now, GOP leaders are not sure if they have enough votes in their own party to get the plan through the house.

[02:05:06]

And it's uncertain when a vote will take place. CNN's Chief Congressional Correspondent Manu Raju has more.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Speaker McCarthy was huddled behind closed doors for most of the day on Tuesday, as he was trying to lock down enough votes to get his debt limit package through the House. He has very little margin for error of 222 Republican votes in the House. Meaning that he could only afford to lose no more than four Republican votes because we do expect all Democrats to vote against his plan as they're demanding the increase to the national debt limit without any conditions whatsoever.

That is a position that is rejected steadfastly by the Speaker himself. The Speaker wants a range of cuts what he is proposing cuts across the federal government, new Republican priorities put to push forward including stopping Joe Biden's student loan, forgiveness plan, adding new work requirements to the Medicaid program. But he's encountering a problem. Some members in his conference want changes to the bill.

And the Republican leadership is not willing to entertain those changes yet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TIM BURCHETT (R-TN): I'm a hard no. I just can't get past $32 trillion in debt.

REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): Do the math, do the numbers and come out with something stronger because if this is something that the President is just going to end up vetoing and it's a messaging bill, then we ought to have the best message most responsible, fiscally responsible message moving forward.

RAJU: Kevin McCarthy would not say whether or not there will be a vote on Wednesday. That had been the expectation of -- heading into this week. They had hoped the Republican leaders did that. They could get enough votes to get this through the House on Wednesday evening. It is unclear if they can get to that point yet, but that is still what they're driving towards. They are concerned if they change the bill, whether it's to take away some the rescission of ethanol tax breaks.

That has actually prompted a lot of concerns from some Iowa members. If they take that away or they change the Medicaid work requirements, some conservatives wanted to make it stricter on how the -- how Medicaid beneficiaries would get benefits under this program through this legislation. If McCarthy changes any of these provisions, he is concerned that it would open up the bill to a whole wide range of other changes, creating an unwieldy process and ultimately seeking the plan altogether which is why they are trying to pressure their members to fall in line now.

Even though this bill is dead on arrival of democratic-led Senate, they still hope they can get this through the House, strengthen their negotiating position with the White House, force the White House to the table, cut a deal to raise the debt limit, even as a default looms as soon as June.

Mana Raju, CNN, Capitol Hill.

CHURCH: The U.S. is claiming another victory in the war on terror with the death of an ISIS leader in Afghanistan. But it wasn't the U.S. military who killed him.

CNN's Oren Liebermann reports from the Pentagon.

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: The ISIS-K leader who planned the attack at Abbey gate in the closing days of the withdrawal from Afghanistan that led to the deaths of 13 U.S. service members have been killed by the Taliban, according to the White House. The White House hasn't said when exactly he was killed, or how was this a specific Taliban operation to go after this ISIS-K leader or was it in general fighting between ISIS-K and the Taliban.

But John Kirby, the National Security Council's Strategic Communications Coordinator said this terrorist was the mastermind of the attack and is one of several senior level ISIS-K leaders that's been killed since the beginning of the year. The Taliban has been trying to crack down on ISIS-Kyiv since the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan, viewing them as a rival to their power in Afghanistan.

General Erik Kurilla, the commander of U.S. Central Command said ISIS- K is attempting to grow stronger, they are carrying out more attacks. And their ultimate goal is to carry out attacks against U.S. interests. Either the homeland, which is more difficult for them or U.S. interests abroad which is something they aim to do as they tried to export their ideology outside of Afghanistan.

That news of the death of the ISIS-K leader who planned the attack comes as Republicans have been investigating, carrying out oversight of the withdrawal excoriating the Biden administration for how it was handled. And of course, the attack at Abbey Gate that led to the deaths of 13 U.S. service members as well as more than 150 Afghans. Representative Michael McCaul, the chairman of the House Foreign Relations Committee issued a statement saying, anytime a terrorist is taken off the board is a good day. But this doesn't diminish the Biden administration's culpability for the failures that led to the attack at Abbey Gate and will no way deter the committee's investigation."

In the same vein, the father of one of those killed at Abbey gate issued this statement to CNN. After speaking with CNN., This is Darin Hoover, the father of Marine Staff Sergeant Taylor Hoover. He says, it's great. We have another terrorist off the face of the earth. I'm good with that. But it doesn't absolve the administration or the State Department or the Pentagon from taking responsibility or accountability for what happened.

Meanwhile, over the course of the past several months, couple of years really, the Biden administration has fought back against at accusations that it's entirely to blame for the withdrawal from Afghanistan saying they were locked into a withdrawal from the peace agreement signed between the previous administration, the Trump administration and the Taliban in the months before the withdrawal.

[02:10:11]

Oren Liebermann, CNN, at the Pentagon.

CHURCH: Now to Sudan where a U.S. citizen was killed during the unrest Sudanese-American physician, Dr. Bushra Sulieman was reportedly stabbed in front of his house in the capital on Tuesday. It's not clear who attacked him. He was a professor at the University of Khartoum Medical School.

Meanwhile, a U.N. Special Representative says the three-day ceasefire is holding in some parts of the country, despite reports of gunfire and clashes around Khartoum. Both of the warring sides accuse each other of violating the agreement.

CNN's Senior Africa Editor Stephanie Busari is tracking this live for us. She joins us now from Lagos. So, Stephanie, disturbing news of the killing of an American doctor in the capital amid this shaky ceasefire. What is the latest on all of this?

STEPHANIE BUSARI, CNN SENIOR AFRICA EDITOR: So, good morning, Rosemary. Details are still emerging on what happened with this doctor. He was apparently on his way to a dialysis appointment when he was stabbed outside his house by unknown persons. And this points to what people are telling me about a lack of law and order on the ground. Things have totally fallen apart.

And we've seen looting and robberies and just a normal kind of criminality alongside the violence that's coming with the warring factions. And no surprise that the ceasefire has fallen apart. Like previous ceasefires, and both sides are blaming one another for that -- for that breakdown. And this is as countries raised to get their citizens out of the country. Overnight, Saudi Arabia helped to get some 62 nationalities.

More than 2000 people were evacuated from various nationalities. And, you know, people just really trying to kind of make the best of this situation and stay safe and get out, Rosemary.

CHURCH: All right. Stephanie Busari joining us there from Lagos. Appreciate it. All right I want to go to Doha, Qatar and Alan Boswell, who is the Horn of Africa director at the International Crisis Group. Thank you so much for talking with us. So, it does appear that this ceasefire is not holding. Although the U.N. suggests that it is in some areas. What are you hearing about that? And do these two warring military leaders intend to fight to the bitter end?

ALAN BOSWELL, DIRECTOR, HORN OF AFRICA AT THE INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP: Thus far, yes. We've had many attempts at ceasefires over the past week, unfortunately, essentially, they all keep collapsing. This one is holding in some areas, but essentially fighting continued overnight in the capitol and in areas and therefore diplomats are, you know, working, you know, on these two, very heavily, trying to get them to stop.

There are questions, though, about whether or not they have sufficient command and control of their forces to actually implement a ceasefire. And there are huge questions about whether or not as you said, both men are actually ready to stop fighting and sit down and talk.

CHURCH: So, is there anything that would get these two leaders to the negotiating table for a permanent end to this conflict? Could they be promised anything?

BOSWELL: Well, I think these are the questions that are, you know, being asked very much right now. The main efforts to try to get them to stop fighting are coming from more or less the Washington and the U.S. on one side and Gulf capitals in the other led by Saudi Arabia. The hope is that the Gulf, which is a huge power player in Sudan, that there would be leverage there on these two to try to convince them to stop fighting.

But it's, you know, people are trying. They've yet to find the right formula yet. I think part of the problem is this fight is still very much an existential one. We've seen the two sides, in some ways, fight it out to a draw so far in Khartoum. And both I think, would prefer to go to the -- go to the negotiating table with the upper hand. I mean, neither has really been able to get that yet.

CHURCH: So, what impact is this fighting having on the humanitarian crisis and all those people desperately trying to get out of the country?

BOSWELL: Yes. It is total Mayhem in Khartoum. We've essentially seen a collapse of a city of millions of people in very rapid order. It is -- it is the fastest growing humanitarian crisis manmade that I've ever seen.

[02:15:01]

You have militias basically roaming the capital. People have their homes occupied. People are running out of food, running out of water. It's very hot and there's very spotty electricity. And we've seen Khartoum residents who have the means to -- trying to flee to Egypt or to the Red Sea and then move on elsewhere. But obviously, a lot of residents are stuck in the capital. Humanitarian aid agencies have not been able to get in relief due to the security situation.

It's a very, very grave situation. And it's one of the reasons everyone's been focusing on trying to get a humanitarian ceasefire which they then hope lead to political talks. But the focus has still been very much on this humanitarian situation, which is -- which is just disastrous.

CHURCH: It is. And how likely is it that this conflict will extend beyond the borders of Sudan? And what will be the consequences of that if it happens?

BOSWELL: Yes. There's a window right now to try to get these two to stop fighting. They -- both of them have such little political legitimacy in Sudan that basically no other Sudanese have decided to join them. They've -- the Sudanese have pretty much all rejected this fighting. So that gives an opportunity to still get these two to stop fighting. If it continues, though, much longer, it's likely we will see this war fragment, it'll get more complicated.

It'll pull in more groups, and it's more likely we'll see external intervention from other countries in the region. At that point, this becomes something more like a regional war. And it gets much more complicated to resolve. Sudan sits in a very fragile region to the west, to the south. There are countries that will not be able to contain unrest that spreads from Sudan. So, it's a very worrying alarming situation.

CHURCH: Alan Boswell, thank you so much for your analysis. Appreciate it.

And still to come. Waiting and watching on the frontlines. Russia is making moves while Ukraine batters Russian weaponry in a region that could soon explode into renewed fighting.

Plus. Back in court. Jailed Kremlin critic Alexey Navalny faces new charges amid growing concerns for his health. That story and more when we return.

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[02:21:05]

CHURCH: Jailed Russian opposition figure Alexey Navalny is expected to appear in court via video link in the coming hours for a new criminal case. He was accused of disrupting a state institution after allegedly dragging his cellmate with hygiene problems out of their cell. Navalny's daughter says the judge could rule on how much time if any, her father and his lawyers will have to prepare for the case.

She also tells CNN, prison officials are denying her father food.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DARIA NAVALNAYA, DAUGHTER OF ALEXEY NAVALNY: The situation has gotten so ridiculous that he buys the food which is, you know, oats. It's nothing -- it's (INAUDIBLE) he buys the oats. That oats are brought to him, shown to him and then are just destroyed. So, he can't eat. And it's, you know, something so basic is stripped away from a human being. It's outrageous.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CHURCH: Navalny is said to be suffering extreme weight loss behind bars. He faces up to five years in prison for the latest charge on top of more than 10 years, he's currently serving.

Along the frontlines in southern Ukraine, a tense and uncertain waiting game is unfolding around Zaporizhzhia where Ukrainian forces say Russian troops are on the move and civilians are being evacuated from Russian-held areas ahead of an expected counter offensive by Ukraine. But exactly when and where that might happen is still anyone's guess.

CNN's Nick Payton Walsh reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Change is in the air, but here in Vuhledar, Russia is the same. And its intensity and clumsiness of bombing. It's not clear if this tiny town is a launchpad for Ukraine's counter offensive, but Moscow pounds it just to be sure.

A similar story here too on a riverbank near Kherson. The reportedly Ukrainian forces may be crossing into occupied areas. Their officials claiming "impressive results on Tuesday." A Russian airstrike hit, even though it's unclear what they struck.

Ukraine's otherwise kept quiet about its big assault. Despite some opaque social media videos suggesting movement. Russian troops are according to one Ukrainian official from the occupied town of Melitopol definitely on the move.

IVAN FEDOROV, MELITOPOL, UKRAINE MAYOR: Law will be treated. They are relocated. They make two great big bases for Russian troops. All of these bases located on a seaside over (INAUDIBLE) more than 100 kilometers from the front line.

WALSH: He joked about how common accidents are there for Russians. One overturning this launcher, especially on the railway, vital for military supplies.

FEDOROV: Made the three weeks, there is no electricity on the railway. And they use old diesel trains. And few days ago, Samsung had been with diesel trains and it was a great fire and now there is no this diesel.

WALSH (on camera): When you say something happened, you mean there was an explosion and, you know, something about that?

FEDOROV: Something happened.

WALSH (voice-over): We spoke to one local man who fled the city four days ago.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Proper Russian troops aren't there yet. It's just the newly mobilized who would not fight if they weren't threatened by being shot failed discipline. Everyone local suspects everyone else of something. Even people who

would drink vodka with you can't talk to you now.

WALSH (voice-over): Still, Moscow keeps up with what it calls evacuations. This another episode of Ukrainian children being sent to what Russia calls safety.

[02:25:04]

Here, 43 from an area right in the path of the counter offensive packed off to Moscow's allied Belarus for a two-week break. Others in the past were offered a similar trip but held for months. Ukraine has said 20,000 had been deported already and it's led to a war crimes indictment against Russian President Vladimir Putin. It's unclear what comes next for them. And the town in the crosshairs they leave behind.

Nick Payton Walsh, CNN, Zaporizhzhia, Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHURCH: Still to come. Residents of Jackson, Mississippi speak to CNN as the state prepares to expand its reach over policing in the city. A look at why the move is creating a deep divide. Back with that and more in just a moment.

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CHURCH: Two news laws are creating a divide over the city of Jackson, Mississippi and have even led to a lawsuit from the NAACP.

The legislature leash in part extends the state's law enforcement reach of the city as it faces a staggering rise in crime.

[02:30:07]

But critics say the changes main the mostly white conservative state officials will now control a mostly democratic city where more than 80 percent of residents are black. CNN's Omar Jimenez has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FELICIA BRISCO, OWNER, HAIR GALLERY II: We don't want the city to be taken over. But we're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): Felicia Brisco has owned this beauty salon in North Jackson, Mississippi for more than two decades.

BRISCO: Beauty Salons used to be open door, where you can just walk in, but we can't allow that anymore.

JIMINEZ: Just 10 years ago, there were 50 homicides in Jackson a year. In 2021 that number jumped to more than 150 with the murder rate more than 12 times the national average. Now, a new pair of law is meant to help fix the issue are creating a deep divide between the city and state, by the laws partly having state law enforcement patrol all of Jackson and state leaders appointing some judges and prosecutors, but also the state legislature is majority Republican and majority white. They approve these laws that affect the city of Jackson, which is majority Democratic and more than 80 percent black.

(on camera): What kind of message do you think this sends to your residents?

CHOKWE ANTAR LUMUMBA, JACKSON, MISSISSIPPI MAYOR: It says that we don't value your voice, that we don't believe that black leadership is capable of moving forward for itself.

JIMENEZ: This road that includes schools, churches and homes will soon become the new edge of the so-called Capitol Complex Improvement District. Now, under old rules, the edge of the district would mean the edge of Capitol Police's jurisdiction. Now, it'll extend beyond those boundaries into the greater Jackson giving the state-run police jurisdiction city, way. In theory, to work with an understaffed City Police Department.

CAPT. CHRISTIAN VANCE, JACKSON POLICE DEPARTMENT: You look at carjacking, and you look at murders and say, oh, let's create a problem. Now, brother, that is a symptom of people not valuing each other and not valuing themselves.

JIMENEZ (voiceover): And for Captain Vance, the key to the success of any added officers goes beyond numbers.

VANCE: You have to go out your way to know these people, to have a relationship with them because policing without a relationship is occupation.

JIMENEZ (voiceover): Both laws were introduced as bills by legislators who represent districts outside of Jackson.

SEN. JOHN HORHN (D-MS): They just cannot help themselves.

JIMENEZ (voiceover): Democratic State Senator John Horhn has represented parts of Jackson for more than 30 years.

HORHN: We see this as an assault on black elected leadership. Because we have political differences with our colleagues, and because they have the political power and the will to bring about these changes.

JIMENEZ (voiceover): But the changes are coming.

GOV. TATE REEVES (R-MS): We need Jackson to prosper. We as a state need a downtown area that is attracting young people to it.

JIMENEZ: Regardless of the representation issues and this bill seems to be providing some help. What do you say to folks who argue that?

LUMUMBA: In any moment where you find yourself in a crisis, what you don't want to do is reach for a solution that places you in a worse position than when you already find yourself.

JIMENEZ (voiceover): Outside of politics, some residents say any change is going to start on the ground and that's you mean something different.

VANCE: If you take the time out, to value this place and see it for what it is man, we might well be first cut.

JIMENEZ (voiceover): Back in the salon. Brisco knows the laws aren't perfect, but she also knows something has to change.

JIMENEZ: What do you think you're going to need to unlock your doors again?

BRISCO: It's going to take a lot for people to feel comfortable again.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JIMENEZ (on camera): Now, given the disagreements between local and state leaders, I asked the governor how he envisions the implementation of these laws going. And he told me, part of his job is to manage expectations, and that smooth implementation is never easy. He expects this will be no different. The NAACP has already filed a lawsuit arguing in part these laws stripped residents of their civil liberties by watering down the powers of local elected officials in favor of state appointed ones. These laws go into effect July 1st, as the governor says they'll help restore law and order. Omar Jimenez, CNN, New York.

CHURCH: Washington's Democratic governor has now signed into law a ban on most sales of assault style weapons. The legislation prohibits the manufacture, importation distribution and sale of these weapons, and includes the popular AR-15 rifle under its ban. On Tuesday, Governor Jay Inslee said those weapons should not be idolized, they should be prohibited. There is an exception for sales made to armed forces and law enforcement.

[02:35:01]

The state's Republican Party says the law is poised to face legal challenges. The ban makes Washington the 10th state to enact restrictions on assault style weapons. Still ahead this hour, new developments in the story of the Montana lawmaker not allowed to speak in the state legislature. We will hear from her when we return.

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CHURCH: The Republican led Montana State House is considering disciplinary action for a lawmaker over her comments on transgender rights.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The side of the chambers, members please go to the side of the chambers.

CHURCH (voiceover): Protesters chanted, let her speak on Monday after Zooey Zephyrs microphone was cut off. Last week she said lawmakers who voted to ban gender affirming care for minors would see blood on their hands. Republicans called that inappropriate and uncalled form. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The side of the chambers.

[02:40:09]

ZOOEY ZEPHYR, MONTANA STATE HOUSE DEMOCRAT: When I spoke on Senate 99. I spoke about the very real harm that these bills cause. For example, there was a young trans teen who attempted suicide. And when her mother found her, she had one of the hearings, one of these anti trans hearings up on her computer. I see the real harm these bills bring -- these bills bring and the best they can potentially lead to, and I stand by holding the Republicans accountable for their policies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: Seven people were arrested during Monday's protest, Republicans called it a riot. Zephyr says she's not being allowed to represent her constituents. I'm Rosemary Church, for our international viewers, "WORLD SPORT" is next. And for those of you here in North America, I will be back with more CNN NEWSROOM in just a moment. Do stick with us.

[02:45:00]

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CHURCH: The king of Calypso known for his trademark Banana Boat Song, Harry Belafonte has died. But he was so much more than a singer, Belafonte was the son of poor Caribbean immigrants, who built a successful career winning an Emmy, a Tony and three Grammys. But his biggest contributions came in the fight for civil rights as he became close friends with Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. Belafonte fought against apartheid in South Africa, the HIV AIDS epidemic and racial injustice in the United States.

Well, popstar Ed Sheeran, took the stand in New York on Tuesday and a high-profile copyright infringement case. He is accused of copying Marvin Gaye's 1973 soul hit Let's Get It On, for Sheeran song Thinking Out Loud. The suit was brought by the heirs of Ed Townsend, co-author of the song with Gaye. In his opening statement an attorney representing the family said Sheeran played his ballad and Gaye song back-to-back at a concert calling the moment a smoking gun. The singer denied the allegation saying if he had copied the song, then he wouldn't have played it quote onstage in front of 20,000 people. Joining me now from Los Angeles is Bob Lefsetz. He is a music writer and author of the industry leading, Lefsetz Letter. Great to have you with us.

BOB LEFSETZ, MUSIC WRITER, THE LEFSETZ LETTER: Good to be here.

CHURCH: So, Ed Sheeran's music copyright trial got underway Tuesday in Manhattan Federal Court. Ed Townsend's airs accusing Sheeran of copying the classic song Let's Get It On, which Townsend Ed co-wrote with Marvin Gaye. So, let's start by listening to a portion of each song starting with Sheeran's ballad, Thinking Out Loud.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ED SHEERAN, SONG ARTIST: Darling, I will be loving you till 70.

MARVIN GAYE, SONG ARTIST: Let's get it on. Ah, baby, let's get it on. Let's love, baby.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: OK, Bob, we just heard the two songs back-to-back. What do you think, did Sheeran, copy Townsend and Gaye song there, Let's Get It On?

LEFSETZ: You know, this is the law, this is an emotion. And under the law, it has to be a direct copy of the sheet music prior to 1978 Let's Get It On, as prior to 1978. That means it must be an exact replication of the notes. The plaintiffs have already admitted of the four chords, one is not similar. This is very important because this is not similarity in feel. It's literally whether it's the exact same notes. So, I believe it is not infringement.

CHURCH: Interesting. Now, Sheeran testified that both songs are based on a common chord progression. And his lawyer said the similarities between the two songs are commonplace ingredients that are found in numerous other songs and free for any musician to use. What do you say to that explanation?

LEFSETZ: Well, let's go back a little bit in history here. There was a conflagration starting with the Blurred Lines case. If you delve into it on a legal basis, and I happen to be a lawyer, it is literally not the exact same notes. But a jury decided, and who can predict a jury. Then we had the Stairway to Heaven case, which said, well, this is just common. So, we really don't know, and it is not in the hands of the experts. It's in the hands of the jury and there are not enough cases for us to look the law as based on something called starry decisis.

We decide things based on what came before. The defendants are hoping that the Stairway to Heaven paradigm applies. We're as the plaintiffs want to believe that Blurred Lines applies, and Blurred Lines was inappropriately decided. So, it's totally up in the air. So, when you're going to have these juries say, well, it sounds like the same song. That's not the criteria, which is why the defendants say we don't want you playing the records in court.

[02:50:12]

So far, the judges said he will not -- although he's open to possibly doing that, because that is not what we're deciding. We're deciding, did Ed Sheeran used the exact notes that were filed with the copyright office, on the sheet music.

CHURCH: And, of course, it is worth noting that this case was originally filed back in 2017 but was delayed multiple times. And now, of course, there is a lot riding on this copyright case. So, what do you expect the outcome will likely be given what we know so far?

LEFSETZ: Well, you know, I really depends what the judge lets him to evidence and what the judge's instructions are. If you go back to the Stairway to Heaven case, Led Zeppelin literally toured with the band spirit. And it is literally the exact same notes and they said, well, this goes back to the year 1400, Led Zeppelin has a long history of appropriating songs that subsequently they give credit to or they're arguing about. That is very different from the Ed Sheeran case.

It's not like he was on the road with Marvin Gaye, who's deceased. So, that's the most recent case. And you would say using that logic, if Led Zeppelin skated, then insurances should skate. But if the jury believes like the hoi polloi. Well, it sounds similar, they're going to go against that. And that is not the criterion, which is exactly what is freaking everybody out as a result of the Blurred Lines case. Now, there's another expression of British expression where there's a hit, there's a writ. They're not suing all these people who don't have hits.

They see this pile of money, they see the Blurred Lines case, they say, what the hell, let's give it a shot. And therefore, if I'm looking for a legal case, I would say slam dunk shouldn't be convicted. But once you get to court, you have no idea what will happen. Just like in the Fox Dominion case, they settled because if they went all the way to trial, who knew what would happen?

CHURCH: Bob Lefsetz, thank you so much for joining us appreciate it.

LEFETZ: Absolutely, great to be here.

CHURCH: Well, flood warnings are posted out this hour along the upper Mississippi River as melting snow pushes the water over the riverbanks. At least, 20 River gauges are indicating major flood stage in parts of the Upper Midwest, including Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa and Missouri. And it's expected that number will increase to at least 30 by next week. Now, this is what it looked like Monday in Wabasha, Minnesota. But forecasters say colder than expected temperatures will keep the snow from melting even faster, helping to moderate the flooding at least somewhat.

And California is preparing for major flooding as a bumper crop of snow and the Sierra begins to melt. Rangers are closing Yosemite National Park beginning Friday and into next week, fearful that floods could endanger public safety. California's Governor toured the Central Valley west of this era Tuesday to talk about flood control. That's a major agricultural region that could be hard hit as the snow melt in the mountains comes rushing down. In the NBA Playoffs, the Atlanta Hawks beat the Boston Celtics in dramatic fashion to keep their championship hopes alive.

Atlanta star player Trae Young made this three-point shot with just 1.8 seconds remaining to give the Hawks the victory. He led the teams come from behind rally scoring the final 14 points for Atlanta. Game Six will be played here in Atlanta on Thursday night. Meanwhile, the Denver Nuggets advanced to the next round after beating the Minnesota Timberwolves, MVP contender Nikola Jokic powered Denver to victory with his triple double performance. The top seeded nuggets are going to the Western Conference semifinals for the fourth time in five seasons. Final score Denver 112, Minnesota 109. The Denver Nuggets will meet the Phoenix Suns in the semifinals after the Suns blotted out the Los Angeles Clippers. Devin Booker led the Suns to victory, scoring 47 points. He set a new franchise record for the player with the most 40 plus postseason games in Phoenix history. Final score SUNS 136, Clippers 130. And quarterback Aaron Rodgers is opening up about the trade that will see him leave the only NFL team he's ever played for. The deal that will send Rodgers from Green Bay ends Monday. On Tuesday, Rodgers posted on Instagram because fans, his teammates and the state of Wisconsin for the 18 years he's spent with the franchise. Meanwhile, the Jets general manager called the trade historic for his team.

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JOE DOUGLAS, GENERAL MANAGER, NEW YORK JETS: Aaron's one of the -- one of the best quarterbacks to ever play this game. And to have an opportunity to add a player of that -- of that caliber. You're always going to -- you're always going to look into it. We're all excited to add someone of his character and manageability.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: The trade involves swapping multiple draft picks. And thanks so much for your company. I'm Rosemary Church, I will be back with more CNN NEWSROOM in just a moment. Hope you can stick with us.

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