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Looming Doubt In Russia As Insurrection Ends; Rep. Jason Crow (D-CO) Is Interviewed About The Insurrection In Russia; U.S. Coast Guard Focusing On Salvage Operations On The Submersible Tragedy; Brutal Heat Wave Blankets Southern U.S.; House GOP Reframing January 6 Insurrection; Update On The Search For Actor Julian Sands Missing After Hiking In California; Federal Reserve To Raise Rates This Year. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired June 25, 2023 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: You're live in the "CNN Newsroom." I'm Jim Acosta in Washington. Good evening. In Russia today, armed insurrectionists are no longer marching toward Moscow, but the threat to a weakened Putin regime remains.

Meantime, the U.S., as well as its allies and enemies are closely watching a country that barely pulled back from the brink of chaos. There is no word on where Yevgeny Prigozhin is, the head of the ruthless mercenaries. The Wagner Group abruptly turned around his troops when they were just 125 miles within the capital. Russia said Prigozhin would not be prosecuted and instead would be exiled. Prigozhin's news service tells CNN that he will answer questions when he has, quote, "proper communication."

(VIDEO PLAYING)

You might remember these stunning scenes as fighters were greeted as heroes in some towns for confronting a government, they feel has abandoned them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DMITRY, RESIDENT OF ROSTOV REGION (through translation): There are very serious problems in the country and they need to be solved. People who can no longer tolerate it, they resort to such radical methods as Prigozhin.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: It is the most serious threat to Vladimir Putin in his 23 years in power. And Secretary of State Antony Blinken tells CNN today that he does not think the turmoil is over just yet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: It's too soon to tell exactly where this is going to go and I suspect that this is a moving picture and we haven't seen the last act yet. But we can say this, first of all, what we've seen is extraordinary and I think you see cracks emerge that weren't there before.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Let's begin at the White House with CNN's Arlette Saenz. Arlette, we know President Biden spoke today with Ukraine's President Zelensky. What can you tell us about that conversation?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, President Biden spoke with Ukrainian President Zelensky from Camp David where he is spending the weekend. The White House said that the two men not only discussed the United States continued support for Ukraine, but also those recent events in Russia, a reference to the rebellion, the short-lived rebellion that occurred a bit earlier this weekend by that mercenary Wagner Group against Russian defense forces.

Now, one big question as this rebellion took place and in the aftermath of it, is what kind of impact it will have on the war in Ukraine. Yesterday, the president also convened a call with top allies including the leaders of France, the United Kingdom and Germany. And one thing that officials said that came from that call was this desire to try to keep the temperature low and allow these events in Russia to play out. They don't want to give any fodder or any suggestion that the United States or its allies are supporting this rebellion.

But so far, we really have seen this quiet, very measured strategy from the White House. We have yet to hear from President Biden directly, but a bit earlier today we did get the first reaction from the administration, which came from Secretary of State Antony Blinken. He said that these events unfolding in Russia were extraordinary, but also argued that it shows that there are some cracks in Vladimir Putin's hold on power in the country. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLINKEN: This is just an added chapter to a very, very bad book that Putin has written for Russia. But what's so striking about it is it's internal. The fact that you have from within someone directly questioning Putin's authority, directly questioning the premises that upon which he launched this aggression against Ukraine. That in and of itself is something very, very powerful. It adds cracks. Where those go? When they get there? Too soon to say, but it clearly raises new questions that Putin has to deal with.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAENZ: So, one thing that Blinken and officials here at the White House have stressed is that this is a constantly evolving situation. And going forward, officials will try to assess what kind of impact this will have, not just on the war in Ukraine, but also on Vladimir Putin's larger grip on power and whether there is any weakening of it due to this rebellion. ACOSTA: All right, Arlette Saenz, thank you very much. One official

tells CNN that the U.S. expected a lot more bloodshed in Russia during yesterday's expected confrontation between Wagner mercenaries and Russia's professional military. But although Yevgeny Prigozhin called off his mutiny, much remains uncertain and Russia remains on edge.

[17:04:59]

CNN's Matthew Chance is in Moscow where it has been a wild weekend. Matthew?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, on the face of it tonight, it seems like a Russian crisis has been averted. Rebel Wagner fighters have been dispersed, and the Kremlin is back in control of areas that were simply taken over by the mercenary group. But amid the relief that more bloodshed was avoided, there's also anxiety about what this unprecedented challenge to Vladimir Putin's authority may unleash.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHANCE (voice-over): For the Kremlin, these are some of the most disturbing scenes from a weekend of shocking images. On the streets of a major Russian city, Rostov-on-Don in the south, residents cheered Wagner fighters as they withdrew. Many Russians see them as heroes, not as the traitors the Kremlin paints them.

And Wagner's leader, Yevgeny Prigozhin, has become a celebrity too. Watch his supporters hail down his car just to shake hands. The Kremlin says he's now moving to Belarus next door, but it's unclear if this is the last, we'll see of him. What is definite though, is a sense of relief, at least here in the Russian capital.

(On camera): It's calm now, but in the mayhem of the weekend, Moscow was on high alert. Military checkpoints on the outskirts of the city, residents bracing for Wagner fighters to enter, and for the confrontation that never came.

(Voice-over): It was really uneasy yesterday, says Andrei (ph). But look now, people are walking in the streets and it's all good. Let's hope it'll stay peaceful, he adds.

But even here, this sympathy for Prigozhin's unprecedented challenge, his tirades against the conduct of the war in Ukraine, appears to have struck a popular chord. I think it was an expression of an opinion, says Oleg, another resident of Moscow, an opinion of a powerful person who wants some justice and clarity, the belief Prigozhin should be listened to is widely shared here.

But that's not what the Kremlin wants to hear. Vladimir Putin hasn't appeared in public since making his angry pledge on Saturday, film behind the scenes by state television, to punish those responsible for what he called an armed mutiny, the biggest challenge to his authority in 23 years of power.

But now that challenge has been made, there are growing concerns about what a defensive President Putin, stung by the events of this weekend, will do next to stay in power.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHANCE: Well, another question tonight is where is mercenary leader Yevgeny Prigozhin? As we know, the Kremlin says he's agreed to move to Belarus. But officials there tell me they have no details on when he will arrive or what his status will eventually be. Prigozhin's office isn't saying much either telling CNN that he's currently out of contact and will respond to any questions only later. Jim, back to you.

ACOSTA: All right, Matthew Chance in Moscow, thank you very much. CNN's chief diplomatic editor, Nic Robertson, joins us now with more from London. So Nic, we'll talk about Prigozhin in just a moment, what Matthew was just saying there, but how weakened is Vladimir Putin to the larger question in Matthew's piece after this extraordinary weekend?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CHIEF DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yeah, he is weaker, but I think when you try to analyze what has played out here actually over the last few months, you can understand why there's been a power struggle in Putin's inner circle with his most trusted people. His defense minister and Prigozhin have been at the forefront of it. It started off a few months ago where Prigozhin is saying that the defense minister was shorting him on ammunition.

But fast forward to a week or so ago, and it becomes clear that what's happening here is the defense minister, Shoigu, wants to take over Prigozhin's Wagner mercenaries. He wants them to sign up under the authority of the military. But what does that actually mean? Well, that means Prigozhin is going to lose out on some of the profits, the massive profits he's been making out of this mercenary group that's doing huge work for Putin in Africa, in Mali, in Libya, in the Central African Republic, in Sudan as well.

So, here it is a power struggle over money. But what has Prigozhin been doing in this power struggle? He's been using the most damaging narrative against Putin possible, saying that the country shouldn't be fighting the war, that the military is squandering the lives of Russians. And this is exactly the thing that's resonating with people on the streets. You heard that in Matthew's story there.

[17:10:00]

People are saying they are concerned about the way the war is being fought, and Prigozhin's had a point. So, double trouble for Putin. He's got this in-fight with his most trusted people and he's got a narrative escaping on the streets that he doesn't really want. And worse, he's mishandled it. So, this has come out in the public and people have actually been really scared. So, when we try to figure out how damaged is he, none of those things help and the public sees it and that makes him weak going forward.

ACOSTA: Right. And what about Prigozhin and his whereabouts? He hasn't been seen since he called off this insurrection, allegedly went to Belarus, although we don't -- I guess, have a confirmation of that. How concerning is that? It could mean a couple of different things. I suppose one might be that perhaps he's not there. The other, I guess you have to ask the question about his safety and well-being.

ROBERTSON: You do. And I guess, you know, again, if we go back into what happened and why it happened and how it happened, then that kind of like you can -- I think you can use that to analyze what he's doing or what he's thinking or where his strengths and weaknesses might be right now. And as I said, he's been this foreign policy tool of Putin for some time, you know, behind the scenes, cutting deals on diamonds and gold and making alliances in Libya and being this foreign policy arm of the Kremlin that's been out there and is still there in Syria, in Libya, in Sudan, in Central African Republic.

So, what does that mean? It means Prigozhin's still got some leverage over Putin. How else would, in the morning, Putin be saying that this is treasonous what Prigozhin was doing, and he'll pay a price. But by the evening, Prigozhin seems to have won out and be the only guy so far who's ever really been able to stand up to Putin, call him out.

Putin hates this when people aren't loyal. How is it Prigozhin gets away with this? So, I think Prigozhin knows he's got some leverage in his hands, but he also knows he's going to be exposed. So, the idea that he won't stand next to an open window or he'll have somebody taste his soup, that kind of makes sense. But I think the idea for right now is Prigozhin doesn't let anyone know where he is for a while yet until he feels safe and secure.

How many of his troops, how many of his close supporters can he bring? How much of his military hardware? How's Lukashenko going to treat him when he gets into -- when he gets into Belarus? All these questions will be open questions in his mind. He's got to make himself safe and then use the other leverages that he still believes he has that has been working with Putin. No doubt he's trying to back channel to Putin, although Putin's track record is when somebody has done what Prigozhin's done, is to cast them to the wind.

ACOSTA: Yeah, it'll be very interesting to hear what Prigozhin has to say next. It's going to tell us a lot about what we're going to be seeing in the days to come. Nic Robertson, thank you very much. Really appreciate it. Joining us now is Congressman Jason Crow. He's a Democratic member of the House Armed Services Committee. And Congressman, thanks for being with us.

Yesterday, you noted that there's no way Vladimir Putin emerges unscathed from this. I suppose that is true. But Putin remains in power. So, what happens next?

REP. JASON CROW (D-CO): Well, there's no doubt that this has damage Vladimir Putin. So much of what Vladimir Putin is about is the projection of power. He wants to keep confidence of those around him. He's somebody who does not engender loyalty so much as he gets people to be afraid of him, and he's very transactional, right?

So that's starting to fall apart. We see the cracks in that. We've actually seen the cracks in that over the last 18 months with the war in Ukraine. And Prigozhin has done tremendous damage to Vladimir Putin. So, what we need to do is take (inaudible) a couple of things. Number one, what is the stability within Russia right now and whether or not there's going to be other challenges to him in the months ahead.

Number two, the Wagner Group, as was indicated on your show a little while ago, has arms throughout the entire world, some very dangerous parts of the world in Africa and the Middle East. So, does this destabilize those regions that rely on those mercenaries, some strongmen and autocrats in some areas that rely on those mercenaries for stability of their regimes? So, we have to keep a close eye on the international impact of this.

ACOSTA: And Congressman, if Putin's power, if he continues to see that hold on power destabilize in Russia, do you think that there needs to be at least the beginning of a conversation in Washington about what happens after Putin? Do you have any sense that your colleagues up on Capitol Hill, that the administration, that the allies of the United States have a firm grasp on what to do if Putin is suddenly no longer in power in Russia?

CROW: Well, there's no doubt that we've been having those conversations already. I've been pushing some of those conversations, both with the administration, my friends in Congress, but as well civil society and free press organizations. The challenge is, is that Putin has done such an effective job of completely controlling the media, pushing out, killing or jailing any opposition.

[17:15:03]

But many of the people who would actually form the basis of an opposition movement have fled Russia. Over a million Russians have actually fled Russia over the last 18 months since the war kicked off. Others, you know, continue to take refuge in places around the world. So, we're going to have to think about how do we engage with that diaspora? How do we engage with resistance folks, opposition folks outside of Russia? What does a free press look like? How can we promote that within Russia? It's very complicated. Putin has not made it easy.

ACOSTA: And this insurrection attempt seemed to start with Prigozhin openly questioning the Kremlin's rationale for the war in Ukraine. I mean, as we were hearing from Matthew Chance and Nick Robertson a few moments ago, I mean, that in and of itself is pretty extraordinary. I guess a couple of questions on that. One would be, do you think Russia can win this war in Ukraine without Prigozhin and the Wagner Group?

CROW: Well, I'm not sure Russian could win the war in Ukraine with Prigozhin and the Wagner Group. Let's not remember the last three months saw some of the hardest fighting in Bakhmut in the south and the east. And it was actually the Wagner group that held the line, barely, barely holding the line against the Ukrainian military. That's before the Ukrainians kicked off their counter offensive and put into action the nine new combat brigades that we helped train, that we've equipped with modern Western technology, NATO weapons.

So, that organization is off the battlefield, at least for now. And Prigozhin, who is one of the most effective combat leaders for the Russians, is definitely off the battlefield. So, they're in a really tough spot. The Ukrainians know how to capitalize off of that. We've actually seen in the last two days an increase in offensive activity because the Ukrainians see a window of opportunity here, and they're certainly capitalizing off of it.

ACOSTA: And we know that the White House president, they've been trying to avoid getting too involved, I guess, speaking out on all of this, while all of this is, you know, rather hot over there in Russia right now. I suppose to not give the impression that the United States has been somehow helping Prigozhin or trying to destabilize the situation there. But in the days ahead, should the president get more engaged, tell Putin now is the time to give up what he's doing in Ukraine and get out?

CROW: Well, we've been sending that message pretty loudly and clearly since day one of this invasion, actually since before day one, we sent a very strong message to Russia. We knew they were going to invade before they did. And we said, this is going to be a huge mistake. It's going to cost you. And of course, we were right. One thing that the administration has been doing, and it's time to, I think, double down on those efforts, is starting to engage with countries that have either stayed neutral or maybe have aligned more with Russia.

There is a vast swath of countries that just haven't been critical of Vladimir Putin, they kind of hedge their bets here, determining what side to pick. And if anything is really clear after the last 24 or 48 hours, and that is Russia is not a reliable partner. They have no strength. They have no ability to come to anyone's aid. They barely are able to keep their own government intact and the security of their own people in whole.

They're not going to be a reliable partner that the United States, that democracies are more reliable, stable partners and that case is very evident right now, so we should be making that everywhere and anywhere we can.

ACOSTA: And after 23 years of Putin, I mean, this has been kind of extraordinary to watch over the last 24 to 48 hours. It sounds like ordinary Russians are just getting fed up and they don't mind telling the press about it, telling the public about it. Let's listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DMITRY, ROSTOV REGION RESIDENT (through translation): There are very serious problems in the country and they need to be solved. People who can no longer tolerate it, they resort to such radical methods as Prigozhin.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: You know, just ordinary Russians describing a Putin regime as essentially intolerable. I mean, can you reflect on how remarkable it is to hear ordinary Russians speaking out like this? And it kind of reminds me of what, you know, took place in the late 80s and early 90s where, you know, all of a sudden, the Soviet Union collapsed very quickly. I mean, things in Russia can happen very quickly. We've seen that before. Do you get the sense that perhaps things are moving in that direction? Once again, we might see one of those generational changes in Russia soon.

CROW: You could. I mean, things do happen in Russia historically very fast, right? It seems like nothing's going to change. There are not going to be any cracks in the ice until everything changes very quickly. But, you know, we've known this for a long time about Vladimir Putin. He's somebody who is focused solely on the destruction of the United States and on NATO. And he believes that the collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest tragedy of the 20th century.

He could care less about delivering health care to the Russian people. He could care less about developing a strong middle class. And, you know, that will only last you so long. People are hurting. They're suffering in Russia. He's not delivering for the Russian people.

[17:19:54]

And on top of that, he's put them through terrible atrocities by sending young, largely young Russian men, convicts, people from the poor rural areas into the meat grinder of Ukraine. I mean, we're talking about tens of thousands, largely young Russian men, convicts, people from the poor rural areas into the meat grinder of I mean, we're talking about tens of thousands killed, over 100,000 wounded.

He's sending his recruiters, as he calls them, out on the streets and actually kidnapping Russians and doing mandatory press gains into service, and he's taking people out of prison. So, he's a terrible person, and the Russians are seeing that more and more as time goes on.

ACOSTA: All right, Congressman Jason Crow, thanks very much for your time. We appreciate it.

CROW: Thank you.

ACOSTA: All right. Investigators are now examining voice recordings and text messages connected to that sub that imploded near the wreck of the Titanic. What they were looking for next on the "CNN Newsroom."

Plus, the massive heat wave across the southeast when the region might get a break from temperatures above 100 degrees. It's very uncomfortable down in Texas right now.

And later, January 6th deniers. Look at the conspiracy theory. Some members of the far right are spreading, and the impact that could have on the 2024 presidential Stay tuned for that as well. You're live in the "CNN Newsroom."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:25:00]

ACOSTA: The U.S. Coast Guard says it's conducting the highest level of investigation possible into the catastrophic loss of the Titan submersible. All its efforts are focused on salvage operations using a remote vehicle to collect debris. This comes exactly one week after the private sub imploded in the deep waters of the North Atlantic Ocean, some 1,600 feet from the bow of the Titanic, killing all five passengers on board.

A press conference with the U.S. Coast Guard just wrapped up a short time ago, and CNN's Gloria Pazmino joins us from St. Johns, Newfoundland with more details. Gloria, what did the Coast Guard say?

GLORIA PAZMINO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, this Marine Board of Investigation, as you mentioned, this is the highest level of investigation that the Coast Guard can conduct regarding any sort of maritime incident. And what this will do is allow the Coast Guard to level all of its resources including working with international partners.

Now there is a process to this, and right now we are in the first step of the process, which is the evidence collection phase. There is a remote operating vehicle that's been out at sea looking at the bottom of the ocean floor, the Odysseus 6000. This is a remote operating vehicle that first found the initial pieces of the vessel and it's still out there looking for more.

Now, once that part of the process is completed, once they're done gathering the evidence, the board is going to hold a public hearing and gather more testimony, gather more evidence as part of this investigation. Listen to officials here talking about what's next in the process.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JASON NEUBAUER, CHIEF INVESTIGATOR, U.S. COAST GUARD: During the course of the MBI, the board will first and primarily work to determine the cause of this marine casualty and the five associated deaths. The MBI, however, is also responsible for accountability aspects of the incident, and it can make recommendations to the proper authorities to pursue civil or criminal sanctions as necessary.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PAZMINO: Now, any sort of subsequent enforcement would be done by another -- under a separate investigation and there is one less important point here, Jim, that the Marine Board of Investigation is going to work with French, U.K. and U.S. agencies which of course reflects the nationalities of the people who were on board the Titan, the five people who died as a result of this implosion.

So, you can see a real international effort to try and bring some closure to these families. In fact, the rear admiral mentioned that he had traveled right here to St. John's to meet with some of those family members. They will issue a report once this investigation is concluded. And the point here is to improve the safety operations for these marine excursions. Jim?

ACOSTA: All right, Gloria Pazmino, thanks very much for that update. More than 50 million Americans are enduring a brutal heat wave right now with high heat alerts in effect from New Mexico to Tennessee. Texas and Louisiana are getting blasted especially hard with temperatures feeling as hot as 120 degrees in some areas. The latest forecast showed no end in sight. Allison Chinchar is in the CNN Weather Center with more.

ALLISON CHINHAR, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Roughly a dozen states are already under either heat advisories or excessive heat warnings. And in some instances, these are likely going to last for several days. That's because for some of these areas, they don't even peak temperature rise until Tuesday or even Wednesday of the upcoming week. Take for example Houston going from 101 for the high on Monday up to 103 by Wednesday. Dallas going from 102 on Monday to 107 by the time we get to the middle portion of the upcoming week.

And for many of these areas, even though they peak, they really don't drop back down by the end of the week. Take Austin, for example, the average high this time of year is 94. We are going to spend every single one of the next seven days with those high temperatures getting into the triple digits. And we're looking at over 35 cities breaking record temperatures at some point this week, between Monday and Friday. Some of those communities possibly even having two or three days in a row of record-breaking temperatures.

It's also not just the temperature we're concerned about, but also when you factor in that humidity that we call the feels like temperature. And in some of these areas, you're talking extremely high numbers. Corpus Christi getting that feels like temperature all the way up to 110 on Tuesday. Dallas looking at a feel like temperature Tuesday of up to 114 degrees.

Really, the only areas that are likely not going to see much of this heat, especially in the eastern half of the country is going to be places like the Midwest, the Northeast and the mid-Atlantic.

[17:30:02]

And the reason for that is you have a lot of these showers and thunderstorms that will be moving into the area. Because of it, also the potential for some severe storms especially for cities like New York, Washington D.C., stretching down through Atlanta. The main threats there will be damaging winds and the potential for some large hail as well.

ACOSTA: All right, Allison Chinchar, thank you very much. The attempted insurrection in Russia is over, but where does it leave Russia's war in Ukraine? We'll break it down for you next with CNN military analyst Colonel Cedric Leighton. There he is right there. We'll talk to him in just a few moments. You're live in the "CNN Newsroom."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:35:00]

ACOSTA: Sixteen months after Russian troops tried to topple the government of Ukraine, it's the Russian government that has faced the greater threat and at the hands of Russian mercenaries. But while the chaos inside Russia may have eased for now, what does it all mean for Russia's war in Ukraine? Let's bring in our CNN military analyst and retired Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton. Colonel Leighton, great to see you.

For Russian troops seeing heavy casualties in a war that grinds on, what do you think this insurrection attempt has done to morale just for the Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine. It can't be good.

CEDRIC LEIGHTON, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: No, it certainly isn't, Jim. And, you know, when you look at morale, that's one of those intangibles that is so important in warfare. And you compare what the Russian military is going through from that standpoint, from the morale standpoint, and what the Ukrainians are doing. The Ukrainians, generally speaking, have very high morale. The Russians, on the other hand, very low morale based on, you know, the anecdotal reports and what we're seeing in terms of performance in the field.

So, it makes a huge difference. Even if there is a secure (inaudible) systems and numbers, you know, personnel and things like that, it really makes a huge difference. And that's why, you know, the Russians are having such a hard time, I think, in Ukraine.

ACOSTA: And Colonel Leighton, the Kremlin says Wagner mercenaries can join Russia's military. I mean, does that sound like something that those mercenaries are going to want to do? I mean, they might be thinking it should be the other way around based on the performance on the battlefield?

LEIGHTON: Absolutely. You look at performance on the battlefield, the one group that really seems to have made a difference in favor of the Russians has been the Wagner Group. And the way in which they're trying to handle this insurrection and the essence paper over things by putting Wagner Group members into the Russian military is going to be really detrimental, I think, in the long run for the Russian military.

On the one hand, the mercenaries will probably gain a lot of respect from the personnel in the regular army of Russia. But on the other hand, they're also known for their very brutal methods. They're going to enforce discipline in a way that they're really not used to, even though the Russian military is very brutal in that regard as well.

So, it's going to, I think, cause a lot of friction at the tactical level and unit cohesion, which is very important in warfare, is something that is definitely going to be lost. They really don't have it now. It's going to get even worse with the additional Wagner troops, if they actually do show up in the regular army.

ACOSTA: And can Russia win without Prigozhin and his troops? I mean, that's another question.

LEIGHTON: I don't think they can. You know, and I know that, you know, you spoke with Congressman Crow about this as well. And, you know, it was -- it's interesting. I think both of us look at it in a similar fashion. We see the Russian effort as being pretty much hamstrung on so many different levels, whether it's logistics, whether it's munitions, you know, things like that.

And I think you don't get the kind of feeling that you get with the, say from the Ukrainian army when you compare them with the Russians. The Russians are looking at this, I think, in a way that is really not good for their war effort, but I don't think they can win without Prigozhin and gets they're going to, you know, hamper the Wagner Group. It's going to make a big difference in a negative way on the battlefield.

ACOSTA: And let's talk about the counteroffensive. A short time ago, we learned that Ukraine is claiming to have made military gains around Bakhmut. Colonel Leighton, you and I and so many others have talked about the situation in Bakhmut. I mean, it's kind of ironic that is where Wagner was effective. How significant would that be if the Ukrainians were starting to make some gains there?

LEIGHTON: It would be huge. You know, Bakhmut has become a symbol. It's kind of like the Alamo in Texas. It's one of those places where a stand was made and the Ukrainians look at it as, you know, a place where they made a difference even though they lost the town eventually.

But the key thing would be for the Ukrainians to take that town, that would then really puncture the myth of not only of the Russians that they've been foisting on their own population, but actually also of the Wagner Group because the Wagner Group was the one group that was really responsible for the taking of that town, but it took them a couple long time, over 10 months to actually do this.

And they weren't very good at it really, just very brutal at it, to kind of, you know, using that beat group or approach. And that, I think, is something that, you know, will show that what they've been doing has really been an effort that has expended way more lives than it needed to.

[17:40:03]

ACOSTA: All right, Colonel Cedric Leighton, we will be watching that situation as all of this development -- develops over the next several days. Thanks very much for your time. We really appreciate it.

In the meantime, some conservative lawmakers are promoting bizarre conspiracy theories about the January 6th Capitol riot. Next, why one author says it's dangerous to write them off as a quote, "lunatic fringe." You're live at the "CNN Newsroom."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ACOSTA: A group of far-right House Republicans recently held an unofficial hearing on the January 6th insurrection that attempted to rewrite the history of the attack on the Capitol. Witnesses included January 6th defendants, conspiracy theorists, and Jeffrey Clark, one of the officials within the Justice Department, pushing to pursue unfounded claims of voter fraud in the weeks after the 2020 election.

[17:44:57] Our next guest, who uncovered the hearing -- who covered the hearing for the "New York Times" writes, "The 30-minute event was a through- the-looking-glass alternative to the damning case against the former president, but it's quickly becoming a central issue in presidential politics. And "New York Times Magazine's" Robert Draper joins us now. Robert, it's a great piece. I'm just curious, when you were at that hearing, what was it like being in the room and listening to what they were saying?

ROBERT DRAPER, WRITER, NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE: It was like being in an upside-down world. I mean, it's -- you know -- and also, Jim, they're narratives shape shift, you know, even within a matter of seconds, you know, either the January 6th, what took place there was basically peaceful or it was violent but it was an Antifa kind of violence or it was set up by the FBI, thus a feds erection.

And so, it's a little maddening to keep up with all this, but basically their point of view is that they are politically persecuted. There's a two-tier system of justice, but it's not to say well-off whites versus people of color. It's the ruling class versus Trump supporters.

ACOSTA: And it's easy to dismiss this as a fringe right-wing movement, but it sounds like you think that's a mistake.

DRAPER: I do think it's a mistake. Look, they are much like the far right that really controls the action in the House of Representatives. They're the tail that wags the dog in terms of the fact that 58 percent of Republicans now believe that the phrase peaceful demonstration much more aptly describes what took place on January the 6th than violent insurrection.

For that matter, the two frontrunner -- well, the two leading candidates for the Republican nomination, Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis, both have indicated that they might give pardons to January 6 defendants.

ACOSTA: Right.

DRAPER: So, there is definitely a -- they are definitely shaping that narrative regardless of what one thinks of their views, they've attained a certain significance.

ACOSTA: And it appears, I mean, this is just baked in now. The former president and his allies have supporters who are just not willing to listen to reality. And I'm just curious, I mean, many of them see these January 6th defendants as the victims, even if you show them the video from January 6th that day, even if you show them the injuries that were sustained by Michael Fanon and Harry Dunn, Sergeant Ganell, so many of the others that we've had on this program and others. They just -- they won't listen to reality. They just don't think that --

DRAPER: They don't because --

ACOSTA: -- those injuries were sustained. DRAPER: Well, because it fits into a greater narrative of persecution

that a lot of Trump supporters feel both about themselves and about the former president.

ACOSTA: But I guess I'm just wondering, you know, do you say to them, hey, what about this video? What about all that violence?

DRAPER: You can try, but then they'll say --

ACOSTA: -- because this doesn't --

DRAPER: -- they'll say that video's been -- that video has been, you know, tampered with. I've got a video that beats your video.

ACOSTA: Yeah.

DRAPER: That video is very, very skewed. You're just talking about one area. I mean, there's essentially, again, their excuses shape shift, but overall, the narrative remains the same, which is that, you know, what President Trump says goes and what he says was that was a peaceful, loving protest.

ACOSTA: And what does this say about the upcoming campaign?

DRAPER: Well, I mean, I think that there are establishment Republicans that hope like hell that this particular subject does not get discussed. They think it's not good for the party, not good for business because the general electorate recognizes what the video has shown us, that it was a violent insurrection.

But in the primaries, I think that Donald Trump is going to be pushing this narrative as much as he can. And I think Ron DeSantis and others will find some way to draft onto it. If they don't totally buy into it, they'll at least say, well, you know, the Democrats are being hypocrites. They didn't penalize Black Lives Matter and Antifa demonstrators in the summer of 2020. They'll engage in some kind of what-aboutism.

ACOSTA: Yeah. And if Trump or these other candidates in the Republican field don't kowtow, I mean, I think that's one of the other takeaways from your story. Don't kowtow to these beliefs, these conspiracy theories, they're just not going to get a lot of traction with the base.

DRAPER: That's, you know, that's what --

ACOSTA: And are these folks the base?

DRAPER: Yes, yes. That's what we've been seeing overall, Jim. I mean, they're the most politically active, the loudest voices in the room. The Republican grassroots are people who believe that January the 6th was, take your pick, either inspired by Antifa or the feds or was nonviolent and that in any event, the people who are behind bars right now shouldn't be there.

ACOSTA: All right, Robert Draper, you've given us a lot to think about and ponder as we head into this campaign cycle. Thanks very much, Robert. I really appreciate it. All right.

And new developments in the search for missing actor Julian Sands. He disappeared while hiking in January. That story is next here in the "CNN Newsroom." Stay with us.

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[17:50:00]

ACOSTA: We have a new development this evening in the search for British actor Julian Sands. Human remains were found in Southern California near the remote area where Sands disappeared while hiking this past January. The search for the missing actor focused mostly on the Mount Baldy area north of Los Angeles. That's where civilian hikers discovered human remains on Saturday. Positive identification is expected next week.

The 65-year-old Sands is best known for his television roles as the villain in the fifth season of "24" as well as Superman's father, Jor- El in Smallville.

In economic news today, the chairman of the Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell, is warning higher interest rates may be coming perhaps before the end of the year. Here's CNN's Christine Romans with this "Before the Bell" report.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Jim, higher interest rates ahead. That is the message from the Fed chief. It means higher borrowing costs for mortgages, credit cards and auto loans as the Fed and global central banks fight inflation.

[17:55:03]

A renewed focus on that global fight humbled stock markets last week. Now, there has been good news on inflation in the U.S. Gas prices are down dramatically from last year. Consumer inflation is about half of what it was last year, 4 percent in the U.S. But inflation rates in the U.S. and around the world are still too high for central bankers' comfort. That's why it will be a busy week for reading the tea leaves on the economy.

Consumer confidence, home sales, the final read of first quarter GDP, and consumer sentiment are all on deck, ending with the PCE price index, the Fed's favorite inflation gauge, that comes on Friday. Jim?

ACOSTA: Thanks, Christine. The attempted uprising in Russia is over for now, but there are still a lot of questions about Vladimir Putin's future and his war in Ukraine. The latest is just ahead. You're live in the "CNN Newsroom."

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