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Fewer Migrants At The U.S. Border Than Expected Post-Title 42; Migrant Teen Dies In U.S. Custody In Florida; U.S. Default Risk Looms As Negotiators Work through Weekend; Ukrainians Eye Major Counteroffensive After Gains In Bakhmut; Turkiye Heads To The Polls Sunday Amid Crippling Inflation; E.U. Lawmakers Move Closer To New AI Regulation. Aired 4-5a ET

Aired May 13, 2023 - 04:00   ET




KIM BRUNHUBER, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Welcome to all of you watching us here in the United States, Canada and all around the world, I'm Kim Brunhuber. Ahead on CNN NEWSROOM:


DAVID CULVER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: These migrants who had tried to cross into the U.S. But now here they are realizing that Texas National Guard, Texas state troopers, along with CBP, will not let them through the barbed wire fence any longer. So they're coming back to the Mexico side.

BRUNHUBER (voice-over): We'll take you to the southern border, as thousands of migrants realize the end of Title 42 isn't making it easier to cross into the United States.


BRUNHUBER (voice-over): Plus, Republicans Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis will be competing for supporters tonight, as they hold dueling rallies in Iowa. We'll have a preview.

And we're on the ground in the trenches with Ukrainian troops near Bakhmut, as they fight Russia for every square foot of ground.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Live from CNN Center, this is CNN NEWSROOM with Kim Brunhuber.

BRUNHUBER: U.S. cities along the border with Mexico report fewer migrant crossings than expected on the first day since Title 42 expired. The COVID-era policy allowed authorities to swiftly expel most migrants.

Federal officials say there was no substantial increase overnight or an influx at midnight Friday morning, when Title 42 expired. Still, leaders of border cities are calling on federal authorities to help prevent illegal crossings so the situation doesn't get worse.


MAYOR JAVIER VILLALOBOS, MCALLEN, TEXAS: If things go well and if people keep on -- for example, not talking about the Mexican authorities -- advising the immigrants of the ramifications of Title 8 instead of Title 42, they will try to orderly cross where they're supposed to.

We're talking about the points of entry. If that occurs, we hope that it is not as -- I can't say tragic -- but hopefully we won't have the issues we expected.


BRUNHUBER: Mexico's foreign minister says about 10,000 migrants are waiting in Ciudad Juarez just to cross the border from El Paso. David Culver is there and spoke with some of the migrants about what comes next.


CULVER (voice-over): Sunrise over the U.S. southern border, we watch as U.S. officials process a dwindling number of migrants technically already on U.S. soil, though not yet through the border wall.

Title 42 no longer, Title 8 now back in full effect, giving these migrants the right to claim asylum. But those who fail to qualify risk being banned from entering the U.S. for at least five years.

On this spot days earlier, more than a thousand migrants camped out. Most of them had illegally crossed the barbed wire and battled brutal conditions, the night's cold and the day's scorching sun and heat, water and food scarce. Those arriving Friday disappointed and turned away.

These migrants who had tried to cross into the U.S. but now here, they are realizing that Texas National Guard, Texas state troopers, along with CBP will not let them through the barbed wire fencing any longer. And so they're coming back to the Mexico side.

In Ciudad Juarez alone, Mexico's foreign minister estimates some 10,000 migrants are still waiting to cross, many of them living in sidewalk encampments and shelters like this one, where we find a familiar face.

CULVER: We recognize him from being on the train. He said from that train they came here to the shelter.

CULVER (voice-over): Two days before, we met Jose Mesa, his 15-year- old daughter, Daisy, and 23-year-old son, Roberto, on board a freight train, carrying migrants into Ciudad Juarez. The Mesa family fled Honduras. Roberto left behind two kids who got sick along the journey. The family now staying in this church-run shelter.

CULVER: He is saying that, as of now, they just want to take a beat, if you will, pause a little bit, because they're noticing a lot of people are trying to cross and, yet, a lot of people are coming back.

I said, what are you going to do the meantime?

He said, wait.

CULVER (voice-over): Simon Campos from Venezuela has been in Mexico for eight months. Three weeks ago, he tried to enter the U.S. under Title 42 but was immediately expelled.


CULVER: He, like so many, saying the same thing, they want to do it legally; they want to do it the right way. But ultimately, he says, he's going to leave it in God's hands.

The shelter director says most here want to cross legally and spend their mornings trying to get an asylum appointment.

He said they've seen this coming now, going back at least six months. And he said the reality as he sees it is the U.S. hasn't been very prepared for this moment.

Seventy-seven people, including families with little kids, staying here for now. Pastor Javier says that's down from when we visited late last year, when some 150 crammed in. But he expects migrants will continue to come.

Driving back to the desert landscape along the border wall, down a sandy and rocky road, we find more activity across the river. One by one, U.S. officials call for the remaining group of single men. The migrants toss excess clothing in a dumpster and spread their hands against a fence.

U.S. law enforcement searched them. They then board a bus. Some will continue into the U.S., others likely to be sent back to this side of the river, Mexico, determined to find another way across.

CULVER: Most every migrant we've spoken with has told us they are on their own schedule when it comes to crossing over into the U.S. They're not going to try to follow any sort of deadline for any U.S. policy but, rather, what works best for their individual cases.

That said, all of them share the same goal. And that is to eventually cross. Most of them tell me legally but others say they're willing to do it however, so long as they can ultimately get to the U.S. -- David Culver, CNN, Ciudad Juarez, Mexico.



BRUNHUBER: For more on this I'm joined by Dylan Corbett, the executive director of El Paso's Hope Border Institute, an immigrant advocacy group.

Thank you so much for being here with us. So in terms of the number of migrants coming across, Title 42 is gone, local officials are telling us, the surge isn't as bad as predicted or as bad as they expected.

Is that what you're seeing as well?

DYLAN CORBETT, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, HOPE BORDER INSTITUTE, EL PASO: That's correct. I think, in recent days, in recent weeks we did see the numbers trend up.

But I think what was happening is that people wanted to get in under the line. People wanted to get in before the expiration of Title 42 and before we had the introduction of a new policy by the Biden administration. And I can say that, yesterday and today, the numbers have begun to taper down and we're seeing the situation stabilize.

BRUNHUBER: An official earlier in the week in El Paso, when this was coming to a head, likened it to the coming of a hurricane.

Do you think that it will be more sort of like a long, sustained storm where you might see higher numbers but for longer?

CORBETT: That's a possibility but I think that there are always naturally peaks and troughs whenever you look at the border. There are times when the numbers go up. There are times when the numbers go down.

I think overall Title 42 created a bit of a bottleneck situation. So you do have migrants throughout Mexico, migrants on their way to the border.

BRUNHUBER: You spoke about Title 42 and people wanting to get in under the wire before that expired. The impression that was being given, certainly in the media, was that, after Title 42, it would be a lot easier to get in, therefore you'd have this big surge.

Why do you think people wanted to get in before the expiration of 42?

What's the difference between that and the new policy?

CORBETT: We're moving from one bad policy to one that's not much better and, in some cases, it's actually worse. So many migrants, for example, crossed under Title 42 and would have been expelled back to Mexico or back to their home countries.

They might actually be deported now and they may be facing a penalty of up to five years so they can't come back to the United States. And if they do, they could face severe consequences. So in some respects, the new Biden policy is actually a bit more harsh in terms of deterrents.

BRUNHUBER: Of course, then, the news this week that another unaccompanied migrant child died in U.S. custody, the second in two months. Regardless, where you stand on the issue of migration politically, it is just heartbreaking.

CORBETT: Yes, that's right. I mean, over the past years and decades, we've put in a strategy, where we've hardened our borders, made it much more difficult for people to access protection and we treated migrants like criminals by detaining them, by deporting them, by arresting them. And those policies really haven't made a dent.

Migrants continue to come. Until we pivot to a solution that's much more humane and that puts in place effective, safe systems, that allow vulnerable migrants and asylum seekers to make their claims and get protection, we'll continue to see unfortunate incidents like that.


BRUNHUBER: In terms of taking care of people who have come across, it must be frustrating that so much of the slack has to be picked up by NGOs, by volunteers.

What more support should they be getting right now?

CORBETT: Yes, even though Title 42 was tremendously bad, the new policy, again, isn't much better. So border communities are left picking up the pieces of a really broken system.

So that means we have to provide shelter; we have to provide medical support; we have to assist migrants who are allowed into the country, as they make their way into the interior. And that's -- that can be a herculean effort.

But it's something we've risen to; we've risen to that challenge over and over again. I'm confident that, even in the midst of another broken policy, that we'll be able to do it. I see it every day. I've come from a shelter just now, where local communities are standing up sites to be able to receive people with dignity.

I know we can do it if we can come together. We need more resource from the federal government. When we're all rowing in the same direction, the federal government, local government, NGOs, I'm confident that we can rise to this moment.

BRUNHUBER: Yes, you speak about broken policy, it is frustrating that Congress can't come together to enact meaningful immigration reform. We'll have to leave it there. Thank you for being with us, Dylan Corbett, really appreciate it.

CORBETT: Thank you, of course.


BRUNHUBER: And migrants waiting at the southern U.S. border will be facing harsh weather conditions this weekend. Almost the entire state of Texas is under some level of risk for excessive rain, flash flooding, hail and damaging winds in the coming hours and days.


BRUNHUBER: Congressional and White House staffers are expected to keep working through the weekend to try to hammer out a deal to raise the national debt limit before it's too late.

Failure to act could lead to the first U.S. default in history, possibly within weeks, with grave consequences to global financial markets. Here's CNN's Manu Raju on Capitol Hill.


MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: For the third straight day, there have been negotiations on Capitol Hill between staff for the Republican leadership, the Democratic leadership and the White House.

And for the third straight day, there's still no deal to raise the national debt limit. The talks occurring after a meeting was cancelled for Friday between President Biden and the top congressional leaders, as they've still are struggling to get a deal.

The negotiations really began in earnest just a few days ago. One source told me that it takes months to reach this kind of agreement but they only have to do this now in a matter of days, because the prospects of a debt default are looming very large, by early June, potentially by the first two weeks of June.

That's according to a new estimate from the Congressional Budget Office, that estimates there are significant risks to a debt default, the first ever in U.S. history if the $31.5 trillion national borrowing limit is not raised.

Now there have not been negotiations because the two sides have been on opposite issues. The White House has said all along there should be no negotiations.


RAJU: Simply raise the national debt limit without any conditions to avoid economic calamity that comes with the possibility of a debt default. Republicans said there need to be some spending cuts attached to it, some conditions as well.

House Republicans passed a bill to raise the debt ceiling for a year, including a slew of spending cuts and an effort to rein in Biden policy. Democrats in the Senate said that was dead on arrival.

So that's where they leave Washington at the moment, at loggerheads. But they are progressing. I'm told they've made some progress in these negotiations but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll make -- reach a deal that could pass Congress.

Talks will occur over the weekend. The hope is to have something in hand, potentially by as early as next week, an outline of a deal. But then they need to draft it into legislative text. Then they need to actually sell it to both chambers of Congress and try to get enough support before that deadline in early June.

That is a hugely difficult obstacle to overcome. But there's still some hope that they can get there, despite the odds that are stacked up against the negotiators. The prospects of the default are very real. Both sides are trying to avoid it.

But can they? That still remains a huge question dominating Capitol Hill -- Manu Raju, CNN, Capitol Hill.


BRUNHUBER: Two advanced weapons come head to head in the skies above Ukraine. This one made by the U.S. beats a missile that Russia said was unstoppable. Details ahead.

Plus, Ron DeSantis rallies supporters in Iowa, trying to sway Republican voters as he prepares for a possible campaign launch. Stay with us.





BRUNHUBER: Russia is reportedly trying to push back against Ukraine's advances in Bakhmut. A Ukrainian officer in the city is reporting intense counterattacks as Russia tries to regain the ground it lost in recent days.

Moscow is conceding it pulled back from positions north of Bakhmut. CNN has geolocated this social media video, which appears to show Russia troops in hasty retreat.

The leader of Wagner Group says Ukraine gained two square miles on Friday alone. And Ukraine is also keeping an eye on an upcoming counteroffensive aimed at routing Russians across a bigger front. Our Nic Robertson went to the trenches to see how Ukrainians are preparing for it.


NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR (voice-over): Amid shell-smashed trees, Ukrainian troops figure out how to get as close to the new hard won gains around Bakhmut.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go behind me, distance five meters. He's going last.

ROBERTSON: How far from the Russian lines here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Close to 800 to 900.


What lessons here about a much anticipated bigger Ukraine counteroffensive.

You can see here how the ground is drying out, how wet it was before, how hard it would be for the armored vehicles to get through. The battlefield is changing. Now summers coming. And that's everything for the counteroffensive.

So we have to go a bit faster here, because they take a lot of incoming fire here.

If not for the war, it would be a lovely walk. A little cover here from shelling.


ROBERTSON: We have a drone?


ROBERTSON: Just coming here, we've heard a drone above, we've got some cover in here, hopefully, they won't see us down here. Getting closer and closer to the Russian lines.

This trench, one of several and a new minefield position to block Russian troops about 600 meters away from a counterattack out of sight. North and south of here, more Ukrainian troops advancing, building on the recent gains here.

Ukraine's Western allies say that shaping operations for the big counteroffensive are already underway. Commanders here won't say if this is part of that counteroffensive. But the gains they've had around Bakhmut are a huge morale boost for Ukrainian troops.

How does it feel to be in the battle now and to actually after all this time take more territory?

HONZA, COMBAT MEDIC: I love it actually. I love it because I'm with my family, with guys that are my family.

ROBERTSON: But success, not all that's binding appetite for victory. Mounting Russian atrocities fueling anger.

HONZA: We all just want to take our territory back and kill maximum possible Russians we can.

ROBERTSON: Do you think the Russians understand that?

HONZA: No, I don't think so. They're going to get killed, all of them.

ROBERTSON: It's going to be a tough fight for you then.

HONZA: Yes, also. But we're ready for this. It's our land.

ROBERTSON: As we leave, there are more explosions.

Then this --


ROBERTSON: We don't ask, we just run. And keep running.

We hear drones, so we're running.

They've got their armor troop transporter ready.

Yes, getting back in now, drones overhead, more artillery coming.

ROBERTSON (voice-over): It's ancient Soviet equipment. More modern NATO armor busy elsewhere on the battlefield.

ROBERTSON: There's going to be months and months and months, if not years, of warfare like this, (INAUDIBLE) taken back all those lost miles (ph).

ROBERTSON (voice-over): -- Nic Robertson, CNN, Eastern Ukraine.


BRUNHUBER: Our Salma Abdelaziz is monitoring Bakhmut and the rest of Ukraine, joining us from London.


BRUNHUBER: Salma, tell us about those Russian drone attacks.

SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The news breaking about an hour ago, Kim, the Ukrainian air force says overnight it was able to intercept 17 out of 21 Russian drones.

The drones that did hit their targets or hit locations fell in a city that is between Lviv and Kyiv, so all the way in the west of the country, an area relatively considered safe. It hit infrastructure, injuring at least five.

A reminder, Kim, even far from those front lines, people are suffering. Russian projectiles are hitting civilian areas. But to those front lines, you saw that excellent reporting from our Nic Robertson on the ground in Bakhmut.

Now this extraordinary admission from Russia that it has had to pull back. It says this is a strategic withdrawal. But we do have video to show you that CNN geolocating, showing this hasty retreat by Russian forces. This video I believe was shot on May 11th.

Of course you have this division, this very public spat on the ground with the head of the Wagner group, Yevgeny Prigozhin, saying look this was not a tactical retreat. He called it a flight, blaming Russia's defense ministry, saying they're facing losses.

All of this playing out as a major gain for President Zelenskyy ahead of the expected counteroffensive. Take a look how he addressed it during the nightly address.


VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): What is important to understand now, in their minds, the occupiers are all ready for defeat. They have already lost this war in their minds. We must put daily pressure on them so that their sense of defeat turns into their retreat, their mistakes and their losses.


ABDELAZIZ: So again, you see there, Ukrainian forces really fortifying, strengthening their positions all along that front line, particularly in Bakhmut, ahead of this expected push, this expected counteroffensive, Kim.

BRUNHUBER: All right, thanks so much, Salma Abdelaziz, appreciate it.

Volodymyr Zelenskyy is expected to hold talks with the Italian prime minister in Rome today. He could meet with Pope Francis during his visit. That meeting would happen two weeks after the Vatican said it was involved in a peace mission to try and end the war in Ukraine.

Turkish voters head to the polls on Sunday in what could be one of the most important elections in recent history. We'll have a live report from Istanbul just ahead. Please, stay with us.





BRUNHUBER: Welcome back to all of you watching us here in the United States, Canada and all around the world. I'm Kim Brunhuber, this is CNN NEWSROOM.

Ron DeSantis is acting a lot like a presidential candidate for someone who has yet to declare. He was in Illinois Friday, rallying crowds ahead of a possible announcement he indeed plans to run.

In the coming hours we'll see him hold dueling events in Iowa with top Republican candidate Donald Trump, as both men reach out to voters in the first GOP caucus state. Jeff Zeleny reports.


JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Former President Donald Trump is already looking ahead to the general election and a second term.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT: Let's just win it again and straighten out our country.

ZELENY: But before any of that, he must first get through a Republican primary and a fresh field of challengers, including Florida Governor Ron DeSantis.

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): Is this Trump country or what?

ZELENY: After circling one another for months, the two rivals are headed toward a showdown tomorrow in Iowa where Republicans will kick off voting in the presidential contest early next year.

DESANTIS: We must reject the culture of losing that has infected our party. [19:30:04]

ZELENY: DeSantis is poised to finally join the race in early June, advisers tell CNN, on a pledge to help the GOP start winning again.

DESANTIS: But if we let the election be about anything else and let Biden skate by with no accountability, Republicans will lose.

ZELENY: The question is whether he can prove he's the right man for the job. Since his maiden voyage in Iowa two months ago, lofty expectations for his candidacy have leveled off. And Trump has consolidated early support from many Republicans as he works to take command of the race.

TRUMP: I'm leading DeSanctimonious by a lot. I think he ought to just relax and take it easy and think about the future because right now, his future's not looking so good.

ZELENY: Republican voters will have the final say, of course, at the end, not the beginning of the race, that is still taking shape.

Yet, already a new season of attack ads is underway, with allies of Trump and DeSantis engaged in an extraordinary exchange of insults and accusations.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Ron DeSantis loves sticking his fingers where they don't belong. And we're not just talking about pudding. DeSantis has his dirty fingers all over senior entitlements, like cutting Medicare.


ZELENY (voice-over): At issue is a debate over reforming Social Security and Medicare, emerging once again as a central issue and scare tactic in the 2024 campaign.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Trump should fight Democrats, not lie about Governor DeSantis.

What happened to Donald Trump?


ZELENY (voice-over): After signing a flurry of new laws at the end of Florida's legislative session, DeSantis is holding up his deeply conservative record on education, abortion and more, delighting supporters and alarming critics.

DESANTIS: Bold leadership and an assertive agenda can beat the Left. And we have beaten the Left.

ZELENY (voice-over): For many Republicans, the Florida governor has stood as a beacon of hope for those who admire Trump but are eager to move on. The challenge is whether he can become the candidate many Republicans have been waiting for.

ZELENY: Now the dynamic between these two rivals is so interesting. It was only after Donald Trump learned Ron DeSantis would be spending the week in Iowa that he, too, decided to schedule a rally on Saturday.

Clearly, Trump sees DeSantis as his leading rival. But we should point out, this is the very beginning of the Republican primary race. Other candidates already in the race; others are yet to get in. Voting does not begin for at least seven months, perhaps even longer. So this race is only getting started -- Jeff Zeleny, CNN, Washington.



BRUNHUBER: Turkiye is facing a watershed moment this weekend in one of the most pivotal national elections in a generation. Voters will decide among the three remaining presidential candidates, including incumbent Recep Tayyip Erdogan. If no one gets at least 50 percent of the vote, a run-off will be held May 28th.


BRUNHUBER: Also, at stake, 600 seats in parliament. The outcome there could profoundly affect Turkiye's role in NATO, its relationship with the E.U., its migration policy, its role in the Ukraine conflict and its tensions with Greece and Cyprus in the Eastern Mediterranean over sovereignty and natural resources.

Sunday's election will be a crucial test for Erdogan, who has an outsized influence on Turkiye's standing in the world and establishing himself as a maverick within the NATO alliance. Jomana Karadsheh has our report.


JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Turkiye closed down this waterway to Russian warships when the war in Ukraine started. It is through here, the Bosphorus Strait, that Ukrainian grain now flows to the world.

It was Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdogan's ultimate balancing act, a stance some describe as pro Ukraine without being anti Russian, which allowed him to play mediator and help broker a key grain deal between Turkiye's warring Black Sea neighbors, unlocking Ukrainian grain exports and helping to avert a global hunger crisis.

(MUSIC PLAYING) KARADSHEH (voice-over): Over the years, Turkish foreign policy has come to resemble the country's president. It is combative with a personal touch. Erdogan has carved out a central role for himself and his country on the world stage.

He meted out soft power with Turkish soap operas and launched a spree of diplomatic missions in capitals long ignored by the West. Erdogan backed that with large investments in a growing defense industry, which made Turkiye one of the world's top drone manufacturers.

This key NATO member has had an uneasy alliance with its Western partners. Erdogan's leveraged NATO membership for domestically important issues. Most recently, he has held up Sweden's accession to NATO in an attempt to secure cooperation from the Nordic nation on groups Turkiye considers terrorists.

Turkiye's ongoing economic crisis has forced some diplomatic U-turns which were once unthinkable. Erdogan mended ties with oil-rich regional foes, bringing in billions of dollars of investment and much- needed hard currency.

Turkish foreign policy under Erdogan has been full of dramatic twists and turns, crises which may at times have been exacerbated by the president's personality.

But at the heart of these disagreements with allies are national interests that will remain unchanged, no matter who emerges victorious in these most consequential of elections for a country which wields power and influence far beyond its borders.


BRUNHUBER: And Jomana joins me now from Istanbul.

What's the mood there on the ground in Turkiye?

KARADSHEH: Well, Kim, final hours of campaigning here that will come to an end at 6:00 pm local time. And you've got both sides really upbeat, really their masses are galvanized.

We have seen president -- the presidential candidate for the opposition, Kemal Kilicdaroglu, campaigning in the capital, Ankara, where last night he drew massive crowds under the rain, continuing to campaign there.

You've got President Erdogan campaigning in his home city, Istanbul, today. And this is what we've seen the past few weeks, the two sides still managing to draw the large, large crowds across the country when they are out campaigning.

A real reflection of the deeply polarized country that Turkiye is right now and also the really tight race. This is the toughest challenge that President Erdogan has faced in a campaign when running for elections in the past two decades.

What you have right now is an opposition, a very, very diverse opposition -- Left, Right; centrist, conservatives, seculars -- all coming together with one aim and that is to unseat president Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

They are campaigning on a platform that is offering people change. They want to reverse the policies of the past few years. They want to take this country from what they say is one man rule back to a parliamentary system.

They want to reverse everything from foreign policy, economic policies and really telling people that this is the time that they want to revive Turkish democracy. And tomorrow it is the Turkish people who will decide.

They are looking at two very different candidates, two very different visions for the future of this country. And the stakes couldn't be any higher. People here would tell you that this is a vote that will decide the future direction their country will take, Kim.

BRUNHUBER: It will be fascinating to watch. Jomana in Istanbul, thank you so much.


BRUNHUBER: For our international viewers, watch CNN's special live coverage of the 2023 Turkiye elections, hosted by Becky Anderson this Sunday at 7:00 in the evening in London, 9:00 pm in Istanbul, right here on CNN.

Days after his dramatic arrest on corruption charges set off a wave of angry protests, former Pakistani prime minister Imran Khan is out of custody.

Supporters celebrated after he was granted bail and released. Authorities are barred from arresting Khan on any charges until Monday. He warns he won't be responsible for the reaction of supporters if he's arrested again. Will Ripley has more.


WILL RIPLEY, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Pakistan's former prime minister Imran Khan has at least some time at home now to meet with his supporters, his advisors and his wife, who he says now also is facing criminal charges.

Along with a long list of senior officials in Mr. Khan's party, the PTI, who had been rounded up and arrested in recent days, including PTI's spokeswoman Shireen Mazari, who appeared right here on CNN on Tuesday.

She's now locked up along with a lot of others who have been publicly calling these corruption charges against Khan bogus, saying that this has all been fabricated by a government that is working essentially for the military.

That's what Khan says. He blames the army chief, General Syed Asim Munir for his arrest. And he said that on Friday. So in addition to these strings of senior PTI arrests, Khan believes that more charges against him will come up suddenly and that he will be taken back into custody. He says he knows it's going to happen; it's only a matter of time. So we'll see as far as that goes.

Now that could also have an impact, of course, on these protests across the nation, which have turned violent and have turned deadly.

And fears are really growing here, because the PTI has been calling for peaceful nationwide protests. Yet a lot of the supporters of this party, supporters of Imran Khan, they're young; they are passionate.

According to it, those on the ground who have lived in this story and covered Mr. Khan over the decades -- keep in mind, he is an icon in Pakistan, who has been in the public eye since the 1970s first as a cricket player, then as a politician.

But his platform, ironically, is anti-corruption and rule of law. And now he's the one facing corruption charges. But if his young, passionate supporters start to clash with the soldiers that have been called in to keep the peace -- and keep in mind, some of these soldiers have been fighting the war on terror that began after 9/11.

So more than 20 years of battlefield experience; very little, if any, training, I'm told by our journalist on the ground there; very little training in handling civilian protesters. Well, there is a lot of fear that things could get very ugly and very deadly on the streets of Pakistan this weekend -- Will Ripley, CNN, Taipei.


BRUNHUBER: And we'll be right back, please stay with us.





BRUNHUBER: E.U. lawmakers are moving closer to passing new rules to regulate artificial intelligence tools, including ChatGPT. This week, they voted for tougher draft legislation.

The bloc's AI Act could be the world's first comprehensive legislation to regulate this new technology, including rules over facial recognition and biometric surveillance.

As part of the proposal, AI tools will be classified according to perceived level of risk from low to unacceptable.

Sarah Chander is a senior policy adviser at European Digital Rights and she joins me now from Belgrade.

Thanks for being here with us. It's interesting to get a look at what Europe is doing because it could influence what's happening here in the U.S.

So just looking at the list of measures that they're taking, what are the two of the most important ones, do you think?

I highlighted one of them, banning using biometric ID in public.

What else caught your eye?

SARAH CHANDER, SENIOR POLICY ADVISER, EUROPEAN DIGITAL RIGHTS: Yes, definitely. So also, what we have to look at in terms of the E.U. legislation is there's a whole list of prohibited technologies about what is considered unacceptable.

In addition to facial recognition, we've also seen predictive policing bans. So the idea that AI systems can predict where or by whom crime will happen before it's actually happened. That is banned under the new E.U. AI Act and will be continued to be debated.

Another thing that is a really big win for civil society is increased transparency and accountability measures on high-risk technology.

Now what that means is that, if a government or if a company is seeking to deploy a system classified as high risk, for example AI systems used to make decisions about welfare or access to jobs, for example.

The deployer of that system, the company or the government using that system, will have to declare public information about using that system and also show that how it would mitigate the potential human rights impacts.

BRUNHUBER: Yes, and predictive policing that you mentioned there, something that's been a hot button topic here in the U.S. And it's certainly being used extensively in some cities.

What are two of the most important misses here, do you think?

What wasn't included that you think should have been?

CHANDER: Definitely, so we've been looking into the uses of AI at the border, particularly of trying to predict where illegal migration is happening and also discriminatory risk profiles of migrants.

We think that AI used in these contexts should be prohibited as well. And that's particularly crucial for preserving the right to asylum and general rights of migrants. That was not included in the list of prohibitions.

BRUNHUBER: Yes, interesting.

CHANDER: Another flaw -- another flaw is the need for more accessibility requirements for people with disabilities. Many AI systems are increasingly used and yet developers have not always had them -- taken the right steps to ensure that everybody can use these systems and including people with disabilities.

BRUNHUBER: And what about ChatGPT?

I mean, that certainly is something that's been in the headlines a lot here, raised a lot of eyebrows, as people sort of come to terms with what -- with their capabilities.

How would chatbots be regulated?

CHANDER: So chatbots are regulated in two particular ways. Number one, the draft legislation would require you to be informed if you're interacting with a chatbot, which is already important, an important measure against disinformation or people being tricked into thinking that they are speaking to a human. So that's one step.

But also, the legislation seeks to try to address the underlying issues with big, large language models underlying ChatGPT. There are massive environmental impacts when you develop those systems.

But also there are labor exploitation issues. What this legislation seeks to do is require big companies like Open AI or like Google, for example, who are developing those systems --


CHANDER: -- to disclose more information exactly about the level of compute needed, which is a massive issue. And that's a bit more of an underlying issue that's often ignored in a conversation about ChatGPT.

BRUNHUBER: Yes, it's not something I've ever thought about in all of the implications here.

Now in terms of the companies that, you know, if they were to break the rules, it seems as though the punishment would be more than just a slap on the wrist, right?

CHANDER: Definitely. So for some of the -- some of the requirements in the legislation, there is a fine that could actually potentially go up into the millions. So there's potential real accountability that is at stake here. But that depends on how the final piece of legislation is negotiated, which will probably happen at the end of this year.

BRUNHUBER: Yes. Before we go, I want to ask you this because this is vital for the U.S. I mean, the E.U. isn't a huge developer of AI technology but certainly what happens in Europe often, you know, gets passed down to the U.S., things like privacy issues, online and so on.

What's happened in Europe has affected what's happened here in America and in Canada, elsewhere.

So how do you think that what is happening in Europe might trickle down and we might see some of that regulation be replicated elsewhere?

CHANDER: Yes, definitely. We call it the Brussels effect, so legislation passed in the E.U. definitely gets passed on to across the world. I think the main message for the U.S. is really to look for the E.U. and in terms of the human rights-centered approach the European Parliament is trying to take. It's looking at issues like racial discrimination, like migrants

rights and all of these things are often underlooked in the question about technology development. I think that's a really big learning and message I would take to U.S. regulators.

They are looking to look at regulating technology. It's not just all about the profits that can be made; it's about the people, too.

BRUNHUBER: Excellent point. We'll have to leave it there. Appreciate getting your insights on this, Sarah Chander, senior policy adviser at European Digital Rights, appreciate it.


BRUNHUBER: Hours away from the final of one of the world's favorite song contests, Eurovision. We will have more on what to expect and who are the favorites after the break. Please stay with us.





BRUNHUBER: We're just hours away from the final of the Eurovision song contest, 26 acts take the stage in Liverpool, England, the substitute host for last year's winner, Ukraine.

Among those performing will be the Ukrainian duo TVORCHI. They hope their song, "Heart of Steel" will bring their nation the trophy again. But unlike last year, when Ukraine had a 62 percent chance of winning, bookies give them just a 7 percent this time.

The favorite is Sweden's Loreen with a 49 percent chance of winning. Finland has a 20 percent chance of winning with their performer, Kaarija; song, "Cha Cha Cha."

That wraps this hour. I'm Kim Brunhuber. I'll be back with more news after a quick break, stay with us.