Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

One Suspect Believed Dead in Shooting at a Texas Mall; Interview with Representative Keith Self (R-TX) about Mall Shooting in Allen, Texas; Police Responding to Shooting at Texas Outlet Mall. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired May 06, 2023 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:00]

CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: -- citizen, and with their firearm went toward the sound of the gunshots. You know, someone seized them, they think maybe it's the second shooter. You know, Tom mentioned earlier about the chaos in these situations. And he's absolutely right. People see a lot of things. Make a lot of assumptions.

So right now we don't know if there's a second shooter or not just from the actions that a police officer who doesn't really look like they're searching for a second suspect at least in the mall, might be wrong but it just seems like even the SWAT officers around the SWAT vehicles, those are the very ones that would be conducting such a search.

But they don't seem to have that urgency that you would think you would have if they thought there was a second active shooter. So we don't know yet. I'm sure that there will be a statement coming out at some point in time. Hopefully soon, from some official at the scene that at least give you some preliminary information to kind of set people's minds at ease.

But it looks like this is going to be something where we've got some people who unfortunately may have lost their lives in this particular incident. I hope that's not true. The shooter, I mean, that is what it is. I'm not concerned about the shooter. But I'm talking about innocent people who may have been seriously injured or killed. And hopefully, that's not the case. But it doesn't look very good.

PAULA REID, CNN ANCHOR: Steve Moore is joining us now. He's a CNN law enforcement contributor.

Steve, you heard our new reporting. One shooter is dead. There is a possible second shooter, though unclear. You can see on your screen that this is a massive complex. It's sort of a mall within a mall. How long would it take to complete a search for a second suspect in a place this big?

STEVE MOORE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it's going to take hours, if not overnight. They're going to have to go door to door to door, obviously, and clear every place if that's what they intend to do. The other problem is the shooter could easily have gotten into a car in the parking lot and maybe trying to escape, posing as just a victim or a shopper, or they could have carjacked somebody. So you can't even let the cars leave without looking at the cars.

I would say, though, you know, dovetailing on what Chief Ramsey said, every active shooter that I've been involved with there's always one more shooter reported than actually were. And when you get somebody who is dressed in tactical clothing, generally that's somebody who's not going to ask somebody to come along for the ride. So my blink on this, and I could be wrong, but I would say that the reports of a second shooter are frequent and usually not reliable. Not always. I mean, sometimes there are more than one but statistically I don't usually see them.

REID: That's an important point. You're new to this discussion now. I want to get your take on the live pictures that we're seeing now. We've seen a very orderly exit from these stores. Massive law enforcement presence. But it appears pretty calm right now. What's your take on what's going on there?

MOORE: Yes. As the chief said, I'm seeing a lot of tactical officers standing with their guns slung. Not on alert for a potential shooter coming their way. This has all the earmarks, as the chief said, of something that has been at least resolved as far as the exigency of the situation. You see all those cars right there. A decision is going to have to be made on who you let out and how far you're going to go with the search.

And part of that's going to kind of lean on what they know about the shooter that is dead. And they'll by now have a lot of information on that shooter.

REID: And Juliette Kayyem, you just heard Chief Ramsey talk about the fact that this is likely, like just going to be one shooter. And our colleague Steve also weighed in, saying, look, there's often a second shooter that is reported, really does it turn out to be the case especially when he said someone is dressed in tactical clothing. Is that your read on this as well?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, there might have been a second shooter but someone who was responding to the shooting, the original shooting. Texas is a heavily armed state. It is permissive to be heavily armed or to be armed publicly in Texas.

[19:05:02]

And so with that many people in the shopping mall, you can bet, 100 percent, there were other people who were armed. So thoughts of a second shooter or discussion of a second shooter may have been in fact there was a second shooter but that second shooter was either trained to protect people or go after the shooter.

We've seen this in Indiana last year, two years ago as the most significant example of which a young man in a shopping mall shot an active shooter. I will say in these cases, very, very rarely are shooters killed by an armed bystander. So we don't know how this shooter was killed but that's a very rare percentage. They often either commit suicide or are killed by law enforcement, if they don't survive it as we've seen in this case.

That's just statistically accurate. So that more guns really in the public really are not minimizing the harm. So that's how I would explain, at least until we know more, at least some of these discussions of potentially multiple shooters. There were more likely than not several people with guns in that shopping mall. And so we maybe just be hearing different takes on who those gunmen were.

REID: And Chief Ramsey, how will law enforcement go about figuring out if there was indeed a second shooter? He's not going to rely on surveillance video. How long does it take until you figure out if there was indeed someone else here?

RAMSEY: Well, certainly video will help a great deal but witnesses, people who are able to provide information about what actually took place. Again, you know, it wouldn't be unusual, especially when we're talking about, you know, being in Texas and all that you had shoppers that were armed. But they're just there shopping. They're not, you know, doing anything wrong. They just happened to be armed.

So I'm sure if they heard shots fired, some of them or at least one would probably take it upon themselves to take action of some kind. And If I'm a citizen and I see another guy with a gun and shooting, I can assume that that's a second shooter. But the fact that the officers -- I'm just looking at the posture, the way in which they're, you know, moving around especially around the SWAT vehicles and things of that nature.

That indicates to me that there is not an active search for a second gunman at this point in time. So there's a lot of stuff that still has to be sorted out. That's why you haven't heard anything in terms of any kind of media presentation. They want to try to provide as much accurate information as possible. And the first information you get is usually not accurate. I mean, you get a whole lot of information but it takes a minute to kind of sort through it to a point where you actually have concrete information that you can pass along to the public. And that's probably what you see happening now.

REID: And just to reset. Our colleague, John Miller, reporting that one shooter is dead. This individual reportedly wearing tactical gear. And there is a possible, a possible second shooter. Law enforcement working through that now.

Steve, our colleague Ed Lavandera, he's there on the scene. I don't know if you heard his report. He described the situation as in a lull. Pretty calm. People have been escorted out. They were waiting to be reunited. What if any helpful information can people now provide to law enforcement if they were at this mall?

MOORE: I think if you were a witness to the actual shooting, got a view of the shooter, yes, they want to talk to you. If you didn't, likely you're not needed right at that second. And people crowding around who don't have firsthand information might not be a huge help. Anybody who has cameras, store managers of places that have nearby cameras that might have caught this attack, bringing those forward to the police and to law enforcement would be of extreme value so that they don't have to, you know, walk into every store and say do you have cameras. Where are they? Which they're eventually going to have to do but there's two phases to this obviously.

You have the exigent phase, the response phase, and then the mop-up and the understanding of the motives for this. So right now it appears that they're kind of at the end of the exigent phase. And they're still going to need to know whether there were two people or are we going to use up all of our manpower hours tonight and tomorrow, screening every building and every person leaving this lot.

[19:10:10]

REID: I want to go back to Camila Bernal.

Let's reset. We've been waiting for a while to get new information. We do know a little bit. So at this point while information continues to trickle in, we continue to look at these photos, what do we know at this point?

CAMILA BERNAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, if we reset we know this happened at around 4:00 p.m. local time in Dallas. It happened at the Allen Premium Outlets. This is in a suburb of Dallas, Texas. And what we heard initially from authorities was that they were responding to a shooting. ATF saying they were responding to an active shooter situation. So we know that there are multiple agencies who were on the ground.

But it appears that the leading agency here is the Allen Police Department. They have only said that this is an active investigation. That they're busy. That they're trying to get the situation under control. It appears that they are still on the ground. Still trying to piece everything together. And according to information from law enforcement sources that spoke to our colleague John Miller, one shooter is dead. That shooter appears to have been wearing tactical gear.

Now they are still looking for a possible second shooter. Now in these incidents, there's always a possibility that witnesses may have seen the shooter and described him differently. So it is still unclear if there was a second shooter but authorities are of course doing their due diligence trying to figure out if there is still a risk here. They have not told us how many people were shot, if people were shot.

So we're waiting to hear about the details, the numbers, and really exactly what happened at the outlets here on Saturday afternoon in Allen, Texas. But there are many witnesses who are describing the chaos there, who say they were trying to get out of the area, who say they were terrified. Not just people who were at the area where they believe a shooting happen, but also people who are trying to reunite with their daughter, for example, who worked at the outlets.

So there are families still trying to figure out exactly where their loved ones were because this was so chaotic. But again, we are waiting for a lot of details from authorities -- Paula.

REID: Camila Bernal, thank you for that. I want to go to our colleague, Ed Lavandera, who is live on the scene.

Ed, you just heard Camila go through the tick-tock of everything that we know at this point. What are you seeing there right now at this facility?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Paula, we've been able to move over to the western side of the outlet mall. And you can see there in the distance. This gives as a little better angle into the area where we believe at least where the shooting might have come to an end. That is the area, if you heard our report earlier. There was a burger restaurant there where there was a lot of police activity.

We see the flashing lights there in the distance. And we believe that's the area in there where investigators are kind of focused at this moment. We did hear from some other people that searching continues of the businesses and the shopping outlets. We've heard from a number of witnesses who described kind of the chaotic moments as the sounds of gunfire started erupting and people scrambling to make sense of exactly what it is they were hearing.

But to kind of give you a sense with what the scene looks like now, you can see hundreds of people all along the streets, just on the side of this outlet mall. These were all people who were either inside stores or moving through the parking lot. You've probably seen the video images of people walking out of the area with their hands in the air. This is the area where they're now congregating, waiting for the latest information from authorities here on the scene as to exactly what has unfolded here.

So you see scenes like this, people coming up to officers, asking them for whatever kind of information and whatever kind of tidbits they can get to be able to figure out how they can reconnect with loved ones, how they can get back to their cars, how they can get back to other parts of this shopping outlet mall. So that is the scene. But it is, you know, there's a massive presence.

If we look back over this way, you can see just a massive presence of law enforcement officers and cars that have arrived here at the scene. You know, police cars, constable cars from Allen Police, McKinney Police, another town called Wily. You know, a massive law enforcement response here to this shooting scene, and this is essentially the perimeter of everything that is unfolding here this afternoon.

[19:15:00]

We're still waiting word on when there will be a briefing from Allen Police officers to get a better sense and an official sense of what they're dealing with at this moment. But, you know, here, the presence still continues.

Out here, Paula, you're asking earlier about the kind of the sense on what it felt like, you know, very calm. There's definitely -- oh, you can see there a long procession of officers. Some of them appear to be obviously wearing body armor and long rifles. So that is part -- probably part of that process as they're continuing to walk through the outlet parking lot, going to each individual store. So, you know, these are all separate businesses. Having, you know, with stand-alone areas.

And, obviously many, many places to hide and to evade arrest here. And you can see that presence -- here's another long line of officers beginning to walk through the parking lot as well. But you can see from their demeanor, they're clearly, you know, walking deliberately. Not frantic, by any means. So clearly you start getting the sense that there's this part of the process of trying to secure the scene. Go through all of the different businesses that are here to make sure that there are no other shooters.

We have heard from a number of people that they saw, you know, multiple shooters. But as I think some of our guests and our analysts have been talking about, that that is probably -- could very well have been people confusing the police response with another active shooter. These are all the details and all the questions that we are trying to make sense of in these chaotic moments. And we will continue to work toward that.

But that is the scene and the presence that we have right now. Clearly, officers going through the parking lot and the stores here to make sure everything is secure and trying to figure out the best possible information we can get you at this point.

REID: It's an incredibly helpful report there, Ed, live on the scene. I saw police officers not too far away talking to people. Have you been able to overhear anything that they're telling these people who evacuated from the mall?

LAVANDERA: We haven't been able to hear too much. There was one woman who appeared tearful, out of breaths. She was -- several police officers had come over and talk to her. So, you know, that's one of those situations, very delicate situations. We obviously didn't talk to her in that moment. But you can figure out that, you know, perhaps that is someone who is -- had a love one either very close or perhaps wounded in this attack.

And obviously she's had several police officers there trying to help her. And I think they took her away to another location to, you know, either console her or to get the best information that she can possibly get. But clearly someone very distraught there and tearful about what exactly was unfolding here.

You know, and that really captures the franticness and the terrifying nature of a situation like this as so many people directly impacted by a shooting of this magnitude, or a situation of this magnitude. And just how quickly, you know, this word spread and how desperate people are for the best possible information that they can get. And it is hard to come by, especially in these chaotic moments as people are spread all over the place and trying to reconnect with loved ones to make sure everyone is OK.

REID: Some great reporting on the ground there. Ed, thank you so much for that. Steve Moore, I want to get your reaction to what we just heard in Ed's

report.

MOORE: Well, I think he's got a pretty good grasp of what's going on there from what he's seen. I did see the tactical officers moving across the street there in a couple of lines. After being on tactical teams for years, I can tell you that the way they were holding their weapons, the way they were moving, though it seemed casual, they were moving to something, moving to a position where they were probably going to start clearing at least some of the stores in the area.

Beyond that, you know, you're just trying to figure out what's going on. And part of the thing that they're going to be doing right now, the police, you know, they found this car, they found this person's I.D. and they have officers right now, officers, agents, whoever responds, trying to come up with background information on this individual. Obviously arrest records. Anything that they can find online and social media.

And they are trying to determine motive here even if the motive doesn't make sense to a normal person. There is a motive for that person who did the shooting. And if they find the motive, they can determine whether it's more or less likely that there's an accomplice.

[19:20:06]

If it was a gang shooting, there might have been an accomplice. The fact that he was wearing tactical clothes, that leads you to believe it wasn't a gang shooting. So there's all these different facets. And there are several investigations going on away from the scene of the crime right here. So this is not all the lawful activity going on, there are some very active, extensive, quickly developing law enforcement activity around Allen.

REID: And Chief Ramsey, you heard Ed Lavandera report from on the ground, police are still going store to store. What does that tell you?

RAMSEY: Well, they're going to clear the entire mall. It's going to take time to do it. But they can't leave anything to chance. So they' are going to go through the entire mall. They're not just looking for a possible gunman. You could have someone who's been injured. People still hiding. Because they heard the gunshots. All those kinds of things. So they're going to through the entire mall. There's no question about that.

But just to kind of add on to something that Steve said, there's a lot going on after -- away from the mall. If the gunman is dead, they have to I.D. him. Someone mentioned earlier that there's a vehicle. That they had the bomb squad take a look at. Well, they'll be serving warnings for the vehicle. Where does this guy live? They'll be going there. They'll be looking at the social media footprint.

There's be all kinds of things that's going on right now. And they're going to do it, and they're not going to give the person's name out because, obviously then, it's going to cause other types of programs with the investigation once they do that. But they're going to get as much done as they possibly can before this individual's identity becomes public. So there's a lot going on away from the mall. Everything is not just there. There's an awful lot going on away from the mall.

REID: And now that we know that there is also potentially a second shooter, we talked about going store by store. It's a massive complex. There were also hundreds of cars in that parking lot. Will they now also have to search those cars before clearing the scene?

RAMSEY: No, they won't search every car unless they have reason to suspect the car was being used by someone who is involved in this. I mean, you're talking about thousands of cars, hundreds of cars anyway. So again, you know, right now they're trying -- they've got a game plan. What they need to do. Interviewing people. Where they need to search. Who they need to search. All those kinds of things are taking place. But they're not going to be able to search every single car, every single person. But they will be narrowing this down and really focusing on that individual who is deceased, who was involved in this thig. That's going to be the primary focus right now.

REID: And Juliette Kayyem, as you heard Chief Ramsey say now that they'll have an identity of the shooter, they will likely get a search warrant to check a car, an apartment, a home, an office, anything like that. But also social media. Now we talked about how there's a playbook for this kind of a response. How important is this person's potential social media accounts?

KAYYEM: They'll be very important. In particular it seems, as we've seen in some of these cases that there was sort of a performative element to this. That he's in the military garb. He's acting like law enforcement or military. Maybe he is former but more likely, he's sort of, you know, play acting that we've seen with a lot of these shooters. They come in with these outfits. This is the -- we've talked about this a lot.

The sort of performative nature of gun ownership and gun violence now that is exacerbated by social media and the approval of pictures with people with guns. People in leadership. Their children with guns. That whatever you feel about the Second Amendment, it creates a permissive culture in America about gun ownership that is interpreted by people who may not be in on the joke, who may not be playing politics but actually believe that this is how you resolve disputes.

And so that is, that is why the social media will be relevant. What was this person absorbing? Were they targeting particular, you know, individuals if this is a limited attack? And then why the military of military-like garb? We also don't know, you know, as John Miller's reporting, we don't know if reports of a second shooter are if in fact a second shooter, that police need to make sure that there isn't one still around or other shooters within a Texas shopping mall, which we'd have to assume some percentage were armed.

[19:25:14]

So that's sort of what we're waiting for. Again, I want to make clear because I'm following Twitter as well. There is a difference between a mass care and a mass fatality event. So when your analyst, when us, when we're talking about not a lot of ambulances, what we're saying is that this is not what's called a mass care event, meaning that you're not surging the hospitals and preparing them for lots and lots of wounded people.

We do not know nor are we reporting what kind if this is a mass fatality event. We will get numbers verified soon. But what we can say is the limited number of ambulances, as Ed was saying, is pretty good proof that this is not what's called a mass care event. That is, as again, that is good news in terms of the numbers that we're looking at. So jut -- it may sound, you know, technical, whatever, it's not. It's very important.

If you have a mass care event, you have lots of people in the hospital. And the absence of ambulances is a sign that they didn't have one.

REID: Now, we have a congressman who represents this district.

Congressman, thank you so much for joining us. Keith Self, he represents Allen, and has reacted to news of the shooting tweeting, "We are devastated by the tragic news of the shootings that took place at the Allen Premium Outlets today. Our prayers are with the victims and their families, and all law enforcement on the scene. This is an ongoing situation. But the Allen PD has full control of the scene. A shooter is down. And there are multiple casualties. They are continuing to work to ensure the scene is safe. The public is being asked to stay away from the area while the investigation continues."

And the congressman joins us now.

Congressman, thank you for joining us. What is the latest information you can share?

REP. KEITH SELF (R-TX): Well, the shooter is dead. And I am told by law enforcement that there was only one shooter. They have now confirmed that. And there are multiple victims that I'm going to leave that to law enforcement to announce. But the scene is now secured, although it's still fluid. They have a lot of work to do on the scene so please stay away from the scene itself.

REID: And you say there are multiple victims. Can you give us a number of how many deaths there are at this point?

SELF: I will not. I will leave that to the local law enforcement to make that final determination because as I say, it is still fluid. So I want to leave that until that is absolutely certain. And I choose not to do that.

REID: Can you tell us a little bit about this area and this community? From the pictures we can see it looks like many areas across the country. But tell us about your community.

SELF: Well, Allen is a very -- it's a land-locked city of very prosperous, this area is. This mall has been there for years and years. Very popular, as you can tell. During the holiday seasons, it's often just very crowded. But these are people that are working-class, middle-class people that love to go and shop. Shopping is a big event in the Dallas area, as is eating out.

So it's a very popular place. And Allen is one of the places, though, in fact I just recently toured their police academy and saw their police chief just yesterday. And they have a very competent police force. They are well trained. They are well supported by the community. And that's why this is so shocking.

I know that the police handled it very well. I have no doubt. But they have a police force that is probably second to none anywhere in the states.

REID: What questions do you have right now? What do you want to know about what transpired here?

SELF: Well, I want to know the motive of the shooter. You know, so often it is either mental health or it's gang-related, which I don't expect in this case. But I'm interested in the motivation of the shooter. Because that is something too often shooters are known to law enforcement. They're just not -- they're not on the FBI watch list. They're not handled, whatever it is. Those are the questions I have.

[19:30:00]

What is the motive for the shooter so that we can take that into account in our planning for the future? I know as tragic as this is, I want to keep the focus today on the victims and their families because this was a tragic event in our community and we need to be focused on the fact that we now have families in Allen, Texas that are devastated by this action by this shooter, this gunman.

REID: And has law enforcement identified this individual at this point? Do they have ID? Do they know who this person was?

SELF: I don't know those details and we will wait for the law enforcement to announce them.

REID: And it sounds like since you still want to know the motive, it sounds like law enforcement does not know the motive for the shooting at this point. Is that correct?

SELF: I'm not -- I don't know that. I don't know if they do or don't, but I will tell you that these investigations take more than several hours because the scene is still fluid, I'm sure.

So I think it's going to take more than the few hours than we've had to determine that and I'll wait for the law enforcement.

REID: Are you concerned about the rise in these incidents across the country?

SELF: Of course, absolutely. Any time there is violence, whether it be in one of the big cities, riots, or the trashing of stores in Chicago, or shootings like this, you know, this is a very safe area. This is not usual. I know that we hear about the numbers of deaths on a weekend in Chicago, this is not usual in this area. So I'm certainly concerned about this and I know that we will put a lot of thought and study into this incident.

REID: You mentioned earlier about your community. What message do you have right now for the members of the community? Members of your district?

SELF: I want them to pray for the families that have been devastated this afternoon. These situations are terribly tragic. This is a tragedy and several families that will -- it will be with them for a long time. Pray for those families that God can comfort them as only he can that -- remember the families. That's my message today and that ought to be our focus this afternoon.

REID: Now, you know, Congressman, that is a common refrain after these incidents, after mass shootings, but many people argue that prayers aren't cutting it, prayers are not preventing the next mass shooting. What is your response to that criticism?

SELF: Well, those are people that don't believe in an Almighty God who has -- who is absolutely in control of our lives.

I'm a Christian, I believe that He is.

We have people though, with mental health that we're not taking care of. Since this nation made the decision that we were going to close the mental health institutions, many of these situations are based on that and people that say, and really, I would like to stay away from the politics today, because I want to focus on the victims.

Today, we should be focused on the families. Prayer is powerful in the lives of those people that are devastated. I know people want to make this political, but prayers are important and they are powerful in the families who are devastated right now.

REID: Well, Congressman, respectfully, it's difficult to get away from the politics, you are a politician, you are an elected representative of this area.

You said this community is safe, but what are you going to do to ensure that the residents of your community will remain safe from further events like this?

SELF: Well, the local police and the sheriff in this community are the people who do that. They are the ones that protect the community. That's what law enforcement does.

And I will tell you in this community, the law enforcement takes it very seriously. They are well trained. They're well equipped. And they will take this very seriously and we'll see what they have to say about it once they complete their investigation and tell us the results.

REID: Well, Congressman, local law enforcement officials do not pass laws that relate to how to respond to mental health crises or access to firearms. So as a legislator, do you have any ideas about how you can keep your community safe in your role using your power as an elected lawmaker?

SELF: One more time, today, we are focused on the victims and their families and we are going to lift them up in prayer and ask that God comfort them in this tragic time that we had this afternoon.

[19:35:06]

REID: Congressman, I believe it is possible to both pray for the victims, but also think ahead as a politician, as an elected representative, about how you keep your community safe. I'll let you have the last word.

SELF: We'll do that. But today, we are focused on the families and the victims, praying for them, that they are comforted in their loss, in the tragedy that they suffered today.

REID: Congressman, thank you for joining us.

SELF: You bet.

REID: Chief Ramsey, I want to get your reaction to the Congressman's answers there.

CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: One, you don't really want to know my true reaction, but I'll give you the best I can in a more sanitized version.

Listen, it is an old saying, you have to be able to walk and chew gum. There is nothing -- I mean, we have these mass shootings almost every day, we never get out of a mourning period. I mean, you know, when you can actually do something.

And so if you mention mental health, okay, then what are you going to do to keep the guns on the hands of people who may be suffering from mental health and are a danger to themselves or to others? What are you going to do?

I mean, you know, we just keep going through this over and over again, and we get the same thing over and over again. You know, this is not the time, this is not -- well, when is the time? When is the time?

Listen, I've been in policing for a lot of years, you know, Chicago, DC, Philadelphia. I've been to thousands of homicide scenes.

I've seen what happens on the streets of our city every single day, and at some point in time, we've got to do something. I mean, you know, listen, I believe in God, I believe in prayer, I believe -- but I also believe that God gave us a brain so we could take action, too, and this is a time for action.

And I just don't hear it, I just don't see it and I know nothing is going to happen, at least not as far as this particular individual is concerned. I don't know him personally, but, you know, he didn't sound like he's ready to light a fire and actually get anything done. So at some point in time, if he get off his knees and get off his butt and start doing something, because that's what it's going to take to really turn this thing around. But I'm not optimistic any of that is going to happen.

REID: Steve Moore, I also want to get your reaction to the Congressman, there, he punted on about three or four questions about what he is going to do as an elected leader in this community, your reaction?

STEVE MOORE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CONTRIBUTOR: Well, obviously, as we were just discussing, there's two problems going on right now. You have a mental health crisis and you have a problem that high powered weapons are getting into the hands of people whose mental health is -- has been damaged.

We need to go forward and get that. We need to go forward and put barriers to those people getting guns. The other problem we have, though, is that we have tens of millions of semi-automatic rifles in society right now and if we were able to wave a magic wand and stop the sale or manufacture of them right now, we've still got to deal with the fact that there are millions and millions and millions of them out there.

So we have to hit it from the mental health side. We have to hit it from the firearm side, and we have to hit it from hardening areas where there are a lot of public involvement.

We did this after 9/11 with airports. We're going to have to, I'm afraid, do that same thing with schools, malls, churches, things like that.

REID: Steve Moore, thank you for that.

Juliet Kayyem, Charles Ramsay, Camila Bernal, our breaking news coverage will continue, but we are going to take a quick break.

Stay with CNN for the very latest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:41:08]

REID: We are going live now to a press conference by the Allen, Texas Police Department. Let's listen.

CHIEF BRIAN HARVEY, CITY OF ALLEN POLICE DEPARTMENT: ... call at the outlet mall. He heard gunshots, went to the gunshots, engaged the suspect and neutralized the suspect.

He also then called for ambulances. We have a multi-agency response helping us work the scene. They helped us evacuate the mall. We've set up reunification areas.

I've talked to the governor. The governor has pledged all the support that the state has, so we appreciate that. It goes without saying that our deepest sympathies are with the families of the victims. This is a tragedy.

People will be looking for answers and we just --we're sorry that those families are experiencing that loss.

We'll have another briefing.

The fire chief is going to talk in just a minute, but we'll have another briefing in about two hours. We anticipate having it here, but if we don't we'll let you know where it is.

JONATHAN BOYD, FIRE CHIEF ALLEN FIRE DEPARTMENT: Hello, I'm Jonathan Boyd, fire chief of the Allen Fire Department. Like Chief Harvey said, I also don't have a lot of information for you. What I do have is that we immediately implemented our active attack integrated response and formed some rescue task force with the police so that we could quickly get to the victims here at the site.

We transported nine victims to area trauma facilities. Those are the ones that the Allen Fire Department transported. There may be others that were transported in private vehicles, but those are the ones that we know of.

Thank you.

REPORTER: Can you talk about the victims?

BOYD: No.

REID: So we heard right there, a brief press conference by law enforcement officials in Allen, Texas. They described how law enforcement engaged the shooter, they shot him.

There have been multiple victims, but so far, elected representatives and law enforcement have declined to give a number of victims though they did say that nine victims were transported to a medical facility saying additional people could have potentially been transferred in private cars. They will not say at this point, though, how many people are deceased besides the shooter. They said they will offer another update in two hours.

Chief Ramsey, I want to get your reaction to again, a very brief update from law enforcement.

RAMSEY: Well, they are still in the process of identifying victims and notifying next of kin and so forth, so they are just reluctant to put too much information out in terms of numbers. You've got a lot of people right now that are desperately trying to determine whether or not their loved one was injured or killed or what have you.

REID: Charles -- Chief Ramsey, I want to stop you for just a second. I believe the press conference has started again. Let's listen.

So it seems like they tried to walk away but reporters brought them back to the mics to try to get some additional information. Reporters were told there on the scene that at this point, there are no firm numbers of the victims from this shooting incident. Chief Ramsey, please continue.

RAMSEY: Well, I was -- I didn't hear who actually killed the suspect. Was it a police officer off duty? On duty? When they cut into the press conference that part had already been discussed. So I didn't hear that part.

But I'm sure that by the time we have the second press conference, they will have had a chance to identify any victims reach out to next of kin, I mean and that's incredibly important.

[19:45:03]

I mean you can only imagine what it's like if a family member had been shopping and you haven't heard from them. I mean, this is -- you don't want to find that out through the media. And so it's very important that they take their time, identify people, make the necessary notifications, and then they'll start releasing information about victims.

REID: And Camila Bernal, you've been keeping us up-to-date all day with the tick tock of what we know. You just heard that press conference. Help us reset what exactly we know has happened today.

CAMILA BERNAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so authorities responded to calls of an active shooter situation at the outlet mall there in Allen, Texas. This is a suburb of Dallas, Texas.

It was a busy Saturday at the mall, just like any other weekend at the outlet mall. We had heard from our colleague, John Miller and his sources that the shooter had been killed and authorities just now confirming that the shooter was killed.

We do know that they also identified his car and there was a bomb squad that was looking at his car. And then I will toss it back to you in terms of the rest of the information. But of course, we're still waiting and it's going to take at least two hours to get the rest of the details here.

REID: Camila Bernal, thank you for that. Let's take a listen to what police just said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Is there anything else?

CHIEF BRIAN HARVEY, CITY OF ALLEN POLICE DEPARTMENT: No, no, it's too early. It's too early. We don't have any firm numbers, and I would not want to put that information out. So, thank you.

REPORTER: Is there still a threat of shooters?

HARVEY: I'm sorry.

REPORTER: Is there still a threat of shooter? Exactly --

HARVEY: We don't -- we don't believe -- we believe he acted alone and we don't believe that there is another threat at this time.

REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE).

HARVEY: Yes, there are. But we do not have -- we do not have an accurate count. So, that's it. Thanks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: So there you hear the Allen Police Department saying that it is too early to have any firm numbers. Earlier, we talked to the Congressman from this district, he confirmed that there are multiple fatalities, but it does not appear that law enforcement has a clear motive at this point.

But I want to go to Juliette Kayyem. I want to get your reaction to this law enforcement presser.

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: So let me begin with what we do know, which is we do know that there are victims besides the shooter, we didn't know that before because this could have been an interaction between law enforcement and the shooter that just ended in the shooter's death.

So we know, just through clarification that there are -- when the police chief had to come back that there are civilian fatalities, that's going to be relevant, obviously.

I should make clear that it would be prudent for the police department to say at least how many we know are dead. I think people know by now that these numbers can change, but by leaving it open, you know, I'm sitting here not just as an analyst, but just as a citizen just thinking like, they don't know yet? I mean, it's been a couple of hours, it makes me you know, is it four? Is it 40? Is it 400? We don't know.

So I think that police departments need to get more comfortable just given how often this, to sort of say at least, we know, at least we know at least four dead.

It is clear that they're looking in other shops, looking in other areas to make sure there was no other shootings elsewhere. So, I understand that, but I think the openness of the fatality number even though we know nine have been taken for injury is something that I hope they can clarify before two hours. That's a long time for say family members who haven't been able to reach a kid or someone or maybe they have a kid that lives in the area and that kid is offline today, but was nowhere near the shopping mall.

That is sort of, as I said as a citizen and an analyst, we can begin to give numbers even if they're not definitive just to give us a scope. It is a big shopping mall. This could have been horrifying, we just don't know yet.

So that's my first; the second, is of course, that the system at least once activated, got everyone evacuated in time. Family unification as I've been speaking of before, is ongoing. Saturday at a mall, there will be lots of teenagers and kids unsupervised who thought that they were just going to go shopping or meet friends, so parents and others are kept away from the site of the shopping, and family unification is going on in the perimeter.

[19:50:04]

So those are the two pieces, the injured, the unknown fatality rate. Again, I think police departments have to get out faster because these are horrifying for communities. I mean, honestly I don't know what the number is, I could have a minimum at least, if they knew and third, the family unification, and then we'll just wait for the numbers.

REID: And Juliette, I also want to note that in addition to the nine victims transported to medical facilities, they did say what they don't have a handle on is how many people may have been transported into private cars. But absolutely, they could give me the total that they have.

Now, Chief Ramsey, I want to go to you for your reaction to the few details that we did just receive from law enforcement.

RAMSEY: Well, I agree with Juliette, I think they could have given an approximate number of fatalities and so forth. But again, you know, this isn't something that happens every day for Allen, Texas and you know, the chief is doing the best he can to put as much accurate information out as he can right now, and so we'll just have to wait, I guess.

We don't know the status of the individuals that were transported. It is not unusual at all to have people that are driving themselves to the hospital or driven to the hospital by others if they are injured. We don't know how many of those injuries could have been gunshot wounds versus just the chaos in the stampede that takes place whenever you have a situation like that.

So we'll get more information as time goes on. I think they could have given a little bit more, but the chief has a better handle on the situation than I do, certainly. And we'll just have to go with his instincts, I guess.

REID: And he says we'll get another update in about two hours. But right now, our Ed Lavandera is on the scene. Ed, you've been talking to witnesses, what have you learned?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, many of the witnesses we have been talking to were inside this outlet mall area in that parking lot as you see in the distance, many of them very close to where the shooting unfolded.

What we've heard from several of them is that they believe that the shooting in various different spurts, I'm going to get out of the way here, Dave, behind your Dave --

Dave, behind you, there is a police officer trying to get out. So, we're going to -- sorry, we're going to try to move out of the way here one second so this officer can move. Anyway, Paula, as I was saying, as the officer was leaving the scene here, the witnesses that we talked to say that they felt like the amount of time that the shooting lasted was about -- went over the course of 20 to 30 minutes when many people were then scrambling to get into the back storage areas of these outlet malls, and that's where many of them took cover.

We also spoke with one witness who works at a hamburger place -- a restaurant there inside kind of where the you see the flashing lights there in the distance, she actually showed us a picture of one of the victims on the ground in front of that store. She believed that that was the gunman.

We have not been able to confirm that at this moment. That is something that we're continuing to walk through, but we saw the picture of officers standing over one of the victims there. So the intensity, she was shaking, trembling, completely traumatized by witnessing -- and the experience that she underwent.

Several of the other witnesses and you can hear from one of them, now, we're going to play some sound, he talked about how he was -- what he believes to be just missing the area where the shooting unfolded, had just walked through that area about five seconds earlier and this is what he described in these moments after the shooting erupted.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw two ladies rushing towards me and then one was like "someone is shooting, someone is shooting" and then right behind her on the other side, right in front of the DKNY, the guy was -- he just -- he held his neck like this and it was like blood just dripping down, you know.

And then we went inside and then I was -- I had like two people in front of me, well, go down, go down. So we all went down, and then I heard like three shots, bop-bop-bop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAVANDERA: That gentleman and many others that we've spoken to, he was one of the ones that had taken cover, then ran into a department store and hid in the storage area in the back of the store where many of these people said they've waited for more than an hour while they waited and sat there really getting no information as to what was unfolding in the open air parking lot.

And then those witnesses said an hour, hour-and-a-half later that law enforcement started coming through the stores and clearing those areas and then they were walked out, told to walk out and to leave the parking lot area with their hands in the air.

So that is, you know some incredible detail of what many of these witnesses and people who were at this outlet mall here today experienced in the moments after this chaotic shooting scene.

[19:55:14] REID: Ed, thank you so much for that reporting live on the ground. I want to go to Camila Bernal, who's been helping us report this out.

Camila, I'm told that you also have some new sound.

BERNAL: Yes, so Ed has been talking to people in his area. We have affiliates on the ground as well that have been talking to people. As you can see, there are so many witnesses to what happened here today. And specifically, a lot of them who say they believe they saw the shooter.

Here is one man who was at the mall with his mom, and believes he saw the shooter and the victims. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My mom and I were in Johnson & Murphy shopping, and out of nowhere heard about like 10 pops go off and I looked at the customer next to me I was like, "Was that gunshot?" And he was like, "No, it's probably just construction or something."

And then like heard ten, fifteen more shots go off, and so I ran to the front of the store and we were like, no, that's shooting and we see the guy.

There is this guy dressed in all black wearing a vest, has an assault rifle and he is just shooting people right across. He was at like Francesca's area shooting at people. So we got everyone in the store at the back of the store and just camped out there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We heard like a bunch of shots, but we thought it was firecrackers at first. And then a lot of people just started running like straight to our door, trying to come in and everything.

But my manager, he went out and like I guess, when he was opening the door, like people just kept running in, trying to run in, but he saw -- I guess, he saw the person. He was like with the vest and everything, had a gun it looked like an AK. Like he looked like he was straining. So like, I don't know, like what he was feeling before, but he looked like he was -- he knew what he was -- what he wanted to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERNAL: And a law enforcement source did confirm to our colleague, John Miller, that the shooter was in tactical gear. We also know, according to this law enforcement source that authorities did identify the shooter's car.

They were getting a bomb squad to look at the car to try to get as much evidence as possible. Of course, they're talking to all of these witnesses as well, trying to figure out exactly what happened.

So I think that's part of the reason why we're not getting a lot of details from authorities. We've mentioned this, we know that people were injured. Police just not giving us a number of fatalities or exactly what happened. The fire chief there saying that nine people were transported. So we know there are people who were injured in this shooting. We're waiting to hear a lot of those details from the Allen Police Department.

As of now, they are saying it's going to take about two hours to get that information. And again, there are just people who have been traumatized after seeing all of this. You heard those witnesses there who believe they saw the shooter and those victims -- Paula.

REID: Camila Bernal, thank you for that.

Steve Moore, I want to get your reaction as a law enforcement expert to the eyewitness accounts. You've just heard both in Ed's report and Camila's report. What do these tell you?

STEVE MOORE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CONTRIBUTOR: Well, as horrible as this sounds, it's kind of become the average active shooter. As Juliette said before, there's this performance aspect to this, where they are dressing up like scary men and going in and killing people for whatever sick motivation they have.

And you can start making generalizations on motives and targets, potential targets based on this one fact. You know, obviously not something you're going to take into court, but you have to have assumptions going forward in an investigation to optimize your time on this.

So this unfortunately, sounds like somebody who has been motivated by the past shootings over and over and over and came into a -- came into a mall like this and took lives.

REID: And what do you see happening now on the ground? We are several hours past this incident. What is happening right now?

MOORE: Well, the police have said that they don't believe that there is a second shooter. So, if they are completely invested in that belief, they will probably go through stores as the chief was talking earlier, as much to clear them from a potential shooter as it is to make sure that nobody is still hiding out.

These are very terrifying moments for people obviously and sometimes the police have to come in and say, all clear, you can come out.

So that's what I see the police beginning to do.

[20:00:16]