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Eight Dead, Seven Wounded As Gunman Shoots Shoppers At Texas Outlet Mall; Border Cities Brace For Influx of Migrants End Of Title 42 Nears; Biden Urges Congress To Pass Laws To Curb Gun Violence. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired May 07, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:24]

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: Hello again, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

And we go first to Texas where an all too familiar tragedy is once again playing out -- a massacre, this time at an outlet mall on Saturday leaving eight people dead, seven more injured in Allen, Texas. That's just north of Dallas. And a warning, some of what you're about to see is disturbing.

A witness dash cam capturing the horrific moments the gunman got out of his car and immediately began firing, ambushing unsuspecting people walking by and we're pausing this video before the shooting begins, but other witnesses were recording as the attack unfolded.

[VIDEO CLIP PLAYS]

WHITFIELD: A chaotic scene. Those were multiple rapid gunshots that you herd and you can see people running for their lives. A photo obtained by CNN appears to show the gunman after he was shot by a responding officer and you can see an AR-15 style rifle nearby.

He is clad in a black body armor and appears to have several extra magazines strapped to his chest.

CNN's Ed Lavandera is there in Allen Texas.

Ed, I understand that you have just learned new information about the gunman -- the suspected gunman -- and what are you learning?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Fredricka.

Well, a senior law enforcement source confirms to our Josh Campbell that the suspect in this case has been identified as 33-year-old, Mauricio Garcia, who lives in Dallas.

We were in the neighborhood where we are told by neighbors and this is an -- we were at an address that matches Garcia's parents and we were told by about a half dozen neighbors that we spoke with this morning there in that neighborhood that about an hour after the shooting took place here at the outlet mall in Allen, Texas that investigators which included FBI and Dallas Police officers were in that neighborhood speaking with the family of Mauricio Garcia, and that that lasted for several hours.

At one point they had the entire street blocked off in that area as many people were trying to figure out where this law enforcement and why this law enforcement presence was there.

Many of the neighbors had no idea that it was connected to this story unfolding, in this breaking news unfolding here at the Allen outlet mall.

So the identification of this suspect, 33-year-old Mauricio Garcia, we were also told by this source that he had been staying in some sort of transient housing.

"The Dallas Morning News" describes it as an extended stay hotel situation. So, we're trying to decipher and kind of read through all of those details as well and we will continue to do that throughout the day.

But this comes as we have been able to see this image of the body of the suspect there on the ground after Allen Police say he was shot and killed by one of their officers. And you can see in that image, the gunman dressed out in tactical bulletproof vest, other kind of tactical equipment.

What's interesting is that as neighbors in that area where Garcia's family live, we were told by one person that many people in the neighborhood had identified and noticed him from that picture based on the shoes that he was wearing in this very graphic image.

Here at the scene, we are told by city of Allen officials that despite all of this, a continuing and developing situation, that there will be no press briefings by officials here, that the Texas Department of Public Safety has now taken over this investigation -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, Ed Lavandera, thanks so much.

All right, last hour, I spoke with a witness about what it was like in those critical moments after the gunman opened fire and this is what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVEN SPAINHOUER, WITNESSED OUTLET MALL SHOOTING: I parked about 50 feet from the front door of H&M, and there was a guy on the phone and he was begging for help and he didn't speak a lot of English. I took the phone from him and told the operator, I started counting the bodies on the ground. I said, I've got one, two, three, five, six, seven bodies.

The first girl I went to, and this is pretty graphic, but she was in the bushes in a fetal position like she was praying and I didn't feel a pulse. I pulled her head back to see if she's okay and there was nothing left of her face or her head. It was gone.

I then saw a little boy about four or five, I'm assuming it was a boy, it might have been a girl I couldn't tell the sex, fallout from under one of the victims.

[15:05:10]

I went around the planter and grabbed him and took him away from all of the bodies. I asked him, do you speak English because he looked Asianic. He said he did. He just kept saying my mother is hurt over and over and over.

I told him everything was fine. That help was on the way. I checked in for no wounds. But he was caked with blood from head to toe. I just held on to him until the first Allen Police officer showed up and that officer said, is he okay? He said, take him to the hospital. I brought him out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Wow. An unbelievable account.

CNN's Camila Bernal joining us right now.

Camila, what more are we learning about the victims of this horrific tragedy and really, what witnesses are going through.

CAMILA BERNAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Fred.

I want to take a moment to go over the numbers because right now, we don't have names, we don't have ages. We really don't have very many details. But I do think it's important to keep that focus on the victims.

So at least eight people were killed and at least seven wounded. President Joe Biden in his statement saying that there were children among the dead. Again, we have not received confirmation from local officials there.

What they said was that nine people were transported to the hospital yesterday. And of those nine, they said that two were pronounced dead when they arrived at the hospital.

At the moment, the latest information that we have is that three people are still in critical condition and there are four people that are in stable or fair condition.

Again, we do not have ages. We do not have genders or names, but it is also important to point out that in addition to the people that were injured, in addition to the people that were killed, there are also a lot of victims who were there and maybe not physically injured, but went through a lot while they were at the mall yesterday.

People who saw the shooter, who saw the victims who are extremely impacted by this, who had to hide, who had to help people hide, who had to help people connect with their family members because people didn't know where they were or what was going on as there was so much commotion and so much fear.

I want you to listen to one of those witnesses and what she experienced.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TIFFANY GIPSON, FATBURGER EMPLOYEE: I heard a bunch of shooting, and then I went outside. Then I went next to the glass, and then that's when I saw the victim on the ground.

LAVANDERA: You saw a victim on the ground?

GIPSON: The one that got shot. I actually saw three people on the ground.

It was a lot of people and children. It's a bunch of teenagers at work at Fatburger, but there were families in there; little kids, small children, toddlers. And so my supervisor just escorted them to the back, it is a hallway. So it's full. I just squatted on the ground.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERNAL: And there will be a vigil today at 5:00 PM local time at a Baptist Church in the area. Again, this is a community now coming together to pray and to remember the victims even if we don't have names or ages yet. We are, of course, waiting for authorities to get those confirmed -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, Camila Bernal, thank you so much.

So for more now on all of this, from the investigative side, let's bring in CNN national security analyst and former assistant secretary for the Department of Homeland Security, Juliette Kayyem.

Juliette, welcome.

So it has been now almost 24 hours since the shooting happened and police have revealed very little, except that they do say there will be no presser today.

So what do you make of this? Is it a technique? Or strategy of refraining from sharing any information immediately?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes, it is definitely a technique and it is not surprising. We've seen this a couple times coming out of Texas now after these mass shootings.

It is unfortunate. I might have stronger words in the sense that, you know, public safety serves to protect the public and to inform the public. I thought yesterday when I was on air, the fact that they didn't even confirm what I knew just by looking at Twitter, what the gun was, or even the ages of those who were killed, was just -- it was sort of inexplicable.

And I think part of this is these delays then create a lot of background noise that I think can take away from the tragedy and the focus on of course, the victims, and then the focus on how they died, which is confirmed by our president, AR-15. I can't be sure, but I don't remember a president confirming the

weapon before a governor. I mean, normally, the White House would sit back and make sure that the locals and states were comfortable.

[15:10:11]

But it's undeniable at this stage that this is the weapon. Regardless of the motives, which are important, the means are the same again, and again and again.

WHITFIELD: So help remind people the circumstances in which law enforcement or the investigative arm might refrain from providing a lot of information right away.

You know, for one, it might be notifying next of kin.

KAYYEM: That's right.

WHITFIELD: What might be some of the other reasons?

KAYYEM: Well, it's definitely notifying next of kin. We're almost waiting 24 hours. It was -- you know, the next of kin have been notified, and we haven't heard that they haven't. Unfortunately, parents, depending on the ages, everyone was rushing to this shopping mall. They're kept away from it. There's focus on reunification, which is absolutely correct here. I am pointing to the pictures of the family unification areas. So you know, parents or family members would certainly know.

I think the ages are relevant, only because every life matters, but obviously, we hope to protect our children and teenagers who are just hanging out in a mall. The pictures we are showing are what look like high schoolers, the trauma that they will face.

And so I'm very respectful of law enforcement and their pacing. You had a dead suspect, they were at his house an hour later. You know, the investigation is going to go to motive, but it's not like, you know, we're searching for a suspect or that there is a manhunt or some, you know, secret intelligence, I mean, he was dead.

They knew who -- his car was there, they knew who he was an hour later. It's just becoming harder to find the law enforcement reason for why we can't get these disclosures.

WHITFIELD: Do we think this makes the community a lot more concerned? I mean, we're talking about public safety. This was a public place at an outlet shopping mall.

And I would think that more information would also help allay the fears or concerns of members of the public who might feel like more information would be helpful right now as opposed to not enough or no information.

KAYYEM: Yes. Right. It always is. I have written about, you know, the way that public safety or people in my field and talk to the American public, it only gives them two options, you know, tune out or freak out, right? Be afraid all the time, or, you know, some paternalistic thing.

Look, this is their community. These are the policy choices their elected officials have made about gun and gun access. This is their children and the schools their children will be returning to on Monday.

So disclosure is always helpful to the community so that we know what the facts are and the facts are the same that they were two days ago, and two days before that, and two days before that, which is we have a person with a motive, those may differ, and the means that is always the same and just killing lots and lots of people in this country.

WHITFIELD: Yes. Terribly sad.

All right, Juliette Kayyem, thanks so much. Good to see you.

KAYYEM: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: We are also following this breaking news out of Brownsville, Texas, where at least seven people are dead and several others injured following a car crash. It happened outside of a homeless shelter that has been housing migrants for several months. And police tells CNN that several immigrants are among the dead.

Let's get straight to CNN's Rosa Flores, who joins me live with more details. And Rosa, is it the case that it was a single car crash?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You're absolutely right, Fred and I just got off the phone with the director of the center and I've got to warn you, what I'm going to describe is graphic.

He says that about 8:30 this morning, there were between 20 and 25 migrants who had just had breakfast and they had walked outside across the street to wait for the bus, and he says that based on the surveillance video that he was able to see from his facility that there appeared to be at about 8:30, a 2007 Range Rover that was driving at a very high rate of speed, ran a red light and then crashed into the curb about 30 feet from where those migrants were sitting, waiting for that bus.

Now according to this director, he says that after that, it looks like the vehicle completely lost control. Now, he also says that from talking to some of the migrants who witnessed this, according to those migrants he says that the migrants believed that this was an intentional act.

So I asked the director based on what he was able to witness in this vehicle, was it an intentional act based on what he was able to see and he said no.

[15:15:04]

He reiterated that after that vehicle hit the curb, it went out of control because of the high rate of speed.

According to the Brownsville Police Department, seven people are dead; four to six others were transported to the hospital. They are not identifying the driver, but they do say that the driver was arrested and is being held on reckless driving charges and that those charges could be upgraded and that a toxicology report is being sought by the police department.

Now, I'm live in El Paso. As you all know, there is a migrant surge on the southern border right now with multiple cities that have been impacted. The city of El Paso is in a disaster declaration, the city of Brownsville is in a disaster declaration. Now the scene in Brownsville looks nothing like the scene here where I am.

Just look around, there are hundreds of migrants all around these streets. The city of El Paso overnight shut down this street. This is new.

Now, this happened before that crash out in Brownsville. But the reasons are the same. City officials stating that they closed this street because of concerns of public safety. And they also reiterated in that press release, Fred, that they released overnight is they were asking the residents of El Paso to be very careful as they are driving around the streets.

Because I mean, just look around. As you look, you'll see there's a lot of migrants on both sides of the street all around this area. And so that is the big concern, Fred, that because there are so many individuals out on city streets, it could be very dangerous and of course, a huge public health and public safety concern -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, Rosa Flores. Thank you so much in El Paso, Texas.

All right, tents in Central Park, college dorms, container homes, unused airplane hangars -- all said to be potential options for New York City to house migrants as they brace for the increase of migrants needing shelter.

New reporting on that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:21:08]

WHITFIELD: The COVID-era Title 42 immigration policy allowing for the quick expulsion of migrants is set to expire in just four days, and US cities along the southern border are bracing for a possible mass influx of migrants.

New York City is also preparing for a surge of migrants when the policy is lifted. Mayor Eric Adams has announced the city will ship willing migrants to other neighboring communities in New York State ahead of the expected increase.

And more than 50,000 asylum seekers have arrived in the city since last spring. Some of them have been bussed to New York by Republican governors and local officials from southern states.

CNN's Gloria Pazmino is joining us right now.

So what more are you learning about this new plan?

GLORIA PAZMINO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Fred.

You know, I've been speaking to sources in the Adams' administration over the past few days. And really, they tell me that they're looking at this as an all-hands on deck moment. They are planning for the fact that there will be an increase in the number of migrant arrivals here in New York City after Title 42 expires next week.

In fact, some of those numbers have been growing over the past few days. Sources on the Adams administration tells me they are expecting to see up to 800 migrant arrivals per day. And just last week, 500 arrived on a single day.

The problem with this, Fred, is that the city is running out of shelter space. New York City is unique unlike other cities that are also experiencing an influx of migrants, where the city of New York is legally required to provide shelter.

So the Adams administration is looking at a host of options, including leasing out college dorms, putting up tents in Central Park, and also using unused airplane hangars in John F. Kennedy Airport. Now, they are also looking to build tiny container homes.

All of these are just a range of possibilities that administration officials tell me they have been looking at because they expect these migrants to be arriving over the next few months.

Now the city for the past year has been saying that they need federal aid. The federal government has provided some funding in the last few months, but it goes nowhere near what the city has been requesting and as the numbers continue to grow, the mayor really under pressure here to provide those services to make sure that people are taken care of and that they have the shelter that the city is legally required to provide -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, Gloria Pazmino, thanks so much.

All right, the governor of Texas says he is visiting the city of Allen to provide "hope and healing" to that community. Is there anything more our elected officials can do to stop mass shootings?

We'll discuss with the top law enforcement officer in nearby Arizona, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: All right, welcome back.

The US is once again in mourning after another mass shooting. Eight lives taken in an instant after a gunman ambushed people shopping in an outlet mall in Allen, Texas on Saturday.

President Biden has ordered flags to fly at half-staff, but he's also demanding Congress to act to stop these senseless tragedies.

CNN's Jeremy Diamond is at the White House for us. Jeremy, what more is the President saying?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, President Biden is offering his prayers to the families of the victims of this deadly shooting. He is thanking first responders who acted as he says quickly and courageously to save lives. And he says that his administration is offering support to state and local law enforcement agencies investigating this latest deadly mass shooting.

But there is one line from the President's statement that I think probably rings very true to a lot of Americans today when he says that such an attack is too shocking to be so familiar.

And what we're also hearing from the President this morning. In this statement reacting to this latest mass shooting in the country is a call for action once again, and making clear who he believes is responsible for the inaction in Washington.

He says: "Too many families have empty chairs at their dinner tables. Republican members of Congress cannot continue to meet this epidemic with a shrug. Tweeted thoughts and prayers are not enough. Once again, I ask Congress to send me a bill banning assault weapons and high- capacity magazines, enacting universal background checks requiring safe storage, ending immunity for gun manufacturers. I will sign it immediately. We need nothing less to keep our streets safe."

[15:30:02]

Now the president says that he believes that there has been some progress since the enactment of the bipartisan Safer Communities Act, that bipartisan bill that passed last year, but he is also making clear as he has recently that he believes that he has reached the limit of his unilateral executive actions that he can possibly take to address this, noting that he has signed nearly two dozen executive actions on this subject since coming into office.

But he is making clear that the responsibility lies with Congress now as it relates to tackling this issue.

WHITFIELD: All right, Jeremy Diamond at the White House, thank you.

All right, joining me now is Kris Mayes. She is the Democratic attorney general for Arizona.

Attorney General, so good to see you.

I want to talk to you about a host of things because of the way news has unfolded in the last 24 hours. But first, I would love to get your reaction to this horrific mass shooting in Allen, Texas.

KRIS MAYES (D), ARIZONA ATTORNEY GENERAL: You know, Fredricka. It's just devastating to see this happen again, and again and again. And it's happened in my state of Arizona, and you know, it is time to act. You know, we have got to do more than express our thoughts and prayers.

In the state of Arizona, I have advocated for red flag laws. I've advocated for safe storage laws. We have to do more. And these senseless acts of violence are unacceptable and every law enforcement official, every attorney general, every governor, and certainly Congress has to be doing more.

WHITFIELD: So you're in agreement with what the president says is that, you know, Congress does need to step it up.

MAYES: Absolutely. Congress needs to step it up. And, you know, obviously, you know, states can take action as well. But ultimately, Congress needs to act and they need to act with the urgency that the situation requires.

WHITFIELD: I wonder, too, if we can switch gears to the issue of immigration.

I mean, this week, the COVID-era Title 42 immigration policy allowing for the quick expulsions of migrants will expire and border states like yours are bracing for an increase in migrants when the rule is lifted. Is Arizona prepared for this increase of migrants? If so, what are you preparing for?

MAYES: Well, I'll say I agree with Senator Kelly, when he says he is concerned about the level of preparedness that the Biden administration is at, at the border, I share those concerns.

On Monday, I will be contacting border county attorneys to offer any assistance that I can provide as the top prosecutor in the state of Arizona. And so, you know, I'm worried about the lack of a clear plan in place.

You know, like, I'm glad that the Biden administration has dedicated additional resources to the border. We're going to be watching this very, very carefully, though, in Arizona and we will be doing everything at a state level that we can.

But ultimately, what we need and what we have needed for years is comprehensive immigration reform. And, you know, we needed the Biden administration and others to have, I think, a stronger plan in place, but we will be as ready as we can from a state perspective.

WHITFIELD: So before any kind of comprehensive immigration reform can take place, what are the kinds of resources that you have at hand? Because we see in many of the Texas border cities, they're talking about, not even having space, nowhere to put people and, you know, creating tent cities, converting homeless shelters into shelters for migrants. are the resources that you have for what could be an increase?

MAYES: Well, I know that our governor is looking at those kinds of issues. From my standpoint, as attorney general, I think what I can do is assist our county attorneys, our sheriffs, our law enforcement along the border with taking some of the burden off their shoulders in terms of, you know, sort of day to day prosecution. I can also offer to help to prosecute human trafficking under a state

law that we just passed here, which we will do. That is something that I'm committed to doing, but certainly we need more resources along the border from the federal government to a deal with what is probably a surge and I am hearing from law enforcement all across the border already that we're already seeing this surge.

It has actually been going on for a couple of months now, so I would -- you know I think we've got to do a lot more.

[15:35:10]

WHITFIELD: All right, and now if I could ask you about the worsening groundwater crisis in your state, you recently vowed to crack down on foreign-owned farms that pump groundwater to grow crops to feed cattle overseas. So, can you tell us how big of a problem this is?

MAYES: It's a big problem, Fredricka. I mean, we have a situation that I think the vast majority of Arizonans find to be frankly, and there is no other way to say this, insane, in which our previous administration here in Arizona allowed a Saudi-owned corporation to grow alfalfa in Western Arizona, use Arizona's water for free to do it, and then send the alfalfa back to Saudi Arabia, so that they could feed their cows and their horses.

And, you know, we, just as a state that's dealing with an epic drought, cannot afford to do dumb things with water anymore. And I think the vast majority of Arizonans whether they're Republicans or Democrats or Independents, don't think that we should be doing that anymore.

So we put a stop to two new wells that had been scheduled. We found discrepancies in those wells and the permits for those wells, and there are additional wells that we need to shut down.

We have a broader problem here in Arizona and in the southwest in which we just have not been regulating groundwater supplies, we haven't been smart about water and it is time for us to get smart and to really expand groundwater regulation and also study, do hydrological studies of our of our aquifers, which just hasn't happened for the last 40 years.

WHITFIELD: All right, Arizona attorney general, Kris Mayes, glad you could be with us today. Thanks so much.

MAYES: Thank you. It's good to be with you.

WHITFIELD: Still ahead, the Los Angeles Lakers winning big last night against the Warriors to take a playoff series lead, but it is an achievement by LeBron James' son, Bronny that has his attention today, the big decision he just made, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:41:37] WHITFIELD: Okay, what a weekend for LeBron James. I mean, the Los

Angeles Lakers, they are now leading their playoff series against Steph Curry and the Golden State Warriors with a commanding 30-point win last night, and then post-game, there was this LeBron took a moment to congratulate his son in a big milestone for him and the James' family as a whole.

Joining me right now, CNN anchor and correspondent, Don Riddell. Okay, so this is a big moment for the whole family. But wow, what a nice moment.

DON RIDDELL, CNN WORLD SPORT HOST: It's cool, it is really exciting, and of course, it's a big deal for the LeBron James family.

So he says that nobody in his family has ever been to college. Of course, LeBron didn't because he was so good at basketball in high school, he went straight to the NBA. But his son, Bronny has now gone to the University of Southern California, which means that he's actually going to play on the same street as his dad, they're going to be playing just like a mile-and-a-half apart.

WHITFIELD: That's neat.

RIDDELL: I guess, if the mailman mixes up the fan mail ending up delivery the wrong address, but really, really cool and it takes Bronny and LeBron one step closer to LeBron's dream of playing together in the NBA.

WHITFIELD: Wow.

RIDDELL: A lot of people would love to work --

WHITFIELD: That would be something else.

RIDDELL: Yes, a lot of people would love to work with their kids and a lot of people do, but it is really hard for professional athletes because their careers are so short.

WHITFIELD: Right.

RIDDELL: But LeBron has this ridiculous longevity that he is still going and he said, he'll do whatever it takes to be able to play on the same team as Bronny.

WHITFIELD: Oh, that is so sweet, then to ultimately become competitors. But I mean, that's going to be a tough moment.

RIDDELL: Well, not if they are on the same team. So he's --

WHITFIELD: Oh, he is trying to make that happen.

RIDDELL: He doesn't want to compete against him. He wants to be on the same team as him.

WHITFIELD: Oh, okay. All right, well, fingers crossed for them.

All right, and then there's this huge race going on. Formula One race in Miami.

RIDDELL: Yes.

WHITFIELD: That is quite exciting.

RIDDELL: It is just starting now. So I mean, it's not that long ago, that Formula One, which has been a big global sport for years, just didn't get that much interest in the United States.

But now all of a sudden, it has just exploded.

WHITFIELD: Until Austin.

RIDDELL: Yes, so Austin was significant, but then the thing that really happened was this Netflix show "Drive to Survive," which has just kind of given the sport, a whole new set of eyeballs.

Three F1 races in this country this year. Austin established, Miami is in its second year, that's happening today. Las Vegas is going to be later this year.

Miami is just cool. It's around the Hard Rock stadium where the Dolphins play. It's kind of on their private, kind of like grounds around there.

WHITFIELD: That's going to be fun.

RIDDELL: So many celebrities, so many stars, great place to -- people watch Miami right now, and of course, a really interesting race. Red Bull as a team that have been dominating the season, Max Verstappen, the two-time champion, defending champion, we were expecting to run away with it again. But he had a really bad qualifying session yesterday, so he is starting in ninth.

His teammate from Mexico, Cheko Perez is on pole position. So let's see if Perez can hang on to it.

And in the build up to this race, we sent our man, Coy Wire down to Miami just to sort of do a bit of hobnobbing himself. He caught up with the seven-time champion, Lewis Hamilton, and they had a fascinating wide-ranging conversation, but one of the most interesting questions was, what did you do for work before you were doing this?

Have a listen.

WHITFIELD: Okay.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEWIS HAMILTON, SEVEN-TIME F1 CHAMPION: Cleaning cars probably. I was cleaning cars for like a dealer in town. I worked at a pub which I didn't -- as a --

COY WIRE, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: Pub?

HAMILTON: Yes, I didn't enjoy that. WIRE: Serving drinks?

HAMILTON: Yes. I was useless at it, but I didn't know any of the drinks they were asking for, I didn't enjoy it. I worked at a clothing store and I worked at a sneaker store.

[15:45:06]

I tried a bunch of different things, but I was always -- when I was at work, all I was thinking of is how I'm going to win the next race.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Wow.

RIDDELL: Yes, all he ever wanted to be was a racing driver. So he was doing that on the side while he was kind of making his way, but how cool is that?

WHITFIELD: Very cool and I mean, what a gigantic star now.

RIDDELL: Absolutely.

WHITFIELD: He dominates.

RIDDELL: Yes, he is now having the best season with Mercedes, but he is still ambitious. He's still hungry. He wants to get to eight world titles which nobody's ever done before, and he still loves it.

WHITFIELD: He's a great inspiration.

RIDDELL: Yes, great role model.

WHITFIELD: All right, Don Riddell, thanks so much.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:50:05]

WHITFIELD: All right, it is deadline day for Donald Trump. He has until 5:00 PM today to change his mind about waiving his right to testify in the battery and defamation trial brought on by writer E. Jean Carroll.

Carroll is claiming that Trump raped her in the mid-1990s at a department store in New York and then defamed her over the claims.

Trump's defense has largely focused on why she did not file a report at the time or scream during the alleged attack.

I want to talk about this more with Jessica Bennett, contributing editor in "The New York Times" opinion section, and she also teaches journalism at the New York University and is the author of "Feminist Fight Club." Jessica, great to see you. So, one of the reasons women often don't

come forward, you know, as Carroll noted, is because they feel belittled by the questions. It's like being, you know, victimized again, and you wrote, in an opinion piece for "The Times" that -- I'm quoting now: "This isn't to say that those making rape allegations shouldn't answer questions, but we don't ask victims of other violent crimes, if they screamed out to the contrary, not screaming is considered a way to not further provoke. Why then when it comes to victims of sexual violence are those tropes so baked in?"

So as you ask those kind of rhetorical questions, have you come any closer to getting some of those answers?

JESSICA BENNETT, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" OPINION SECTION: Right. Well, you know, it's not just that we don't ask victims of other violent crimes these questions, it is that there's actually ample data to show that many people in a victim situation explicitly do not scream.

You know, there is psychological evidence to show that people may freeze. All sorts of crazy things can go through person's mind when they feel that they're in danger. So, we're kind of reiterating these same old questions that actually do have answers. There are plenty of reasons why women wouldn't scream, and also why she wouldn't report to police.

WHITFIELD: And, you know, there are other things too, that -- or factors, I mean, they were in a department store. You know, she has spoken loosely, you know, about not trying to get any more attention. She did know him, had an interaction with, also felt like probably nobody would believe it.

So all of those things, you know, are magnified then just as they are in cases from alleged victims we hear today. And then during this, you know, taped deposition in October, Trump had this to say about Carroll's allegation against him. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: She is accusing me of rape, a woman that I have no idea who she is, it came out of the blue. She is accusing me of rape, of raping her. The worst thing you can do the worst charge --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: How do you suppose this might be sitting with jurors? Because that's, you know, what is critically important, you know, how they're interpreting the deposition, even though there is an opportunity for him to testify, you know, in person, of course, we know this deadline coming up five o'clock, he and his team have deferred to that option.

BENNETT: It seems unlikely that he's going to testify, and I don't think that would help him anyway. You know, jurors are kind of inscrutable. You're sitting there in the courtroom, wondering what they're thinking.

But in addition to the clip you just played, where he's saying rape is the worst crime, which of course, it is, in many ways. There are other clips in which he's saying things like, well, yes, I said that thing on the "Access Hollywood" tape and that is what famous people get to do. Like, I'm just stating the truth, whether unfortunately, or fortunately. So you know, there's more to it.

I think that jurors are hopefully going to see this case in a framework from what we have learned from the #MeToo Movement over the past few years, and have hopefully a more complex understanding of what we talk about when we talk about victims.

WHITFIELD: I mean, so much has changed about how people are even openly talking about this, you know, say versus the 1990s, so I wonder what that kind of evolution do you feel like the jurors of today, who are listening to this evidence, testimony, taped depositions, et cetera are applying, I guess, a better knowledge of things today versus what the culture may have been in the 90s?

BENNETT: Well, certainly, I think we are all culturally more aware of what it means to suffer sexual violence or sexual assault or even sexual harassment. However, those things have not necessarily trickled down into the court of law. So, that's one of the interesting things, too.

You know, we may know on a conscious level that a woman is in fact not unlikely to not scream in the face of an attack, but the way the law is written in a rape trial, a woman still has to show that she tried to push back verbally in some way.

[15:55:12]

And so oftentimes, the questioning will come on the lines of well, did she scream? Did she shout? No.

I think there's also a real generational element to this case. You know, she -- E. Jean Carroll is of -- she keeps referring to it as the silent generation. She was a journalist in a time when there weren't very many women journalists, and you learned that that kind of banter and almost flirtation went on and if something bad happened, you brushed it off. And as one of her friends said during court, you put your lipstick back on, and you just move forward.

And I think that now the younger generation is doing the opposite. They're speaking up immediately.

WHITFIELD: All right, Jessica Bennett, really fascinating read and fascinating content that you bring us today. Appreciate it.

BENNETT: Thanks for having me.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

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(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: The new CNN original series, "The 2010s" premieres tonight at nine right here on CNN.

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