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Trump: "This Is A Political Hit Job;" Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski Dies At 81; Security Ramps Up As Trump Set To Appear in Miami Court; Weekly Jobless Claims Increase More Than Expected; Sources: China Operating Military, Spy Facilities In Cuba; ND Gov. Doug Burgum Launches 2024 White House Bid. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired June 10, 2023 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:30]

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN HOST: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Alex Marquardt in Washington, in today for Jim Acosta. Thank you so much for joining us.

Former President Donald Trump preaching to the party faithful today at the state GOP convention in Columbus, Georgia. He cast this week's federal indictment as election interference and "a political hit job."

CNN's Kristen Holmes is there in Columbus, Georgia.

Kristen, the former president speaking for about an hour-and-a-half clearly eager to start making his case.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Alex. And most of the speech which was technically a political speech, he is speaking at the Georgia GOP convention. This was on his schedule as part of his campaign before he was indicted, spending most of it talking about those legal battles.

And it wasn't just the federal indictment, it was the indictment in Manhattan, it was the Department of Justice. He was talking about that investigation here in Fulton County, Georgia in his attempts to overturn the election.

Clearly, this was consuming to him and it continued after he left, after giving the speech, he went to a Waffle House nearby, was asked about why he kept the documents, why he kept them for so long. Take a listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We did absolutely nothing wrong. Take a look at the Presidential Records Act. We did it by the book. Perfect. Except we have thugs and creeps running this country and it's a real problem for our country.

But we're going to straighten it away. We're going to win the election big and we're going to clean up the mess and we're going to clean up the cancer because that's what we have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: And as you said, he gave the speech for 90 minutes, 40 minutes or so was focused on his legal problems. Then he went to the Waffle House after that, also focused very largely on his legal problems.

And I want to show you another video from this Waffle House. Look who is standing nearby. This is his body man, his aide Walt Nauta, who was indicted alongside him with conspiracy charges.

There had been questioned about what exactly was going to happen once Nauta was indicted. Was he going to separate from Trump in any way? It does not appear so.

I am told that he is traveling with Trump all day. Trump is in North Carolina now. So something to keep in mind here, and I do want to just note one other thing. We talked a lot in the last several days about what this indictment would mean for the Republican Party and for 2024.

I understand that where we are now in Georgia is just a sliver, a sect of the Republican Party, but they were very receptive to the former president. They did not care about this indictment. They said it was phony. They said it was a hoax. They cheered when he insulted Hillary Clinton and President Biden, when he went after prosecutors, and they chanted "Four more years."

So you know, we talk about this a lot. What exactly does this mean for 2024? What is going to happen to the Republican Party? In this at least section of the Republican Party, they are still fully backing him.

MARQUARDT: Yes, remarkable to see those two men in public who now face some very, very serious charges.

Kristen Holmes in Columbus, Georgia. Thank you very much.

Joining us now is CNN contributor, John Dean, former White House counsel to Richard Nixon.

Mr. Dean, thank you so much for joining us today.

Fifty years ago, of course, you were part of an administration that broke the law and tried to cover it up, but Richard Nixon, he never resigned, so he was never impeached and never tried in the Senate.

Now, he ultimately got a pardon from Gerald Ford, the man who Nixon handpicked to be his vice president, after Spiro Agnew resigned.

Now, Ford said it was for the good of the country, but Nixon was never held accountable. So do you think that that set a dangerous, dangerous precedent that painted presidents as above the law?

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I think it did, actually.

As the person who blew up that administration, I had a special interest and was following very closely, so, I was sort of distressed that Ford so easily pardoned Nixon. He did it for his own purposes, not for Nixon's, that wasn't really an act of grace, but an act of his ability to govern, because he thought he wouldn't be able to if he was constantly having to respond to criminal inquiries regarding Nixon, who would then have been on trial.

So I think it has left us in this situation we are today where crowds cheer Trump who has got an indictment. Had that been solved 50 years ago, we wouldn't be seeing the same sort of reaction.

MARQUARDT: And then after he resigned in 1977, he told the interviewer, David Frost, he gave him that infamous line that when the president does it, that means it's not illegal.

[18:05:09]

And clearly former President Trump buys into that premise somewhat. Do you think that Trump will ever go to jail for these alleged offenses?

DEAN: Well, Nixon's comment was in the arena of international affairs and national security issues. That was the very specific question that Frost asked him. It was an outrageous answer and showed where his head was, though, and will it affect -- is it true that presidents are not going to be held accountable and subject to the rule of law? I don't think so.

But we're certainly on a test as a country right now with the first probably or actually the second of many indictments that Trump is facing.

MARQUARDT: We do know that that FBI search on Mar-a-Lago last summer came only after months of negotiations between the National Archives and the former president after a subpoena. Does the fact that the former president is only being charged for the documents that he held on to after receiving that subpoena last year, does that tell us that he could have very easily avoided all of this?

DEAN: I think he could have.

First of all, the trouble started when he decided to take documents with him after he left the White House. He knew better. He had several people apparently internally told him he couldn't take documents.

So yes, he could have left the documents, he could have had access to any of them, and we don't know exactly why he took them and what he had in mind with these documents, but he certainly did create himself a lot of trouble, knowingly that he didn't own those documents and they were not his.

MARQUARDT: Yes. He was given so many chances to hand those back in. We do expect, of course, to see the former president in court on Tuesday, where he'll be arrested and processed.

Law enforcement, law enforcement officials are scrambling to get ready for that arraignment. Now, given the former president's ability to rile up his base. Of course, we saw that back on January 6th, how worried are you about what could play out on Tuesday? DEAN: Alex, I think that the public and his supporters got a message

as a result of what has transpired since January 6th, where they seemed aggressive federal enforcement go after people who did riot and had that insurrection at the Capitol, certainly dampened the enthusiasm for the sort of the crowd he called for in Manhattan when he was indicted there and arraigned there.

So I don't really think it's going to be bad. I don't know for certain, but my instinct is that big crowds will not turn out. Curiosity people who are watching a train wreck, they show up.

MARQUARDT: In this indictment, almost 50 pages, I assume you've had a chance to review it. Clearly, Jack Smith and his prosecutors are trying to tell a story that is easily digestible and really drives home the seriousness of what happened here.

In your view, what's the strongest part of this indictment? This case against Donald Trump?

DEAN: I think it's strong from US versus Trump right to those signatures on the bottom at the end. It's a very powerful case, it's been carefully thought out. They have focused on areas where they clearly have a tremendous amount of evidence.

I think the most difficult thing probably was the decision to decide which documents they might want to be willing to produce in court to make their case because there is something called graymail where sometimes people who take documents improperly or disclose secrets, try to hold it against the government that will not want to disclose that information.

I suspect also there are probably a dozen or more documents they don't want to have released. So they've made a very careful judgment and created a good narrative, a speaking indictment that tells a story and it is not a pretty story.

MACDONALD: Yes, those 31 documents, just around 10 percent of the classified documents that President Trump took with him after his presidency.

John Dean, you, of course, were part of one of the most tumultuous periods in modern presidential history. Did you ever imagine after all, that chaos of Watergate, that the country would again face a situation where a former president sits accused of such serious crimes?

DEAN: I didn't, but I must say for the last seven years, I have been worried about it happening again and this day doesn't surprise me for that reason, but it certainly, when we went through Watergate and particularly the position I took myself with coming forward voluntarily to try to end it, I hope that was the end of it because democracy doesn't do well in these sort of circumstances.

[18:10:12]

DEAN: So we're being tested, as I said earlier, Alex, and it's a stress test that is going to be very important.

MARQUARDT: Yes, certainly being tested. We saw the former president today defiant out there on the campaign trail.

John Dean, thank you, as always, for your perspective, really appreciate it.

Now the Unabomber is dead. Ted Kaczynski was found unresponsive in his cell earlier today. He spent years mailing and hand delivering sophisticated bombs, killing three people and injuring 23 others.

Now in the end, it was Kaczynski's own brother, who helped the FBI finally put the pieces together and help solve the case and lead agents to him.

CNN's Polo Sandoval joins me now with the latest.

Polo, Kaczynski terrorized the country for years. What more are we learning about his death?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the Federal Bureau of Prisons, Alex, will only say that they made that discovery overnight. Kaczynski was unresponsive in his cell. He was taken to the hospital where the convicted bomber was then pronounced dead.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANDOVAL (voice over): Known infamously as the Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski was serving eight life sentences for his 17-year deadly reign of terror when he died Saturday.

Prison officials tell CNN the ailing 81-year-old was found unresponsive in a cell overnight, his cause of death not yet released.

In December 2021, Kaczynski was transferred to a federal medical facility in Butner, North Carolina used to house inmates with health conditions.

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I think it's very important for transparency reasons to fully understand the circumstances around the death, but I would caution speculation at this point. We don't really have any reason to believe anything untoward happened here just yet.

SANDOVAL (voice over): Andrew McCabe is a former FBI deputy director, who was with the Bureau as agents closed the Unabomber case.

It was in 1978 when Kaczynski started his campaign of violence by leaving a mail bomb in a parking lot at the Chicago University. He would go on to plant explosives on an airplane, university buildings, and by computer stores. He also mailed powerful bombs to university professors and business executives.

By the time he was arrested in 1996, his 16 devices killed three innocent people and injured 23 others. His own words published in a Manifesto, what would eventually lead FBI agents to his off-the-grid primitive cabin in the woods of Montana, tipped off by Kaczynski's own brother.

MCCABE: He pursued this bombing campaign as a way of striking back against technological advancement, which he believed was damaging the environment in ways that needed to be stopped.

SANDOVAL (voice over): Before becoming a prolific bomber, Kaczynski was a high school honor student in Illinois, who enrolled at Harvard at just 16. It was during his college years that Kaczynski took a dark turn recalled his brother,

DAVID KACZYNSKI, TED KACZYNSKI'S BROTHER: Ted was withdrawn. There wasn't the desire to come home and enjoy the family.

SANDOVAL (voice over): As part of a deal with prosecutors to dodge the death penalty, Kaczynski admitted to the bombings and was sent to Colorado's Supermax Prison where he remained until his medical transfer.

At the time of Kaczynski 1998 sentencing, the widow of victim, Gil Murray wrote: "He will never, ever kill again."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANDOVAL (on camera): And no doubt this closes a very dark chapter for so many people involved in this case, Alex. In fact, Merrick Garland, who now serves as the attorney general of the United States, was actually the person that not only oversaw the case, but also the prosecution as well.

But of course, as we close that piece, for the families of the victims, this is certainly going to be an important moment for them, as well.

MARQUARDT: Certainly a lot of members of the FBI, considering and thinking back to those years that they spent chasing him.

Polo Sandoval, thank you so much for that report.

And coming up, we will be taking you live to Miami where there is a massive security operation underway to prepare for Trump's court appearance there next week.

And later, the Federal Reserve is meeting this week. Will they raise interest rates yet again, or has inflation cooled enough for the rates to hold?

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:18:23]

MARQUARDT: On Tuesday, former President Trump is expected to be formally arrested, processed, and have his initial appearance all inside the federal courthouse in Miami, Florida.

That building will of course be under heavy security on Tuesday afternoon. CNN's Shimon Prokupecz joins us now live from Miami.

Shimon, how much did law enforcement have to scramble to come up for a plan for Tuesday?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, they had to scramble actually in real time because they were not given a heads up and really the indictment, it caught everyone by surprise and the only way we learned about it, of course, is because of the former president posting on Truth Social.

And so after that point, law enforcement certainly had to scramble, the Secret Service and the US Marshals and the Federal Protective Services, which really run some of the security at federal institutions and courthouses all gathered here yesterday to try and talk about logistics and how to get the former president into the courthouse, get him processed and all of those things you mentioned safely and get him out as quickly as possible.

But the biggest concern really, Alex is what's going to happen outside the courthouse and the courtroom, and there's a lot of concern that people are going to gather here. A lot of concern that someone is going to try to disrupt the proceedings, cause problems, so that is a big effort by the Miami Police Department, the Miami-Dade County Police, the sheriff's office, and state police officers here who are really going to be in charge of the perimeter and the outside area of the courthouse.

And so we're going to see a lot of street closings and then extra officers come in from the local police department, but also the state, and then federal resources also that are going to be poured in to this area to try and secure the area.

[18:20:15]

And so that is the big concern really, it is outside. Who is going to show up? And if anyone is going to try to start any kind of trouble outside the courthouse.

MARQUARDT: Yes, when the president was arrested in New York, and of course, you were there, it really was an all-hands on deck incident. All kinds of police officers from across NYPD were told to be on duty.

The former president has his own Secret Service detail, of course, you've got the Miami Police force there, which is quite large, how much more do we know about other law enforcement assets that are being asked to join in and help?

PROKUPECZ: Right, so the State Police are going to assist certainly on the roads and the highways leading in to the courthouse as the president -- the former president makes his way in.

And then along the streets here, if it is needed, the State Police will put in resources, the local police department has told their officers not to take any days off. They're going to put officers who normally are not in uniform, detectives, and other officers into uniform and have them out as extra officers, just in case if they need.

In New York, really, it was all hands on deck. You had the court officers, the NYPD along with some federal officials in the surrounding area come in and try and help. We're going to see something very similar here.

There is one little difference here. You know, this area of the courthouse is a little more remote. It is more secure. There isn't as much traffic.

So they're going to be able to close it down sooner. They are going to be able to close more down quicker. And really, it's going to be something that will be easier for them to manage.

The other advantage they have here is that they could take the former president underground. They couldn't do that in New York. He had to walk in through the doors of the Manhattan DA's office. They don't have to do that here.

He could go underground, get into the courthouse, and they can process him, get him out the same way and get him on his way. So that certainly gives them a big advantage -- Alex.

MARQUARDT: All right. Well, we expect similar scenes, as we did in Manhattan there in Miami on Tuesday afternoon where we know we will find you Shimon Prokupecz. Thank you so much for breaking that down for us.

And still ahead, what Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy is saying about whether this much anticipated counteroffensive against Russia has started.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:26:48]

MARQUARDT: Now to the latest on the war in Ukraine.

President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has issued his clearest indication yet that Ukraine's long awaited counteroffensive to push back the Russians and recapture land is now underway.

The Ukrainian leader responding forcefully to claims from President Vladimir Putin of Russia that the counteroffensive is not having success.

CNN's Sam Kiley has the latest now from Kyiv.

SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Alex, part of the Ukrainian preparations or indeed early stages of the counteroffensive is to destabilize not only the military situation for the Russians, but also the mental state of the Russians and certainly, judging by the reactions that Vladimir Putin has been making, that is certainly something that Zelenskyy thinks he's done. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY speaking in foreign language.)

TRANSLATION: It is interesting that Putin was talking about counteroffensive. It's important for Russia to always feel that they don't have much time left.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KILEY: Now, the counteroffensive from a Ukrainian perspective is probably underway. It is at a low-level, probing attacks along the frontline between Zaporizhzhia, which is Ukrainian held and the Russian held area of Donetsk. A lot of company-size attacks there, essentially probing the frontlines trying to seek out weak spots in what is known to be a very substantial defensive line there because it is the main route that the Russians would need to defend if the Ukrainians want to punch all the way through to the Crimean peninsula, which of course was captured by Russia back in 2014.

But also, on the eastern front, the Ukrainians have enjoyed considerable gains of up to about three or four miles as they come southeast in an offensive there. Again, it's not necessarily part of this wider concept of a counteroffensive, but may offer tactical gains that could develop into having strategic effects.

What the Ukrainians are doing at the moment, is constantly probing and seeking the opportunity to rattle the Russians, hopefully cause dramas and frictions within the Russian leadership, rattle them inside their own territory with their cross border raids with the Russian dissidents that have been sponsored by the Ukrainian government, then military raids into Russian territory.

They're all adding up to this very fractious world that the Russian soldier and their generals are now ultimately, Vladimir Putin are having to deal with -- Alex.

MARQUARDT: All right, our thanks to Sam Kiley in Kyiv for that report.

And up next, should you be bracing for yet another interest rate hike? The Federal Reserve is meeting this week. We will be breaking down what indicators to look for. That's next, you're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:33:38]

MARQUARDT: We are keeping an eye on the Federal Reserve as it gets ready to consider interest rates hikes during its meeting next week. Let's bring in CNN Global Economic Analyst, Rana Foroohar. She's the author of "Makers and Takers: The Rise of Finance and the Fall of American Business." She's also a global business columnist and associate editor for The Financial Times. And, of course, all that making her the perfect person to put on the spot and ask.

Rana, do you think the Fed is going to be raising interest rates or not when it meets next week or just pause them?

RANA FOROOHAR, CNN GLOBAL ECONOMIC ANALYST: I - if I had to place a bet, I think that we're going to be on a pause and I'll tell you why. We are at a funny point right now in the economic cycle. On the one hand, the U.S. economy has done better than almost anybody would have predicted, frankly, in the midst of so many headwinds. At - on the other hand, you still have inflation, you still have a very hot job market.

So I think the Fed is probably going to err on the side of caution and say, let's hold for a month. That said, I do think we're going to see probably another couple of quarter point raises before the end of the year. I imagine that they're going to feel like they need to worry more about inflation if we see more robust jobs numbers, which we may get in the next couple of weeks.

MARQUARDT: Can you explain a little further what would be the reason to pause interest rates?

[18:35:02]

FOROOHAR: Yes, the Fed needs to fight inflation, but it doesn't want to derail the economy. And it has to balance always those two priorities at the same time. Now, most people, including me think that the Fed has been a little bit behind the fight against inflation. At the same time, given what's happened in the banking sector with Silicon Valley Bank, we're starting to see some shakiness in commercial real estate, you still got the fallout of the pandemic.

What's this going to do to cities? What's this going to do to jobs, longer term? You've got AI. I mean, there's so many things in flux right now.

And so there's also a sense that, gosh, there's a lot happening. So maybe it's not a bad time to wait for a month or two and just let the dust settle and then go ahead maybe before the end of the year and hike rates a couple more times if we need to.

MARQUARDT: And speaking of dust settling, we've just seen this incredible fight in Congress over the debt ceiling negotiations - fierce negotiations between the White House and congressional Republicans in the House. Now we have congressional Democrats, we're looking to pass a bill that overhauls that debt ceiling process. In your mind, what needs to change?

FOROOHAR: Well, it's a really good question, Alex. A lot of countries don't have the sort of debt ceiling limit that the U.S. does. And you can argue about whether that's a good idea or not, but what it helps them to avoid this kind of every couple of years, every three years standoff that we're having in this country, which is in and of itself, bad for America's credit.

I mean, every single time we get to the brink and we always get to the brink. It makes the U.S. look as though it can't govern and it makes international creditors worried about the U.S. And at a time when, frankly, there are fewer buyers of our treasury bills of U.S. death than there have been in the past overseas, not to say that there aren't a lot, but fewer than in the past.

I think there's a sense that hey, maybe we need to think about trying to fix this process in a longer term way rather than just having this last minute, gosh, what's going to happen nail biter every few years.

MARQUARDT: Yes. It truly took on a - it seems to take on more of a political dimension than really an economic dimension. And then on the job list ...

FOROOHAR: Yes.

MARQUARDT: ... on the job market, on Wednesday we saw the weekly jobless claims, those rose more than expected. Why do you think that was?

FOROOHAR: I think that there is a sense that there's softening in the economy, the global economy. China is having some trouble. We're getting a sense that things could be in a slowdown for a lot of markets. And companies, although, I don't think you're going to see any kind of mass layoffs, I don't think that you're going to see a real cut back, I think that they're thinking, okay, maybe between the technology that we might be able to use now to do certain jobs and a slowdown globally, maybe it's time to pull back a bit.

I got to say, though, I would have thought at this point, we would have seen a much less hot job market than we still have. I mean that the labor market has performed incredibly robustly in the face of a lot of challenges in the last few years.

MARQUARDT: And speaking of performing robustly, Wall Street just entered a new bull market, stock prices are up 20 percent from their lows.

FOROOHAR: Yes.

MARQUARDT: Do you think, Rana, that the economy is at a turning point?

FOROOHAR: Alex, I got to say, it is more difficult than ever before in the 32 years that I've been doing this job I'm to predict what's going to happen next. I think that companies are, again, are looking at the technology coming down the pike. AI is going to be able to do a lot of white collar jobs, it's going to be able to increase productivity actually for a lot of us.

Even if you have a good job, you can still really increase your productivity that's good for corporate margins. There's also a sense that when the U.S. - or sorry, when the when the world is slowing down, that the U.S. is still a relatively robust market. And I think that that pick stocks up.

I always say this and I've been saying this for the last several years, but oftentimes America is the prettiest house on an ugly block. That is the global economy in the downturn. And I think that that's still the case. Corporations are feeling good and as long as they're feeling good, I think we can feel okay about the economy.

MARQUARDT: Well, a lot of indicators to watch in the very near future.

Rana Foroohar, as always, thank you very much for your expertise.

All right. We are learning new details about China's spying capabilities. Today, sources confirming to CNN that China has been spying on the U.S. from various sites based in Cuba for years. Now, this comes after reports surfaced earlier this week that Cuban officials agreed to let China build a new spy facility on its Island, which the White House then vigorously denied.

[18:40:00]

Those spy facility reports coming as tensions remain high between Washington and Beijing.

And joining us now to discuss all this is the former ambassador to China, Max Baucus. Ambassador Baucus, thank you so much for joining us. I want to first ask what you make of the administration denying this report about a new facility, saying today that spying by China from Cuba is "an ongoing issue," not a new development. What is your understanding, Ambassador, of China's intelligence and military capabilities in China - in Cuba rather?

MAX BAUCUS, FORMER AMBASSADOR TO CHINA: Well, I was surprised at the first response by the administration that they were surprised (inaudible) that denied China's presence in Cuba. There has been a presence in Cuba, but I think frankly, it's not quite as strong as some fear. Although I think China would like to make it much stronger in Cuba.

I think it's important also to remember that the shoe were on the other foot, the Chinese are very concerned about the United States spying on China, for example. Spy planes go up and down the Chinese coast, U.S. fly planes go up the Chinese coast virtually daily.

There are large intelligence operations over - in that part of the world, U.S. operations in South Korea and Japan. And they feel they're contained by the United States. So little bit the shoe is on the other foot right now.

The real question here is how much of this escalates tension between the two countries? I hope not. Neither country wants war. The United States and China have very quietly sending diplomats to each other's country trying to cool things down. I hope that this is not an incident that's blown out of proportion, because if it is that's going to derail some of the ongoing efforts by both countries to try to cool things down.

MARQUARDT: Yes. This is part of the spy games. Of course, the most obvious example of that recently was that spy balloon, as you point out. Ambassador, the administration ...

BAUCUS: Right.

MARQUARDT: ... also today, pointing out that the Chinese made upgrades to their intelligence collection facilities in Cuba in 2019, a Biden ministration official saying they "inherited" this issue, which then lays blame with the previous administration, which as you know well was full of China hawks. Do you think that that's fair to say that they inherited this issue?

BAUCUS: Not really, no. It's an ongoing problem. China is developing its capability slowly but surely. And it's - don't really make much difference which administration's in power. We the United States want to protect our national security. Trump clearly wanted to do so as Biden.

No, this is just an escalation that the administration is trying to tamp down, frankly, it's very important that the administration does so. And I think that's the reason for the back and forth. It's kind of the inconsistencies in the administration statement or underlying the point that it's very critical for both United States and China to start to cool it a little bit, recognize that neither country is going anywhere. We got to get along in this world together. Let's figure out how to do it.

And I complement the administration in trying to do so with the inviting the commerce minister from China to come to the U.S. to meet with Secretary Raimondo and meet with the USTR (ph), Thai and also Blinken is probably going over soon. Assistant Secretary (inaudible) Blake (ph) was over there recently as was CIA Director Burns. So there's a lot of low key efforts to try to tamp down tension, it's critical that we do so. And it means that we have to recognize each other, China is not going away. U.S. isn't going away. We're both very proud nations. Let us help cool down to temperature.

MARQUARDT: Yes, and that tension was on full display after the Chinese declined a meeting between the top defense officials, Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin.

BAUCUS: Right.

MARQUARDT: He only got a handshake when he went to Singapore. But as you just noted, and CNN has reported this ...

BAUCUS: Right.

MARQUARDT: ... secretary Blinken is expected to go over to Beijing after canceling a meeting that he had back in February. Do you think that is a sign that that tension is easing, that relations are warming or is it just far too soon to say that?

BAUCUS: Well, it's - I'm not terribly surprised that the Chinese general refused to meet with Secretary Austin, after all, United States has sanctioned the Chinese general and Chinese general felt that (inaudible) sanction, you can't (inaudible).

I think that the Blinken trip is really important. But again, it's deeds not words. There are a lot of nice sounding words both sides and the real question is are there events that derail the nice sounding words or contradict the nice sounding words.

[18:45:01] And I think the administration is right now trying to make sure that

the development of potential and partially actual Chinese spying in Cuba is not an incident that derails, let's say, the Blinken visit. Don't forget it was the balloon in the air that derailed the last Blinken visit. I think administration doesn't want this new development, Chinese spying out of Cuba to derail Blinken's visit going back over to China.

MARQUARDT: Well, that certainly explained the messaging from the White House. It is, of course, a critical moment between the United States and China. Very much appreciate your time and your thoughts.

Ambassador Max Baucus. Thank you very much.

BAUCUS: You bet. Thank you.

MARQUARDT: Now, up next the 2024 field is getting crowded. One of the newest faces to throw his hat in the ring is the governor of North Dakota, Doug Burgum. A deeper look into his political career, that's next. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:50:18]

MARQUARDT: The Republican presidential primary field continues to grow. This week, North Dakota governor, Doug Burgum, threw his hat in the ring at a rally in Fargo on Wednesday. The former software entrepreneur highlighted his small town roots and his business experience. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. DOUG BURGUM (R) NORTH DAKOTA: If you want more small town common sense in Washington and our big cities, we'll make that happen. And if you think that we need a governor and business leader who understands this changing economy, I want to earn your vote.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: Joining us now is North Dakota political columnist Rob Port.

Rob, thank you so much for joining me. You have been covering Doug Burgum for years. And for most of our viewers who may not have heard of the Governor, give us a quick sense of who he is and what he's about.

ROB PORT, POLITICAL COLUMNIST: Well, first and foremost, he's a North Dakotan, which might be the most interesting part of his story. He grew up in a small town as he has obviously made central to his campaign so far. But where it really gets interesting is he founded and ultimately sold the Microsoft a multibillion dollar software company. And I think what - the hook there because there's a lot of successful people who run for office, I think the hook there is that he did it in North Dakota. And also once he sold the company to Microsoft, didn't leave North

Dakota. He stayed and, in fact, convinced Microsoft to build what I understand reportedly is their largest campus outside of the state of Washington. They built it in North Dakota.

So somebody who can pull something out, I mean, I think that's a really interesting story that, obviously he gets to tell about himself as he enters the race.

MARQUARDT: Yes, it certainly is. He is, of course, a long shot for the nomination. You've said, however, that people should not write them off. Explain why.

PORT: Yes. Well, I think he's got some things going for him. I - obviously this is - I always like to say we're kind of through the looking glass politically. I mean, it's such a chaotic situation, who knows who can catch fire.

But the other thing is he has a lot of wealth behind him and he has a lot of connections that maybe other candidates, maybe even governors of a state like North Dakota don't have because of his success in the private sector.

He personally has significant amounts of money that he can put into his campaign when you look at what some of the other candidates are spending or have raised so far. I was looking at a report the other day, like Nikki Haley somewhere in the ballpark of like $5 million on hand, Burgum can be competitive with them financially and I think not just out of his own pocket either. Already he's up. I think they have multimillion dollar advise between Iowa and New Hampshire. So far I'm sure there's significant amount coming. If his biggest obstacle right now is name ID, that's something he can probably fix pretty quickly.

MARQUARDT: Yes, reach (ph) and name ID, so much of that comes down to money. As he made that transition, Rob, from this very successful software entrepreneur to being the governor, how did he - how has he made that transition? What's his governorship been like?

PORT: It's I think, largely successful. I think it's - he's - it was a little bit of a rocky start with the legislature. I think sometimes, a criticism that's often been made of him, and maybe one that I've made is sometimes he can view our state legislature as a division of North Dakota Incorporated, right? He's very used to being a CEO, forgetting the legislature, it's a separate branch of government. He's had some clashes with the legislature in the past.

But really, that's normal, right for the American system of government for the legislative branch to clash with the executive branch, maybe just a little bit out of the norm of what North Dakotans have expected in modern politics, but he has been aggressive. And really, I think the one skill that's translated well, is his ability to surround himself with good people. He's brought good people in. He's gotten a lot done as governor.

MARQUARDT: I want to play for our audience a little bit of what Burgum has said about the kind of candidate that he thinks voters want in 2024. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BURGUM: We need a leader who understands the real work that Americans do every day, someone who's worked alongside our farmers, our ranchers and our small business owners, someone who's held jobs where you shower at the end of the day, not at the beginning.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: Is that argument landing with voters, do you think, a billionaire pitching himself as someone who has done that kind of work as more relatable?

[18:55:05]

PORT: Yes. Well, I mean, first of all, this is a billionaire who - again, started his own company. I mean, this is not a billionaire, who was handed a company or was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. As he said, he started a shoeshine business at one point. He was sweeping chimneys in rural North Dakota. I think the difference is, is when he says some of those things, he could say it with an authenticity that maybe some other candidates can't.

MARQUARDT: Yes, he's certainly got an interesting story to tell and I'm sure we'll be hearing a lot more from him and from you.

Rob Port, thank you very much.

PORT: Thank you.

MARQUARDT: All right. And coming up, Former President Donald Trump is now lashing out at the Department of Justice and Special Counsel Jack Smith, following his federal criminal indictment. We have the latest on his attack strategy. That's coming up next.

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