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Eight Dead, Seven Wounded As Gunman Shoots Shoppers At Texas Outlet Mall; Several Immigrants Among Seven Killed In Crash Near Texas Shelter; Border Cities Brace For Influx Of Migrants As End Of Title 42 Nears; Interview With Rep. Adriano Espaillat (D-NY); America Grapples With Deadly Weekend Of Gun Violence; Retailer Leaving San Francisco; Baby Powder Law Suit. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired May 07, 2023 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:01:01]

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

And we begin in Texas where a weekend shopping trip turned to pure carnage. Eight people are dead, seven more wounded after a gunman opened fire into a crowd at an outlet mall in Allen, Texas, that's just north of Dallas. And a warning some of what you're about to see is disturbing. A witness dash cam capturing the moment the gunman got out of his car and then immediately began firing, ambushing unsuspecting people walking by.

We're pausing this video before the shooting actually begins, but other witnesses were recording as the attack unfolded.

You hear multiple rapid gunshots. You see people running for their lives, and a photo obtained by CNN appears to show the gunman after he was shot by a responding officer. And you can see an AR-15 style rifle nearby. He is clad in black body armor and appears to have several extra magazines strapped to his chest.

CNN's Ed Lavandera is on the scene in Allen, Texas.

Ed, I understand you are learning new details about the gunman, even though law enforcement has said they are not going to have a press conference today?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's, you know, kind of a stunning admission here from city officials and we've reached out to the Texas Department of Public Safety trying to get some clarity as to when there might be some sort of briefing regarding this shooting, but authorities did not take any questions yesterday and we continue to try to get official answers from authorities here in Allen, Texas.

We'll continue to do that. But let me get to the latest on what we have. A law enforcement source -- a senior law enforcement source has confirmed to CNN that the gunman and the suspect in this case is 33- year-old Mauricio Garcia of Dallas. We've also been told by this law enforcement source that the indication is that perhaps the motivation for this attack was right-wing extremism.

And according to the information that we're now able to report is that the suspect was found with insignia on his clothing that read RWDS, which authorities believe may stand for "right-wing death squad." So that is some of the preliminary information we're getting as to some sort of possible motivation in all of this.

Here as investigators at the scene of the outlet mall continue working the crime scene, there are hundreds of people still trying to come back here. The area has been and remains cordoned off. There are hundreds of cars in that parking lot that people are trying to get access to. And that's happening here at the scene.

We were in the neighborhood where the suspect, Mauricio Garcia, we were told had lived with his parents up until a few months ago, according to various neighbors, about a half dozen or so that we spoke with this morning. And one neighbor described seeing him. Not many neighbors spoke very often from what we could do with this family, but one neighbor we spoke with says that he would often see him coming from work and then walking around the neighborhood. And this is how he was described to us by this neighbor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOISES CARREON, NEIGHBOR TO ALLEN, TEXAS SHOOTING SUSPECT: I never really saw anything that seemed real suspicious or out of, you know, out of whack with the guy. I mean, he would get in, he would park his car, and then just walk in like anybody else. Nothing, you know, nothing of a red flag. I think he was a real loner. A lot of times he would walk up and down the block and always with those Converse. You know, he likes those, I guess also his favorite, those Converse. So I think, you know, he just likes to walk coming down the block with his little hoodie on and just, you know, just didn't really say anything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAVANDERA: And Fredricka, we were also told by those neighbors that we spoke with this morning that it was about an hour after the shooting took place that FBI investigators, as well as Dallas Police, showed up in the neighborhood and started speaking with the family.

[16:05:06]

They'd actually blocked off that block for some time yesterday afternoon -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Wow. Yes. It just continues to be so puzzling.

All right. Ed Lavandera, thanks so much. Come back to us when you get more information.

All right. And earlier today, I spoke with a true hero in this tragedy. Steven Spainhouer is a former police officer and Army veteran who rushed to the scene and was one of the first to render aid to victims. He explains in graphic detail what it was like in those first chaotic moments. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVEN SPAINHOUER, WITNESSED OUTLET MALL SHOOTING: I parked about 50 feet from the front door of H&M and it was a guy on the phone and he was begging for help and he didn't speak a lot of English. I took the phone from him and told the operator, I started counting the bodies on the ground. I said I've got one, two, three, five, six, seven bodies. The first girl I went to, and this is pretty graphic, but she was in the bushes in a fetal position like she was praying. And I didn't feel a pulse. I pulled her head back to see if she's OK and there was nothing left of her face or her head. It was gone.

I then saw a little boy about 4 or 5, I'm assuming it was a boy, it might have been a girl, I couldn't tell the sex, fall out from under one of the victims. I went around the planter and grabbed him and took him away from all the bodies. I asked him, do you speak English, because looked Hispanic (PH), he said he did. He just kept saying my mother's hurt over and over and over. I told him everything was fine, that help was on the way. I checked him for more wounds. But he was caked with blood from head to toe. I just held him on to him until the first Allen police officer showed up, and that officer said, is he OK? I said take him to the hospital, I don't know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: And police say there are still at least three victims in critical condition today while another is listed in fair condition. And we're also following breaking news out of Brownsville, Texas, where at least seven people are dead and several others injured after a car plowed into a group of people. And it happened outside a homeless shelter that has been housing migrants for several months. Police tell CNN that several immigrants are among the dead, though it is unclear how many.

Let's get straight to CNN's Rosa Flores who is joining me with more details.

Rosa, what are you learning?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. I just got off the phone with police, Fred. And according to police in Brownsville, Texas, they say that the driver of that vehicle is not cooperating with police. He is giving police various names and so police are having to fingerprint him to get his identifying details.

Now police also say that they have a blood sample of this driver and that they're asking for toxicology tests. It's unclear how long those toxicology tests will take, but police say that seven people are dead and that at least 10 individuals are injured. Now police are still going to hospitals in the area to figure out if there are more individuals injured. These are just the latest details coming in.

Now about what happened, I talked to the director of that shelter and he says that at about 8:30 this morning, he says that his surveillance video -- his surveillance system at the center captured the incident. He says that a 2007 Range Rover ran a red light at a very high speed and then hit a curb about 30 feet from where 20 to 25 migrants were sitting on a curb waiting for a bus.

This migrant shelter director says that they were all Venezuelan, that they had arrived about two or three days ago, and they were simply waiting for a bus. Now, according to this director, he says that witnesses, the migrants who witnessed this, say that this was an intentional act.

Now I asked this director to tell me if based on what he saw in that video, Fred, if from witnessing the video, if he thought that it was an intentional act. And to be clear here the director said no. He said that what is seen in this very graphic video is this vehicle again running a red light at a very high rate of speed hitting a curb and then hitting the migrants -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: Wow. Very tragic. So sad. All right, Rosa Flores, thanks so much.

All right. Still ahead, U.S. cities, including New York, are bracing for an influx of migrants once Title 42 lifts in four days. So how are federal and local officials preparing? Congressman Adriana Espaillat of New York joining me live next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:13:58]

WHITFIELD: All right. Welcome back. With the COVID era Title 42 immigration policy allowing for quick expulsions of migrants set to expire in just four days, U.S. cities all along the southern border are bracing for a possible massive influx of migrants. Last week the Biden administration announced it was sending 1500 U.S. active duty troops to the U.S.-Mexico border to help prepare for the possible surge.

CNN's Gustavo Valdes is in Ciudad Juarez on the Mexico side of the border.

Gustavo, what is the situation now?

GUSTAVO VALDES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Fredricka, we are a couple of blocks away from one of four bridges that connect Juarez with El Paso, and we're seeing this encampment is just an urban setting where people are doing whatever they can to spend the night. Most of these people are telling me they are from Venezuela. They are trying to see when is the best moment to cross. They are not 100 percent sure that when Title 42 expires is the best time because they're concerned.

[16:15:01]

And right now they have been watching videos coming out of Brownsville, what happened there, and that is what is worrying them.

She says she's been crying. She's worried that there's nobody to protect them there. She says that all these people that made the long journey from South America, now they're not protected.

Are you going to cross anyway?

She says that she would like to cross legally. She already crossed illegally once. She was deported and told to filed electronically an appointment. That's what the U.S. government wants these migrants to do. But she says she's been waiting and the rumor around here is that many people with that appointment are being sent back to Mexico, perhaps because they're crossing ahead of their appointment, but that is the big question for a lot of the migrants.

Local authorities estimate that there might be between 20,000 and 30,000 people waiting to cross as soon as Title 42 expires and they keep seeing buses and people arriving by train to this part of the border -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Well, that's a significant number, 20,000 to 30,000, and I mean, a range of concerns, as you just -- you were able to retrieve from the woman there about the backlog and then if they even get an opportunity to cross the border safely, they're worried about their safety on the other side as a result of what we've just learned took place in Brownsville, Texas.

All right. Gustavo Valdes, thank you so much.

All right. Let's talk more about all of this with Congressman Adriano Espaillat. He is a Democrat from New York who came to this country as a child with his family as undocumented immigrants.

Congressman, so good to see you.

REP. ADRIANO ESPAILLAT (D-NY): Thank you, Fredricka. Thank you for having me.

WHITFIELD: So you feel like you can relate to the sentiment of the woman that Gustavo just talked to, who has a variety of concerns with the end of Title 42. The backlog, people who have appointments trying to cross early so that they don't miss those appointments. I mean, just a variety of things. So is it your feeling the Biden administration is prepared to deal with all of this?

ESPAILLAT: Well, Fredricka, we spoke, the Congressional Hispanic Caucus spoke to Secretary Mayorkas and we gave a series of recommendations, some of which have been implemented. We certainly didn't want the family detention model that was perpetrated during the Trump administration. All the research shows that children are harmed, perhaps some of them are for life, they're traumatized held under these adverse conditions. So we're not going back to that.

And of course, there is an effort to bring people here legally through the app. And of course there is 30,000 slots for people from Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua and Venezuela that was started back in January. That will continue. Also, there is a new sort like family reunification effort that will apply to folks from El Salvador, Colombia and Guatemala. And it's a program that would allow citizens to apply from these countries to apply to have their family members from those countries petition. And it's a temporary parole and work authorization program. So those

are both good. But, you know, is it enough? I mean, obviously there's an end to the transit ban and so that will force folks to seek asylum in one of those countries and that's a problem. Those countries do not have the infrastructure to process the asylum. In some cases like in the Nicaragua case, if you're coming from Cuba, you're not going to seek asylum from Nicaragua when you know they're friendly governments. They may deport you back there. And so the traditional asylum process is somewhat compromised when you don't allow a lane for those people to apply and make their claim.

WHITFIELD: So there's the, you know, federal response and then there are responses and ideas coming from municipalities. I mean, your city being one of them. New York City Mayor Adams, you know, who is announcing a plan to send willing migrants to locations outside the city ahead of an expected surge maybe to neighboring communities.

[16:20:05]

And if we're talking about, you know, something like 50,000 asylum seekers that have already arrived in the city since last spring according to, you know, city officials, the idea of now transporting the willing migrants to neighboring communities, is that going to sit well? Is that a remedy, an answer to what is expected to be an influx of people?

ESPAILLAT: Well, certainly I think that the entire country should do their job on this. It shouldn't be just on the shoulders of one particular community or one city. You know, I'm leading a letter to FEMA this week because they're not reimbursing enough funding to New York City on time. And so it's a stress on the budget of New York City. And of course that creates issues. But certainly we are a country of immigrants.

These are folks that are fleeing what I call a crisis of democracy in the Americas. And it's not just a left-wing or right-wing crisis. In fact it applies to countries on both ends. And so we as a leader of this hemisphere, the Western hemisphere, should really address this, not just in those countries but (INAUDIBLE) folks who are looking to seek asylum right here.

WHITFIELD: Well, that's been a similar argument, you know, being made by Republican governors who admit to having bused or being participants in busing migrants from their border communities, whether it were in Florida or even Texas, to other cities so that other cities and jurisdictions could bear the burden, could see what it is they're going through. So doesn't this end up fitting well into their argument?

ESPAILLAT: I think that's a different attempt for those governors who are trying to score political points and send all the migrants to, let's say, New York City or another city or Washington, D.C. Those governors are just trying to score some cheap political points and some might take advantage of this situation that folks are facing. They have to cross El Darian in Panama, the Panama jungle, through really adverse conditions to get here. They are seeking asylum and they get bused so that they could maybe

score and get some political votes. That's not what we're trying to do at all. I don't think that's what the mayor of New York City is trying to do. He's trying to say if you have a family member somewhere else and you'd rather be with them, I'll facilitate that. If you feel that you'll be able to do better somewhere else, I'll facilitate that.

But so far New York City has been responsible in taking a large number of migrants that have come in. And we're fighting for the funding to come from Washington.

WHITFIELD: All right. We'll leave it there. Thank you so much, Congressman Adriano Espaillat.

ESPAILLAT: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: I appreciate it.

All right. Coming up, it was not just Texas. There were several others mass shootings this weekend in the U.S. What else needs to be done to stop gun violence? The president of a nonprofit which advocates for laws to prevent gun violence will join me live next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:27:36]

WHITFIELD: All right. Once again America is dealing with a weekend of bloody violence. Mass shootings leading to chaos from coast to coast. Along with a massacre in Texas that left eight dead and seven injured at an outlet mall, there were at least seven other mass shootings.

This weekend in Chico, California, six people were shot at a house party on Saturday. One of them a 17-year-old girl who was killed. In Ocean Springs, Mississippi, gunfire erupted at a restaurant Friday night leaving a 19-year-old man dead and six more injured. And in Columbus, Ohio, police are investigating at least three separate shootings that left at least two people dead. The police chief condemning what she calls easy access to deadly weapons.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF ELAINE BRYANT, COLUMBUS POLICE: It's tragic that these incidents occurred, and one of the things that we're really concerned about is how many guns are so easily accessible and how many people are walking around with guns. As you know, the gun laws changed back in June of last year. We were concerned.

Obviously as police we want to be able to make sure that we make people as safe as possible, but when you have a situation where anyone can have a gun, with no checks and balances, they don't have to have any type of training, they don't have to have any CCWs, they don't have to have anything to be able to get guns, what we're seeing is the guns are readily available.

(END VIDEO CLIP) WHITFIELD: All told there have been 200 mass shootings across America in the first 127 days of this year.

I'm joined now by Kris Brown. She is the president of the nonprofit organization Brady United, which advocates for laws to prevent gun violence.

Kris, so good to see you.

KRIS BROWN, PRESIDENT, BRADYUNITED.ORG: Good to see you.

WHITFIELD: So if I could first get your reaction to all of that, I mean, at least eight mass shootings this weekend alone?

BROWN: You know, I -- with horror. It is so awful to think that Americans across this country, I know I've been talking to them especially over the last three or four months, really have gotten to the point where they don't know where they're safe. And of course your reporting demonstrates why. We have 200 mass shootings in this country already at this point during the year. We've had a week of mass shootings.

[16:30:02]

Someone who is a neighbor who complains about the sound of firearms and gets gunned down, along with her children. You go into a doctor's office, you're not safe. You go to an open-air mall, you're not safe. And the list goes on and on and on.

My frustration in that hearing the law enforcement officer and her comments is we have a lot of people in our country, too, including law enforcement on the front lines of this epidemic. But the solutions are very straight forward.

And Texas, in particular, has gone the wrong direction on so many laws that could save the lives of Texans, if they were enacted.

WHITFIELD: And then, you know, this massacre in Allen, Texas, I mean, eight people dead. We know at least one of the seven injured was a five-year-old child. And police say the gunman used an A.R., you know, 15-style rifle.

Congressman Keith Self, who represents Allen, spoke to CNN last night and this is what he had to say in the hours after the attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People argue that prayers aren't cutting it. Prayers are not preventing the next mass shooting. What is your response to that criticism?

REP. KEITH SELF (R), TEXAS: Well, those are people that don't believe in an almighty god, who can -- who has -- who is absolutely in control of our lives. I'm a Christian. I believe that he is.

We have people, though, with mental health that we're not taking care of. Since this nation made the decision that we were going to close the mental health institutions, many of these situations are based on that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: And then, you also mentioned, you know, there was the Atlanta shooting in the doctor's office waiting room. And Senator Raphael Warnok, I mean, that is his district. And he had to say about what he feels is sort of a complacency, a lack of action. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK (D), GEORGIA: But the truth is none of us is safe. As a pastor, I'm praying for those who are affected by this tragedy. But I hasten to say that thoughts and prayers are not enough.

And, in fact -- in fact, it is a contradiction to say that you are thinking and praying and then do nothing. It is to make a mockery of prayer. It is to trivialize faith.

We pray not only with our lips, we pray with our legs. We pray by taking action. And, still, there are those who want to convince us that this -- that this is the cost of freedom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: So, in your view, I mean, what is going on here? You know, for a while, the mention of gun reform or control would spark, you know, big debates about, you know, protecting or infringing on the Second Amendment.

And, now, there is this kind of blend, right, of avoidance, placing blame on mental illness and what some are referring to as a sort of Christian nationalism.

BROWN: Well, look, I can't imagine trying to do a better job than Senator Warnock at pushing back on, frankly, the ridiculous statements made by the prior speaker. The representative from Texas. Because, as someone who's raised catholic, and I think every person of faith understands this, it's not that we elect our officials not to take action. Their job is actually to pass laws.

And if it's not what they're going to do, we should boot them out of office. The fact of the matter is that the laws we've put in place, including the Brady Law, which has now stopped more than 4 million sales of guns, actually work to save lives.

That's what we need to focus on in this country. And understand that states like California per capita have far fewer gun deaths and injuries. Why is that? Because they have comprehensive laws.

And that's what the American people are desperate, in poll after poll after poll, to see happen. Their lawmakers taking action. The only house that's divided in this are certain legislators -- legislative houses, not people's houses. Across this country, Republican or Democrat, gun owner or not gun owner, you want these solutions in record number, 80, 85, 90 percent. And the people who are saying now, it's all in god's hands, let's look at how much they're getting from the gun industry and wondering who's actually dictating those words?

[16:35:02]

WHITFIELD: All right. Chris Brown, President of the nonprofit organization, BradyUnited, thanks so much.

BROWN: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: President Biden is, again, urging Congress to act on gun violence, after the latest mass shooting in Allen, Texas. Eight people were killed and seven others injured Saturday, after a gunman went on a deadly shooting spree at an outlet mall.

I'm joined now by CNN White House Correspondent Jeremy Diamond and CNN's Alayna Treene on Capitol Hill. So, Jeremy, you first.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, listen, Fred, we are watching the all too familiar rituals playing out in the wake of the latest deadly mass shooting in this country. President Biden, in a statement today after ordering the lowering of the flags to half staff, now offering his prayers to the victims and their families.

He is thanking first responders and he is, once again, calling for action.

[16:40:01]

DIAMOND: Calling for action on what he views as common-sense measures, as it relates to gun reform. And he says -- and he is also pointing out who he believes is responsible for the inaction in Congress. Saying, quote, "Too many families have empty chairs at their dinner tables. Republican members of Congress cannot continue to meet this issue epidemic with a shrug. Tweeted thoughts and prayers are not enough. Once again, I ask Congress to send me a bill banning assault weapons and high-capacity magazines, enacting universal background checks, requiring safe storage, ending immunity for gun manufacturers. I will sign it immediately. We need nothing less to keep our streets safe."

Now, President Biden has, of course, in the past, issued various executive actions to try and tackle this problem of gun violence in America. But he has now said, more recently in the last couple of months, that he believes he has reached the limits. The limits of his unilateral authorities and his executive actions. And so, now, he is, once again, calling on Congress instead to act.

WHITFIELD: All right, Jeremy, thanks. And, Alayna Treene, so, how close is Congress on, you know, taking up legislation to tackle gun violence?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Well, not very close, Fred. Despite the President's urging, it's unlikely we'll see Congress pass any sort of gun reforms in the near future. In March, after the mass shootings in Kentucky and Tennessee, a lot of lawmakers on both sides of the aisle conceded that, really, they don't have a lot of -- given the divisions in Congress, they don't have a lot of room to take any sort of federal action on this.

I know that I spoke with a lot of lawmakers then who said that the gun safety bill that they passed last year, the Bipartisan Gun Safety Bill, was likely the furthest they'll be able to go on this issue. But many lawmakers recognize that it didn't do enough to address the epidemic of shootings in this country.

And, really, I mean, we heard from Senator Dick Durbin say as much today. Where he -- rather than calling on Congressional action, he called on Americans to act and make this a priority in the next election. Let's listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: There is something more that America can do and it's called an election. And if people across America are fed up with these mass shootings and killings and the terrible things that are happening even to our children as a result of it, they're going to vote accordingly.

We need to have that kind of a revolution in thinking across America, that this is unacceptable. This was not dictated by the Constitution. It's a point of view and a position, a political position, which makes no sense when it comes to the safety of America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: And, Fred, Senator Durbin's position there is really similar to what other Democrats have told me. They feel like their hands are tied. And, really, it will take another election and a new Congress to give Democrats the type of numbers that they think they need in order to pass these kind of reforms.

WHITFIELD: All right. Alayna Treene, Jeremy Diamond, thanks to both of you. Appreciate it.

All right, still ahead, another major retailer is leaving downtown San Francisco. We'll explain next.

[16:43:04]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: All right, Nordstrom has become the latest retailer to leave downtown San Francisco. The company cites the changing dynamics of the area, which has not recovered since the pandemic, and has also been a spotlight for crime. The bay area has experienced a wave of high-profile shoplifting incidents, many of which have gone viral on social media. Police data showing the city has experienced a 23 percent jump in property crime between 2020 and the end of last year, but it remains below pre- pandemic levels in 2017.

Joining me right now is Kevin Trong. He has been reporting on this story for the "San Francisco Standard" for some time now. And you've been tracking the retailers who have left downtown since 2020. And the list is long. I mean, here's just a little bit that I know. We're talking about Nordstrom now, Whole Foods, Saks on Fifth, Marshals, H & M. I mean, here's the graphic. These are significant stores. I mean, big retailers. So, what is going on? Is it really bad shoplifting or is there something else?

KEVIN TRUONG, STAFF WRITER, "THE SAN FRANCISCO STANDARD" (via Webex): So, I think it's an intersection of two economic trends that we've, sort of, seen ramp up during the pandemic. One is the decline of big- box retail, a lot of the stores that you just mentioned, with the rise of e-commerce. Somewhat ironically enabled by many of the companies that are in San Francisco or at least fostered there. And that's going alongside this persistence of remote work which has really hit a lot of urban areas hard, particularly San Francisco.

So, if you have that decline in revenue, because of e-commerce along with the decline of foot traffic, decline of customers, people walking in the door, you can kind of see the results on the screen right there.

WHITFIELD: Wow. I mean, it sounds really miserable, especially for those people who do live downtown, who probably love the convenience of walking to any number of these retailers. But now are going to have -- because most of these are in this same kind of area, this Union Square area, right? So, they're now going to have, like. this big retail graveyard. That can't be good.

TRUONG: Yes. And I think, you know, as you, kind of, walk in that area, what was previously, and I think still is, in a lot of cases, the city's premiere shopping district, there's more and more of these vacant buildings out there. More and more of these for lease signs. And the city is trying to deal with this. They're trying to, kind of, evolve with the times. And that includes turning maybe some of these retail spaces into apartments.

[16:50:00]

TRUONG: Into mixed-use developments. Into different places that can actually be something that fits with the 21st century urban environment.

WHITFIELD: So, does this mean the urban living is going to mean, you're going to have the great convenience of living downtown. Maybe you work downtown. But, then, if you need to shop, whether it's to go to the grocery store or, you know, to get yourself a new pair of shoes, you have to now go to the burbs? TRUONG: It's -- that might, actually, be part of the reality. Some of

the suburban locations and malls, including in San Francisco which is, you know, outside of the urban core or quite (sp) suburban, are doing really, really well. Busier than ever. So, you might have to do a little bit of a switch. Instead of going into the city, maybe go a little bit out of the city for your shopping.

WHITFIELD: All right. And, of course, the other option. The online shopping, which, as you just said, probably got them into this predicament largely in the first place. All right, Kevin Truong, thank you so much. Good to see you.

TRUONG: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: We'll be right back.

[16:51:04]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Did a now-discontinued baby powder cause cancer? In a new episode of "THE WHOLE STORY," CNN Chief Investigative Correspondent Pamela Brown looks into claims made by some of the thousands of women and men who say that Johnson & Johnson's now discontinued talc baby powder is responsible for their cancers. Here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: The Third Circuit overturned the first bankruptcy filing. Why try it a second time?

ALLISON BROWN, OUTSIDE COUNSEL, JOHNSON & JOHNSON: Because resolving this litigation is important to us and should be important to women throughout the country.

PAMELA BROWN: DOJ and its objection to this latest bankruptcy filing, it used some pretty strong words. For nearly 18 months, 10s of thousands of cancer victims have been barred from pursuing their rights. To subject these victims to any additional delay would be unconscionable. What do you say to that?

ALLISON BROWN: For the last 10 years, we have seen nothing but delay. We have seen almost no cases get to trial. So, I hope that if DOJ's focus is on compensating people, they allow us to get this plan before the people that we are proposing compensating with $9 billion.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: And joining me right now is Pamela Brown. Pamela, good to see you. You heard from both sides of this multi-billion-dollar court case, didn't you?

PAMELA BROWN (via Webex): Yes, we did. And at the center of this is this iconic product, talcum baby powder from Johnson & Johnson. It's been around for more than 125 years. It's now discontinued. But I don't know about you, Fredricka, I grew up with this product. And so, I was curious about these cancer claims that nearly 40,000 plaintiffs are making and bringing these lawsuits against Johnson & Johnson.

So, we wanted to dive in and talk to both sides. We followed the journey of three women who have cancer, ovarian cancer or mesothelioma. And they say that they have this cancer, because they used the talcum baby powder from Johnson & Johnson.

So, they filed suit against this multi-billion-dollar corporation. And they are still in the legal fight. And then, on the other side, you have Johnson & Johnson. I sat down, as you saw there, the clip you played with Allison Brown, an outside attorney for Johnson & Johnson who has defended it in court.

And she says flat out, there has never been as asbestos in the Johnson & Johnson baby powder, the talcum baby powder. And that it does not cause cancer. And she says she sympathizes with the plaintiffs that they're battling cancer. But she says it did not come from Johnson & Johnson baby powder.

And she claims that the reason there are so many plaintiffs -- she puts the onus on lawyers who she says are advertising and saying that the baby powder causes cancer when, in fact, it doesn't. So, you're going to see both sides of this laid out tonight in this hour-long investigation we did.

WHITFIELD: And you also learned that the issues go, you know, beyond this specific baby powder?

PAMELA BROWN: This is really -- it was eye opening for me, and I think it will be for you, too. Because you wear makeup, too, Fredricka, to go on television. I do as well. And what I was told by Scott Faber, with the Environmental Working Group, is that the regulation for cosmetics is different for other -- compared to other consumer products. And so, essentially, the onus is on the makeup companies to say the cosmetic is safe. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT FABER, SPOKESPERSON, ENVIRONMENTAL WORKING GROUP: This isn't a problem that's just limited to baby powder. I mean, it's easy to imagine that puff of baby powder and the likelihood that we might inhale it. But there are many other things we put on our bodies every day that we're just as likely to inhale. Think of a foundation or a blush or an eye shadow that you would put on your face.

PAMELA BROWN: So, if the powder I put on my face this morning contained talc, you would say it wasn't safe.

FABER: So, personally, I would say, certainly you took a risk that that product might be contaminated with asbestos.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Oh, yikes.

PAMELA BROWN: And, yes, and so, he told me that in December of 2022, the FDA was given more authority by Congress to at least go to these companies after the cosmetics are on the shelves and say, let me verify the safety of these cosmetics. And the FDA has more authority to recall, but their hands are still tied in many ways. And they don't really have the funding to be able to do this in a fulsome way. To go to every single company and verify the safety of products.

And so, this is also a big part of our investigation. You know, beyond just looking at these lawsuits against Johnson & Johnson and what Johnson & Johnson has to say. It also raises the question of this bigger issue of how cosmetics are regulated in America -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Oh, my goodness. All right, it's fascinating, disturbing, enlightening. All of that. Pamela Brown, thanks so much.

And, of course, we'll be tuning in for this new episode of "THE WHOLE STORY" with Anderson Cooper, "Shaken: Baby Powder on Trial."

[17:00:02]

WHITFIELD: That airs tonight at 8:00 right here on CNN.

And thank you so much for joining me this weekend. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.