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Thousands Protest As Parliament Passes Controversial Law; Sicilian Airport Closes Due To Fire Emergency; 34 Killed By Wildfires In Algeria; Russian Prisoner Recruits Speak Of The Horrors Of War; IAEA Discovers Mines On Zaporizhzhia Power Plant Site; Jill Biden In Paris To Mark U.S. Rejoining UNESCO. Aired 2-2:45a ET

Aired July 25, 2023 - 02:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[02:00:29]

ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world. I'm Rosemary Church. Just ahead on CNN NEWSROOM.

Israel in turmoil. Police and protesters clashing in the streets as Benjamin Netanyahu's government pushes ahead with a sweeping judicial overhaul that has exposed deep divisions within the nation.

Wildfires burning out of control across Greece. The Prime Minister saying the country is at war, warning relief is unlikely anytime soon.

Plus, we hear from former Russian soldiers about being recruited from prison to fight in Putin's war.

ANNOUNCER: Live from CNN Center. This is CNN NEWSROOM with Rosemary Church.

CHURCH: Good to have you with us. And we begin in Israel where protests are raging unabated hours after the Israeli Parliament passed into law. The first part of a controversial judicial overhaul plan.

Now, this was a scene in Tel Aviv a short time ago, as Israelis clash with police and block the city's main highway and authorities use water cannon to try and disperse them.

On Monday, demonstrators attempted to block access to the Parliament during the vote and police say at least 19 people were arrested.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's far-right coalition unanimously approved the legislation after all opposition lawmakers walked out of the chamber in protest. But Mr. Netanyahu is calling the passage of the law a necessary democratic move.

CNN's Fred Pleitgen has been following the developments and has more now from Jerusalem.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): Israeli police trying to disperse the crowd using water cannon trucks but facing massive resistance.

PLEITGEN: For now, the protesters are telling us they believe it's so important for them to stay out here right now and voice their anger at the decisions that were made today in Israeli Parliament that they say they are not going to bunch.

PLEITGEN (voiceover): As the police try to wrestle them away, anger unloading after Parliament with a far-right majority passed a law severely curbing the Supreme Court's power to check the government. Opponents saying democracy is at risk.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're trying to do our best in all those who protect democracy in our country.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it has an impact in the world to see that we are not going down slowly and (INAUDIBLE)

PLEITGEN (voiceover): It's called the reasonableness bill and is part of a set of plans to not only cut the Supreme Court's power but also to make it easier for the government to change the makeup of the court itself. All opposition Knesset members walked out in protest during the vote saying Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his far-right coalition are destroying Israel's democracy.

In a televised address Netanyahu firing back.

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL (through translator): Today we performed a democratic need. According to most people of Israel, this is the essence of democracy to do what the majority wish.

PLEITGEN (voiceover): But many Israelis, not just those out on the streets of Jerusalem, say they fear for the country's future, says Israeli actress Noa Tishby was dismissed as an Israeli special envoy for criticizing the judicial overhaul.

NOA TISHBY, ISRAELI ACTRESS AND ACTIVIST: The majority of the Israeli population is not behind this particular vote. That's just the truth. But the Israeli people are not going to stop fighting to make sure that Israel stays a liberal democracy which is strong, safe, and secure.

PLEITGEN (voiceover): And those scuffles continue well into the night in Jerusalem and other Israeli cities.

Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHURCH: For more let's go to journalist Elliott Gotkine who joins us live from Tel Aviv. Good to see you, Elliot. So, as protests continue and strikes loom, what comes next for Israel at this historic time for the nation?

ELLIOTT GOTKINE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Rosemary, it was quite a day, wasn't it? On Monday. I don't think we expect such dramatic scenes on Tuesday. But as you say, there are certain things going on which we're keeping an eye on. So, for example the Israeli Medical Association has announced a 24- hour strike. It will just be operating a similar service to the one that it does on public holidays and on the Jewish Sabbath as well.

There's no sign yet of any kind of general strike from the main umbrella union that his stud wrote that has been talked about a potential strike but no sign of that just yet. The other thing that we're expecting are more petitions to be filed to the Supreme Court to file some at the very least an injunction preventing the passage of this reasonableness bill being turned into law to try to prevent that from happening and then ultimately to try to scrap it.

[02:05:14]

And of course, it is somewhat ironic here, isn't it? That the Supreme Court is effectively being asked to block a law that is effectively being asked to block a law that would prevent the Supreme Court from blocking certain laws or appointments. So, that's the situation that we're in right now. And as we were discussing on Monday, you know, if we do get to a position where the Supreme Court does strike down this reasonableness bill for being unreasonable, then we could be set for the equivalent of a constitutional chaos here.

And no one really knows what would happen then. But as I say, for now, you know, we do expect more protests. We have this strike by the Israeli Medical Association. There may be more strikes announced more petitions. And I should say that those roads, that main fire affair in Tel Aviv, which protesters were blocking wasn't cleared until 1:00 in the morning. And in that clip that we saw from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, he also said that he wanted to reach out to the opposition to reach in his words a general agreement on everything.

All the other elements of his judicial overhaul plans, which include, among other things, giving the government more power to select judges and also further reducing the Supreme Court's power to strike down laws. But given how poorly negotiations over this reasonableness bill fared and given that the opposition believes that the government was negotiating in bad faith, it's probably unsurprising that they had dismissed these overtures by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

Yair Lapid, former prime minister, lead of the opposition, saying that it is just an empty show adding that Netanyahu isn't really prime minister. He simply figurehead beholden to the more extremist elements in his governing coalition. Rosemary?

CHURCH: All right. Elliot Gotkine joining us live from Tel Aviv. Many thanks.

Well, Sicily's Palermo Airport is closed due to a fire emergency. And you can see huge flames burning not far from the tarmac. Officials say they began in a town about 10 kilometers from the airport and have come dangerously close to the facility due to hot, dry winds. The airport will be closed for the next few hours and flights will be delayed or cancelled. And wildfires are spreading across several regions in Algeria.

They have killed at least 34 people so far. Ten of the victims are soldiers who died while evacuating other army personnel and civilians to safety. Right now, some 8,000 firefighters are working to control the flames. Algeria and other North African nations have been suffering through a major heat wave, making conditions more dangerous for rescue workers and firefighters.

And wildfires are burning in Greece and multiple areas, also fueled by a major heat wave. The country's prime minister is saying we are at war as they try to put out the flames and look to rebuild what's lost. Some of the strongest fires and heaviest damage is on the island of Rhodes. Here you can see buildings utterly destroyed, residents describe the horror left behind.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): We are in front of a catastrophe where all our lifetimes work and effort could be lost in a minute and half an hour. It's tragic. More than

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CHURCH: More than 20,000 people have been evacuated from the southern and central parts of Rhodes where the fires have been the fiercest. Firefighting crews, including teams from nearby countries are working around the clock to put them out.

So, let's get the latest now from Elinda Labropoulou who joins us live from Athens. So, Elinda, what is the latest on these raging wildfires that of course have prompted mass evacuations?

ELINDA LABROPOULOU, JOURNALIST: The latest is in a nutshell, not good. Basically, we had a lot of wreaking links and more villages have been evacuated, particularly on the island of Corfu where we know evacuations took place in the middle of the night, including what is the oldest village in the island -- on the island. In Corfu, more people are leaving the island. The local estimates are that about 18,000 people have left.

Usually, the island has about 150,000 people. So, let's say about half of the tourists that have been on the island, have by now been evacuated, moved on to other resorts, some to other parts of the island, some simply to back home. We know there are a lot of flights trying to repatriate people and some of the flights have been suspended to both Rhodes and Corfu. Overall, today, all I have to say is that this is sweltering hot.

We are in the middle of a big heatwave with temperatures expected to rise to about 110 degrees Fahrenheit. So, this is the third part of an extended heatwave. Where I am, the acropolis of Athens is behind me. Tourists are still visiting the acropolis. Some of them have actually come in from these islands that have been affected.

[02:10:07]

They're all trying to get there before noon, because the acropolis now closes for the hottest part of the day. And this has been going on for over 10 days, simply because it is extremely hard and it's impossible for people to be up there. As you understand, this means that with temperatures like this and strong winds blowing in the areas where the fires are, conditions are going to be extremely difficult today as well.

We expect temperatures to pull down as of Thursday and hopefully this will give firefighters some breathing space as well, Rosemary.

CHURCH: All right. Elinda Labropoulou joining us live from Athens. Many thanks. The Philippines is bracing for the arrival of super typhoon Doksuri that's currently moving through the Pacific Ocean. The country's meteorological service predicts the storm will make landfall on islands in the north and then move towards Taiwan. Taiwan's military has cancelled part of its annual drills in advance of the storm's arrival. As officials say it could be the most damaging typhoon to hit the island in nearly four years.

Well, new missile launches a major anniversary and growing questions about the fate of the U.S. Army private held in North Korea. That's just ahead.

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CHURCH: Welcome back, everyone. North Korea fired off another two ballistic missiles on Monday. The latest in its week-long flurry of missile tests. The missiles flew about 400 kilometers from the Pyongyang area into the waters east of the Korean Peninsula. Just hours after a U.S. nuclear-powered submarine arrived at a South Korean naval base the second time that's happened in the past week.

The U.N. called the launches clear violations of security council resolutions. North Korea is still keeping quiet about the U.S. soldier in its custody but has made one acknowledgement. CNN's Oren Liebermann explains.

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OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: On Monday, the deputy head of United Nations Command in South Korea said a conversation has commenced his words with North Korea-related to private Travis King who has now been in North Korean custody for about a week. That was the first indication that there had been any sort of communication about King and what would happen to him.

But the State Department made clear that that is not a new conversation. It was simply acknowledgement from the North Korean side that there was outreach from the United Nations Command and a desire to speak about King but it didn't go beyond that. There wasn't a back and forth from what we understand having spoken to U.S. officials. United Nations Command reached out and said we'd like to start a conversation about private Travis King or something along those lines. And the North Korean simply acknowledged receipt of that.

[02:15:03]

There was no back and forth. So it wasn't much of a conversation in that sense but there at least was that bit of communication. The State Department made clear on Monday that they have tried repeatedly to reach out to the North Koreans but without success. And that's left the U.S. wondering what is his condition, where is he detained and what's North Korea's intent with him. North Korea hasn't actually acknowledged or said anything, made any statement about detaining private Travis King.

Why they're holding him, where they're holding him, what condition he's in, which means the US has very little information to go on here. Simply that he was supposed to have left the country last Monday. And then instead, he got on a tour and ran into North Korea last Tuesday. Since then, there hasn't been much more information that has come out. What's North Korea's intent with him? That too, very much a mystery.

In addition to not making any statements, they haven't put out any information or really engaged with the U.S. in any way. So, it's unclear what they're looking to do here. And what his condition is. The U.S. still trying to figure all that out. If North Korea wanted to, they could use a U.S. Army soldier as a propaganda coup, but again, they haven't made any statements.

Oren Lieberman, CNN in the Pentagon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: And this comes just ahead of the 70th anniversary of the armistice agreement that ended the fighting on the Korean peninsula. According to North Korean state media, a Chinese delegation will visit the North to mark the occasion, and that group will be led by a member of the Chinese Communist Party's Politburo. This will be the first known visit of any foreign delegation to North Korea since it closed its borders during the COVID pandemic.

And still to come. Russian prison convicts sent to the frontlines in Ukraine and facing unimaginable horrors. We will have the exclusive stories of what happened to two of them.

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CHURCH: Well now on our top story. The searing heat and dangerous wildfires sweeping across Southern Europe.

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CHURCH: The E.U. commissioner for crisis management says it represents a new normal that's here to stay. He made the comment in an interview with CNN where he talked about preparations for the current wildfire season. The E.U. doubled the amount of firefighting plans available and deployed hundreds of firefighters were needed. He says now the world needs to realize it's a problem that's not going away.

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JANEZ LENARCIC, EUROPEAN COMMISSIONER, HUMANITARIAN AID AND CRISIS MANAGEMENT: We need to prepare for what is a new reality. A new normal. And these heat waves will stay with us. We need to prepare for them. We need to anticipate and of course we need to raise awareness of people.

CHURCH: And for more on this and the wildfires burning in Greece, I'm joined by Eleni Myrivili. Advisor for the Arsht-Rock Resilience Center. Welcome. Appreciate you joining us.

ELENI MYRIVILI, ADVISOR, ARSHT-ROCK RESILIENCE CENTER: Nice to be with you. Thank you.

CHURCH: So, we are all witnessing extreme summer temperatures across the northern hemisphere and particularly in Greece where wildfires have prompted historic evacuations. The E.U. commissioner we just heard for crisis management says wildfires sweeping across parts of southern Europe are the new normal that we need to prepare for. Do you agree with that assessment?

MYRIVILI: Well, yes, it's not a matter of whether I agree. The scientists from all around the world have been warning that this was going to be happening for decades now. And so, it's not really a surprise -- heat and extreme weather events.

CHURCH: So, what will extreme summer weather events like this mean for Greece, where you are and its tourism industry going forward as the world watches this historic evacuation, some tourists, of course, lucky to escape with their lives in some instances after a running from the raging wildfires?

MYRIVILI: Well, I think that the different reports that have been written about how climate change is going to affect our economy and specifically, tourism have been discussing. I mean, I think the positive scenario would be that the -- it would be less focused on July and August, and it would be a longer tourist period that would start earlier in the spring and kind of go later into the fall rather than focus on the center of the summer.

I think that would be the positive scenario. I think that in general, and I don't think this has to do only with Greece. I think that the pattern of rising heat in Europe and around the world will probably move the type of vacation that we take away from going and basking in the sun on beaches and go towards different types of trends as far as how we spend our vacation. And I was I was thinking that, you know, just some -- a little bit more than 100 years ago, it was really unusual for us to go and spend time on the beach.

So, I'm wondering if this is going to be in a few decades, something that we slowly stopped doing. And I think that this is, you know, as we were discussing before, this is some serious consideration for countries. And it doesn't only have to do with tourism, it has to do with other aspects of our economies and our livelihoods.

CHURCH: Yes. I guess that would impact many nations, though, in many cities, indeed. Because they wouldn't be the places that people would choose going forward, right?

MYRIVILI: Absolutely. But, you know, again, it's, it's also, you know, our food, how is this -- is this heat and these long periods of drought affecting our agriculture? How is it -- I mean, apart from the -- from these devastating fires that are -- that are depleting our -- the livelihoods of the people that are living around there, and also the biodiversity and the forests that we so much are in need?

How is this heat affecting agriculture? In Europe in general, how is it affecting productivity? We have enormous productivity losses in the -- in the millions -- in projected to be in the billions of euros in the future. So what I'm trying to say is that I think that our -- we have to exactly take this very seriously and try to prepare and we think about how we make ourselves more sustainable.

CHURCH: Right. So, let's look at that what preparations do need to be made by Greece and of course other nations to ensure that they're ready for the next heatwave or wildfires if they want to survive economically on so many different levels?

[02:25:07]

MYRIVILI: So, I am -- I am a specialist in urban heat. And I am -- I'm helping cities prepare for extraordinary heat. So, I -- at this point, my job is to help protect the most vulnerable from big heat waves and extraordinary temperatures as well as trying to build cities that are cooler for the future. I wish I could answer your questions but they are way beyond my knowledge at this point.

CHURCH: Right. All right. Eleni Myrivili, thank you so much for joining us. Do appreciate it.

MYRIVILI: Thank you. Bye-bye.

CHURCH: And we'll be right back.

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CHURCH: It's believed Russia has sent some 15,000 prisoner recruits to the frontlines in eastern Ukraine since the start of February. With little training or combat experience, many of them are dying or returning home badly wounded. CNN's Nick Paton Walsh has obtained rare and exclusive testimony from one surviving prisoner, as well as the mother of a recruit who died just three weeks after deploying who shared horrifying stories from the battlefield. Their names have been changed for their safety.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, since about last fall, it appears the convicts have been a pretty substantial part of Russia's frontline strategy originally recruited by the Wagner Mercenary Group in their tens of thousands. The scheme then taken over by the Russian Ministry of Defense seemingly thinking there was something successful in it that they wanted to own wholesale.

But now we're hearing pretty rare testimony directly from Russians who survived or in one case lost their son to that particular violence and it is indeed shocking to hear quite how appalling the conditions they endure are. Here's what we heard.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WALSH (voiceover): Russia is often cruelest to its own. The bleakest fate, prisoners recruited by the Ministry of Defense basically as cannon fodder. The so-called Storm Z battalions surrendering here of death rates hard to fathom. Here are two rare stories, one of incredible survival, and another of a young and quick death. Told to CNN a great risk from inside Russia. Ex-con Sergey barely made it back.

Now he works two jobs and can't sleep because his ears still ring from shell shock. We first talked when he'd been shot for the second time, but he was still sent back injured. From 600 prisoners recruited with him in October, he says only 170 are alive and only two of them without injury. Sent again, again in waves to attack Ukrainian positions.

[02:30:04]

SERGEI, RUSSIAN PRISONER RECRUIT (through translator): I remember most clearly the last of the nine concussions I had. We attacked RPGs, drones flew at us. Our commander yells on the radio, I don't care, go ahead. Don't come back until you take this position. Two of us found a small hole and dived in there. A drone threw a grenade at us, and it landed in the 30-centimeter gap between us. My friend was covered with shrapnel all over, yet I was untouched somehow. But I lost my sight for five hours.

WALSH (voiceover): He only stayed in hospital that time and got home as doctors made him an orderly. He has nightmares that he is told to be first out of the trench again. But daily life in the trench was a nightmare too of frostbite, hunger and thirst.

SERGEI (through translator): Sometimes we didn't eat for several days. We didn't drink for several days. It was a four-kilometer walk to water and thank God it was winter. We were drinking the snow.

WALSH (TEXT): If a person didn't want to fight, what happened?

SERGEI (through translator): Sometimes the commander reset people. He zeroed them out, killed them. I only saw it once, a fight with a man who stole and killed his own people. I didn't see who of the four people around him shot. But when he tried to escape, a bullet hit him in the back of the head. I saw the head wound, they carried him away.

WALSH (voiceover): For some it never got that far. Andrei (PH) was 20 when he was jailed on drugs offences and 23 when he was sent from prison to the front. This training was fleeting. His mother Yulia said he'd yet to grow into a man still kidding about.

ANDREI, RUSSIAN PRISONER RECRUIT (TEXT): Really, it's sea, sun and sand here, sunburn then, the wind chaps your face and (BLEEP), it rains.

WALSH (voiceover): Like with many prison recruits, he just disappeared. But it was on May the 9th, Victory Day in Russia, when Presidential pomp in Moscow marked the Nazis defeat. Andrei called her the night before to say his unit would attack at dawn.

YULIA, MOTHER OF RUSSIAN PRISONER RECRUIT (TEXT): We were arguing. It is horrible to say, but U already thought of him like he was dead. He left knowing everything. Every day I told him no, no, no. And he didn't listen to me. When he said, "We're going to storm." I wrote him, "Run, forest, run."

WALSH (voiceover): We think these ruins are near where he died up to 60 others Yulia heard, died in the same assault that day. Yulia got nothing, nobody. Just a letter from the military saying Andrei had died the very day he left jail.

JULIA (TEXT): The hardest part was that I was afraid he would kill someone. Because I can live with my son as a drug addict, but with my son as a murderer, it was difficult for me to accept it.

WALSH (voiceover): The horror Russia inflicts on Ukraine, it seems match (INAUDIBLE) [02:33:10] by that dawn at home.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALSH (on camera): Now, Sergei, also told us that there aren't really normal rotations of troops in his positions along the Russian front line where you take those exhausted to the back, allow them to refresh and then send them back into the fight again. You only leave the trenches he was in when you're injured, or when you die.

Utterly shocking conditions and it's really a snapshot on the appalling morale that those Russian units must be experiencing. And that could make Russia particularly fragile if Ukraine's counter offensive gains weight. Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, London.

ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Ukrainian official says the country's air defense repelled a Russian drone attack on the Capitol and the Kyiv Region just hours ago, and all air targets were destroyed. Meantime to the south, the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency says experts have found mines on the site of these Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant, which is currently occupied by Russian forces.

IAEA Chief, Rafael Grossi says the mines were located in a restricted area and were facing away from the site. But called having explosives they're inconsistent with the agency's safety standards and nuclear security guidance. A Ukrainian official tells CNN the country's Defense Intelligence carried out a drone attack on Moscow early Monday morning.

Video from the city showed damage to one building, though it was not immediately clear if it was caused by the drones. Russia's Foreign Ministry is condemning the strikes and says it reserves the right to take tough retaliatory measures. Meantime, Ukraine says Russian drones targeted Ukraine's Port Infrastructure on the Danube River hitting the country's grain stocks.

[02:35:00]

This caused wheat prices to rise sharply on international markets. All this comes as Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is appealing for an end to European restrictions on grain exports via land. Set up to protect the markets from being flooded with cheaper Ukrainian grain.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Any extension of the restrictions is absolutely unacceptable and outright non-European. Europe has the institutional capacity to act more rationally than to close a border for a particular product. We are working very actively with everyone to find a solution that is in line with the spirit of our Europe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: The latest strike on Port Infrastructure comes days after attacks targeted the southern Ukrainian city of Odesa and export facilities there. Meantime, the mayor of Odesa says part of the city's Cathedral is now structurally unsound after being hit by a Russian missile. It was one of more than a dozen cultural sites and architectural monuments said to be damaged by Russian strikes overnight Sunday.

One official slammed Russia for attacking the historic city center of Odesa, which is under UNESCO protection. And U.S. First Lady Jill Biden is in Paris to mark the United States return to UNESCO. Administration officials say her visit is meant to signal that the U.S. is renewing its commitment to international engagement and leadership.

Donald Trump withdrew the U.S. from the U.N. Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization back in 2017. Accusing it of anti-Israel bias and concerned about mounting membership dues. But the Biden administration says UNESCO has made reforms and the benefits it brings to U.S. prestige and National Security are worth the cost.

Well, joining me now from Los Angeles, CNN, European Affairs Commentator, Dominic Thomas. Good to have you with us.

DOMINIC THOMAS, CNN EUROPEAN AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: Thank you for having me on the show, Rosemary. CHURCH: Absolutely. So, Dominic, why is it so important that the United States rejoin UNESCO, particularly at this time when Russia is targeting historic sites in Odesa and, of course, other parts of Ukraine?

THOMAS: Yes, it's such an important moment. And I think the fact that the First Lady is there is especially symbolic because this is not just the First Lady, let's not forget this is Dr. Jill Biden. This is a woman who has committed herself throughout her professional career to education and education, science and culture are the three pillars of this important organization, created in the aftermath of the -- of the Second World War.

And these are important values and that are those also, of her husband's administration. And that set them apart very much from his predecessor, President Trump, who was neither incorporating those in his value system, nor was he committed to the multilateral order.

So, the United States being part of this organization today is especially important when we look at the various areas in which the organization has evolved. And the role that the United States can play alongside the now 194 members of this organization in dealing with global issues and global problems and trying to find solutions together, Rosemary.

CHURCH: And as we've reported, the Odesa Cathedral that was hit by a Russian missile Sunday is now structurally unsound. And it's just one of at least 25 architectural monuments in the historic city center of Odessa that were damaged or destroyed by Russian missiles overnight. Given Odesa is under UNESCO protection as we mentioned. How should the organization respond to this?

THOMAS: Well, this is a, you know, a perfect example of how the military strategy of the Russian Federation is aimed specifically at these monuments and cultural objects as a way of undermining Ukrainian cultural identity and to weaken this particular Nation States.

And the question of cultural and preservation of heritage is at the very heart of the workings of an organization like UNESCO. And UNESCO is important because it is unlike military power, a perfect example of soft power. And an organization like that, like this has the opportunity to apply from different angles pressure on the Russian Federation, in this particular context.

So, that it's not just the European Union, not just the allies, but also pointing out how in many ways these actions also constitute crime and more war crimes if we could -- if we could call them that way. And I think that this ratchets up the pressure and the international exposure on what exactly they are doing in Ukraine at the moment, Rosemary.

[02:40:03]

CHURCH: Exactly right. And I want to ask you this, Dominic, with Russia continuing to target civilians, residential areas, hospitals, and Historic World Heritage Sites. Has the international community shown sufficient outrage for Moscow's actions? What more needs to be done, given Russia continues to be a member of the United Nations UNESCO and, of course, other global organizations while it wages this brutal war on Ukraine, and, of course, its citizens?

THOMAS: Yes, Rosemary. I mean, you are all the way back to where we were talking about this well over a year ago, now. Unfortunately, is the question of what engagement represents and not be, you know, belonging to the European Union, belonging (INAUDIBLE) to NATO. Would constitute the crossings of a red line.

And we've seen evolution there around Sweden and Finland. And but yet to this day, Ukraine has not been admitted to either one of those organizations. And that has therefore limited the ways in which the international allies have been able to respond. And I think that the question remains as to what is going to be the ultimate kind of crossing of the line of what is deemed intolerable, and before greater intervention takes place?

But we see right now tremendous concern about how to go about managing this conflict and attending to the sort of dangers and risks and unpredictability of President Putin. And unfortunately, this is continuing to stifle the ways in which an international response can really be seen as imposing kind of real muscle in this kind of context, Rosemary.

So, unfortunately, we're back at those sorts of dilemmas and questions as to what will be the ultimate red line here?

CHURCH: Yes. Yes, you do have to ask it. Dominic Thomas, many thanks for joining us. Appreciate it.

THOMAS: Thank you.

CHURCH: Astronomers have made a first of its kind discovery, a white dwarf star with two completely different faces. White Dwarfs are remnants of dead stars whose atmospheres are typically dominated by only one light element. But this newly discovered White Dwarf has two, hydrogen on one side and helium on the other.

Researchers say it could be in the middle of a chemical transition. So, they have appropriately named it after the Roman God of Transition, Janus, who's depicted with two faces. And thank you so much for joining us. I'm Rosemary Church, "WORLD SPORT" is coming up next. Then, I'll be back in 15 minutes with more CNN NEWSROOM. Do stick around.

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