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NATO To Be The Focus Of Biden's Weeklong Trip To Europe; NYPD Investigating String Of Shootings In Queens; Manhunt Underway For Dangerous Escaped Inmate; Ukrainian Officials Report Gains Around Bakhmut; Special Counsel Focusing On Chaotic 2020 WH Meeting; Disciplinary Committee Recommends Rudy Giuliani Be Disbarred In D.C.; NYT: Former Aide John Kelly Says Trump Asked About IRS Probe Of FBI Officials; Nauta Pleads Not Guilty To Charges Of Mishandling Classified Documents; New Social Media App "Threads" Needles Twitter And Musk. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired July 08, 2023 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:00:32]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington.

President Biden spending the day at his vacation home in Delaware, but tomorrow he's going to be wheels' up for Europe. His weeklong trip will center on meeting with NATO allies in that military alliance and Russia's unprovoked war in Ukraine will be the backdrop and the big subject for discussion.

CNN's Priscilla Alvarez is in Rehoboth Beach, Delaware. Priscilla, I mean the stakes are going to be very high for the president at NATO. And he also is dealing with this issue of the administration sending off new aid to Ukraine that has come under some scrutiny. Tell us more.

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: That's right, Jim.

There's no doubt that this is a high-stakes meeting and gathering of NATO and one that comes at a critical time. There's the war in Ukraine, the munitions the U.S. is sending to Ukraine, and then two, that failed coup attempt in Russia.

Now there's three stops that the president will be doing. He's going to go to the U.K. where he'll meet with King Charles, as well as the British prime minister. Then he'll go to Lithuania for that NATO summit and conclude his trip in Finland.

But during the course of all of that, the question looming over those meetings will be, is there room for the Ukraine to join NATO?

Now, national security adviser Jake Sullivan was asked about this by reporters on Friday, and he confirmed that coming out of the summit, Ukraine will not be joining NATO, but they could talk about steps forward. President Biden himself said that it's premature for now, but there

could be a path he could discuss during the gathering. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST: When you go to the NATO summit, the big strategic issue is that Ukraine wants membership in NATO. Should it get membership in NATO?

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't think it's ready for membership in NATO, but here's the deal. I spent, as you know, a great deal of time trying to hold NATO together, because I believe Putin has had an overwhelming objective from the time he launched 185,000 troops into Ukraine, and that was to break NATO.

He was confident, in my view, and many in the intelligence community. He was confident he could break NATO. So holding NATO together is really critical.

I don't think there is unanimity in NATO about whether or not to bring Ukraine into the NATO family now, at this moment, in the middle of a war. For example, if you did that, then you know -- and I mean what I say -- we're determined to commit every inch of territory that is NATO territory. It's a commitment that we've all made, no matter what.

If the war is going on, then we're all in a war. You know? We're at war with Russia if that were the case. So, I think we have to lay out a path or a rational path for -- excuse me, for Ukraine to be able to qualify to get into NATO.

And we have, when the very first time I met with Putin two years ago in Geneva, and he said, I want commitments on no Ukraine in NATO. I said, we're not going to do that because it's an open-door policy. We're not going to shut anybody out.

NATO is a process that takes some time to meet all the qualifications, and from democratization to a whole range of other issues.

So in the meantime, I've spoken with Zelenskyy at length about this, and one of the things I indicated is the United States would be ready to provide while the process was going on -- and it's going to take a while -- while that process is going on, to provide security a la the security we provide for Israel. Providing the weaponries needed, the capacity to defend themselves if there is an agreement, if there is (INAUDIBLE) but I think a vote, you know, isn't now because there's other qualifications for being in there including democratization and some of those issues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ALVAREZ: So this is going to be a flash point during the gathering. The president would be a key player in determining criteria or timelines. But again, the question is going to be, will there be progress on this front about Ukraine becoming a NATO member.

[17:04:52] ALVAREZ: And then also, what does long-term aid look like as the war in Ukraine is ongoing, particularly after the U.S. has committed to sending those cluster munitions, Jim.

ACOSTA: All right. Priscilla Alvarez, thank you so much, and you can see the entire interview with President Biden tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. Eastern on "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS". So tune in for that right here on CNN.

Some breaking news to tell you about out of New York City where police are investigating a string of shootings that wounded at least three people this morning in Queens. The shootings happened within 20 minutes at multiple locations across a two mile radius in the Jamaican neighborhood of Queens.

Polo Sandoval is following these developments for us and joins me now. Polo, what do we know.

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jim, this is particularly disturbing given the fact that NYPD just a few moments ago said that the suspect aboard a scooter seemed to have been shooting at people, apparently at random here. This is according to investigators and that new information just released just a few moments ago.

This is a string of shootings just before noon today. We understand three of them in the Queens neighborhood of Richmond Hills and then another one in the nearby Cypress Hills neighborhood of Brooklyn, all very busy and very commercial neighborhoods here, Jim.

We understand that suspect was aboard a scooter, used a 9 millimeter pistol with an extended magazine at those five scenes, shooting four people, one of them fatally. We understand he was a man in his 80s who unfortunately did not survive the shooting.

One of the ones who did is a 44-year-old man who was shot in the face. He's still in critical condition with the rest of the injured that we are expected to pull through.

The arrest happened just a couple of hours after all of this started in the 11:00 hour earlier today here, Jim. Apparently the authorities here saying they quickly were able to obtain a photograph of this suspect that we understand right now is only a 25-year-old Hispanic male that has been arrested, quickly disseminated that information to investigators who then were able to track him down again just two hours after these horrific scenes played out.

I want you to hear directly from one of the top investigators here as he lays out what they know at this point about a possible motive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF JOSEPH KENNY, NEW YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT: It seems that his acts were random. If you look at the demographics and pedigree of the victims, they were all different. At this time, video shows that he's not targeting anybody. He's not following anybody. As he's driving on his scooter he's randomly shooting people. (END VIDEO CLIP)

SANDOVAL: Now, in terms of the weapon, investigators have shared some images right now with what they know. They do know that they have not been able to actually track down a serial number, so they'll obviously be working with federal investigators on that piece, which means at this point it's still too early to tell Jim, if this was possibly a ghost gun or if the serial number itself was modified or defaced.

So, investigators following that lead right now. We do understand though, again, he was arrested without incident here and also, important to remind viewers here, the greater context of things. This is happening or at least it happened just five days after an armored and armed shooter in southwest Philadelphia opened fire randomly as well killing five people and injuring two.

ACOSTA: All right. Polo Sandoval, thanks very much. Appreciate it.

Right now, a manhunt is under way in Pennsylvania and New York for an escaped inmate. Authorities say Michael Charles Burham is very dangerous and has survivalist skills.

They first alerted the public on Friday, saying the inmate managed to escape by climbing on top of the exercise equipment to get to the prison roof.

CNN's Rafael Romo is following the manhunt closely, joins us now with more details. Rafael, what's the latest on the search for this escaped inmate?

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi Jim. Well, Warren Police for the town in northwestern Pennsylvania where this happened, now say federal, state, and local agencies are looking for the suspect and have expanded the search -- the search area beyond the city, but his whereabouts at this point are unknown.

Also, Pennsylvania state police have assumed incident command because the search expanded throughout Warren County and into areas of New York state.

And we're learning new details about the suspect, Jim. 34-year-old Michael Charles Burham He was being held in a Pennsylvania prison on arson and burglary charges, and he's also a suspect in a homicide case.

Authorities have said also police in Jamestown, New York, said in May that Burham had an active warrant for rape. Additionally, Burham allegedly carjacked and kidnapped a local couple in Warren County, Pennsylvania in May.

According to a criminal docket we have reviewed, and a spokesperson in the same county. In that case, Jim, a Pennsylvania judge set bail at $1 million. Police say Burham escaped from the Warren County prison Friday by elevating himself on exercise equipment and exiting the jail yard through a metal-gated roof. Officials say he was able to use bed sheets that were tied together to get from the roof to the ground in addition to searching for Burham on foot with K-9 units.

[17:09:52]

ROMO: Law enforcement officers are also using ATVs, drones and aircraft, according to a spokeswoman with Warren County. And she also said that there's no indication the suspect is being assisted by anybody, but he's familiar with the area in northwestern Pennsylvania.

Jim, back to you.

ACOSTA: All right. Rafael Romo, thank you very much.

And now to a developing story out of Chicago where the city's police department says multiple officers are under investigation for alleged improper sexual contact with migrants. It's unclear how many officers are involved or if any have faced any disciplinary action.

Hundreds of new migrant arrivals have been housed in city buildings, including Chicago police stations for the past several months.

CNN's Camila Bernal has more on these very disturbing allegations. Camila, what do we know?

CAMILA BERNAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey Jim. There's very little details but we know this is already being investigated so we have to wait for the results of that investigation or wait for authorities to release more details.

What we know is that this is coming from the 10th district police station, and these are allegations of improper sexual relations between the migrants and officers.

And of course, to really understand all of this, you have to remember that there are many, many migrants right now who are being housed at police stations in Chicago. That living arrangement has been criticized by many in the area and has been covered for months since the migrants started arriving in Chicago.

The "Chicago Sun-Times" has been covering this issue, and they were the first to report these allegations, allegations that a lot of the activists that I spoke to told me were not shocking.

I spoke to Evelyn Figueroa. She's been helping the migrants for months now, and this is essentially her life mission. And she gave me some perspective. Here she is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EVELYN FIGUEROA, DIRECTOR, PILSEN FOOD PANTRY: It's such a harsh set- up for the police and for the migrants, and I think that this potential sexual assault really exposes the horrible communication that's occurred between the new arrivals and the police.

(END VIDEO CLIP)\

BERNAL: Now, I also spoke to the president of the police union, and he says there are many officers who go above and beyond to help these migrants, also saying that this is really a horrible situation for the officers, that the migrants should not be at police stations.

Here is what he said about the allegations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN CATANZARA JR. PRESIDENT, FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE CHICAGO LODGE NO. 7: We don't even know the validity of this complaint, the origin of this complaint. Who made it? Is there any truth to it whatsoever? Anybody can -- it's ridiculous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERNAL: Now, we also reached out to COPA, they are the independent agency within the city that is investigating all of this, and they say these allegations are of their highest priority. They also say they're quick to address misconduct in situations like this, and again, we have to wait to see exactly what comes out of this investigation.

But we know that the city is already trying to move out the migrants from the tenth district police station, but again, it's just something that has been criticized, there are a lot of people in Chicago that do not want the migrants to be at police stations, but the solutions here are limited, Jim.

ACOSTA: All right. Camila Bernal, a very disturbing story. Thank you very much.

Coming up, we'll take you inside the fight for Bakhmut in Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That was a high explosive anti-personnel munition fired at the direction of Russian troops outside of Bakhmut.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Plus, why special counsel Jack Smith is honing in on a December 2020 Oval Office meeting that by all accounts was a screaming match.

And later, 70 million sign-ups in 24 hours. Is Threads on its way to replacing Twitter? We'll talk about that as well.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

[17:13:40]

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ACOSTA: Russia's foreign ministry says the U.S. decision to send cluster munitions to Ukraine is an act of desperation. But the move is being welcomed inside Ukraine where the country's military is pushing onward with its counteroffensive against Russian forces. Our Ben Wedeman has more.

WEDEMAN: Jim, the Ukrainians are applauding the U.S. decision to provide Ukraine with controversial cluster munitions. They would have come in very handy in the ongoing battle around Bakhmut, which seems to be, at the moment the focus of the Ukrainian counteroffensive.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEDEMAN: As soon as one artillery round blasts toward Bakhmut, the crew rush in to prepare for another. Ukrainians (INAUDIBLE) the fourth game (ph) we encountered. But since last year, it's been the epicenter of the war.

Gun commander Artem has been in the area for months. The task of taking down coordinates and barking orders, now routine. He says he's now half-deaf from the blasts, yet he has sensed a change. It feels like they're often running away, he says, referring to the Russians, and then the order to fire.

There's barely a let-up in the distant thud of shelling. The Russian says this gunner, call sign Aries, are falling back. We know because they hit us much less. One or two months ago, there was a lot of incoming. It was scary to be here. Now, it's different.

On another flank, the big guns are out. This is a Bogdana (ph) Ukrainian-made 155-millimeter self-propelled howitzer. Ukraine claims the Russians have poured as many as 50,000 troops into the defense of the town, dug in deep.

[17:19:50]

WEDEMAN: "The Russians have fortified their positions and stand strong," Commander Dmytro (ph) tells me, "but I think that's temporary".

Russian soldiers captured in the battle here told us the shelling on their positions was relentless.

That was a high explosive anti-personnel munition fired at the direction of Russian troops outside of Bakhmut. As soon as they fire, they prepare to fire again.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN: But just 25 miles north of Bakhmut in the town of Liman, several Russian rockets slammed into a residential area. People were out buying groceries from local food markets when the strike occurred, according to local officials, and the strike killed at least eight people and wounded more than a dozen, Jim.

ACOSTA: Ben Wedeman thanks very much for that report.

And here with us to talk about this further is Brad Hendrickson, also known as Bakhmut Brad. He's been with us on the program before. He's a former UPS truck driver who left his life in Maine last year, deployed himself to the eastern part of Ukraine to provide humanitarian aid to the country's residents.

Brad, it's great to see you again. You recently just returned to Ukraine. What are you seeing now? What are you picking up on?

BRAD HENDRICKSON, AMERICAN HELPING CIVILIANS IN UKRAINE: The lines are much more static, Jim, than when I first arrived in March of last year. We began by evacuating people out of Lysychansk and sort of falling back to towns and villages along the way.

With both aid from the West and certainly the seasoned grit from Ukrainian soldiers, the Russians are no longer advancing, and things are more or less kind of at a violent but nonetheless kind of stalemate in terms of terrain and advancing.

ACOSTA: And I remember the last time we spoke with you, you were helping out elderly residents in and around Bakhmut, delivering supplies, and you're back to delivering some of those needed supplies to Ukrainian civilians. What are the needs like right now?

HENDRICKSON: The needs are standard, you know, food, clean water, fans for the heat if possible, and if there's a generator for electricity and so forth.

The drive for warm weather during the cold months of winter isn't quite as depressing at this point. The main thing right is just to press the sort of aggressors back away from their neighborhood altogether.

I will say, Jim, I have had some messages from people wondering what they could maybe ship to Ukraine or donate and send and so forth.

ACOSTA: Yes.

HENDRICKSON: My experience here is that almost all of the sort of standard items are able to be purchased here in Ukraine, and I think the money that would be spent on shipping would be better put to use to supporting the Ukrainian economy for purchases here on-site directly.

ACOSTA: And Bakhmut has become well known as one of the most war-torn areas in Ukraine in part because of the intense fighting between the Ukrainians and the Wagner mercenary forces attempting to take control of that region for Russia.

What is your sense, and as you know, Wagner has been in the news over the last couple of weeks with that almost coup that they had in Russia. What is your sense of the impact Wagner had there where you are in Bakhmut? Are there any remnants?

HENDRICKSON: I don't know. I don't know the sort of troop positions and so forth. I'm not currently in Bakhmut. I'm south of there a bit in another town. Bakhmut is no longer really accessible directly for folks in my role here.

But Tsasaviar (ph) the next town back and Kostiantynivka (ph) and so forth. In any case, I know that their presence was certainly very brutal, was very indiscriminate, was just horrific, as all the reports have indicated.

And everyone that we -- everyone that we can finally reach again, you know, bring out are certainly grateful for that piece.

ACOSTA: And Brad, I know you and I have been messaging about this. We should note for viewers you had to leave Ukraine earlier this year because -- and make sure ,help me fill in the blanks here if I get any of those wrong because you had a heart attack. Is that right, after a year of near-death experiences, and the deaths of some of your fellow volunteers.

What has that experience been like getting back to the point where you're going back in. And did it give you any pause, going back in, given what you have been going through from a health standpoint?

HENDRICKSON: Sure. That at least was the initial kind of feedback and report from the doctors responding to pretty crushing chest pain and difficulty breathing and so forth.

[17:24:48]

HENDRICKSON: And they checked out the blood enzymes that come out, you know, when there's some sort of cardiac stress and so forth. So when they snaked the camera up my artery in my leg, they didn't find that there was any need for stents.

And so it seems that perhaps more precisely it's what the Mayo Clinic refers to on their Web site as the Broken Heart Syndrome, of all things. And that certainly seems pretty apt. One way or another, we could say that I blew a fuse and needed to take a breather. And I did.

I was fortunate enough to have a couple of different hosts in the area here, actually a journalist in Oxford, in England, Laurel Chore (ph) does great work, and she -- the apartment was empty. She was away doing some other work and had offered a free place to hole up there. Some folks had kind of contacted me and offered some airline points to get me, you know, from place to place.

Anyway, that's what I have been doing, getting reset. John Radcliff Hospital in Oxford gave me more or less a clean bill of health a few weeks ago, so it seemed time to come back and at least see where I stand.

What I mean by that, is that of the kind of local contacts, of military and emergency personnel, other sort of firemen and requests and kind coordination, folks that were working in and around where we are and other towns and villages nearby, have all kind of had to relocate and kind of get grafted into other locations.

And so, obviously, there was the dam that blew, and a lot of work there. So, I guess, what I'm saying is part of what I'm here to do is to assess whether there really is a second kind of 2.0 chapter for me here. If there are needs which are really critical and crucial and urgent, and in a way that there aren't many other volunteers that are able or willing or whatever to get in there and make that difference. I also might need to just say, look, it's been, you know, pushing a

year and a half here at this point, and I do have other responsibilities that I have set aside in the States, and I might need to kind of wish everyone well and extend all of my solidarity and so forth, but resume in a new direction back in the States.

ACOSTA: Well, Brad, keep us posted on how things are going over there. It's inspiring to see folks like you go in there and try to do that type of work. I know it means a lot to the Ukrainians there, but please, please stay safe. Come home safe, and keep us up to speed on how things are going out there.

Brad Hendrickson, thanks very much for your time. We appreciate it.

HENDRICKSON: Thanks, Jim.

ACOSTA: All righ.t Good to talk to you again.

Up next, he was once known as America's mayor, and his political career seemed to have no limit. How Rudy Giuliani is facing disbarment for his work on behalf of Trump's 2020 election lie.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.\

[17:27:37]

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[17:31:46]

ACOSTA: In an exclusive CNN report, sources say special counsel, Jack Smith, and his investigators are interested in a chaotic Oval Office meeting during the final days of Donald Trump's presidency.

In that heated December 2020 meeting, outside advisors faced off with top West Wing attorneys, pushing for extreme efforts to keep Trump in office, even martial law.

Joined now by Zach Cohen for more details.

Zach, what are investigators trying to learn about that meeting, and how might that be critical to this case?

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Jim, we have learned that prosecutors have asked multiple witnesses in just the last few weeks about this December 18, 2020, Oval Office meeting.

Obviously, that happened after Trump not only lost the election but after states had already ratified their results. So, it was pretty locked in, waiting ahead of January 6th.

But in this meeting, we had a group of outside advisors, people like Michael Flynn, people like Patrick Byrne, the former Overstock CEO, and Sidney Powell, really pitching Trump on these extreme ideas for keeping him power, overturning the election results. They got severe pushback from White House attorneys. But Rudy Giuliani was recently asked about this meeting as well. It's interesting because Rudy participated in the meeting itself. And even proposed a plan where they could gain access to voting systems in Georgia, using local election officials that were maybe sympathetic to their cause.

So interesting that Jack Smith and his prosecutors are asking about this meeting at this stage in the investigation when it appears they could be nearing a charging decision in at least part of the probe.

ACOSTA: I remember reporting on the Trump presidency at that time, and we talked to Trump's own advisors, and they were saying, what are some of these people doing in the Oval Office, coming in and out of the West Wing, talking to the president of the United States about this stuff?

And, Zach, we also learned this week that an attorney disciplinary committee recommended that Rudy Giuliani be disbarred in Washington, D.C., for his efforts on behalf of Trump in those days when they were trying to overturn the 2020 election results.

What can you tell us about that?

COHEN: Just like these advisors and Rudy were told in this office meeting that they had no evidence of fraud, this panel of -- sort of a disciplinary panel has recommended that he should not be able to practice law anymore because he filed these lawsuits without any evidence of election fraud.

Their ruling was very harsh. They called it a destructive case. So, it has to go through more phases. The D.C. Court of Appeals has to agree with the recommendation, but a blow to Rudy Giuliani's legal career potentially here.

ACOSTA: That's what the committee, in this statement, you see, he claimed massive election fraud but had no evidence of it. By prosecuting that destructive case, Mr. Giuliani forfeited his law right to practice law. He should be disbarred.

I mean, you don't see that happening every day, especially to someone who was once dubbed America's mayor.

Zach Cohen, thanks very much.

Let's bring in Elie Honig for more legal perspective in all of this. He's a former federal prosecutor and a CNN senior legal analyst. And by the way, the author of the book, "Untouchable, How Powerful People Get Away With it.

Elie, always great to talk to you.

Help us understand why this is so significant to investigators. I remember when this was being reported at the time, there was a lot of interest in what was going on inside that meeting.

And lo and behold, it looks like it's going to be pretty critical to Jack Smith's case.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Jim, this tells us that DOJ and Jack Smith's team are looking at absolutely everything as they should. That's the job of a prosecutor.

[17:35:05]

And while the worst ideas that were posed to Donald Trump at this meeting, declaring martial law, seizing voting machines, declaring Sidney Powell special counsel, while those were not followed, this was still a seminal moment for everything else that did follow.

This is the sort of ground zero because, after this, we saw some of the same people organizing the attempt to pressure state legislators and state governors, organizing the effort to submit false elector documents to the National Archives.

And ultimately, orchestrating the attempt to pressure the vice president, Mike Pence, to throw out the electoral votes.

This is a crucial part of the story. And as a prosecutor, you absolutely have to have it as part of your overall presentation and consideration of who to charge with what.

ACOSTA: I remember talking to my sources at the time, and these sources were describing an effort that was essentially throwing everything but the kitchen sink, well, including the kitchen sink, at trying to overturn those election results. So it's no surprise this is a key part of this investigation.

And we're also learning that Rudy Giuliani sat with investigators last month as part of a voluntary interview, was asked about this meeting. What is the significance of that?

HONIG: This is such an interesting development, Jim. And, candidly, I can't figure out what to make of it. Even as a former DOJ prosecutor.

Here's why. Ordinarily, you would never bring in someone, nor would that person come in for this sort of voluntary interview if they were a target, if they were someone who was likely to be charged.

It's unfair and bad practice for DOJ to do that if someone's a target. And no decent lawyer -- and Rudy Giuliani has a decent lawyer in Bob Costello -- without ever agreeing to do that.

Also, ordinarily, I would say this is a precursor to full-blown cooperation. However, there's no way you can cooperate Rudy Giuliani as a prosecutor in the full sense of the world.

You can't put Rudy Giuliani on the stand and offer him to a jury as a witness. He's one of the least credible people in this whole saga.

So, what seems safe to say, given those two things, is that DOJ's doing its diligence here. They need to talk to everybody. They need to get all the facts. If they think Rudy's offering some facts that are useful and truthful,

fine. If they think he's lying or shading the truth, fine. They'd never have to use him as a witness.

It's a curious development, but I think they're trying to make sure they look under every stone here.

ACOSTA: Elie, "The New York Times" reported that Trump's former White House chief of staff, John Kelly, said Trump asked about having the IRS investigate Peter Strzok and Lisa Paige, two FBI officials who were involved in the Russia investigation.

What do you make of that?

HONIG: Not surprising in several respects. First, Donald Trump made it a habit when he was president of trying to use the levers of executive power to target his perceived political enemies.

Most famously DOJ. He urged DOJ all the time to go after people in the FBI, people who he perceived as his enemies.

Here, I think what's important to note is he's singling out these two people, Peter Strzok and Lisa Page, who are part of the Mueller team. He has gone after them publicly more times than we can count. So it's no question he had it in for them.

It's important to note that he asked about it. He did not follow through on it. There's no evidence that they were targeted by the IRS, but there's no question Donald Trump wanted to go after them.

ACOSTA: Former aide to former President Trump, Walt Nauta, pleaded not guilty to multiple counts related to the mishandling of documents at Mar-a-Lago.

What do you expect, Nauta might follow Trump's playbook and try to delay this trial as much as possible, right up against the '24 election or after the '24 election?

Can he do that as well or as effectively as a former president with that kind of a legal team that Donald Trump has?

HONIG: I think it's a safe bet that Walt Nauta is going to be in league with Donald Trump here. There's no indication that Walt Nauta has flipped or will flip, although I've seen people surprise me with cooperating in my career here.

Yes, I think Walt Nauta is going to be on the same strategic page as Donald Trump. I think he's going to fight these charges vigorously.

I think he's going to be right on board with, let's try to push this thing off until after the election.

And just inherently, if you have two defendants, there's more work to do, there's more discovery to turn over, there's more motions to be brought than if you have one. And I think Walt Nauta and Donald Trump, it wouldn't at all surprise me if we find out in the coming days and weeks that they have a joint defense agreement, which is perfectly legitimate, nothing illegal about it.

But it's when multiple defendants decide, we're going to work together, have our lawyers work together, and have a unified defense here. I absolutely expect to see that with respect to Nauta and Donald Trump.

ACOSTA: They do work closely with one another so that would not be too surprising.

All right, Elie Honig, thank you so much for your time. We appreciate it.

HONIG: Thanks, Jim.

ACOSTA: All right, good to see you.

[17:39:41]

Coming up, is Threads threatening Twitter? I have it on my phone. Do you have it on your phone? A lot of people are downloading it. We'll run the numbers on this, live, in the CNN NEWSROOM next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ACOSTA: The success of Meta's new Twitter-like platform, Threads, seems to be needling Twitter and Elon Musk. Twitter is threatening to sue, claiming that Meta stole trade secrets. Meta says that is not true.

Meanwhile, there are a lot of people who seem to be celebrating the new alternative to Twitter.

CNN senior data reporter, Harry Enten, joins us now to run the numbers.

Harry, I was looking for your Threads account. I couldn't find it. Maybe you can help us out, give us a plug during the segment. What have you stitched together about Threads for us?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: I think, after that promo, I might actually have to create a Threads account.

ACOSTA: I think you should.

ENTEN: Look, I might be the only one -- maybe I should. I might be the only one out there who doesn't have one at this point.

Because Threads is hot, hot, hot. I mean, my goodness gracious. Over 70 million users, and it just took them two days to do it. That beats the old record. ChatGPT took over a month to get 70-plus million users.

You talk about TikTok. You talk about Instagram. Those took months, if not years, to get 70 million-plus users.

[17:45:02]

The fact is everyone seems to be signing up for Threads. Within no time, it should be over 100 million users. And I may be one of them, given your plug earlier.

ACOSTA: Harry, I don't know what you have been waiting for. The longer it takes, you're just not doing us right over here.

You mentioned Instagram. It shows Meta has a history of running popular apps that are not Facebook, right? I mean, they basically had to change the name of the company, didn't they, to Meta because of how Facebook was dealing with all this negative publicity.

What can you tell us about that?

ENTEN: Yes, I mean, look, the fact that Threads is doing so well shouldn't be that surprising, given how well Meta was able to handle Instagram. They took it over about a little over a decade ago.

And what did we see? U.S. adults who use Instagram, it was 13 percent in 2012, 26 percent in 2017. And in 2022, 47 percent of U.S. adults use Instagram.

And Threads is obviously not there yet but I wouldn't be surprised if it gets there eventually, given the strong early numbers they've been showing.

ACOSTA: Conventional wisdom says Threads has captured people because Elon Musk's Twitter has been struggling. Let's just be real about it. A lot of people are furious with what Elon Musk has done with Twitter, and that has fueled a lot of the interest in Threads.

What do the numbers show?

ENTEN: Yes, I mean, the fact that since Elon Musk took over, we know that the people who have been the most active users on Twitter, I used to be one of them, and I will admit I have been using it a lot less.

The number of tweets from the most active users has been down 20 percent since Elon Musk bought Twitter in October of 2022.

And I think a lot of those folks are migrating over to Threads. I've seen a bunch of people of my Twitter stream saying they are going over to Threads. And it's so easy, because if you have Instagram, you just click a box and you're over to Threads. Maybe I should do that with my Instagram.

ACOSTA: Right. Yes. I mean, they made it very easy for you, Harry. I think you're running out of excuses now to not get on Threads.

But Twitter's problems aren't just a shrinking number of tweets. The company's financial situation doesn't look that great either. And I mean, look at -- I mean, consider all the money that Elon Musk paid to buy Twitter. It's kind of shocking the way -- I mean, maybe folks will say it's not

so shocking the way he's handled things. But it's kind of remarkable the way things have ended up for Elon Musk and Twitter.

ENTEN: I mean, it really is remarkable. I mean, remember how much he paid for it back in the day. It was billions upon billions of dollars, $44 billion back in October of 2022.

Look how much the estimated worth of it is right now, just $15 billion. Now, I wish I had $15 billion. But the fact is that's worth about a third of what he paid for it back in October of 2022.

But I guess my one question for you here, Jim, is, you've been saying I need a Threads account. Do you have one?

ACOSTA: I have one. I set it up on Thursday when it came out. Harry, you're looking at a guy who doesn't wait around for these trends to pass me by. You got to stay on top of things. The young kids out there. They're counting on us.

So, Harry, I don't know what you have -- you might have free time this weekend. Consider getting on Threads. We need to see the steady stream of all Harry's numbers and, you know, it's time.

ENTEN: I will join Threads, and I will follow you if you promise to follow me.

ACOSTA: I will certainly do that. Absolutely, of course.

And by the way --

(CROSSTALK)

ACOSTA: -- we should note to our viewers, I looked for you earlier today, and I said, oh, Harry's not there. We'll consider -- we'll continue this conversation offline.

Harry, thank you so much. Great to see you as always.

ENTEN: Thanks.

ACOSTA: Be sure to check out Harry's podcast, "MARGINS OF ERROR." You can find it on your favorite podcasts or at CNN.com/audio. And perhaps you'll find Harry on Threads as well. Just look for him there.

Still to come, legendary soccer star, Megan Rapinoe, will be hanging up her cleats at the end of this season. What's behind her decision? That's a head.

[17:48:54]

You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:53:22] ACOSTA: Hundreds of families are now suing social media giants, including a Connecticut woman named Tammy Rodriguez.

CNN's Audie Cornish spoke to Tammy for a report of the lawsuit for CNN's new show, "THE WHOLE STORY," with Anderson Cooper.

Here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR & CORRESPONDENT (voice-over) What Tammy did not know at the time was that Selena had figured out how to block her mother from seeing her online life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had saved her fingerprint, and I didn't know she had, in my phone. So if I would fall asleep or whatever, she would use her fingerprint to get in and change settings.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Once the pandemic had started, she was posting more. She became more recluse. She was focused on how many likes she has, how many followers she has, how many followers she is losing, who is messaging her.

CORNISH: During the pandemic, when Selena's school and social life moved online, she was regularly messaging with people on these apps. Some she knew, some she did not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There were adults that would reach out, which I was not aware of until not too long ago. Men. They knew she was a minor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: An all-new episode of "THE WHOLE STORY" with Anderson Cooper airs tomorrow at 8:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific, only on CNN.

The July 3rd mass shooting in Philadelphia has drawn national attention but anti-violence advocate and 2022 "CNN Hero," Tyrique Glasgow, it hit close to home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[17:54:59]

TYRIQUE GLASGOW, CNN HERO: The reality of hearing gunshots is normal in our community. The family members and friends that I've lost are countless.

My cousins, they always looked out for me growing up. He wasn't a young man out here selling drugs, carrying guns. He wanted to do right. And to have him taken away, senselessly, I was hurting.

We need to provide a table of resources. Today, we start our summer camp, working with kids to build a safe place for our children.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's your favorite color? GLASGOW: That's when we try to do our best.

Our communication center helps us really provide essential quality of life resources. There's apps that really change the community's trajectory.

I believe that that's how we grow as a community, lifting each other up. It allows us to keep moving forward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: You can find out more about Tyrique's work and nominate your own hero at CNNheroes.com. A note to our viewers, nominations close July 31st.

We will be right back.

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