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Supreme Court Rules against Biden Administration Policy of Forgiving Student Loan Debt; Former Education Secretary Under President Obama Arne Duncan Interviewed on Supreme Court Ruling on Student Debt Forgiveness and Affirmative Action; Reporting Indicates Former President Trump Called Then Arizona Governor Doug Ducey Asking Him to Overturn State Results of 2020 Presidential Election. Aired 10- 11a ET

Aired July 01, 2023 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMARA WALKER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning to you. It is Saturday, July 1st, the official halfway mark of the year, Victor, as he has been repeating this morning.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: I'm feeling it. I'm feeling it.

WALKER: He's feeling it. I'm Amara Walker.

BLACKWELL: I'm Victor Blackwell. Good to be with you. You are in the CNN Newsroom.

President Biden has laid out plan b to provide student loan relief to millions of borrowers. The Supreme Court ended its term yesterday with two highly controversial rulings. One was seen as a major setback for gay rights.

WALKER: The other blocked President Biden's plan to forgive billions in student loans. The ruling came as a blow to the millions of Americans who had been counting on it. The program aimed to forgive up to $20,000 in relief to those struggling with outstanding debt. CNN White House reporter Jasmine Wright joining us now with more. So Jasmine, what do we know about this alternate plan that President Biden is laying out?

JASMINE WRIGHT, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Amara, President Biden made it clear yesterday that he believed that the Supreme Court misinterpreted the Constitution when they struck down his signature student debt forgiveness program. And frankly, he believes that they got it wrong. So President Biden said that while Friday's decision closes one path, he is going to seek another.

Now, that new path is grounded in the Higher Education Act of 1965, a different law that the White House believes provides President Biden with authority to do that widespread student debt cancellation that he has promised as a campaign promise. But they say that it will take a long time. It will take months, really, to get it off the ground, and they wouldn't say whether or not the 40 million estimated to be impacted by the struck down law would also be impacted by this new path.

Still though, in the interim, for President Biden to get this new pathway off the ground, he says that he is doing two things. First of all, when it comes to repayment, he is going to focus on income-based repayments. And then secondly, he is going to provide a 12-month onramp repayment program, as you see on your screen here. That is really designed to give borrowers the ability to be reacclimated to paying down their student debt.

It is expected to start again in October. And while interest will incur over the 12-month program, the theory that is if you miss a payment or you're not able to pay, you will not be penalized, you will not be sent to default, and your credit will not be impacted for that 12-month grace period.

Another thing, though, that we saw President Biden do on Friday is he really slammed this growing Republican talking point that it was actually him who misstated what his ability and what his authority would be to actually provide that widespread debt relief. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I didn't give any false hope. The question was whether or not I would do even more than was requested. What I did I felt was appropriate, and able to be done, and would get done. I didn't give borrowers false hope. But the Republicans snatched away the hope that they were given, and it's real. Real hope.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WRIGHT: Now, Amara and Victor, that last line for President Biden saying that Republicans snatched away real hope of Americans, that is going to be important going forward, because he believes that Republicans snatched away that hope and it made voters and borrowers downright angry, and he is going to hope to harness that anger about the Supreme Court's decision and also other Supreme Court decisions made in the last week as he marches into the 2024 reelection season really trying to say that Republicans are trying strip away individual rights, and that is why Americans should put him in office for one more term. Victor, Amara?

BLACKWELL: Jasmine Wright for us at the White House, thank you so much.

Joining me is Arne Duncan, former education secretary under President Obama. Mr. Secretary, thank you for joining us. Let's start with what we learned from Jasmine there, go over this Higher Education Act of 1965, which gives the secretary of education authority to compromise, waive, or release any right, title, claim, lien, or demand. Do you think the White House has a better shot of canceling student debt through this law than they did through the Heroes Act?

ARNE DUNCAN, FORMER EDUCATION SECRETARY UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA: I think obviously we have to pursue every possible avenue. And it is just heartbreaking, though, let's be very, very clear, the Supreme Court delivered two gut punches to the American people this week by not allowing that debt for over 40 million people to be reduced, and also what they did around Affirmative Action. And so President Biden has no choice. He's got to look at every possible path, every avenue to provide that debt relief. But what happened to the American public this week, there's no upside there. Everybody loses.

[10:05:02]

BLACKWELL: I want to talk about Affirmative Action in just a moment. But one more here on cancellation of student debt. There were some Democrats who told the president upfront that if you wanted to do this to use the Higher Education Act of 1965 and do not go through the Heroes Act. Of course, we all know that former Speaker Pelosi said that she didn't believe the president had this authority through the Heroes Act. Do you think it was a mistake to use the Heroes Act to try to forgive the $400 billion worth of student loan debt?

DUNCAN: I don't think it was a mistake, and just let me give you two very concrete reasons why this is so important to happen, and there are many hundreds of reasons. But first, as you know, we have a massive black-white wealth gap in this country. White families have six, seven, eight times as much money as black families. And we know because black families have less resources, they take out more debt. So going forward, the cost of going to college, that debt actually exacerbates the divide between black and white families. It is very unfair.

The second thing, as you know, is we have a massive teacher shortage that is going to get worse as we move forward, particularly as so many teachers retiring due to age and due to the challenges of the pandemic. Teaching, as you know, is not a lucrative profession. Many young people want to go into teaching, that's where their heart, that's where their passion is, but they can't afford that debt. Had we relieved that debt, that would have given them more hope. But with that option going away for now, that has a really chilling effect on young people thinking about going into education.

So we're really cutting off our nose to spite our face here. I just truly don't understand it.

BLACKWELL: Let's turn to what you call the second punch from the Supreme Court this week, and that is ending race as a consideration in admissions to colleges and universities. They didn't outlaw trying to reach diversity at these universities, but they say that schools need to move to race neutral standards.

Are you having difficulty hearing me? Now we got a frozen shot here. Secretary Duncan, you got me now? All right, so we'll try to figure that out. If we can get the secretary back up, then we'll, of course, continue the conversation, just when we're getting to the Affirmative Action portion. But if we cannot, our thanks to former Secretary of Education Arne Duncan.

WALKER: Turning now to another story new this morning, according to "The Washington Post," in late 2020, former President Trump called then Arizona Governor Doug Ducey in an attempt to pressure him in overturning the state's presidential election results. Citing multiple people familiar with the call, the former president claimed if enough fraudulent votes were found it would overcome his narrow loss in the state. "The Post" also reporting that Trump repeatedly asked then Vice President Mike Pence to pressure Ducey as well into helping him stay in power.

Of course, Governor Ducey did not go through with that plan and certified President Biden's win in Arizona.

Here with me now is "Washington Post" investigative reporter Josh Dawsey. Josh, good morning to you. Thank you so much for joining us here. So tell us more about what you learned, because there has been so much focus on that one call in January of 2021 when Trump called the Georgia secretary of state, but now we know about another phone call that Trump apparently made. Who did you talk to for the story, and what do we know about the details of the call?

JOSH DAWSEY, POLITICAL INVESTIGATIONS REPORTER, "THE WASHINGTON POST": We know in that frenzied period right after the election, former President Trump was trying to pressure officials in multiple states to go along with his false claims that the election was stolen, Brad Raffensperger in Georgia being the most famous of those calls.

But there was a campaign against Governor Ducey in Arizona that was pretty elaborate, actually. At the time Governor Ducey certified the results, if you remember, and the former president wasn't happy. He called him and laid out a whole range of unsubstantiated fraud theories and then asked Mike Pence to call several times as well to try to convince him to go along with his effort to overthrow the 2020 election.

Governor Ducey did not do that. And if you remember, former President Trump was quite nasty to him on Twitter and on social media, and live on television, called him all sorts of names and attacking his integrity.

WALKER: And what do we know about Mike Pence's role in this?

DAWSEY: So what we know is the former President Trump asked Mike Pence to keep calling Governor Ducey to look for evidence. Pence and Ducey have a close relationship, knew each other before the White House, and Mike Pence made several calls to the governor of Arizona asking him, do we have any fraud, have you found anything? And every time, Governor Ducey said no, and then Mike Pence went back to former President Trump and reported that he was not going to overturn the election in Arizona, the governor wasn't.

WALKER: So do we know if Special Counsel Jack Smith who is looking into Trump's alleged interference in the 2020 election, if he is looking into this specific call that Trump made to the then Arizona governor?

[10:10:12]

DAWSEY: We know that he's been asking witnesses about various calls to state officials, like we reported in the story. We don't know if Governor Ducey has had any sort of outreach from the special counsel's office himself. But one of the things that the special counsel's office has repeatedly asked witnesses for is any evidence of former President Trump pressuring folks, governors, lawmakers, and others, to overturn the election in 2020.

WALKER: You know what I found interesting, too, in your reporting is that this phone call from Trump to then Governor Ducey came during a live stream throughout the state in the middle of him signing these documents certifying Biden's win in the state.

DAWSEY: Governor Ducey didn't answer that phone call, to be clear. He called him back later. He called as the governor was on live stream at a podium about to sign Biden's win. Obviously, the former president did not want him to do that, to call during that time.

WALKER: And you also report that according to one Republican donor, Ducey did talk to him about the, quote-unquote, pressure that he was under from Trump.

DAWSEY: Yes, Governor Ducey never publicly outlined what was said in this call, but since he left office, he has been telling donors, political associates, people that he meets with about the sort of elaborate campaign. And he said to his donor over in Arizona earlier this year that he was surprised the special counsel's office has not reached out to him yet, and that the pressure campaign from the former president was pretty extensive.

WALKER: Really appreciate your reporting and you coming on, Josh Dawsey, thank you.

BLACKWELL: Holiday weekend is here. Millions of people are hitting the roads and going to airports. But severe weather could impact travel. If you're still planning to get to your destination, we've got the forecast, next.

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[10:16:12]

BLACKWELL: Secretary of Education under President Obama Arne Duncan is back with us now. We have fixed the technical issue. We were just getting to the Affirmative Action decision from the Supreme Court this week. They've set this goal, this requirement, standard, I should say, of race neutral admissions when considering applicants. What does that mean practically?

DUNCAN: Well, obviously, you can look at other things, you can look at adversity and challenges that folks have faced growing up, you can look at whether you're coming from a low-income family, first generation family. But I never want to be cynical, but the fact, as you know, they carved out the military academy to make them an exception, somehow saying that diversity matters in the military, but making no acknowledgment that diversity matters in our corporations, in our board rooms, in our law offices, in our hospitals, in our classrooms. Diversity makes all of us better. So to carve out that small exception to what they're saying, for me, just undermines any theoretical credibility they might have and makes no sense whatsoever.

BLACKWELL: So we have a hint at least, or a foreshadow of what this means. California in 1996, through the adoption of Prop 209, they ended Affirmative Action in public universities and colleges. There was a study completed in 2020, and I want to read some of the findings here. There is from the University of California system, they conducted the study. "Underrepresented minorities applicants became at least 40 percent less likely to be admitted to U.C.'s more selective Berkeley and UCLA campuses. The average underrepresented minority U.C. applicant, wages declined by five percent annually between ages 24 and 34. And by the mid-2010s, there was a cumulative decline in the number of early career underrepresented minorities Californians overall earning $100,000 by at least three percent."

So when we see the impact of these policies, extrapolate from those what this means on a national scale for us societally.

DUNCAN: We can't afford to let that happen again, and so we have to fight that in terms of how we recruit from populations that may be more disconnected and underrepresented. We have to challenge universities to do that.

Let me sort of step back, bigger picture, why this is so ludicrous and so disheartening. If you look at the percent of black students at Harvard or Yale or Princeton, it's like, six, seven, eight percent. These are small numbers. But we have had Affirmative Action for a long time, it has just been for the white and wealthy. And if you look at the universities and you look at the number of admits due to legacy, family members who have gone there, or relationships to donors, those numbers are much higher.

So if you were really trying to challenge, quote-unquote, privilege, a level playing field, that's the fight you would have taken on, not the small percent of black students. And then if you look at some of the major state flagship universities, particularly go down south, the University of Tennessee, the University of Alabama, the University of Mississippi, those states are 25, 30, 35 percent African American, but those flagship universities, the population of black students is often eight, nine, 10 percent, vastly underrepresented.

So if you really wanted to challenge unfairness and privilege, that is where you would have gone. Instead, the Supreme Court took on the most vulnerable population. And again, it is not just about more diversity for African Americans, that diversity makes all of us better, makes our businesses better, makes our schools better, makes our law firms better, makes our hospitals better. And that's only possible, that's only possible if the doors of the universities remain open for all.

[10:20:01]

BLACKWELL: Former Secretary of Education under President Obama Arne Duncan, thank you.

WALKER: Holiday weekend travel is in full swing this morning, and AAA expects 50 million Americans to travel on the road or in the skies through Wednesday. Now, if you're traveling by car, we do have some good news for you at the pump. The average gas price is now $3.50, which is $1 cheaper than prices at this time last year.

If you are flying this weekend, make sure to get to the airport early. You can see those long lines, and they've been forming already this morning at Atlanta's Hartsfield-Jackson airport. So far today, over 1,000 flights have been delayed across the country, but only 100 have been ultimately canceled. As for the weather, it is a mixed bag, from extreme heat with feels-like temperatures reaching 115 degrees, to severe weather producing hail and each some tornadoes.

CNN meteorologist Allison Chinchar is joining us now to break down the biggest risks this morning. Allison, yes, tell us what we need to know.

ALLISON CHINCHAR, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes, so right now we have got some rain that is making its way through the Midwest, as we speak. Storms already now occurring. This is a live look at Cincinnati. You can see the heavy rain coming down on this camera. Temperature right now about 74. But here's the thing, there's going to be two rounds of rain coming through much of the Midwest today. Here's that first cluster, again, raining in Indianapolis, Cincinnati, making its way through Fort Wayne. You also have other areas where we have some showers and thunderstorms popping up, Mississippi, Texas, even areas of the Carolinas.

And then the secondary wave will move through later on this afternoon. And we have another potential for some strong to severe storms, damaging winds, large hail, even a few tornadoes possible anywhere you see these colors on the map. Also that secondary area located on the back portion of Texas, western Texas and eastern New Mexico.

Here's the first round. The second round very much right behind it, this afternoon and into the evening. Then when we push forward into Sunday, the bulk of that begins to spread into the mid-Atlantic, the northeast, but we also have more showers and thunderstorms across the southeast as well. So a lot of areas here. If you're dealing with travel, you are likely going to experience some delays, mostly on the roads, but even in the air you could start to see some delays and cancellations, especially as those severe thunderstorms fire up.

Two separate areas here dealing with heat, we're talking about excessive heat warnings and heat advisories across much of the south, especially the Gulf Coast region, and then to the west. We also have some pretty expansive heat starting to take shape there.

Across the Gulf Coast, again most of these temperatures still hot, but we're starting to see light at the end of the tunnel having them come down. Dallas today, still in the triple digits, but finally back down into only double digits for the rest of the week.

We'll get there too for New Orleans and Mobile, but likely going to take an extra day or two before we see that drop. The opposite is going to happen out into the west where the numbers are just going to keep going up. Salt Lake, Las Vegas, those numbers going back into the mid-110s, over the next few day and likely to stay there this week.

WALKER: All right, Allison Chinchar, thank you. BLACKWELL: The TSA projects that it will screen more than 17.7 million

people over the long holiday weekend. CNN's Gloria Pazmino joins us now from Newark Airport in New Jersey. We checked in a little earlier today, maybe people are up, getting a little later in the morning flight. How is it looking around you?

GLORIA PAZMINO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, if you want to avoid problems, certainly the experts recommend getting to the airport as early as possible. And some of the passengers I've been speaking to have done exactly that. This is Newark Airport, one of the busiest in the entire country, and also a hub for United Airlines which has had a really hard time recovering after all of though massive delays and cancellations from last week.

Now, more about United Airlines in just a minute. First, let's talk about what we are expecting. You guys mentioned it at the top, AAA estimated at least 50 million people will take to the roads and travel by air during this busy holiday weekend. By the time it is all said and done, the TSA estimates they will have screened 17 million passengers. Now, I spoke to some of those passengers here this morning, they have told me despite last week's meltdowns, so far things are going well for them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REBECCA ANDERSON, TRAVELING TO CHICAGO: We're here about three hours early, and then it was delayed 45 minutes. So I think we're in good timing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Delayed. It's delayed about 30 minutes.

MATTHEW GYORGY, TRAVELING FROM DENVER: Zero problems whatsoever. I've seen a bunch of stuff on social media, people in airports for days. But no, I got lucky.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PAZMINO: So Victor, Amara, perhaps it's because it's still early in the day that people are still in a good mood, things haven't quite melted down just yet. But let's talk about United Airlines, as I mentioned. They have really struggled to recover after last week. Weather delays, staffing shortages caused a lot of cancellations and delays and left passengers stranded, all around the country.

[10:25:01]

Now, as of last night, they were still dealing with at least 1,300 delays and 251 cancellations. And adding insult to injury here, the CEO of United Airlines forced to issue an apology to customers and his employees after it was revealed that he flew on a private jet from Teterboro Airport, which is not far from where we are right now, as that meltdown was unfolding right here at Newark Airport. He issued the following statement, saying in part, "Taking a private jet was the wrong decision because it was insensitive to our customers who were waiting to get home. I sincerely apologize to our customers and our team members who have been working around the clock for several days, often through severe weather, to take care of our customers."

So certainly not the optics that United Airlines was hoping for. Here you have thousands of passengers stranded, lost luggage, people trying to get to where they're going, and a CEO flying on a private jet, not what you want to see. But so far, it appears like what is expected to be a record-breaking weekend is off to a good start. Victor, Amara?

WALKER: Hope it ends well as well. Gloria Pazmino, thank you.

BLACKWELL: July 1st means hundreds if not thousands of new laws passed early this year across the country go into effect today.

WALKER: Well, among the new laws that could start being enforced today, prohibiting marriage licenses for kids in Connecticut and making it easier to sue firearms manufacturers in California. CNN's Isabel Rosales joining us now with more. So Isabel, some major changes nationwide, especially in Florida where the GOP-controlled legislature has pushed through bills that are really big wins for Governor Ron DeSantis.

ISABEL ROSALES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They certainly are, that legislature delivering bill after bill, over 200 of them to the governor for him to sign off on. And these bills have certainly gained even national attention. Some of them have been the focus of lawsuits. Supporters say that these laws make Florida safer and that they protect justice and individual rights. But critics, they're arguing that this is actually attacking already marginalized communities.

So let's check out three major laws, starting with immigration. This is Senate bill 1718, Governor DeSantis signing a sweeping crackdown designed to curb illegal immigration. So companies that have 25 employees or more are now required to use e-verify, that's a federal software, to check the immigration status of new employees. This law also repeals, allowing undocumented people to become attorneys. Also driving, impacting out on the roads, undocumented people are no longer allowed to drive in Florida, even if they have a license from a different state allowing that. Hospitals, too, now required to ask about immigration status on admissions forms.

And we've seen protests across the state for the last couple of weeks about this particular bill, 1718, now law, critics arguing that this is going to take a toll on the economy of Florida, specifically Florida's agricultural, construction, and hospitality industries.

Let's move on now to guns, permit-less carry. This is House bill 543. A permit is no longer required to take a concealed weapon, carry a concealed weapon, in public. It also ends current Florida requirement undergoing training before carrying a concealed weapon outside of the home.

However, this is not open carry. And we've seen sheriffs across the state including Bob Gualtieri in Pinellas County, putting out PSAs, warning people about fact and fiction when it comes to this law. It is still illegal to carry a gun in gun-free zones. This includes courthouses, police stations, schools, and polling places. And finally, let's talk about a series of new restrictions that's

impacting the LGBTQ community, starting with gender affirming treatment for minors. Gender affirming treatments, including hormone blockers, and sex reassignment surgery now prohibited for transgender minors.

Bathrooms also impacted. You now have to, in Florida, use the bathroom that matches not your identity, but rather you must use the bathroom matching your sex assigned at birth.

Pronouns also being signed off here into law. Which pronouns are used in school? They must match the sex assigned to you, that's part of your birth certificate, so it's not -- no longer the choice of the teachers, staff members, or the students.

And finally, drag shows, this is something that you've been covering here in the state of Florida. No minors allowed in adult live performances. Many critics have said that this is a target on drag shows. We've recently seen with that a federal judge blocking, temporarily blocking that law. It is now under -- undergoing court in a lawsuit.

Now many advocates are saying that these laws are really an attack on the LGBTQ community, attempting to erase them from not only schools but society in general in Florida.

[10:30:02]

WALKER: Important information. Thank you so much, Isabel Rosales.

Protests break out for a fourth night in France after a fatal shooting of a teenager sparks outrage. We're going to have the latest from Paris, next.

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BLACKWELL: Hundreds of people gathered outside a mosque in France for the funeral of a 17-year-old boy killed by police after a traffic stop.

WALKER: The somber scene there is in stark contrast to the violent protests that have gripped France. The interior ministry says more than 1,300 people have been detained in four nights of unrest. CNN international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson joining us now. Hi, Nic. What is the latest?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Well, what you're seeing here, we're in the center of Nanterre, not far from where Nahel's funeral is happening. You've got firefighters here dealing with a small fire that broke out in the bushes back there in the center of the city here.

[10:35:03]

No one is really clear what happened, what started the fire. We got on it pretty quickly. We happened to be in the neighborhood. The first security forces to arrive were the military, they secured the area, kept people back, firefighters got on the scene, police have showed up. It is a very, very small incident here.

But the fact that the response from the military was so fast, the firefighters on the scene so quickly, shows you just how concerned security services here are about tensions in the neighborhood. And of course, all around this area, over the past few nights, you've had shops burned, train stations burned, cars burned. So everyone here in the security services is on high alert.

Across the country last night, however, there was less violence than the previous night. There were police, less police injured. The police had more armored vehicles. So the overall trend Thursday night into Friday night was a reduction in violence, but to give you some of the figures, it was still 1,350 vehicles set on fire, more than 2,560 fires total, 26 town halls attacked, 24 schools attacked. So the numbers are by no means insignificant. So this is still a massive security operation that is going on around the country, and two police officers were shot and injured in Lyon, the central city here in the country, and the government stepped up the security there by sending an elite unit of the police anti-riot squad. So this is the sort of escalating response the government has been talking about.

WALKER: Nic Robertson, appreciate it. Thank you.

The Biden administration is expected to decide soon whether to send controversial cluster munitions to Ukraine. The White House has been reluctant because of the risk they could pose to civilians.

BLACKWELL: But the administration is now seriously considering it as Ukraine's counteroffensive is off to a slow start. CNN national security reporter Natasha Bertrand has details.

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Victor, Amara, CNN has learned that the Biden administration is strongly considering sending controversial cluster munitions to Ukraine as the counteroffensive kind of drags on there with no real notable progress. Now, we are told that this has really intensified over the last several weeks, these conversations about the cluster munitions, because of the battlefield conditions inside Ukraine.

Apparently, according to U.S. official, the Ukrainians have been using a heavy amount of artillery ammunition in order to prosecute their counteroffensive in a way that U.S. officials are unsure whether it's actually sustainable. And so providing them with these cluster munitions could provide a way for Ukraine to keep up that offensive without having to potentially run short of really important ammunition here.

Now, the U.S. has a lot of cluster ammunitions in the stockpiles because it actually started fazing them out in 2016 following an assessment by the U.S. that these could pose a risk to civilians. Essentially what happens with cluster munitions is they explode -- when the cluster munition explodes it scatters bomblets over a large area, and some of those bomblets sometimes don't actually explode. And so they could pose a long-term risk to civilians similar to landmines. And so the administration had not necessarily been considering

strongly over the last several months giving these to Ukraine because they are so controversial, and because, importantly, many U.S. allies, including France, Germany, and the U.K., actually signed onto ban on these cluster munitions, that the Biden administration did not want to seem out of step with allies and so it was reluctant to provide Ukraine with these munitions despite Ukraine asking the administration for several months to provide them.

Now we're told U.S. officials have had extensive conversations with allies about providing these munitions, and they do believe that they have managed to alleviate these allies' concerns in a way that will then allow the U.S. to move forward with providing these very controversial weapons.

But this will really be welcome news to the Ukrainians who, again, have been asking the U.S. for these cluster munitions for quite some time, arguing that they will allow the Ukrainians to target Russian forces and equipment over a very large area, and essentially allow them to break through those fortified Russian defensive lines that they have had so much trouble breaching over the last several weeks of their counteroffensive. Victor, Amara?

BLACKWELL: Natasha, thank you very much.

You want to stick around for this remarkable story. A Louisiana man gets stranded in the Pacific Ocean for weeks after his boat capsizes. He'll join us live to tell us what he did day after day to stay motivated and what he felt when he was finally rescued.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:43:55]

WALKER: Stranded in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, left to fend for himself for over a month against the rough current and circling sharks. Against all odds, Aaron Carotta survived. Known as "Adventure Aaron" on social media, he was attempting to sail around the world when weeks into his journey the battery on his rowboat lost power, and of course, making matters worse, a giant wave capsized his boat, leaving Aaron in a small life raft desperate for help.

BLACKWELL: Days went by. His phone battery was dying. He was running out of clean drinking water and battling the cold temperatures when, thankfully, he was rescued by a passing merchant ship. Here to share more about his story is Aaron Carotta. Aaron, good to see you on land after so long there waiting for rescue.

Start with where I think I would have panicked when I lose battery power on the rowboat. At that time, you obviously didn't know long you would still be out there. Were you nervous? Were you uncertain about what would happen next?

[10:45:04]

AARON CAROTTA, RESCUED FROM PACIFIC OCEAN: For sure. I was on a spiritual pilgrimage at the time, and I was benefiting, doing some philanthropy for humanity, but I realized at that point when I calculated how many days I was going to be rowing in the blind that was about to join the likes of Jesus in the wilderness stories, or David and Goliath, because it was now 40 days on average that I was going to have to go 40 miles a day to reach the next point of land. And at that point I heard the words "be brave." And of course, I'm brave. I'm in a rowboat. But when you think it is your higher being telling you to be brave, you better brace up for it, because it is going to be unlike anything you have been prepared for before, but probably nothing you can't handle, and that's exactly what happened.

WALKER: Aaron, tell us what happened once your rowboat, I think it was 23 feet, it capsized, and then you had this leaky life raft. How did you get it to inflate? And then once you did get it inflated, tell us about the threat of sharks and these huge currents and these waves that you had to face while you were out there.

CAROTTA: Conditions were really actually pretty good, but on day 33, it was a different kind of wind. It was 30 knots. There were, from my understanding, another vessel that went missing that they still, unfortunately, haven't found. But I was making fish and harnessed to the deck, I was catching my breakfast, basically.

And I looked to my right. I felt a presence that was just very different, and it was silent, and the sets of waves had coming at 13, and they increased by the time they got to 13. And this one had to be a 13th one. And the crest, the base of the wave was four meters. And I jumped in the hatch and braced for impact. And unfortunately, my ocean rowboat rolled.

And they do self-right, but I was strapped to the hatch, the deck, and everything went up over and in two seconds, and by that point, it was all survival mode and quick thinking, and I swam out to the side of the boat and saw my roll up side down, bobbing up and down, and at that point when into a mode where, OK, raft, personal beacon, ditch bag, raft, beacon, ditch bag. And that's the things I had to worry about for the next minute.

BLACKWELL: And you are now on this leaky raft. Obviously, you couldn't stay there long. What was the next move? What did you decide next?

CAROTTA: So I assessed the situation, I pulled the panner, which is a line that goes to the raft, it inflates, jumped into that with only my bathing suit and my personal beacon on at the time, and had to make a quick decision to detach from the vessel because if it goes down, it would take the raft with me, and started to assess my new boat. At that point, the waves were strong. I started to realize that I had a few options in this raft. It had water and it had a bailer, and the bailer was really important because now I had a leak in this raft at the time.

And this journey was something that was making use of everything I had to my name at the time. So unfortunately, the secondhand raft worked, but it had a leak, and so I was bailing every five minutes for the remaining 30 hours that I was in the raft. WALKER: It sounds like you were counting the days when you were out

there. Exactly how many days were you out adrift at sea? And how did you keep going? Did you have moments where you're like, OK, I surrender myself, I can't do this anymore?

CAROTTA: Yes, it was day 33, and I promised to God I would go 40 days. And that just gave me something to believe in and test personally. But you get into a routine, and for me, it was really just eat, pray, row. And it actually, it actually was going well, really well. I was on track, but I was missing, and I didn't know that at the time. And if it wasn't for the Facebook group that got together on social media, 3,000 people who were strangers, who came together and worked with the RCC, and just provided different feedback and expert advice, that plane and that ship really would have been in a different position at that time. And I believe that that was the end result is the humanity of strangers ended up actually saving me when it was my effort to save the world and show the humanity of other people. So you never know what your effort is going to do when you lead by action, but it has been pretty good.

BLACKWELL: Well, Aaron Carotta, we are so grateful that you spent time with us and that you were rescued. All the quick thinking that you employed to survive all that time out there, and I'm sure you learned much more than you expected you would when you started this pilgrimage, as you describe it. Aaron Carotta, thank you so much for your time.

[10:50:00]

WALKER: Thank you, Aaron.

BLACKWELL: Coming up, what length would you go to in order to score Taylor Swift tickets? What about merchandise? The story of a fan who took extreme measures to get some swag, next.

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BLACKWELL: So a Taylor Swift fan gives an iconic interview under, beneath a blanket to conceal her identity?

WALKER: I'll tell you why. Because she obviously took time off work, probably didn't tell the boss why she was leaving work for that day, to get her hands on some swag.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are you hoping to snag at the merch truck here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want the gray quarter zip.

[10:55:01]

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, we have one question here. Why are you going gray quarter zip instead of blue crewneck, which seems to be what everyone is after here? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I already have the blue crewneck.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She already has it. So did you go to another show, because it can only be found at the merch truck?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I had to go to another show.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Which one?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nashville, night three.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALKER: OK, this is like inside baseball talk. They're talking about a t-shirt or something?

BLACKWELL: Yes. Apparently these are the styles of t-shirts that are available at the concert.

WALKER: And there's only specific types of shirts available at specific locations or concerts where Taylor Swift has her concerts, I guess.

So thousands camped out in downtown Cincinnati ahead of the grand opening of the Swift merch truck on Friday, some of them waiting in line for 10 hours. Swift has several shows this weekend in the city.

BLACKWELL: There are people waiting 10 hours for their t-shirt.

WALKER: I don't like anyone or anything enough to wait that long. Sorry.

From COVID-19 to the death of George Floyd and the presidential election, 2020 was a year that changed everything. Go inside those memorable 12 months in a new episode of the CNN original series, "The 2010s," tomorrow night here at 9:00 eastern here on CNN.

Thanks for watching, everyone.

BLACKWELL: Much more ahead in the next hour of CNN Newsroom. Fredricka Whitfield up next.

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