Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsroom
Police Responding To Active Shooter At Texas Outlet Mall; Police Responding To Active Shooter At Texas Outlet Mall; Source: One Suspect Believed To Be Dead In Shooting At TX Mall; Manhunt Underway For Potential Second Suspect. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired May 06, 2023 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00]
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: And also the reports of what people were hearing audio in terms of how many bullets. They are often unreliable at first, because people are hearing different things. So we're going to -- we don't know yet what this looks like.
We do know though, just in terms of the disruption of these mass shootings. This is a mall, massive mall, many entrances and exits, people are leaving. That's traumatic. Period.
Like whether this is a big deal or a small deal. Living like this is traumatic for people who just thought they were going to the mall on a Saturday. There is an orderly exit, which means that whatever they were worried about, whether it was an active shooter, or whatever else has been disabled, or is not presently a threat, people don't seem to be running, and then we wait.
Because the waiting is, of course, the search of the shopping mall to determine what noise was this? Why were so many people talking about an active shooter in a soft and rich target. I mean, that's the scary thing here. These are soft targets, they have to be, and they are also rich in the sense of there are just lots of people at a mall on a Saturday, and here we are.
PAULA REID, CNN HOST: And you can see just dozens and dozens, easily hundreds of people in an orderly fashion, being escorted out of the mall, but Tom Verni, I want to go back to you because not only do they have the mall, but we can see there are probably hundreds of cars there as well.
So in law enforcement, response to something like this. How do you factor that there are hundreds of places potentially that this person could hide in the parking lot as well?
TOM VERNI, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE, LAW ENFORCEMENT CONSULTANT: Yes, this type of crime scene is, you know, and Chief Ramsey could probably corroborate this as well, this is a nightmare. For more reasons than one. It is a nightmare because of the actual incident that we're talking about, where one or more people have been injured or possibly killed.
And then also for law enforcement to try to contain a crime scene on this scale, is just a daunting task, you're talking about, you know, dozens, probably more likely, hundreds, maybe even a couple thousand people or more, in a very wide area, and numerous places inside and outside, where a potential shooter or shooters could be hiding.
So now, you have law enforcement trying to get in there to neutralize the shooter or shooters, right? So you know, they are trying to do that, while they are also trying to navigate how -- what their level of safety is at that moment, right?
Because the shooter is not going to just stop, but just the average citizen, if anything they're going to attempt to shoot at law enforcement, it has happened before.
So I mean, you know, so now they have to think about trying to save lives, but also making sure that their safety is paramount, because they get taken out and then who's going to help the average citizen who is under this, you know, the siege?
REID: That's a great point and Charles Ramsey, I want to go back to you. We're seeing all of these law enforcement vehicles representing different organizations, different agencies. How do you coordinate in a situation that is this chaotic? How do they coordinate among one another, to decide how to approach this, potentially a very dangerous situation.
CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That's all part of the training incident command. As you organize, people who are given very specific responsibilities. I'm sure that they sharing jointly, so there are going to be a variety of agencies that will respond state, federal, local, but they do train for this and they use what's called ICS Incident Command, which determines who is in charge, not only who is in charge overall, but who is in charge of what, and that's very important.
Because right now, you're going to have to conduct a search, so you're going to have to really be organized, you can do a systematic search. The other thing I want to mention, you know, these malls have a lot of -- there are a lot of video.
So someone is somewhere in that security room right now trying to isolate the area where the shots allegedly took place to see what they can find out. You know, can they identify an individual who is responsible? You know, what were the circumstances that took place when the shots were fired, and I'm assuming shots were fired. We don't even know that right now.
So I think, it is important that we don't speculate too much, but someone is going through the video as well. But Incident Command is how you organize and that's how you train, and it is very unfortunate because we get an awful lot of practice.
I mean, you know, your viewers know as much about what police ought to do when they go to the scene of an active shooter is people that have been in police for 20 to 30 years, because it is unfortunate, but you see it almost every single day.
This is what we're talking about and it is nuts. It's crazy.
REID: You make a great point about how so many people, having watched these tragic events play out on the news kind of in some ways know what to do.
I see some people holding your hands up, some people not. Do you think they're being instructed to do that or do you think people may be doing that voluntarily.
[18:05:06]
RAMSEY: Well, when the police are getting them out, they are asking them, you know, you need to see their hands. You need to make sure -- you don't know who the shooter is. So you know, you've just got a mass of people.
Now, whether or not they need to keep them up once they are out, that's up to the individual, but when the police are escorting them out, they are asking to keep their hands visible so they could see and make sure that they aren't armed.
And then of course, you see some with them up, some not, but that's pretty much what's happening there.
REID: And Juliette Kayyem, from the footage that we can see, we can't see everything. We certainly can't see inside the mall, but this appears to be pretty orderly right now; orderly lines of people exiting. Law enforcement officials all over the scene, but no one appears to be running or in a panic. What does that suggest to you about what could be going on here?
KAYYEM: Well, just as chief Ramsey was saying, Incident Command isn't just how one is structured, how all these different agencies are structured. It is what's the order of command? So of course, run is always it.
So word has gotten out to the Incident Command that you can have an orderly evacuation, that they don't believe that the public is any longer under threat. That's either because once again, this was either a false alarm in which you know, you're having honestly these fears of active shooter come up. And so you know, things are getting amplified, we don't know; or a hundred shots are fired as we're hearing from some witnesses. That's a big range, and so the police need to be careful in terms of how they're evacuating people.
The most important thing now that you're seeing is of course, family unification. It is the most pressing issue for people who are leaving. I saw an H&M, anyone with teen daughters or sons knows this store and you know, this is a shopping mall on a Saturday.
Kids, teenagers may have been there alone. Family members dispersed; some go here, some go there. People are in the parking lot waiting for family, and so you just have a lot of madness, in terms of getting people together, because you need to get all of these people away from the shopping mall. So in the next hour or so, there is going to be an incredible focus on people who weren't witnesses, who just happened to be in the mall, get them with their families and get them out.
You know, it's traumatic for kids. I mean, you just -- and parents, but I mean, if you're alone in a mall, and you're evacuated for active shooter, you know, we may be putting them through this often, but it doesn't get any less traumatic.
REID: Incredibly traumatic. And Tom Verni, I just want to get back to you, because we see all of these people being escorted out of this mall and it appeared from one of the pictures that there was a massive group of people across the street, it appears that's where they are being escorted.
But when you don't know where an alleged shooter is, is there any consideration to not keeping everyone sort of packed into one spot?
VERNI: Again, this situation is fluid. So I think they are trying to establish areas where they can have gatherings of people, either A, that have seen something and they can gather as much information about the potential if there is a potential shooter or shooters and/or what did they see, what did they hear versus those who didn't see anything, and they wanted to keep them temporarily in some sort of a safety zone.
And also, you know, there may be some that are injured. So, I would imagine there's a potential triage station that has been set up with medical EMTs and whatnot to treat those who are maybe again, if this was a shooting, and they were injured by the shooting, but also potentially maybe injured by people, you know, stampeding out of the mall.
In a lot of these cases, especially with this many people, you know, people are fleeing for the exits, they're flying down escalators and stairs to get out. And, you know, some people get seriously injured that way.
So, there are going to be a number of reasons why they're going to have people clustered up as, as long as they feel that that those areas are within a safe distance from any potential danger that may be occurring within the mall itself.
And again, at this point, they may not be any danger at all. The danger has passed. It's unclear you know, based on reports, it is unclear what exactly they're facing inside there.
So again, because the situation is so fluid, they're kind of doing this on the run. Regardless of the training that occurs and again, Chief Ramsey probably opine on this as well. You know, when these things occur, even with the best training, and you know, the increased levels of training and the more the training takes place, when these things occur, it still is chaos at the get go, and then as things kind of play out, it kind of calms down and we can get things done in a more methodical manner. And especially again, in such a large facility such as this, it is one thing when it is a smaller facility like a church, but when we get to a school, it becomes a lot more to manage, right? [18:10:10]
And here, we are talking about a massive shopping facility with a massive parking lot. So it just -- you know, it makes it a much heavier lift when you try to coordinate all of these moving parts at the same time.
REID: It certainly looks like a very well-coordinated response, at least from the pictures that we can see here.
Now, Camila Bernal, I want to go back to you. Our reporter who has been following this, I know details are trickling in. But Camila, can you help us reset.
What do we know at this point about what has transpired here?
CAMILA BERNAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, here's what we know.
Police have mentioned what they're -- they are not saying, you know, we don't know exactly how many people or what exactly is going on. Details are very limited, but they have said that they were responding to shots that were fired.
So, I know that a lot of the analysts have said, we do not know exactly if shots were even fired. So far, that's the only thing that officials have said. The ATF actually saying that they were responding to an active shooter and headed that way.
So, we know that there are multiple agencies that are responding. As you can see, there are crowds of people that have been out there trying to figure out exactly what is going on, where their loved ones are because as many people have already mentioned, there were many people who are out this outlet in Allen, Texas. This is the Premium Outlets in Allen.
So of course, there were many, many people that were shopping or in the area. And authorities, what they're telling people is to stay away from this area as they handle this incident in particular. So again, they're just asking people, if you're in the area, it's better if you stay away.
We have heard from witnesses or people who live in the area that say they have heard a lot of gunshots. But again, we're waiting for authorities to confirm exactly what happened.
This is still a developing situation. We are waiting to get confirmation from authorities. But clearly, there is a lot going on at the outlets there in Allen, Texas and authorities just trying to get a handle of all of this.
One of the members of our team called the Allen Police Department and they said they were extremely busy. It appears they are the ones in charge or sort of leading this investigation and leading in terms of getting all of this under control, but we do know that there are multiple agencies that are responding to this as well.
This happened, you know, on a Saturday afternoon. This is a suburb of Dallas, Texas. And again, we are just waiting for a lot of these details to be confirmed.
But of course, we already know that there are people, many people who have been impacted by this, who are trying to figure out where their loved ones are, who are concerned.
You know, our affiliate has been talking to a lot of people on the ground, who are just saying, you know, they were terrified, and are still trying to figure out exactly what happened. And so we do have our team in Texas headed that way, and should be able to confirm a lot of these details, you know, in the coming minutes or hours. But again, we are waiting for police to really tell us exactly what happened here.
We know, according to authorities that shots were possibly fired. But again, Paula, we're just waiting for a lot of these details to be confirmed.
REID: Thank you, Camila for that update.
Now, I want to get input from our panel here.
We're seeing hundreds and hundreds of people. Charles Ramsey, I'm going to start with you. Pretty much, I think everybody has visited a Premium Outlet somewhere in the country at one point in time. Most Americans are so sick of this happening almost every day in this country, certainly every week.
Is there anything that can be done to prevent this from being a reoccurring event in America?
RAMSEY: Well, yes, there are things that can be done that can have an impact, and there are so many guns out there now, you may not see it immediately. But obviously, there needs to be thoughtful discussion.
And right now, it's hard to really get any kind of meaningful conversation going on. It seems like any laws that are passed, actually put more guns out there with concealed carry, without permits and all those kinds of things.
And so you know, people need to take their actions and put people in an office that will actually do something. You know, getting back to the scene here. You know, what you see is one thing what you don't see is just as important and what you don't see are ambulances leaving here going to a trauma center because if you do have injured people, you would think that you would see a lot of activity in that regard.
[18:10:06]
Now that could be good or bad, but I've noticed that I've not seen any real movement from EMTs or ambulances, and I think that says something as well. But people can get sick and tired. Everybody is sick and tired, but nothing seems to change, and it will only change when you get different people in both the state and federal -- at the federal level and Congress that are willing to have a discussion and actually come up with something that can protect Second Amendment rights, but at the same time, keep guns out of the hands of people that should not have them and get rid of the guns like assault weapons, that the civilian population simply do not need to have access to.
I'm not optimistic that's going to happen, but you asked the question.
REID: Yes. Agreed. Juliette Kayyem, I mean, you heard Charles Ramsey there saying that a lot of the gun laws that have been passed, just seem to make it easier for more guns to be out there.
Do you think there is anything that can be done? Of course, voting very important; legislature, Key to passing any gun reform. Is there anything else that you believe is at factor here?
KAYYEM: Well, I mean, it would just be the pace of these killings that I often say it seems daily now whenever we're on, it's just, you know, we're hearing reports of, you know, lots and lots of bullets, or the noise of bullets. But we don't know how many dead yet and we are not confirming how many dead yet.
And, you know, part of it is just the ability, the access -- a second feature is, of course, red flag laws, which are known to work, they're sort of the easiest thing. There is no sort of constitutional issue involved. And then the third is increasing the age of access to these guns. The fourth is, of course, a ban. And if you can't get the fourth, let's try for the first three.
I will say something I want to repeat this, too. We are trained for you. We are trained based on experience, but we are trained when we're on air to tell you what we're not seeing. We're not seeing lots of ambulances.
This, as Chief Ramsey was saying, this means that the that the number of dead is known and that, and in other words, that there's -- that the injured are not being rushed out. And if there are dead that it is not a mass casualty event. We know from being on air again and again, that hospitals would be readied for a mass casualty event. And that would mean the deployment of ambulances or EMT systems, these are all mapped out.
We know how to do this through EMT calls to just surge your ambulances, because in a shopping mall, you aren't going to know how many people are there. Someone inside the shopping mall, someone of authority, an incident commander has been able at least to give the word that you don't need that surge of ambulances, and we're looking all around the shopping mall, I can see it.
You know, in this world, like the fact that I'm saying this is good news, I apologize, because there still could be several dead, but this is not a mass casualty event like the ones we've seen in the past, at least in terms of the ambulance deployment. And that's why we're here, it is just to tell people what they're seeing. REID: And, Tom, I want to go back to you. You heard Juliette, Charles Ramsey both saying that it's notable that you're not seeing EMTs. You're not seeing ambulances, what else are you seeing or not seeing in these live photos that we have here? VERNI: Well, I mean, we are seeing a very heavy police contingent, which is good. We do see an orderly evacuation of each of the wings of this mall. That is also good.
I would imagine again, if you had -- if you did have a shooter on the loose and someone who was actively taking shots of folks, you might see more of a panicked exit, right?
So we're not seeing that. So, that's good. And what's unfortunate is that in one of the early reports, someone had mentioned that, you know, someone thought that there was some sort of construction work going on, and maybe it was, you know, a nail gun or something of that fashion.
And isn't that a shame that, you know, we're living in a time where, you know, if in the event that that is the case, where they were doing construction work, and you hear what sounds like gunshots, but it's not. all it takes is one or two people to start a panic and say, oh my God, there's gunshots, right? And then that just spreads like wildfire. Because at that point, people are just, you know, tunnel visioned on getting the hell out of there with themselves and/or if they have young kids with them, they want to get them out of there.
And that's the state of affairs that we're living in. You know, and Chief Ramsey had mentioned this, too, is that you have in some places, there are some states where they're allowing people to get guns without a permit.
[18:20:07]
I mean, what the hell is going on here? I just don't understand. You know, we've had so many of these shootings and I kind of -- I think, I do understand, but what I do understand to me is that you have folks in the federal government that feel that the body count is not high enough.
And, you know, for me, you know, looking at these mass shootings in the last two or three decades that we've had since Columbine, at least anyway, you know, for me that the line in the sand, not that any of the other ones are not as important or not as traumatic was Sandy Hook, you know, because when you had 20 first grade children, and six of their teachers being slaughtered in their classrooms, for me personally, that was kind of like what shook me to the core. Not that any of these those shootings weren't horrible, which they were.
But to me, that was almost a defining moment in our society, where, as a law -- someone who is going to enact laws to keep us safe and that is the primary job of anyone working on state and federal level is to ensure the safety of their constituents.
And when that happens, and then virtually nothing is done and then you have numerous mass shootings take place, in all parts of the country, in all different types of venues, you're not safe going to a mall, you're not safe at a concert, you're not safe in a church, you're not safe in schools nowadays, it is unbelievable to me that we are in this state of affairs, where the love for guns, high capacity, high powered guns is so important to people that they're willing to put our safety as Americans at risk time and time and time again. It is just infuriating to me that we are still finding ourselves in these situations where virtually nothing has been done.
And then the police have to go and deal with a situation like this, on top of everything else that they have to do with law enforcement, to come up on a scene where you have a mass shooting is something that no human should have to see.
And then law enforcement sees this on a daily basis. So you know, the trauma that the everyday average American is facing nowadays and the PTSD that's involved with these shootings, and then law enforcement having to try to make some kind of sense of this, and keep everyone safe, it is just an impossible task in the current state of society that we're living in, and I just don't understand why more people on both sides of the aisle, I don't care what your political persuasion is, are not doing more to protect our citizens. I just don't get it.
REID: I'm told that we have some witnesses who have shared what they saw or what they heard with us.
Camila Bernal, I want to go to you. What are we hearing from these witnesses?
BERNAL: Well, look, we're hearing of many, many people who are just worried, who are concerned who are going through a very scary situation and our affiliate there in Allen, Texas, talking to people who have been at the mall who were coming out of the mall, and parents who were looking for their children, one specifically who was looking for his daughter who was working at the mall.
I want to take you to some of those witnesses and what exactly they're saying. Here they are.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he was --
BERNAL: And said that was a victim.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was covered in blood. Yes.
BERNAL: An active shooter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As I was holding the door open, and I was letting like the customers like come inside the store, he pretty much was walking down the sidewalk and he was just like blazing for the most part, just shooting his gun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Inside or outside? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Outside. Outside the store. He was walking down the sidewalk towards -- he was walking down the sidewalk towards Fat Burger, and he was just shooting his gun everywhere for the most part.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERNAL: So, you're hearing their witnesses describing what they say is the shooter. We're waiting for the Allen Police Department to really confirm exactly what's going on here because so far, the only thing that they've said is that this is an active investigation.
We were trying to call the Allen Police Department and someone you know referred to it as a shooting, but said they were extremely busy. So we're really waiting for authorities to give us that confirmation. Because you have some witnesses who say they've heard gunshots. You saw those witnesses there who say they saw the shooter at the mall.
And so what we need is that confirmation from authorities to really say what happened here. So far. We know that this incident happened at the Allen Premium Outlets. This is a suburb of Dallas, Texas and you're seeing the images you're hearing those witnesses this is developing.
There's a lot of commotion as people are trying to get out of that area and authorities right now just telling people if you're in the area, do not go to the mall, do not getting near that area as authorities are trying to get all of this under control -- Paula.
REID: Camila Bernal, thank you for that update.
[18:25:10]
Charles Ramsey, I want to go back to you. It certainly seems like recently, there has been an uptick in mass shootings. Is that accurate? And if so, why are we seeing this increase?
RAMSEY: Well, I mean, it is accurate, but what we're not seeing are the shootings that take place every single day. I mean, we focus on mass shootings, as defined by the FBI, you know, for more people, but we're losing people every single day on the streets of our city, sometimes it's one, two, three, their lives mean just as much as those that are killed in mass shootings.
So yes, it is definitely on an uptick and it is going to continue to go up. It is not going to solve itself, and thoughts and prayers aren't going to do it. If thoughts and prayers work, we'd be the safest country in a world.
But obviously, there has to be action, and until people get to a point where they just demand it, then you're not going to see anything that's going to really change and we are going to be having this conversation over and over and over again.
You've got an awful lot of people. I was very concerned when I heard that witness say somebody just walking down through the mall, just randomly firing. I mean, that's absolutely crazy. Now, the fact that people are moving kind of, you know, in an orderly fashion, you don't see the police running here and there. I mean, they may have resolved this issue already, as far as the gunman is concerned, but we just don't know, and until we do know, I don't want to speculate too much.
But it is just -- it's crazy. I mean, you know, I have to keep my phone nearby and never know when you guys are going to call, because we have another mass shooting somewhere.
It's just a question of where it's going to be, not if it's going to happen, but where is it going to happen? That's the only issue.
REID: Tragic, but true. Juliet Kayyem, we're seeing hundreds and hundreds of people being escorted out of this shopping center. Clearly, these people are not able to get in their cars.
What is the process of reunifying families who are there together? Or people reunifying with family members who can come and get them? What is that process amid all this chaos?
KAYYEM: Yes, so there is going to be a perimeter that has been selected, maybe a block away from the shopping mall. You just need to clear everyone out.
If there are deceased, that's a different process. Those family members are being contacted the worst phone call of their lives, in fact, but the people who are exiting, there will be a perimeter. Property does not matter. We don't care about your car, we don't know -- I mean, essentially, just get out of the way.
And then family reunification, either literally, stations will be set up and people have cell phones now, they can figure out what street. Parents will not be allowed into the perimeter, you cannot have people coming in to get their kids. This is a shopping mall on a Saturday, with an H&M and other places like that.
There are probably many, many kids and teenagers without parental supervision right now. The parents will not be allowed in, but there will be a meeting place between parents and kids. So that's basically what's happening right now.
And so the orderliness -- I'm looking at these pictures. Yes, they've vacated everyone from the parking lots. And you'll probably see a perimeter control at some stage relatively soon where everyone is.
Family unification is a key part of active shooter protocols. We've learned it the hard way. You just can't have family members despite how desperate they are coming to the site, and so law enforcement and emergency management have gotten better at trying to get families together.
This is yet again, another thing where we're good at it is not a compliment. It is we're good at it because it's practiced a lot. And so I think that you'll start to see family unification stations outside of this perimeter soon. Again, we don't know what we're looking at in terms of what the count might be, but I do want to reiterate the limited number of ambulances and no surge in -- you know, no mass casualty call here. We just know this from the fact we're not seeing ambulances means this would -- I'll be careful here -- would suggest that the worst fears we had when we were hearing about the number of bullets may be -- may not come to fruition, I will just put it that way.
Because if you had a major mass casualty event, you would just be seeing a lot more ambulances, which again, we've gotten good at.
[18:30:10]
REID: Too good at, unfortunately.
Tom Verni, we're talking about what we're seeing here, but obviously we can't see inside the mall. Charles Ramsey said earlier that they're probably looking at the security footage. So can you talk a little bit about what that's like, how important security surveillance footage is in this kind of response?
TOM VERNI, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE, LAW ENFORCEMENT CONSULTANT: Yes, reviewing any CCTV, closed caption television or digital security measures that they have in place, which I'm sure they - I'm assuming that they do. It looks like a fairly newer facility and even older facilities have been retrofitted to incorporate modern-day digital surveillance.
Largely - nowadays unfortunately, largely for situations like this, as well as in some cases where you have some of these random gangs that go in and loot stores. Like you can catch a bunch of kids or young people on camera and then if there's facial recognition software involved, it's easier to try to narrow down who we're looking for and the same goes here.
So hopefully if they have that type of technology to review these cameras and if it has the ability to have facial recognition, if this person is already known to law enforcement, then we're going to know who this person is right away.
If not, then it's going to be more of an old-school search as to putting a picture up on a wanted poster, if the person's got away and/or out to the public, to ask them for information as to who this person is. That will potentially happen anyway, even if this person has been identified. This way we can find out if there were any clues leading up to this incident, and particularly depending on what type of weapons were involved, where those weapons were obtained from, whether or not they were obtained legally or illegally.
And just to go back to a point that Chief Ramsey had made as well and a very valid one. While we focus many times on these mass shootings, the streets of the United States in these large cities such as New York City where I worked, and where Chief Ramsey's from as well, whether it'd be Baltimore or Chicago, Detroit, a lot of these major cities are - the streets are running red with blood of victims that have been victimized by gun violence and in many cases it's gang violence, right?
So we're talking about more isolated incidents, and maybe not on the scale where half a dozen or a dozen people are being shot and killed, but every day we're using - we're losing young people to gun violence. We're losing our friends and loved ones in shopping malls and in churches and in schools to gun violence. And while investigatory-wise, we are in better shape now to investigate these incidents largely because of the advent of cameras being put up everywhere. At the end of the day, that's great for investigators to help give them more clues and more leads. But at the end of the day - I mean, look at the people that are leaving this mall here with their kids. These little kids or anyone who's leaving this facility today, this is something they're going to remember for the rest of their lives.
And for young people, for little kids, that's going to be unbelievably traumatizing to them. So it's just - it's a shame, I feel bad for anyone that has been victimized here today down there in Texas. It's a shame that this has occurred. I'm hoping that the shooter or shooters have been neutralized and this - the situation, at least, has been halted from becoming an even worse situation than it potentially could have been.
But yes, I think video surveillance here is going to play a key part in this investigation like it does in a number of these investigations.
REID: And we're looking at these wider angles of this facility. This is a scene that you'd see in many places across the country. You have a massive outlet mall next to multiple smaller shopping centers. You have apartment buildings and a massive highway, multi-lane highway is right behind there.
Charles Ramsey, how difficult is it to swiftly secure a scene like this?
RAMSEY: It's time for resources to come in. It starts with a 911 call, but it takes time for all the different resources to get there. So you do the best you can to try to contain the area. But the bigger the area, the more challenging it is, obviously.
One thing I do want to mention is and I guess that's a helicopter that's flying around, I'm starting to see crime scene tape go up. And I noticed Fatburger, your one witness said that the individual was walking, the one who's firing was walking toward Fatburger and there is crime scene tape, I believe, in front of there.
[18:35:04]
My old eyes are accurate here. Again, that's not a real good sign. Something is definitely going on, but you're starting to see tape being put up in certain areas of the mall.
REID: Yes, I cannot see that tape, but it's also unclear if these are the newest pictures. But we have - yes, we do see Fatburger is right there on the corner. I do see that police tape that you just referenced. It starts on the sidewalk. People are walking past.
Camila Bernal, I want to go back to you. Details are slowly trickling in. Clearly, this is an active, fluid situation. But what do we know at this point?
BERNAL: We know this shooting happened at around 4 pm local time. And it happened at the Allen Premium Outlets in Allen, Texas. This is a suburb of Dallas, Texas. And authorities say they are responding to an active shooter. They are saying that this is an active investigation. There are people who are, of course, being let out of the mall and authorities saying if you're in the area, you should not be going towards the mall.
There are many witnesses who have talked about the fear of being at that mall this weekend and specifically just a couple of hours ago. Parents were trying to reunite with their children who maybe worked at the mall or who had been in the area.
There are witnesses who are also saying that they have seen the shooter. Again, we're waiting for confirmation from authorities to essentially tell us exactly what happened. But I do want you to listen to some of these witnesses who were at the mall and are describing seeing that shooter. Here are those witnesses.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Loud banging, like a couple of them and we thought something fell down outside of the store. So I went to go check it out and just kept happening. I saw them bouncing off the bricks outside.
BERNAL: And what store was this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Escros Sneakers.
BERNAL: Then what did you do after that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got behind him and we ran to the back of the store. And at that point we opened the door to the back and there was people back there and everyone started freaking out. It sounded like he had went into the store next door to ours, but we didn't know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was just confusing. I saw him on the camera. It was a skinny, masked up. It looked like he was pretending to be a police officer, which we --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERNAL: So again, we're waiting for authorities to specifically confirm all of these details. Unfortunately, they have been busy - extremely busy. So we have been reaching out to authorities trying to get that confirmation.
But we know there are multiple agencies who are on scene. The ATF is saying they have responded to an active shooter situation and everybody just trying to get this situation under control. But again, this is developing and we are waiting to hear from authorities to get confirmation of exactly what happened, whether it was just shots fired or how many people have died, if they have, because of this shooting.
Again, so far authorities have only confirmed that this was a shooting, but that is essentially pretty much it from the Allen Police Department saying that this is an active investigation. We do have a team on the ground and so we are waiting to hear a little more.
But as of now, very few details from authorities, Paula.
REID: Thank you for that update, Camila.
Juliette, you just heard those witnesses. I mean, that's a pretty contemporaneous recollection. Eyewitness testimony --
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes.
REID: -- not always perfect. But what do you make of what you just heard from them?
KAYYEM: Yes, so looking at this and then just based on what we were describing before, not a huge surge of ambulances, so there's not a mass casualty, what we would call an activation with emergency management. A orderly evacuation as we're seeing family unification occurring probably off camera or occurring off camera as we get kids and - as they get kids or families back together who may have been separated through the madness.
And then now eyewitness reports and particular focus on at least one site and eyewitness reports talking of a gunman who looked like he had a purpose potentially targeted. That's - after doing this for a while, that's how I would interpret at least what the totality of what we're hearing today and also what we're not hearing and what we're not seeing, as I said earlier.
[18:40:00]
You just - you look for your good news where you can in a country that is just having a mass casualty event more than once a day now. And the good news is an orderly evacuation there and people are not being told to run. So whatever happened is over.
And I just - I'm not seeing dozens of ambulances coming to the site and that's good news in our world. So that's - I think whatever the fatality rate is, it may be in a single individual place.
REID: And Chief Ramsey, we're seeing dozens - clearly, hundreds of people over the past 45 minutes or so flooding out of this complex. Do police want to talk to each and every one of them? Do they have to debrief with law enforcement or are they just going to be free to go once they do reunification?
RAMSEY: Well, I mean, they'll do their best to try to talk to as many as possible. I'm sure some people have already gone. With that many people, and you're talking about thousands of people, it looks like. Of course, they're looping the video footage, so we're seeing a lot of this over and over again. So it's kind of hard to get a real assessment.
But a mall that size on a Saturday, I mean, you probably - it's probably reasonable to think that you had thousands of people there. And so they will talk to as many as possible, certainly as those that were in that part of the mall where this shooting took place.
Someone who's on the far end really may not have had any meaningful information, but they'll do as best they can to try to isolate people and conduct some - get some statements, get some interviews going on. That's all part of ICS. You have specific people who was charged with that responsibility as well to interview people.
Again, it's challenging when you've got a situation like this and you've got a lot of people that by itself is a humongous task. An enormous law enforcement response we can see here.
Tom Verni, can you take anything away from what you're seeing right now? Large groups of law enforcement we see right here a moment ago we saw convening just outside the mall. Is there anything that you're taking away from what you're seeing and how law enforcement is moving right now?
VERNI: Well, I do like the fact that there is a very sizable law enforcement presence here, that's great. And in a place such as Texas, sometimes, if it's not around the major metropolitan areas, it's tough to get a lot of personnel to a place really quickly, right, because it's separated by dozens, if not hundreds of miles.
But here, it seems as if they do have a sizable contingent of officers, I would imagine, not only from the local police department, but on a county and/or state level, potentially, if I had to guess based on the amount of officers that they have here.
So that's good. I feel good about that. It seems as if the evacuation of the multiple parts of this facility have been done in a very orderly manner. Again, this is a kind of a tip of the hat to the training that these police departments now undergo every week, every month, every year.
So they know how to kind of set up, get large scale numbers of people to - from point A - which is in that facility where there's all kinds of chaos potentially happening, out to a safe distance from that location and to some sort of staging area where they could either interview and/or triage any potential injuries that may have occurred one way or another.
So it seems like, at least from this perspective, and based on the footage that we've seen, that the training here seems to have worked well. So hats off to them that have kind of coordinated all this. And then I hope they can get this - hopefully, this individual has been apprehended and/or disabled at this point. And they know who exactly they're looking for if they haven't.
And at least hopefully to have them isolated and contained, which is the next best thing. And then try to talk to them out of a location if they have to put them under arrest. So yes, it looks like they've done a really good job here under extremely difficult circumstances.
Again, I have to - I can't underscore how difficult a facility of this size is to try to get a crime scene such as this, under control with so many people in so many different ways in and out of this facility. So it's just - for me, I mean, I can't even think of a - the only incident that I can really kind of - which is a completely different incident for me was 9/11. [18:45:05]
On 9/11, you had the Trade Center and 10s of thousands of people fleeing that area and trying to get a - that crime scene under some sort of control, which was nearly impossible. So - but - this type of a mass shooting in this type of location or shooting in this type of location is just very, very difficult to try to - to get a handle on.
But it seems like they've done a pretty well - a pretty good job at this point.
REID: Yes. Tom, we just pulled out and got one of the first really wide angle views of this entire facility. It is enormous. Outlet malls often very large.
VERNI: Yes.
REID: But this is one of the biggest I've ever seen. What do you make of the fact that we haven't really seen any law enforcement officials running in the past 30 or so minutes? I mean, that would indicate to me that the situation inside is - has to be under control to some level.
Again, either the shooter has been intercepted and/or disabled or isolated and contained in an area where they're no longer a threat to the greater masses that are there. And now you have officers kind of clustered in different parts of this facility. I guess they're trying to reassess where they're going to have the - where are the most useful points to have manpower at this point.
Because as Chief Ramsey had mentioned, you now have to do a series of interviews with as many people as possible, particularly those who saw this incident occur from the get-go, right, and kind of be able to release those who had nothing to do with this incident.
You don't necessarily have to hold people for hours and hours and hours to do interviews if they had nothing to do with this incident. So - and if they were on the far end of the mall and they didn't see or hear anything, especially if they got - have children, particularly young children, yes, you don't want to have to hold people there for a long period of time when they're not going to provide key bits of information that we would need to get - to piece together the bits of the puzzle of this puzzle.
So we're going to want to get those people out and then get the people who have all the information that we need, kind of narrow it down to those few dozens of people and extract the information from them as best we can so we can start to piece together this mess that's been created by this individual today.
So we have Ed Lavandera live on the scene. He's been speaking to witnesses.
Ed, thank you for joining us. What are you learning there on the ground?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we just spoke with a woman who is an employee of a Fatburger restaurant inside the area. This is kind of the blocked off entryway into the outlet mall here in Allen. You can see cop cars there in the distance, but the woman we spoke with and we're still in the process of trying to vet the information that she gave us and corroborate that with authorities here, but she did show us a picture of someone dead on the ground with police standing around them.
Who exactly that person is, we do not know. That's what we're trying to figure out at this point. But she described an incredibly traumatic experience shooting that lasted for some time there - this particular restaurant.
She was saying it's full of teenagers who worked there. They all scurried to the back as the shooting erupted. They also had to get customers out of the way as quickly as possible. A very traumatic experience, she says, as all of this unfolded in front of the restaurant where she works at.
And as we've been showing you throughout the afternoon, this is a place that is extremely busy on a Saturday afternoon. This is an outlet mall that is filled with people here in the suburbs of Northern Dallas, and this is an area all around this outlet mall. People have been cleared out of that parking lot area and just kind of behind it, you can see people over here standing around. These are people that have been escorted out of that area and now waiting to figure out or reconnect with loved ones as authorities here continue to process this scene.
So very chaotic moments and terrifying moments for thousands of people who were here at this mall this afternoon. And right now, people are still trying to figure out exactly what unfolded, what exactly they witnessed.
Remember, in these kind of chaotic situations, sometimes what you think you're seeing isn't really what you're seeing. And obviously, in a place where there's a parking lot filled with cars, filled with people moving around, it is hard to make sense of a moment like this as it is unfolding.
[18:50:06]
And that's what so many people around here this afternoon are trying to do in these moments.
REID: Well, Ed, most of the photos that we've seen so far this afternoon have been aerial shots from the helicopters. It appears from those shots at this point to be an orderly process of evacuation. What does it feel like on the ground?
LAVANDERA: Yes, I think, right now there's kind of like this lull of people anticipating exactly what's going to be happening. We don't see any rush of movement with people around. I've been to - here, I'm on the southern end of this outlet mall from the vantage point where I came in just a little while ago, it is - you don't get a sense of chaotic running people scrambling to move in a terrified kind of way. It seems like things have settled down at least for this moment.
So a lot of people waiting to see what they're going to do and what they are going to be able to do. If you look back in here, this is the entrance into the outlet mall area. As you can look there in the distance, you can see just how many - hundreds of cars are in there.
These are people who've had to leave everything behind. The witness that we talked to who worked at that restaurant, the burger restaurant there inside the Outlet mall, said that people scrambled and got up and left as quickly as they could. Tables were left with purses and belongings and wallets and that sort of thing.
So there are a lot of people who had to race away from the scene and now they're trying to figure out how they can get their belongings or their cars and figure out what to do next. All of this transpiring as investigators are in there in the crime scene trying to piece together what has happened, how many victims there are. We're waiting to hear all of that. So that is the scene that is unfolding here this afternoon in Allen, Texas.
REID: Well, Ed, we appreciate you being there on the scene to give us this live reporting. How hard was it for you and your crew to get there? What are the roads like?
LAVANDERA: It was actually pretty smooth. It wasn't terrible. I mean, there are some roads that are blocked off. The areas around where - as I mentioned, we're on the southern end of this outlet mall. There's a parking lot with a hotel and other businesses, shopping centers. You're able to kind of get into this area. But there's definitely a perimeter that is set up around the back part of this outlet mall.
If I can paint a picture here a little bit better for you from our vantage point, all of the stores kind of face into a central parking lot area. So what we're seeing here are the backside of some of these outlet stores. And the entrance to these stores are just around on the other side of the buildings there.
So everything's kind of like in this central congregated area. That's where people move into to move through this open air outlet mall. And it's pretty - the distance is rather long. You can see probably a good thousand yards to the other side, the north side of this outlet mall in this parking lot.
So we're talking about a rather large area and then there's other shopping areas all around this particular outlet mall. So it's a large scene, difficult to process, mix that in with all of the cars and the vast amounts of people that were inside. You can imagine how chaotic it becomes just with that much activity going on in one place. REID: Absolutely. Now, one thing our law enforcement experts have noted is that they don't see a lot of ambulances and they don't see a lot of EMTs. We obviously can't see everything from where we are. But from where you are right now, have you heard ambulances? Are you seeing a lot of movement by an ambulance or EMTs?
LAVANDERA: Well, if viewers are familiar with the area, this outlet mall is right along what is known as Central Expressway, Highway 75, that runs from downtown Dallas all the way north into the suburbs.
On my way in, that's the highway that I was coming up to get to this scene. I did see one ambulance - I'm coming north - one ambulance was going south. That is all that I've seen. I would imagine, though, by the time I got here, those who needed the most immediate attention, medical attention, would have already been taken - rushed away from this scene in those moments.
But the police activity that I have seen has really been setting up the perimeter, blocking entrances into various parking lots so that more people don't come here as so many family members and witnesses are trying to reunite with their loved ones, which is obviously a great deal of concern for people who had friends or family that were here at this area when the shooting scene erupted this afternoon.
REID: Ed, thank you so much for that reporting on the ground.
I'm told Camila Bernal has new information from law enforcement sources.
Camila, what are you learning?
BERNAL: Hey, Paula. So a law enforcement source telling our colleague John Miller that authorities there are still looking for a possible shooter.
[18:55:06]
Now, according to these sources, what we know is that one of the shooters, at least one of the shooters, is dead. We do not know if that shooter was killed by police or if something else happened here. Now, in terms of that second possible shooter, what the source here is saying is that in many of these incidents, people see things, they do not know exactly what is going on, so it's unclear if there really is a second shooter, but that is what police are trying to figure out at the moment.
In terms of the one shooter who is dead, the source telling CNN that he was wearing tactical gear. Now, there are witnesses who are also describing seeing this shooter in what appears to be tactical gear. There are many witnesses in the area who are, of course, terrified after seeing the suspect or possibly the suspect and also just being impacted by all of this.
There is one witness who was working at PacSun and this was just his second day working at the mall. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We heard like a bunch of shots, but we thought it was firecrackers at first. And then a lot of people just started running straight to our door, trying to come in and everything. Our manager, he went out, and I guess when he was opening the door, like, people just kept running in, trying to run in, but he saw - I guess he saw the person. He was like with a vest and everything, had a gun. It looked like an AK. Like he looked like he was trained. So, like, I don't know if he, like, was a felon before, but he looked like he was a - he knew what he was - he wanted to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERNAL: Now, again, the source telling CNN that that shooter was wearing tactical gear. That shooter is dead at the moment. Authorities are looking for a possible second shooter that is, again, not confirmed at the moment. In terms of the shooter that is dead, authorities have identified his car, and we know, according to that source, who is speaking to my colleague John Miller, that there is a bomb squad that is going to figure out exactly what they can do with this car, if there's any evidence, if there's anything else that they can work here with.
But, again, there are multiple law enforcement agencies working on all of this. We're waiting to hear if there are any casualties, aside from the shooter, which we could confirm that one - at least that one shooter is dead at the moment.
But it is just a waiting game here, because we need confirmation from authorities, and that's exactly what we're waiting for. The Allen Police Department, the last thing they said was that this was an active investigation. The ATF saying they were responding to an active shooter. But, again, we're waiting to hear exactly what happened here. We know it happened at around 4 pm at the Allen Premium Outlets in Texas.
The governor of Texas also releasing a statement saying that all of the resources of Texas are essentially available to the city, to Allen, Texas. The governor, Greg Abbott, saying, "Our hearts are with the people of Allen, Texas, tonight during this unspeakable tragedy."
The governor is saying he's been in contact with the mayor and the director of the Department of Public Safety there in Texas to offer the resources of the state. Because, again, this is going to be a long investigation as we try to piece everything together and as we try to hear or to get an update from authorities. You're seeing that statement from Texas Governor Greg Abbott here, who's saying that the resources are swiftly being deployed, including DPS officers, the Texas Rangers, and investigative resources.
And he did not confirm anything in terms of this shooting. So, again, we're just waiting for the Allen Police Department to let us know exactly what is going on here, Paula.
REID: Camila Bernal, thank you for that new reporting. Chief Ramsey, you just heard Camila's report. Our colleague, John Miller, hearing that one shooter is dead. This individual is said to be wearing tactical gear. Another witness sharing a secondhand account, though, that this individual did have some sort of vest on. What is your reaction?
RAMSEY: Well, I mean, just from looking at the reaction of the police officers, I'm not surprised that the shooter is dead. You don't see the urgency there. As far as a second suspect, we are talking about Texas here, so I'm sure you had a few shoppers that were armed as well.
And so you might have an individual who heard the shots, a citizen, and with their firearm went toward the sound of the gunshots.
[19:00:04]
Someone sees them. They think maybe it's a second shooter.
