Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

CNN International: Navalny Claims Extremism Charges "Absurd"; Clashes Erupt as Israeli Forces Raid West Bank City; Can U.S. and China Patch up their Relationship; Blinken Hopes to Rest U.S.-China Relations; CNN Speaks with Former Starvation Cult Member. Aired 8- 8:30a ET

Aired June 19, 2023 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

MAX FOSTER, CNN HOST: Hello, and welcome to CNN "Newsroom", I'm Max Foster in London. Just ahead, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken meets with China's Xi Jinping in a high stakes trip and managing tensions between the world's superpowers. A huge firefighter erupts between Israeli Military forces and Palestinian militants in the occupied West Bank City of Jenin, a live report coming up.

And CNN goes in depth with more the chilling investigation into a mass grave found in Kenya linked to a religious cult. There signs of a little bit of a thought in U.S.-Chinese relations. These are pictures we weren't sure we'd actually see U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken meeting in Beijing with China's President Xi Jinping.

The meeting wasn't publicly announced until about an hour before it took place. The high stakes visit is an effort to reset strained relations between Washington and Beijing. A series of scribbles has left the two superpowers barely talking. And that's something Blinken wants to fix.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: In every meeting, I stress that direct engagement and sustained communication at senior levels is the best way to responsibly manage our differences and ensure that competition does not veer into conflict. And I heard the same from my Chinese counterparts. We both agree on the need to stabilize our relationship.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Joining me now Washington Post Columnist and CNN political analyst, Josh Rogin, thank you so much for joining us, Josh. We were never going to get any big headlines out of this. It's just about beginning the process, I guess of opening a dialogue.

JOSH ROGIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, that's right, Max. The Biden Administration set low expectations for Antony Blinken's trip to Beijing. And they have met those low expectations, no more, no less. What we heard from both sides is that the meetings were candid and constructive. And even that some small agreements were reached.

Although we don't know what those agreements are, we can say that this has at least slowed the decline of U.S.-China relations, which are at their worst points since 1979. However, big questions remain about whether or not these two powers can get along and in the long term, and also whether or not this means that China has abandoned any notion of meeting the U.S.

And world demands that it stopped some of its most problematic behaviors, including its military expansion, its menacing of Taiwan, its crackdown on Hong Kong, its genocide against the Uyghurs, its repression in Tibet and lots of other stuff. So while it's very good to talk, it can also be said that a big problems remain not just in U.S.-China relations, but in the regions response to China's rise where it affects them.

And none of those problems seem to have been addressed what we can expect to see going forward, Max, is that now we're going to have a line of U.S. economic officials traveling to Beijing, Secretary of the Treasury Yellen, Secretary of Commerce Raimondo and others, and this is what China really wants.

They wanted to get past the Blinken visit without making any concessions so that they can engage on the economics, which is where they have the real desire to engage. What the U.S. wants is just for President Xi to travel to San Francisco in November to attend the APEC conference and meet with President Biden.

And that's what President Biden said that he really wants and if everything goes, OK, I think we'll get to that, but it doesn't mean that the big problems between the U.S. and China are anywhere close to being solved.

FOSTER: Josh Rogin, thank you. Now Alexey Navalny, the prominent Kremlin critic face to judge in a court today, the hearing took place at the penal colony, where he's being held east of Moscow. Navalny is facing new charges of extremism that could extend his prison term by decades.

He's already serving sentences totaling more than 11 years. Matthew Chance joins us now from Moscow with the details. What happened in court, Matthew?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the court was closed in the sense that there was nobody really allowed into the court from outside journalists were sort of corralled into a press center on the grounds of the penal colony, which is about 150 miles or so to the east of Moscow.

And there are lots of complaints not least from the volunteers own political team, defense team that the audio that was streamed into the press room was not, you couldn't hear it wasn't audible and so that was eventually switched off. And so we don't actually know the details of what's been going on now, inside the courtroom.

What we do know is that these are extremely serious new fresh allegations that have been put against Alexey Navalny. He's already serving nine years in prison for various charges, including fraud and contempt of court and things like that. Charges which are, you know, kind of cast as politically motivated by his supporters and by many countries in the West.

[08:05:00]

If he's found guilty as is likely for these new charges of fueling extremism, starting an extremist organization financing extremism things like that it could see his sentence extended by up to 30 years. And so these are extremely serious charges. And it's yet another sign of how tough the crackdown has become by the Kremlin against its critics, particularly in the past year and a half or so, since the invasion of Ukraine, Max.

FOSTER: OK, Matthew in Moscow, thank you. So now to Ukraine and what appears to be a new strategy by Moscow to gain the battlefield advantage. Russia claims a Ukrainian stronghold was destroyed by a remotely controlled tank packed with explosives. This dramatic drone video was taken from pro-Russian media and posted online.

But it's unclear whether the explosion was the result of Ukrainian attempt to destroy the tank. Meanwhile, Kyiv says its forces have recaptured eight settlements in two weeks as intense fighting continues along that southern and eastern front line. CNN's Ben Wedeman joins me live from Zaporizhzhia, Ukraine. What do you make of this video of the tank, Ben?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly it represents something of a new tactic used by Russian forces. Now the details are that they were using a T-54 tank, that's a tank that went into production just after World War Two. Now, it wasn't really remotely controlled by the account put out by the Russian Defense Ministry on its telegram channel.

It appears that one of the tank operators basically somehow managed to press the accelerator down and jump out of the tank, as he aimed it in the direction of the Ukrainian lines. Now, according to this Russian Defense Ministry account, it contained around -- 5 or more tons of explosives, it appears that the tank hits a mine that also was hit by an RPG.

So it didn't actually reach the Ukrainian lines. It was perhaps according to the account of the foreign of the Defense Ministry about 300 meters away. So it was a huge explosion. No question about that. But it's not clear to what extent it actually punctured the Ukrainian lines.

Now in the past, I believe back in February, the Russians use a similar tactic but not using the tank, but rather another sort of military vehicle. So it certainly is dramatic, Max, but it's questionable how effective this tactic actually is.

FOSTER: OK, Ben, in Zaporizhzhia thank you. Fierce firefighters erupted in the West Bank on Monday after Israeli Military forces raided the City of Jenin in pursuit of wanted suspects. The Palestinian Ministry of Health says 4 Palestinians were killed and dozens wounded. Israel says seven of its troops but injured.

Israeli Air Force attack helicopters open fire to help Israeli troops get out of the city for the first time in years. CNN's Hadas Gold joins us from Jerusalem with more on this developing story in that you know the sound for that firefighter, very dramatic.

HADAS GOLD, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Yes, pretty fierce fighting today, Max, was started as an arrest rate really escalated into something much bigger that most notably, it showed an increase in sort of an alarming escalation of the weaponry used on both sides. This took place started taking place because as far as you know, this situation is ongoing in the early hours of in Jenin in the occupied West Bank.

Now, we've often talked about Jenin, this is a hotspot for not only militant activity, but also for Israeli Military raids. But what happened today is something quite a bit different. What we know so far in terms of casualty counts, is actually just got updated numbers from the Palestinian Ministry of Health that is five Palestinians have been killed.

And something like 60 others was wounded, 7 Israeli forces were wounded, and these have all happened during incredibly heavy clashes. Now, notably is the use of an IED that appear to have blown up right as an Israeli Military vehicle, a panther command vehicle was driving by believe.

We do have some video showing this IED blowing up right as his vehicle went by, and according to the IDF, this essentially took the underside off of their vehicle and is the reason for some of those Israeli injuries. The IDF also saying, that other of their vehicles came under heavy fire.

And at least five of their vehicles were rendered inoperable and several of their soldiers remained in Jenin needing extraction for several hours. Now we do know in terms of the Palestinians killed of those five killed at least two have been claimed by Islamic Jihad as their fighters. And several militant groups have said that their fighters were involved in what happened today.

[08:10:00]

But among the dead is a 15 year old boy and dozens of others were injured amongst them a girl who was critically injured. Again we have at least 60 injuries among them also we're hearing of a freelance photo journalist who was also injured during this operation, also from the Israelis for the first time in what's being saved since the Second Intifada.

So this is the early 2000s and Israeli Apache helicopter was used to fire to provide cover as they were trying to extract soldiers and we're also seeing dramatic video of this helicopter firing. Now the IDF says that they fire towards open areas to try and provide cover for the soldiers to get out of the area.

But again, to use a helicopter using live fire in a situation like, this. This has not been seen in more than two decades here and that gives you an idea of the escalating situation here. So we have IEDs, roadside IEDs being used on one side, Apache helicopters being used on another. And as far as we know, Max, this situation, this firefight is still ongoing as we speak, Max.

FOSTER: OK, Hadas thank you. Pakistan's government says more than 300 of its citizens are amongst the victims of that migrant boat disaster off the coast of Greece last week. The U.N. says about 750 people were on the Pak's boat when it capsized. Pakistan has declared Monday a national day of mourning.

The Prime Minister is also setting up a high level committee to investigate the tragedy. Hundreds of people gathered in Hong Kong on Sunday to pay their respects to Abby Choi, the 28 year old mother of four rose to fame as a model and online influencer. She went missing in February and her dismembered body was eventually found by police sparking outrage amongst her fans.

Choi's ex-husband and several of his family members face murder charges over her death. Still to come, the last time a U.S. Secretary of State set foot in China. President Trump was in the White House things have got improved or haven't improved really that much sense. So is it time for a thought?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FOSTER: The language is diplomatic just listen to the carefully chosen words critical juncture, candid discussion, cooperation or conflict. But the worlds can't hide the deep unease between the United States and China the downward spiral of suspicion.

As we mentioned earlier, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken held high level talks with President Xi Jinping and China's top diplomat Wang Yi just hours ago. Here's what Secretary Blinken had to say about broaching international topics like Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLINKEN: During those meetings, we had a robust conversation about regional and global challenges. That includes Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine. Are we ready that we would welcome China playing a constructive role, along with other nations to work toward a just peace based on the principles of the United Nation's Charter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[08:15:00]

FOSTER: As Blinken prepares to depart the question that's at the forefront for an Internet National observer is quite simple can the U.S. and China patch up their relationship. Joining me from Washington is our CNN Chief U.S. Security Correspondent, Jim Sciutto. Jim, you've just returned from Taiwan. So this surely was one of the big talking points there.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF U.S. SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: No question. Listen, Taiwan is clearly at the very center of this relationship between the U.S. and China. Taiwan itself takes the threat of military action they're very seriously that they are carrying out exercises virtually every day to prepare for that.

I witnessed some of them on the Penghu islands in the middle of the Taiwan Strait preparing for a Chinese airborne assault as I was watching there. But at the same time, the Taiwanese Military, Taiwanese officials do not want to provoke China. They don't want this conflict to escalate.

And there is some concern expressed privately among Taiwanese officials and others about Taiwan getting caught in between those superpowers, as you've seen in China, and to some degree here in Washington, some one-upmanship in terms of being tougher than the next person, on your rhetoric directed between Washington and Beijing.

So there is concern in Taiwan about escalation that is out of their hands. Now, it is good that the U.S. and China are talking now to have a senior, the most senior U.S. diplomat visiting and meeting with the Chinese leader and others there. And they certainly discuss Taiwan and other issues.

But they didn't come away with all that either side wanted you of Chinese officials, accusing U.S. of an erroneous understanding that their words of the situation in the region. And you had Secretary Blinken just a short time ago, criticizing China for what he called provocative actions in the Taiwan Strait.

So it's good that they're talking no question. I think all sides believe that. But those talks show there's still great distance between the sides, certainly on the issue of Taiwan and several other issues between them.

FOSTER: How do they balance issues like Taiwan where there's very little flexibility on either side with economics, which is where they certainly want to work together?

SCIUTTO: No question. And you did have Secretary Blinken for instance make the point that the U.S. is not interested in decoupling from the Chinese economy. There's been some talk of that in recent years. But this phrase de risking has come to mind. And from the U.S. perspective, that means restricting trade, in dual use technologies.

Technologies that the U.S. considers crucial to national security, but allowing all this other trade that the both the U.S. and Chinese economies depend on. And I should note the Taiwanese economy and the Japanese economy, South Korea and other partners that are trading with China, to the tune of many billions of dollars every day.

So that issue is key and by the way, the economics issue factors into the Taiwan issue as well, because both sides are conscious that if that were to go to a war, particularly a war between the superpowers, there'd be enormous economic damage, certainly to Taiwan, but also to China, and also to the U.S.

So they're talking and you heard the Chinese side say, there's a choice now between confrontation and a relationship here. So they're at a crossroads, you might say with the danger of heading in dangerous directions, on Taiwan and other issues in between them, including close encounters between U.S. and Chinese Military assets in the region.

The fact that they're talking now presents an opportunity to keep those trend lines from worsening, but I will say one thing the U.S. did want to come away with from this meeting that they did not get and that is direct military to military communications. That scene is particularly, key because as you have these close calls a Chinese jet coming close to a U.S. surveillance aircraft a few weeks ago.

A Chinese warship cutting in front of a U.S. destroyer, the Taiwan Strait just a couple of weeks ago, that those military to military communications essential to prevent escalation something small, becoming something bigger so listen certainly a long way to go here.

FOSTER: And just briefly, what you read into the fact that we were only had this meeting confirmed about an hour before was a risk. It wasn't going to happen. What was going on there do you think?

SCIUTTO: The meeting with Xi, I think there was expectation that this was certainly the U.S. desire, and probably the desire of Chinese officials as well, because the Chinese President wouldn't have taken that meeting, if they didn't want to have that sort of level of contact.

But I've covered a lot of these meetings, as I know you have in the past, both between the U.S. and China, U.S. and Russia, other countries, there's always a little bit of gamesmanship involved. There was some discussion about the U.S. Secretary of State being met at the door or met inside for his meetings, for instance, with the Chinese Foreign Minister.

And there is some message sending that happens here. And some of the Chinese rhetoric was frankly, part of that message sending. The President Xi, prior to his meeting with Blinken, as they were sitting down there, put the onus on the U.S. to improve relations. So they're talking but the substance of those talks in the style of the talks as well conveyed.

[08:20:00]

There's still a great deal of difficulty between these two countries.

FOSTER: Absolutely, Jim, really appreciate you joining us thank you.

SCIUTTO: Thank you.

FOSTER: Our Chief U.S. Security Correspondent. Now hundreds of bodies have been found in mass graves in Kenya as authorities under the horror behind so many deaths. David McKenzie has the latest on the Kenya starvation cult investigation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) FOSTER: Hundreds of bodies have been found in a Kenyan forest since late April in a tale of horror that has shocked the world. The leader of a religious cult is accused of brainwashing his followers to starve themselves and their family members. Many of the victims are young children.

CNN's David McKenzie spoke with families affected by the group's practices. Warning you his report contains disturbing material that you may find hard to watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): He called it the wilderness luring his flock to a remote corner of Kenya. We've come to try and understand how over many months so many could die. In the Shakahola forest, the data is still being found.

Forensic teams carefully removed the remains of members of a Christian death cult from shallow graves. They've already unearthed more than 300 people, many of them children, many showing signs of starvation.

FRANCIS WANJE, FATHER OF CULT MEMBER: It's painful, it is so painful. It was so painful, this is my daughter.

MCKENZIE (voice over): Francis Wanje says his daughter and son in law both abandoned good jobs and took their children to the forest cult. What happened next is hard to comprehend.

WANJE: In which we die at meet Jesus. And they have to start with the children.

MCKENZIE (on camera): The members of the cult including your own family, they were starving the children.

WANJE: Yes.

MCKENZIE (on camera): And then when the children didn't die quickly enough.

WANJE: To suffocate them.

MCKENZIE (on camera): They suffocate them.

WANJE: They suffocate them. Yes.

MCKENZIE (on camera): And this is your own blood.

WANJE: And I wonder where my children or my child, my daughter could change to be such an animal, a wild animal to kill her on children.

MCKENZIE (voice over): Pastor Paul Mackenzie began his cult in Malindi.

MCKENZIE (on camera): This is the church where Pastor Mackenzie had a huge following in his. MCKENZIE (voice over): He amplified his message online. He preached a doomsday prophecy for at least a decade, calling on the faithful to reject modern society, pull children from school and avoid hospitals. He demanded total devotion. You must deny yourself you must reject yourself.

You must reach a point of ending your life he says for the sake of Jesus. His anti-government stance got him arrested and detained but never prosecuted. In 2019, the church was closed down. Later the pastor started his forest community. We found a former cult member in Malindi. We agreed to hide her identity for her own safety. She escaped the forest last year.

MCKENZIE (on camera): Why did you move your whole home and all your children and move into the forest?

[08:25:00]

MCKENZIE (voice over): The pastor used to call me she says, he was calling me telling me, my daughter you are being left behind and when the Ark is closed it will be too late. So I decided to go when the COVID pandemic hit. She says many saw it as evidence that the prophecies were real.

Mackenzie charged her family $80 for a piece of land in Galilee. There were seven other biblically named settlements in Shakahola with more than 1000 followers she says. Still cult members made regular trips to a nearby village for food and water. In December, those trips suddenly stopped says the --

The starvation had begun, he says they alerted authorities but they didn't even after hungry children started escaping to the village. It's been called the Shakahola massacre has shocked this nation. Pastor Mackenzie and his closest followers are being held under terror laws.

MCKENZIE (on camera): What happened in the forest with your followers?

PAUL NTHENGE MACKENZIE, CULT LEADER: I can tell nothing about that, because I've been in custody for two months. So I don't know what is going outside there. Have you been there?

MCKENZIE (voice over): Francis Wanje says there needs to be justice. He mounted a rescue mission to get his grandchildren out. When they found his grandson, Ephram (ph), he was close to salvation. His two brothers were already dead.

WANJE: He went through hell. I'm telling in fact, when he was rescued, he told him that if -- maybe a bit late already fund me had already gone to see Jesus because the grief is there.

MCKENZIE (voice over): The very highest levels of the Kenyan government have apologized for their inaction and the pain it is caused. The scale of what happened in the forest is still being understood. Hundreds are still missing and many more mass graves need to be exhumed. David McKenzie, CNN Malindi Kenya. (END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: Thanks for joining me here on CNN "Newsroom", I'm Max Foster in London. "World Sport" with Amanda is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:30:00]