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CNN International: Israel: All Forces Out Of Jenin, Operation Over; Rhetoric Ramping Up On Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Plant; Volodymyr Zelenskyy Speaks To CNN; Yellen Heads To China For 3-Day Visit; Japan Plans To Release Treated Wastewater; Powdery Substance Found At White House May Be Cocaine; Britain's King Charles To Receive Scottish Crown. Aired 8-9a ET
Aired July 05, 2023 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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MAX FOSTER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, you're watching CNN Newsroom. I'm Max Foster in London.
Just ahead, thousands gather for a funeral in Jenin today, after the Israeli military said its operation there has ended. More details from the ground in just a moment.
Japan will soon release treated wastewater from the Fukushima nuclear plant into the ocean, sparking much anxiety amongst locals. More from Tokyo on that. And live this hour, King Charles is in Scotland to receive the crown jewels there. We're covering all the pompom pageantry.
Israeli troops have left the occupied West Bank city of Jenin after a massive two-day military incursion, leaving behind immense destruction and damage to critical infrastructure. Palestinian officials say at least 12 people were killed and scores more injured, some of them seriously. Funerals are now underway. And Israel says one of its soldiers was also killed.
The violence, meanwhile, is spreading beyond the sprawling refugee camp. Early on Wednesday, the IDF says it carried out airstrikes in the Gaza Strip after shooting down five rockets fired towards Israeli territory.
CNN's Hadas Gold joins us live from Jerusalem. Where is this operation going, Hadas?
HADAS GOLD, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well, the operation has been declared over by the Israeli military after nearly 48 hours of constant activity. The largest Israeli military operation in the occupied West Bank since the days of the Second Intifada since 2002. But just as those military vehicles were seen leaving Jenin, that's when we got word of those five rockets being fired from Gaza towards Israel. All of them were intercepted, the Israeli military said. The Israeli military responding with what it called targeted airstrikes towards Hamas, weapons manufacturing and rocket launch sites. We have no reports of injuries on either side, and the rest of the night and into this morning was quiet. Much of the attention, of course, has been on Jenin and what happened there.
As you noted, one Israeli soldier was killed during this operation. Twelve Palestinians were killed and more than 100 were injured. Now, Israel, when the death count was at 11, said the Israeli top -- the Israeli military's top spokesman when he was speaking to CNN last night, said that all of those that they believe no non-combatants have been killed. But they have acknowledged that civilians are among the injured.
And in Jenin, there is massive amounts of damage. The roads are completely ripped up from Israeli bulldozers as they were trying to dismantle IEDs. There's damage to houses, cars, hospitals have been damaged as -- hospitals have been damaged as well. In critical infrastructure, the electricity and water was severely damaged, and thousands of residents fled over the past two days to try and to avoid the violence.
So now they are probably making their way back into Jenin to try and assess the damage and start the cleanup. Now, over the past few hours, we have seen videos and images of a mass funeral for the 12 that were killed. They were all going to be buried in a communal grave. And we are seeing militants amongst them, masked with their guns, with their flags from Islamic Jihad and Hamas.
And that goes to show you not only that some of those killed were probably affiliated in some way with militant groups. But no matter what the Israeli military said about their goal being to dismantle Jenin as a safe haven for militants and talking about all the targets that they reached there, there are, of course, still militants in Jenin. And they obviously feel comfortable enough to still go out on the streets full force to show off, essentially, during these funerals.
This is clearly a message being sent by the militants there, that they are still there, that they will still be operating there. So now the question is, where do we go from here? The Israeli military saying that while the operation in Jenin is over, that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is saying it's not a one-time thing, that they will go back if necessary, if they believe they need to dismantle, once again, Jenin as a safe haven for militants.
And then, of course, there is the rest of the occupied West Bank. We saw yesterday the Hamas ramming and stabbing attack in Tel Aviv, targeting Israeli civilians there. There is a question about where we go from here. Will there be more Israeli military operations? Will there be more attacks towards Israelis? This is not over, even though this operation is technically over. Max?
FOSTER: OK, Hadas, back with you when you get more. The rhetoric ramping up around a possible attack on Europe's biggest nuclear power facility. In his nightly address, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said that Russia is the only source of danger to the Zaporizhzhia plant. This, as the Kremlin says, the potential for sabotage by Kyiv. The Kyiv regime is quite high and warned of catastrophic consequences.
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Both Kyiv and Moscow frequently accuse each other of plotting attacks on the nuclear plant. CNN's Scott McLean is with us. It's always difficult to know, you know, if there is some sort of incursion or some sort of attack of some sort. We don't know who's responsible.
SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and the -- obviously, there's not a lot of margin for error here. Any miscalculation, obviously, could have huge consequences, not just for Ukraine, but for Europe more broadly especially. But in this case, President Zelenskyy is making a very specific accusation.
He's saying that Ukrainian intelligence has information that there are objects that look like explosive devices on the top of several power units at Zaporizhzhia, saying essentially that this is a false flag operation or that Russia is looking to blow it up and to blame the Ukrainians essentially.
This is something that the Ukrainian military has said over the last few days as well, saying that any explosion would likely be planned to look like Ukrainian shelling, but wouldn't have enough force to actually damage the actual power units themselves. Last week, Ukraine though, did start preparing for the possibility of some kind of a terror attack on this -- on the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, as you mentioned, the biggest in Europe.
And the Deputy Defense Minister said today that there are four different regions where emergency services are doing these drills in the case of an emergency. The Zaporizhzhia governor on the Ukrainian side has also said that Ukrainian Special Forces are also preparing for this possibility. The Russians, though, obviously, they are denying that there is any kind of threat from the Russian side.
The Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov, though, did acknowledge that the situation is tense, in his words, saying that the chances of Ukrainian sabotage is high and also pointing out the obvious that anything like that would have catastrophic consequences. The Russians also say that measures are being taken.
Now, I think we have a recent satellite image, not the most recent, but one that at least gives you the lay of the land of the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant that we can bring up. So the reactors there, they're built inside containment buildings which are supposed to be able to withstand the force of an accidental plane crash, say experts.
But there's also questions about, you know, the weapons of war and what impact they might have, we just don't know. Also, you'll notice on that satellite images there's these cooling pools there where the spent nuclear rods go after they're used and those are wide out -- right out there out in the open as well. So again, there's a lot of moving pieces here, a lot of -- not a lot of margin for error.
The good news is that nuclear officials on both sides, though, are giving some reassuring words, though, saying that the situation is stable, the situation is normal. The Russian nuclear official calling Zelenskyy's claims, frankly, garbage. Max?
FOSTER: OK. Thank you, Scott.
Now, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy sat down for a wide- ranging, exclusive interview with CNN's Erin Burnett recently in Kyiv. Mr. Zelenskyy says the Russian President's response to the Wagner mutiny led by Yevgeny Prigozhin was weak. Take a listen.
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VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translation): Half of Russia supported Prigozhin. Half of Russia supported Putin. We know from our intelligence reports that Kremlin was conducting all those surveys. 18 or 19 regions of Russia firmly supported Prigozhin's actions. 21 regions of Russia firmly supporting Putin.
Some of the Russian regions were in the balancing in the meantime without knowing for sure who to support. We all see this process that shows half of the Russian population is in serious doubt. All those stories that he controls everything, these are feeble stories now.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: But you're saying half of the Russian regions did not support Putin, would support Prigozhin. So does that mean there will be another challenge to Putin's power? I mean, that's a dramatic split.
ZELENSKYY (through translator): I think that Putin will make attempt to consolidate his society. He will make everything in order to break and nullify the Wagnerites fame and everything they were doing. He will be distancing himself from all that and will be communicating extensively in order to unify the society. His society is ununified.
Pay attention to this interesting example. After all these events, where did Putin go? I can tell you, he rarely comes out to the street. We see him in his offices, et cetera, but we never see him out and about.
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FOSTER: You can watch more of Erin's exclusive interview with President Zelenskyy tonight, 07:00 p.m. Eastern on Erin Burnett OutFront.
U.S. Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen is due to leave Washington today for a high stakes visit to China. The Biden administration is hoping the visit enhances communications between the superpowers, though, Yellen isn't expected to meet with Chinese President Xi Jinping. Yellen's visit comes only days after China imposed export restrictions on two rare metals used in computers and other tech products.
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Let's being CNN's Marc Stewart with more. Yellen, a very experienced, you know, towering figure in Washington. Our hopes high that she'll be able to, you know, put the relations, frankly, back on track.
MARC STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Max, if we listen to what a senior Treasury Department official said earlier this week, the expectation is that there will be no significant breakthroughs. But the fact there is discussion taking place is very significant.
If we look back at the calendar, it was in January of this year we were talking about the shoot down of a Chinese spy balloon over the United States, and then we had basically diplomatic silence. Now, nearly six months later, we have seen a visit from the U.S. Secretary of State and now the Secretary of Treasury.
There is room, though, for discussion, especially on an economic front with the Treasury Secretary. For example, the American business presence in China is significant. We have Apple, we have Tesla that have had a big part of the market there. Apple, in particular, using China as a backdrop for manufacturing.
And then, as we have also been talking about many times, Max, the Chinese economy right now is having some real tough times. China has now brought in a new economist into its economic sphere, someone who has been educated at Harvard and at Cambridge to perhaps bring some new perspective.
So this discussion could perhaps bring to set the stage for even more discussion. This -- Treasury Department official has described this visit as something that'd be very frank. I mean, we could likely hear some discussion about human rights issues that the United States is concerned about. The real question is, will this set the stage for a broader meeting between Chinese leader Xi and President Biden?
FOSTER: Stay with us for a moment, Marc. I want to ask you this about this other story. Japan wanting to dump more than 1 million metric tons of treated radioactive wastewater into the sea from its decimated Fukushima nuclear power plant. On Tuesday, International Nuclear Regulators said it would have a negligible impact on the environment.
You know, they are the experts, but this is such a loaded story, isn't it? What are critics saying about those plans to dump the water?
STEWART: Well, I mean, there are certainly government critics, there are certainly scientists who have some differing views in all of this. But I'm also thinking about our past reporting, talking to fishermen here in Japan who are concerned about the reputation about all of this. There has been reporting in the South Korean press that there are -- has been a run for sea salt because there is fear that there could be contamination from this release.
But scientifically speaking, this impact is seen as negligible. It is a practice that other nuclear facilities around the world have engaged in. So the standard has been set, if you will. This release, though, is not going to be just a one-time event. It's going to be something gradual, Max. It's going to probably take years, even decades to complete.
And the International Atomic Energy Agency knows that the world is watching. They have set up an office, or they will set up an office here in Japan to monitor all of this. And this is really important for Japan because it has to look to the future, especially for energy. The Prime Minister has made it very clear that he feels nuclear energy, despite this past, is going to be part of the nation's future.
So it's important that this be done right. And there's also this emphasis on learning from mistakes from the past, especially looking toward the future, Max.
FOSTER: OK, Marc Stewart, appreciate you joining us. Thank you.
Now, CNN has learned the powdery substance which triggered a temporary evacuation at the White House on Sunday night was possibly cocaine. The Secret Service says after a field test, it will now be sent for further testing and evaluation. The substance was found in a Ziploc bag in a common area -- of a common area of the West Wing and not within an individual office.
Priscilla Alvarez is standing by for us at the White House. What are they making of this there?
PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, the Secret Service says that there is still an ongoing investigation into how this substance entered the White House. Now as you mentioned, an official told CNN that this was a substance that was in a Ziploc bag. It was a powdery substance. It was found in the West Wing in a common area. So not an individual office and also an area that can be accessed by certain private tour groups.
Now, there was also -- sources tell CNN that there was field tests that determined that this was possibly cocaine. Now those tests are not conclusive and the Secret Service says that they are still running their own tests and investigating what exactly this substance is. But certainly a lot of questions not only on what this is in a conclusive matter, but also just how it entered the White House.
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Now as you mentioned, this also prompted an evacuation on Sunday evening. It was a temporary one. And we should also note that over the course of all of this, President Biden was not at the White House. He was at Camp David and he returned to the White House on Tuesday morning.
So still investigations ongoing into all of this. President Biden not present at the White House when it was found. Max?
FOSTER: OK. Priscilla, thank you for joining us.
Still to come, two months after being crowned in England, Charles is getting another set of royal jewels. How Scotland is honoring the monarch coming up.
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FOSTER: Live pictures from Edinburgh in Scotland, where the next -- well, in the next hour, King Charles will be presented with the Scottish crown jewels. Charles and his wife, the Queen, Queen Camilla, were crowned in London, in England, earlier in May. But staying in live tradition, Scotland has its own celebration to mark the coronation of the new monarch.
It'll begin with the People's Procession starting just about now. Hundreds of representatives from various aspects of Scottish life are setting off from Edinburgh Castle to St. Giles' Cathedral, which you can see there. It'll be a service of thanksgiving there for the King. King Charles will be joined by his eldest son Prince William and his wife, the Princess of Wales.
Joining me now, George Gross, he is a Visiting Research Fellow, King's College London, currently conducting a research project into the significance of British royal events, just like this one. You are, of course, in Edinburgh. Thank you for joining us.
GEORGE GROSS, VISITING RESEARCH FELLOW IN THEOLOGY, KING'S COLLEGE LONDON: Good to be with you.
FOSTER: Just explain for people around the world who don't quite understand what's happening here. It's not a coronation, is it, but there is a set of crown jewels which used to belong to an independent kingdom which Charles will receive today.
GROSS: Yes, it's not quite a coronation. Not quite an investiture. It's somewhere between all of these things. These are the oldest regalia in the British Isles. I think that's probably surprising to many of you has given what we saw in May with these remarkable crown jewels of present at Westminster Abbey.
So it's not quite the coronation, but these remarkable ancient medieval survivals, which is the Scottish honors are being presented to the monarch which is echoes or echoes the events of 1953, because Elizabeth II also had a similar event. So it's not quite the same thing, but it's necessary. I think you could not have it given the precedent of 53 and indeed before that 1822 with George IV as well. So it's a precedent, but it's not a coronation.
FOSTER: OK, we're going to be doing much more on this in the next hour. We'll be back with you in just a moment, George.
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We want to cross to Jenin now because Salma is there. This follows the completion, Salma, of that operation in the Jenin refugee camp, the city of Jenin, to clear it effectively. Just take a see what you are seeing.
SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So Max, I first just want to explain why you're looking at me from an overhead shot. That's because there's no infrastructure in this camp. There is currently no running water, no running electricity, no internet. So my cameraman is perched on a balcony while I bring you this (INAUDIBLE).
You'll see that there's already these piles of rubble that have been built up. This is one of the main thoroughfares, one of the main streets here in Jenin camp, a place that was already one of the most impoverished and marginalized corners of the West Bank now facing yet another humanitarian crisis. They've been clearing the rubble.
And families you've seen flowing through here, well, they're getting their first look. Some of them fled when the fighting began, and this is what they're seeing. I mean, just look, three (INAUDIBLE) from the United Nations, we got present other NGO groups here to try to rebuild the infrastructure.
But again, these families are getting their first look at what their homes look like. Some of them -- we spoke to one family that just went in and discovered their home has been completely destroyed and damaged. Take a look at this vehicle. I just want you to look at the force of power that was used in this Israeli raid, the strongest, the most powerful raid in 20 years in the West Bank.
The Israeli military says, of course, that it was targeting terror infrastructure, that it was taking out weapon sites, that it was (INAUDIBLE) haven in Jenin camp. But these families here say that they're simply just caught in the crossfire, Max?
FOSTER: OK, Salma, thank you. We're going to leave it there because of the sound problems, but we'll be back with Salma to get a better sense of that space, which has been, obviously, cleared in that -- as part of that operation.
We'll be right back.
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FOSTER: It's being called the People's Procession. This is about 100 representatives of different parts of Scottish society walking from Edinburgh Castle towards the cathedral there in Edinburgh for a service of thanksgiving, of celebration for King Charles' coronation. He'll be there, and the Prince and Princess of Wales will also be there.
After this procession, you'll see the Scottish Crown Jewels also following from Edinburgh Castle down to the Cathedral.
Joining me is George Gross. These are the oldest crown jewels in the United Kingdom. They go back literally centuries, don't they? It's remarkable they still exist.
GROSS: Yes, it is amazing. They survived the melting down of the English regalia by Oliver Cromwell. So it is a remarkable survival. They were rediscovered by Sir Walter Scott in 1818, hidden in a chest in Edinburgh Castle. So then that was the moment where they were revived, if you want. I think what's also special about today is we will also see the Stone of Destiny. This sacred or symbolic stone of Scotland that will also take part in the ceremony. That's not happened since 1296 when it was taken by Edward I down to London and Westminster Abbey. So, it's combining old, but old and new if you want as well.
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FOSTER: Just explain how we'll see the actual service at the crucial moment where he's presented with this regalia. He's given the crown, isn't he? But it isn't placed on his head?
GROSS: Yes, it's not a crowning. So he'll be given it. There was a slightly nervous moment in 1953 where it looked like the crown was going to wobble off its little purple velvet cushion. But it didn't. So he'll be given it. But not -- he will not wear it. We won't see a moment of crowning as in May. So we won't have that moment.
Each item of the regalia is presented, and of course, we've got this new sword, the Elizabeth Sword, which has its special moment of reference to the late Queen.
FOSTER: It'll be pretty heartening, won't it, for King Charles to see this response. We didn't know how many people were going to come out. It seems really upbeat and positive. It's very important to him, of course, that he's popular in Scotland because he wants to keep the union together.
GROSS: Yes, this event is, it's always a complex event here where you're referencing any items of a particular kingdom within a union. So that's complex, but it's an event that he would have to have done. I think to not do that event would have been very pointed given 1953 and the precedent of previous occasions. And just as there'll be plenty of people out here, and Edinburgh's buzzing and supportive.
So there'll be people who won't be, but that's it. That's the nature of a democracy, and we saw the same in London for the coronation in May.
FOSTER: OK. George, we'll be back with you in just a moment. We are following those events in Scotland. The service due to start, I think, at the top of the hour, but we'll lead up to that.
Bianca is going to join in just a moment.
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FOSTER: Scottish pomp and pageantry wouldn't be the same, would it, without bagpipes and kilts?
BIANCA NOBILO, CNN ANCHOR: And kilts.
FOSTER: This is, I believe, the long mile. This is a procession. We've already seen the people's procession, representatives of different parts of society now, bit of a more military element coming in. This is linking Edinburgh Castle with the cathedral.
NOBILO: I know what you say 12 years, I have appeared.
FOSTER: Bianca is here.
NOBILO: To bring you this momentous occasion.
FOSTER: Because you're quite interested, aren't you? And the fact that holding this event and emphasizing that Scottish element of the United Kingdom.
NOBILO: Well, I think it's so important. Obviously, the monarch is supposed to sit above politics. That's a key part of the role. But it's inescapable in this situation because, of course, there is a push for Scottish independence, and there there is a movement as well of anti-monarchy that we do see in Scotland. But today is the day to try and patch over those differences and see what support on you might get from the Scots themselves.
FOSTER: I think he's going to be feel pretty encouraged by what he's seeing today. He'll be arriving there to Queen, the Prince and Princess of Wales as well. They will form part of the procession. I know some of it will be in the car, but a lot of people out there hoping to catch a glimpse as well, hoping that they'll be walking along it, although I don't think Kate will particularly look forward to walking along those cobbles in heels.
NOBILO: Probably not. Now tell us King does have quite a few connections to Scotland, doesn't he, including where he went to school.
FOSTER: He went to school there, and there's actually going to be a piper from his school that will be walking in on the steps at the Cathedral. So that's Gordonstoun right in the north of Scotland. He wasn't very happy there. He was bullied there, but he went there because his father, Prince Philip sent him there because he had gone there and he believed in the type of teaching that was there.
He's also, you know, Holyrood House is the seat of the British monarch in Edinburgh. So he has a base there in an apartment, and he's actually there on what's called Holyrood Week, which is a week in Scotland, really, spending time with the people of Scotland and showing his commitment to Scotland, and this is ceremony. This moment is really part of that.
He also has a house called -- another house where he's basically refurbished and developed the whole of it. And on the ground, so we're not there with him. It's different representatives, and all his different charities. So his foundation is based there.
So for example, he's got the Agriculture School there. He's got a cookery school. He's got the Prince's Trust, all these different things. So he does go there as much as he can, and he really enjoys it because he likes the outdoors.
NOBILO: And speaking of the outdoors and those agricultural projects, we're just seeing pictures here on the left of the screen of the King at engagements earlier on this week. We saw implanting trees. Not sure exactly where he is there, but he is somewhere in the capital.
FOSTER: Yes --
NOBILO: And making somebody dressed in regalia to match his mother.
FOSTER: Well, so he will -- we will be seeing. Actually, you know, a lot of fuss is made about the crown jewels in the town of London, but actually the ones that are kept at Edinburgh Castle are much older, and they survived that period where Oliver Cromwell was melting down the English crown jewels.
They were hidden away in a castle so the English couldn't get to them. And actually they ended up in Edinburgh Castle, but no 1 really knew where they were. There is the crown. So this crown vanished, I think, for centuries, a couple of centuries. No one knew where it was.
And they found it in a wooden box, an author found it in a wooden box in Edinburgh Castle, and therefore it came back on the scene.
NOBILO: It's just a fantastic legend. I mean, all of these crown jewels and elements of the ceremony are just pregnant with so much history. And, of course, we have the Stone of Destiny as well, don't we, which --
FOSTER: Indeed.
NOBILO: -- we know was brought to Westminster for the coronation that you were anchoring, Max, and -- at the whole day. And now the Stone of Destiny is back in Scotland, and what's the significance and history of that?
FOSTER: Well, it's just the -- I mean, it's slightly lost in time. It's a bit of a mystery. But there it is, and it's very plain looking. But Scottish kings and Queens used to sit on that and be crowned. And then when the crowns merged, it was taken basically by England down to Westminster Abbey, and it was kept there. And it finally went back to Edinburgh, you know, in recent years.
But it's basically represents the Scottish crown. So at the coronation, it was there under the coronation chair, and that was Scotland's representation when King Charles was crowned as king of the United Kingdom. So that's effectively when he was crowned king of Scotland even though that title doesn't exist anymore.
And so that's where the confusion perhaps is for some about today, is he being crowned again? He's not. This is really just a service of Thanksgiving and for him to actually receive the crown.
NOBILO: The lead up to this event, this celebration of the coronation that he's had in Westminster and presenting him with the crown jewels of Scotland. It's been quite understated the lead up. In fact, I'm sure a lot of people would be surprised that it's actually happening today in the United Kingdom. Why is that? Why hasn't it been more widely telegraphed? [08:35:10]
FOSTER: Well, it's slightly, I mean, it's quite interesting where it's all been handled. Normally, the palace would really be on the front foot with this, and they haven't been this time. It's completely been led by the Scottish government, and all of the briefings that I've had have come from the Scottish government. I've been referred to the Scottish government.
So it's very much the Scottish government event, which is interesting because it's a Scottish National Party who are not seen as necessarily -- they're not anti-monarchy, but they're not necessary -- they're certainly not, you know, pro-U.K.
But it's interesting they've chosen to celebrate this. I think perhaps, I'm interesting to hear your thoughts on this, whether it's to say we can be a separate nation but still retain all of the history that comes with the monarchy, which is a shared monarchy.
NOBILO: I think the political winds of allowing the Scottish government to have ownership of this event like you're outlining are clear because you're still celebrating King Charles, but that way it does subdue any potential extra nationalist frustrations because the Scottish government is at the helm and they're organizing it.
FOSTER: And it could be a way of keeping the, you know, pro-U.K. side on board with their independence campaign, although that's not really going anywhere at the moment, is it?
Let's speak to George Gross, he is the expert. He's Visiting Research Fellow at King's College London. He joins us from Edinburgh Youth. Studied the previous version of this, which was the Queen's, do you expect to see a very similar lineup today?
GROSS: I think broadly similar, yes. Obviously, we have the addition. We've been talking about the Stone of Destiny being there, so that's significant. We have a new sword, the Elizabeth Sword. But broadly, it follows some of that pattern. And -- but as you've referenced, again, a more muted buildup, you know, by contrast to the coronation. And that was the same in '53 as well.
Wanting to draw a distinction between the the coronation in in Westminster Abbey and this ceremony of Thanksgiving in Edinburgh. So it's trying to draw the distinction between the two, but but broadly similar. I think there's also a bit of a reference here to the cost of living. I don't think they want to go too far in terms of widening this event. Simply to try and keep that element in check if you want.
FOSTER: I mean, there -- it's been fascinating watching the People's Procession that we saw earlier and representatives of organizations across Scotland. I mean, what do you make of this? Bakers, bonnet makers, candle makers, coopers, cordiners, Clydeview Academy, the Dogs Trust. I mean, it's a very eclectic mix, isn't it?
GROSS: It is. It also, in many ways, is also matching what we experienced in May with the updates to the coronation there for Westminster Abbey with a wide array of music, an emphasis on inclusivity, and sustainability. So I think this is also not just the Scottish government, but the monarch referencing charities that have been supported key players in Scotland.
So, it's part of that, of trying to bring people together. That I think that's the aim of the event which you would -- you're referencing already is to try and bring people together from which ever political side they're on or divide they're on.
NOBILO: And George, help us understand the the context of that attempt to bring people together compared to England. Where does Scotland stand in terms of the sentiment towards the monarchy and King Charles?
GROSS: Polls are really difficult on this, but we know that the Queen was -- and it's early days within a reign. We know the Queen was a hugely popular figure in Scotland. And, of course, the royal family have so many ties here, whether it's Dumfries House that you would talk about with with King Charles or Balmoral.
So the ties are very strong. And this is where monarchs have holiday for so many years. And in many ways, felt more free than than they had done in England. So the ties are very strong. How that reflects going forward? It's somewhat we're guessing at the moment. So this is important moment to gauge for the monarchy, how this event goes down and the reception of that.
FOSTER: We're just crossing here to Edinburgh Castle. This is where the crown jewels of Scotland are kept. You can see the crown there coming out on the Estonade (ph). They're going to have a military procession from there down the hill towards the Cathedral where they will be presented to the King.
But this is a really excitement -- exciting moment for the people of Scotland. I mean, these crown jewels are priceless, particularly the crown. The sword has actually been newly made because the last one was in a bit of a state, but the crown is utterly priceless, the oldest crown in the United Kingdom. And that guy's got a bit of pressure.
[08:40:04]
NOBILO: He does. You can see the 43 precious stones glinting --
FOSTER: Yes.
NOBILO: -- within that crown. And you mentioned the swords. The previous one being too delicate. The new one named after Queen Elizabeth II, and it is a mighty sword. I look forward to seeing that.
FOSTER: Yes. The crown was actually made in 1540. It's amazing to think it's still around. It is getting a limousine ride down there to the -- that's actually one of the royal limousines, one of the limousines down to the Cathedral -- is made for James V.
So a huge amount of history and actually elements of it, I think, go back a lot further because they were -- you think it was made from a previous one.
We'll be back in just a moment with a bit more pomp and pageantry.
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FOSTER: Scottish crown arriving at the cathedral in Edinburgh where it will be presented to King Charles. He's currently up at palaces in the Holyrood House. He'll come down afterwards. But this is a, you know, really historic moment. One we haven't seen since 1953, when the same process was carried out for Queen Elizabeth II.
NOBILO: You can understand why in 2023 in Britain when there's cost of living crisis, inflation around 8 percent, seeing this gorgeous crown from the 16th century, covered in precious jewels, being escorted on its own in the car, to a ceremony of pomp and pageantry. Why they do have to be sensitive and delicate around balancing that with the cost of living crisis?
FOSTER: Yes. And I think that might be why they haven't necessarily played this one up. But this is -- I mean, the crown's an interest -- the Scottish crown's an interest one. It is a symbol of Scottish monarchy, but it's not actually in use. Because it's the crown, obviously, the town of London, which represents all of the United Kingdom that was just placed on King Charles' head at the coronation, not this one.
This is simply some regalia that exists from what was an independent kingdom. However, many hundreds of years ago, but it is a symbol of how Charles is effectively a king of Scotland and he inherited that title and merged it. You know, his predecessors merged it into the English Crown.
NOBILO: And on that note, let's bring in George Gross, Visiting Research Fellow at Kings College London. He's in Edinburgh.
[08:45:04]
George, Max is just making this very important point, you know, for people on this aisle, but also our international viewers. We're being careful not to call this a coronation, of course, because that would imply two separate nations. Talk to us a bit more about that.
GROSS: Yes, I mean, this crown is very symbolic and significant for Scotland. Very precious and very old. You're going back to 1540th, if not before. So -- and the first person to be crowned fully with it was Mary, Queen of Scots, with all of the other regalia that's on display today. So it has such history and significance. But, of course, it's not the crown of the union.
Nevertheless, it still has important points, both within the state opening of the Scottish Parliament. It's been used there and also poignantly. And I think this is very special about today and will be a moving moment.
Charles is receiving this, the King will be receiving this crown that was on top of the late Queen's coffin while she laid to rest in that very same Cathedral less than a year ago. So it has a -- there'll be a real poignancy to that moment where the King was paying vigil over his mother, the late Queen. So it has that moment, but it is not a crown of the full union. This is a Scottish crown.
FOSTER: What do the scepter and the sword represent?
GROSS: So it's power, spirituality, Christianity. So they each have their different roles. It's sad in many ways that that remarkable sword is too precious to have been able to transport, so they've now made this new Elizabeth sword again, that reference to the late Queen, who, of course, died in Scotland.
But each had their separate parts, separate roles, and they came together first in 1543 for Mary, Queen of Scots as one set of Scottish honors. But then that remarkable moment of surviving Oliver Cromwell's melting down of regalia across the British Isles and then disappearing into the chest in Edinburgh after the active union and then to be rediscovered by Sir Walter Scott in 1818.
NOBILO: Max has said how we are expecting the Prince and Princess of Wales to play a part in what we're seeing today. Would you have expected King Charles's other son, Prince Harry, to attend this?
GROSS: Not necessarily. There's no obligation for any of the other members necessary to be at a ceremony like this. So that's purely on the day, a decision that will be made. There's no requirement, there's no constitutional requirement for other members to be there. So, no, not necessarily on that one.
Typically, for an event like this, not least because of the role Prince and Princess of Wales have in their particular roles in Scotland, they take on Scottish titles. It's not surprising that they're there.
FOSTER: Just waiting to see the members of the royal family arrive. It's a short distance from the palace there to the Cathedral. But you can see the cavalry are there and they're always, you know, they're always the four bearers, aren't they, for the royal procession.
Just a thought on the Cathedral that we're going to, you know, see the service at today. You can see Holyrood House there. It actually older than the crown. It was built in 1124, and it's been a working church for almost 900 years. So the, you know, the history to all of this here we are at Holyrood.
So we're waiting to see the King and Queen to come out here. Then they'll be accompanied by the cavalry down to the Cathedral. But that moment is about to happen, so we're going to take a quick break before it does.
We'll have to thank you, George, at this point, for joining us. Really appreciate your time for joining us from King's College London.
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[08:51:55] FOSTER: You can see here Holyrood House. You can also see the cavalry. We are waiting to see the King and Queen of the United Kingdom come out and then they're going to head down to the Cathedral to receive the Scottish crown jewels.
We're also expecting to see the Prince and Princess of Wales. There may well be other members of the royal family, but we haven't been notified of them. There'll be a short procession down to the Cathedral. A service of Thanksgiving, it's being called, isn't it? Strictly not a coronation.
NOBILO: And what else can we expect from the day? What do we know about this service? It's Thanksgiving.
FOSTER: Well, a lot of the music has been created for it and Charles always oversees a lot of the music at all of these events, so he'll be intimately involved in that, but very formal, very religious. It is the High Church of Scotland. So I think this is a -- it's another moment, I mean, not nearly on the level of the coronation where he actually received the crown and had that moment of God, but it is a very sort of religious moment for Charles.
So I don't think it's not going to be any fireworks, something like that. It'll be very formal, I think. And then they all head back to the palace afterwards, again afterwards, and I think that there'll be a reception there. Quite low key, really, even though it doesn't look very low key.
But in terms of British royal events, this isn't -- this hasn't been really built up like many of the others we've had this year. It's a true celebration of Scottish culture as well. I believe there's going to be a Psalm sung in Gaelic during this Thanksgiving service and then New Testament passages in Scots as well. And we hear about Scottish music too, and the bagpipes playing and surrounded by centuries of Scottish history.
FOSTER: Yes. And we've been told the centerpiece is the Stone of Destiny, which is interesting. This big old boulder is almost more symbolic of Scotland than the crown, which is so incredible, but it really has been through the history of Scotland and it represents Scotland in so many ways.
You can see the bagpipers and the guards all lining up there on the forecourt, where we expect to see the King and the Queen. You were asking about Gordonstoun, which is the school Charles attended in Scotland. Three pipers, I'm told now, will be there to play at St. Giles' Cathedral from the school.
So all these links to all of his charities, all of his education and all of his, you know, all of his links with Scotland are really being celebrated at different parts of the service. And the congregation is made up of people from all the different walks of life in Scotland, including, of course, the First Minister, members of Parliament, political leaders, a lot of service members and military as well.
So the heads of a Scottish Air Force, Army and a navy as well. They have a lot of naval guards out there, big employer. And just before the King and Queen arrive, there will be this procession and it will include them and the Tri-Service Guard of Honor. You can see they're lining up.
They'll give a royal salute when they get there and then the service will effectively start playing after the National Anthem.
[08:55:00]
NOBILO: The royal tradition in Scotland goes back so much further than most countries could boast as well, doesn't it? I think the first King of the Scots assumed that title in the 5th century, so we're talking about a millennium and a half ago.
FOSTER: Yes. And, you know, 1,700, you know, that formal sort of uniting of the nations of what we now know as the United Kingdom. Up until then, Scotland, you know, had this very long, proud history as an independent state, which is why it's so interesting to see those crown jewels and the Stone of Destiny.
You know, and the Church that the service is going to be held in all going way back in Scottish history. And there has been a rise of nationalism. I mean, it's become very chaotic in recent times because that campaign has pretty much fallen apart with all the chaos around the SNP.
But there is a real nationalist feeling in Scotland, and even for many people who want to remain part of the United Kingdom, feel a very distinct identity away from England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
NOBILO: It remains very early in King Charles's reign, but obviously, you follow what he's doing, what his projects are, his causes, so closely. Are there many things that he does specifically in Scotland to bolster support for the monarchy and those links?
FOSTER: Well, one thing he does is he's a great support of bagpiping and he supports the bagpiping school and he's the patron of that. And then lots of cultural, you know, it's all the arts and craft. So the sword that you saw today, the new sword, was made by traditional craftsmen and women in Scotland and they are all supported by his charities.
So the Prince's Trust has a very big presence in Scotland, and that's all about apprenticeships for people from disadvantaged backgrounds, particularly learning the skills, the native skills of all of the nations in the U.K. But in Scotland, it does focus on a lot of the craft work in Scotland. I've seen a lot of that.
I went up there with him to see a lot of that work being done. He's trying to combine, you know, retaining the culture of the country with progressing people from disadvantaged backgrounds. So it's quite a smart way of doing it.
NOBILO: At the coronation of Westminster, we saw a lot of political figures, prime minister, heads of state, are we expecting to see political figures today? FOSTER: Certainly, Scottish political figures. I haven't had it clarified if Rishi Sunak is going. I would expect to see him there. We'd expect him to want to be part of this moment as well as prime minister of the whole of the United Kingdom.
But, yes, I mean, it's representative of society, so obviously, politicians fall into that, but so does the military, so does the Church, so do the charities and community workers as well. Health service again getting a big sort of presence today, and social work because of the role that they've played in the pandemic.
And, you know, in Scotland, the NHS is deeply loved. I mean, it's very much ingrained in Scottish society, whenever I've been up there. If you go with a politician on a tour, you'll tend to get pop into hospitals.
Just waiting for the King and Queen to come out of Holyrood House. And you can tell that that is the King's limousine because it's got the Royal Standard flying above it. And then the Prince and Princess of Wales will be arriving as well.
I shouldn't call them that. They are the Duke and Duchess of Rothesay when they're in Scotland.
NOBILO: Well, they're Scottish titles.
FOSTER: Yes.
NOBILO: Will we expect the King to be dressed similarly to his coronation in Westminster?
FOSTER: Well, I mean, I don't know, but it is a very poignant question you ask, because if there's one thing the Queen was criticized at her event in 1953, was that her clothing was too dour. She wore a regular outfit and the Scots felt slightly peeved that it should have been more of a ceremonial outfit.
So, you know, what you saw at the coronation was the top level of outfit, full ceremonial. It'll be interesting to see if they do that. I think a lot of Scots would like to see that.
NOBILO: Are there Scottish equivalents for those ceremonial robes?
FOSTER: There are elements to it that they add to it, which represent Scotland. The outfits are meant to represent the whole of the United Kingdom. So, if they turned up to the coronation only wearing Scottish gear, I think that wouldn't go down very well for people watching in Scotland.
NOBILO: No, it's a fine balance.
FOSTER: So the cavalry, they've gone up from London, and you were talking about the green credentials of this event away from the limousines. There has been a lot of transport going up to Scotland. It only happens very occasionally. So they are the Household Cavalry, who are based, you know, near Knightsbridge, quite close to Buckingham Palace.
So they've all gone up there. So they have a few days away. But it's a massive operation for them to bring all of their, you know, armory and to have it all polished up there. So they had to decamp a few days early to get everything looking stick and spam.
NOBILO: Do we know how much disruption is being caused? Whether or not there have been very rigorous security protocols in place, roads being shut in preparation for this?
FOSTER: Well, it's all been quite a tight area of Edinburgh, so it doesn't cause too much disruption. There has been a lot of warning about it, but not a huge amount of publicity. So I think you're right.
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