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Trump Indicted On Four Counts In 2020 Election Probe; Ukrainian Officials: 10 Drones Shot Down Over Kyiv; Hundreds Of French Nationals Evacuate Niger; Beijing Records Heaviest Rainfall in 140 Years; China Steps Up Typhoon Doksuri Rescue Efforts; Pfizer Expects Updated COVID Vaccine Approval By The End of Month; Study Shows AI Helps Increase Breast Cancer Detection; Great Barrier Reef Stays Off UNESCO's Danger List. Aired 2-3a ET
Aired August 02, 2023 - 02:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[02:00:00]
ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world. I'm Rosemary Church. Just ahead on CNN NEWSROOM. Donald Trump indicted over his efforts to overturn the 2020 election, marking an unprecedented third criminal case against a former U.S. president.
European nationals flee the political turmoil in Niger. The latest on the evacuation flights leaving the West African nation in the wake of its coup.
And rescues and evacuations are underway in Beijing after the remnants of Typhoon Doksuri caused the heaviest rainfall in 114 years.
And we begin with an unprecedented moment in U.S. history as former President Donald Trump is indicted on criminal charges for his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. This indictment now marks the third time Trump has faced criminal charges. In this case, prosecutors alleged Trump knowingly spread prolific lies of fraud, as he remained determined to stay in power despite having lost.
Trump is scheduled for an initial hearing Thursday. That's when he will be formally charged with four counts, including conspiracy to defraud the United States. The special counsel says Trump's repeated lies about the 2020 election fueled the attack on the U.S. Capitol.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACK SMITH, SPECIAL COUNSEL FOR THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE: The attack on our nation's capital on January 6 2021, was an unprecedented assault on the seat of American democracy. It's described in the indictment. It was fueled by lies. Lies by the defendant targeted at obstructing a bedrock function of the U.S. government, the nation's process of collecting, counting and certifying the results of the presidential election.
In this case, my office will seek a speedy trial so that our evidence can be tested in court and judged by a jury of citizens.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHURCH: CNN's Paul Reid has been following developments and has more now from Washington.
PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: This is the third criminal indictment that former President Trump has faced this year. Now in this indictment, Special Counsel Jack Smith alleges that former President Trump after he lost the 2020 election that he pursued a series of actions to try to unlawfully overturn the results of that election. Special Counsel acknowledges that the former president is within his rights to alleged fraud, to pursue litigation, to call for audits.
But they say instead, he pursued an on lawful series of actions that resulted in this criminal indictment. Among them, they say that he and his associates tried to install slates of fake electors to overturn the results in seven states. They also allege the former president and his associates applied a lot of pressure on individual states, on officials within specific states that the former president lost, trying to get them to investigate and overturn the election results in their states.
They also allege that the former President tried to use the Justice Department with the help of a Justice Department official who was named as a coconspirator to try to apply pressure specifically on the state of Georgia. They also allege the former president applied pressure to his own vice president. Of course, this has been widely reported that he really pressed his Vice President Mike Pence not to certify the results of the election for now, President Biden.
Now this all culminated, prosecutors allege in the violence that we saw on January 6. Prosecutors allege that these lies that were being amplified by the former president and his associates helped propel this sense of distrust in the government and in the outcome, which in part resulted in the violence we saw on January 6, but the indictment lays out how then President Trump did not do anything to try to quell that violence.
And in fact, he and his associates double down and their efforts to try to overturn the results of the election. The former president is expected to make his initial court appearance on Thursday. It's unclear if he'll be in person or if he will appear via Zoom. And the investigation continues to special counsel confirmed that on Tuesday. We also know from our own reporting that they will continue to interview witnesses, including a witness that they have scheduled next Monday.
Paul Reid, CNN, Washington.
CHURCH: Joining me now to discuss Trump's latest legal troubles from Los Angeles, Caroline Heldman. Democratic strategist and professor of critical theory and social justice at Occidental College. And from Allentown, Pennsylvania, Charlie Dent. Former U.S. House Republican and executive director of the Aspen Institute Congressional Program. Welcome to you both.
[02:05:11]
CAROLINE HELDMAN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Good to see you, Rosemary.
CHARLIE DENT, FORMER U.S. HOUSE REPUBLICAN: Good evening, Rosemary.
CHAFFETZ: So, Former President Donald Trump indicted on four counts by the January 6 grand jury for trying to overturn the 2020 presidential election, his third criminal indictment. Special Counsel Jack Smith, calling the attack on the Capitol an unprecedented assault on the seat of American democracy fueled by lies. And yet each time Trump's legal woes worsen his support grows along with his campaign funds.
So Charlie, starting with you, from a political perspective, how sustainable is it for Republicans to have Trump remain in this presidential race with such serious criminal charges against him and will still to come?
DENT: Well, I don't think it's very sustainable at all for Donald Trump to remain as a leading contender for the Republican presidential nomination. It's true. Right now, he is in a strong position. Well, while he may be doing better among, you know, the hardcore base elements of the Republican electorate. I think these indictments are absolutely disastrous for the Republican Party in the general election.
I mean, what independent or swing voter is being persuaded to support Donald Trump with these indictments particularly this latest one, I would argue no one. And so, I think that, you know, Trump has kind of hit his ceiling. And I suspect as time wears on, there will be a push. And it's only going to happen if these other Republican presidential candidates, other Republican leaders speak up and explain why Donald Trump is such a great risk not only to the party, but to the country.
That's how they're going to defeat him. When you hear some of these candidates put out statements, more or less talking about, oh, the deep state, the Justice Department's out to get them. They're just -- they're just -- they're just empowering Trump. They're actually -- they're playing for number two. They're not trying to defeat him. So I -- for the life of me can't understand why some of his opponents in this presidential race continue to say this nonsense when they know they need to be attacking him directly and frontally right now.
CHURCH: Yes. It is certainly politically confounding, isn't it? Caroline to you now, how will this latest Trump indictment likely impact Joe Biden's chances in the 2024 presidential election?
HELDMAN: Well, I agree with Charlie that is going to hurt Donald Trump in the general election. If you look at the polling numbers now, we know that Donald Trump is well ahead of the pack. He is averaging about 52 percent compared to his -- the contender behind them at 17 percent, DeSantis. And the more these indictments come down and this is number three out of a likely number four, the more this happens, the more he gets a bounce in the polls.
The more he makes money off of this. We know he spent $40 million already in legal expenses. But if you look at what's happening with undecided voters, with swing voters, with independent voters, these indictments are not playing well with them. So, it appears that the Republican party is on this pretty disastrous course to nominate Donald Trump. But his chances of winning in a general election he lost in 2020.
And I would put them even lower given that these indictments are not playing with those voters in the middle.
CHURCH: And Charlie, one of the most outspoken Trump critics, Chris Christie responded to Trump's criminal indictment late Tuesday saying it represents a stain on the country's history. But Christie, as you point out, appears to be the lone critic in the field of GOP presidential hopefuls. What does that signal to you?
DENT: Well, I also argue that Will Hurd Governor Hutchinson, they both have also been rather critical of Donald Trump. I think Will Hurd has said that Donald --
(CROSSTALK)
CHURCH: But Chris Christie is the only one -- Chris Christie is the only that's going to be in the debate next month. So, I mean, he -- his voice counts in that respect, doesn't it? But why aren't they saying anything?
DENT: Well, because they're afraid. They're all praying -- they're all praying and hoping that Donald Trump will somehow implode that Jack Smith will take care of this problem for them. I think that this is where these candidates are making a mistake. You know, if we can, you know, have a truth serum and basically listen to their private conversations, I suspect every single one of these candidates, you know, knows that Donald Trump is too great a risk to be the nominee.
They are simply afraid to say it because they fear Trump's base. They feel like they're going to antagonize that base. And that's what -- and that's why they're in mortal fear. But if all of these candidates could agree on one thing that Donald Trump is to greater risk for the party in the country, and they all said it repeatedly, I guarantee you Trump's numbers would drop. Now that of course, the other question would be, how do you get rid of, you know, we have about 13 or 14 candidates running for the nomination.
You know, you really only need one or maybe two alternatives. Non- Trump alternatives to Donald Trump.
[02:10:04]
And that's really the issue right now. So, as long as they continue to coddle Donald Trump and talk about him as a -- as a poor victim in this whole matter, they are simply strengthening Trump. I think they all know it, but they there's -- they're praying that somehow someone else will take care of this problem for them. But that's not going to happen.
CHURCH: And Caroline, the Trump campaign reacted predictably calling the indictment, a witch hunt and an interference in the current GOP presidential race which has, as we've discussed, Trump way out in front of his rivals. Do you think he'll continue to benefit politically from his legal woes by increasing his support and raising campaign funds off the back of these indictments or could this eventually catch up with him? Is this just a matter of time?
HELDMAN: I don't think it's going to catch up with him in terms of his core supporters, Rosemary, that the brand loyalty -- it really plays into his messaging. The messaging that he's had for a long time, right, which is, I think, twofold. One is that he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and his supporters would stick with him, which is true, the bodies are piling up on Fifth Avenue and where his supporters.
But the other part of the message is this persecution complex. This plays so well into this idea that Donald Trump is using to really whip up his core supporters by saying, look, I'm being persecuted by a system that is rigged against me. And it's not just rigged against me. It's rigged against you if you listen to him on the stump. So, every time he gets an indictment, it really furthers the messaging of this campaign that is absolutely working in terms of polls and fundraising.
CHURCH: And Charlie, we have already talked about the fact that as Trump's legal woes increased, so too, does his support, and still more indictments are looming, of course. What does it say, though, about this country that so many U.S. voters appear to support and accept an election lie without question? And, of course, those various conspiracy theories that come with that lie?
DENT: Well, I think the larger problem here is that Republic -- a lot of Republican voters have really been hearing largely one narrative from Republicans. And that is the Trump narrative. And again, it comes back to the fact that too many Republican leaders have been quiet. Yes, there had been Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger, and a few others who stood up and spoken up. And now Chris Christie, they have spoken up. But it's far too few.
You cannot defeat the Trump narrative with silence, which is what has been the case for much of the last few years. So, until Republican leaders, you know, really find their voices and stand up and say the truth to the Republican voters. I think that's when things change these. These -- that's why you're called a leader. You can lead. You can actually help change and that they can actually help change the narrative.
But they're not going to change the narrative by ignoring Donald Trump. And just hoping he goes away. He's been able to dominate this narrative for far too long. And that's why we're in the predicament that we're in right now.
CHURCH: We'll see if they find the courage to do that. Caroline Heldman, Charlie Dent, many thanks for joining us. Appreciate it.
DENT: Thank you.
HELDMAN: Thank you, Rosemary. CHURCH: Ukraine's military says they have fought it another Russian assault on the capital Kyiv. Shooting down 10 Russian drones in just the past few hours. Officials in Kyiv say so far there are no reports of injuries or serious damage. Russia is also launching air attacks on the South and the Odesa region. Ukrainian officials say a drone strike damaged a port facility and industrial infrastructure including a grain elevator.
Further east Ukrainian officials say Russian forces shelled a medical facility in Kherson killing a doctor and wounding a nurse. And CNN's Fred Pleitgen brings us the latest on the conflict.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): Ukrainian forces advancing near Bakhmut as Kyiv says they have Moscow's army on the backfoot on nearly all battlefields. And now Russia's capital increasingly in the crosshairs, another drone attack hitting a high-rise building.
Suddenly there was this explosion and we immediately ran, this resident says. There were shards of glass and then smoke rising.
Well, authorities claimed the attack was thwarted. One drone damaged a building already struck two days prior in a complex housing several government offices. Kyiv's message to the Kremlin, the war is coming to them.
I think Moscow will have more and more war on its territory, the presidential adviser says. And this has nothing to do with Ukraine alone. Now this is due to the historical significance of this moment. If you start such a war, you have to suspect that this war will be on your territory.
[02:15:05]
Ukraine is increasingly using drones to strike Russian targets both inside Russia and in Russian occupied territories, both in the air and on the water. After Kyiv have hit the Crimean bridge three weeks ago, Moscow now saying its forces thwarted a naval drone attack on cargo ships and the Black Sea, though Ukraine denies targeting civilian vessels.
The ships of the Russian Navy which escorted the sea transport detected and destroyed all the boats in a timely manner, the spokesman says.
With Russian forces slowly getting pushed back in southern Ukraine, a rare alleged frontline visit by Putin's top General Valery Gerasimov getting updates from commanders in the Zaporizhzhia region, the Russian say. Although it's not clear where exactly and when exactly the video was filmed.
Russia's military leadership trying to portray strength and control even as more Russians feel the war coming even closer.
Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Berlin.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHURCH: Poland says it's beefing up its forces along its border with Belarus as it accuses its neighbor of violating its airspace. Poland's defense minister says additional troops as well as equipment including combat helicopters are being deployed to the border region. It comes after Poland says two Belarusian helicopters flew into Poland low enough to evade radar.
Poland says it informed NATO of the incident Belarus denies it happened. Poland also warily watching Wagner mercenary fighters who are training Belarus' military near the Polish border. There's concerns some might try to cross into Poland disguised as migrants.
Well, still to come. Planes filled with French and Italian nationals took off from Niger as tensions escalate between the E.U. and the new military junta. We will have the latest on the political crisis there.
Plus, hundreds of thousands of people have fled the conflict in Sudan only to find a whole new set of challenges as refugees -- as the rainy season begins.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHURCH: Special flights carrying French and other European nationals are underway in Niger after last week's military coup. An Italian plane carrying 87 passengers including 21 Americans landed hours ago in Rome. The foreign ministry is not calling it an evacuation but rather a special flight for those wanting to leave. Niger's former colonial power France sent two jumbo jets to the Capitol Tuesday and flew several 100 people out of the country.
[02:20:03]
The first of those planes landed in Paris several hours ago. It's not clear if French soldiers will be leaving Niger as well. France denies its planning any military intervention to restore Niger's ousted president, but supporters of the coup still believe France has an outsized almost Imperial influence over their country. CNN's Larry Madowo has more now from Nairobi.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): The first evacuation flights took off from Niger on Tuesday in the wake of the military coup last week. Carrying French and other E.U. member states citizens and their immediate families. The French embassy asked them to be at the airport with one bag and to bring food and water in case it's a long wait. The evacuation of several 100 people is expected to be completed in 24 hours
CATHERINE COLONNA, FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): There were serious and violent incidents which were organized and prepared. Targeting our embassy on Sunday, we do not want to take any risks with the security of the French people. MADOWO (voiceover): Supporters of the military junta attack the French Embassy in the capital in the Niamey, rallying against Frances post- colonial influence there.
Some waving Russian flags in several pro-military protests, signaling a possible shift towards other coup leaders in West Africa that have used Russian assistance in the fight against extremists. Neighboring Mali and Burkina Faso fully supporting Niger's coup leaders.
RIMTALBA JEAN EMMANUEL OUEDRAOGO, BURKINA FASO GOVERNMENT SPOKESPERSON (through translator): The transitional governments of Burkina Faso and Mali warned that any military intervention against Niger is tantamount to a declaration of war against Burkina Faso and Mali.
MADOWO (voiceover): hit by a wave of military coos in the region in recent years, the West African leaders of ECOWAS on Sunday given Nigerian military one week to release and reinstate ousted President Mohamed Bazoum and threatened to use force.
The West African economic bloc imposed sanctions in Niger while France and the E.U. cut economic aid. The United States which is yet to label it as a coup, suspended military cooperation, but hasn't withdrawn troops. Niger, one of the world's poorest nations is also one of the major producers of uranium. Like its neighbors, it has been struggling with the rise of Islamist extremists.
IBRAHIM YAHAYA IBRAHIM, CONSULTING ANALYST, SAHEL, INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP: If you look at all the countries that surrounds Niger, they have all are facing insecurity problems. And Niger, which was considered as, you know, a sort of islands, you know, in this -- in the middle of -- all this insecurity has been holding up well.
MADOWO (voiceover): Presidential guard and coup leader General Abdourahamane Tiani claims the degradation of the security situation was his motive to take over the government. He hasn't explained what a change of strategy in fighting the insurgency would mean to 1500 French and 1000 American soldiers stationed there. The anti-French sentiment is not the main driver of the coup or its supporters, experts and residents say but remains a rallying point.
ALMOCTAR BOUKARI, NIAMEY RESIDENT (through translator): As an African, I can say that all the problems that Africans are experiencing in Niger, in Africa, it's France. That's at the heart of it. It's France that's at the root of our suffering.
MADOWO (voiceover): Larry Madowo, CNN, Nairobi.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHURCH: Niger supplies about five percent of the world's uranium critical for nuclear power. And it's the European Union's number two supplier but the E.U.'s nuclear power supply agency Euratom says even if Niger cuts off exports, it won't impact nuclear power production at least for a while. Euratom says European utilities have enough uranium stockpile to last about three years. The Norwegian Refugee Council is suspending all its humanitarian work in Sudan's capital Khartoum and the Darfur region as fighting in the country grinds on. The aid group calls it a heartbreaking decision, but says it had no other choice amid more than three months of violence between the Sudanese army and the rival rapid support forces. It has moved operations to other regions in Sudan and across the western border to Chad which has taken in more than 300,000 Sudanese refugees since the conflict began.
And even after they make it across the border into Chad, Sudanese refugees are confronted with other life-threatening challenges. On top of suffering loss and trauma from fleeing the war, many face hunger and now flooding in their makeshift camps.
CNN's Zain Asher has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ZAIN ASHER, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR (voiceover): A storm at a refugee camp in Chad double trouble for the Sudanese living here.
[02:25:04]
Victims of the latest refugee crisis in Africa, fleeing fighting between the Sudanese army and the RSF. The Rapid Support Forces with plastic bags for carpets sticks for structure, and nylon for shelter, they stand no chance against the cold.
NAJIMUDDIN, SUDANESE REFUGEE IN CHARD (through translator): Since the previous rainfalls, some people do not even have a tarpaulin sheet to cover them from rain. Today, the situation is very difficult, because there's too much wind, there's no food available, the conditions are extremely difficult. And even the tents have not been set up well, the water seeps into them.
ASHER (voiceover): And that children had it worse.
NAFISA, SUDANESE REFUGEE IN CHAD (through translator): My son is sick with inflammation. And since we fled, we've been sitting like this with water over our heads.
ASHER (voiceover): The top of Lenin branches on the ground are what's left of this woman's refugee home. Devastated and alone, she can't hold back the tears.
ISLAM, SUDANESE REFUGEE IN CHAD (through translator): This is the humiliation that we experiencing. My elder brothers would have built us houses to live in if they were alive.
ASHER (voiceover): Since conflict escalated in Sudan four months ago, more than 2.6 million people have been displaced within Sudan and more than 800,000 have fled the country, creating one of the fastest growing refugee crisis in the world.
Zain Asher, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHURCH: Still the come. China's President orders rescue crews in China to save those caught up in record flooding in the wake of a typhoon.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHURCH: Beijing has recorded its heaviest rainfall since records began 140 years ago. Thanks to the remnants of Typhoon Doksuri. It's one of the strongest storms to hit China's mainland in recent times. Doksuri left a path of destruction in its wake. Now crews are mounting rescue missions as you see here where a driver I saved from powerful floodwaters by a helicopter team.
[02:30:00]
And CNNs, Anna Coren joins me now with more from Hong Kong. So Anna, Typhoon Doksuri, its hit China very hard, hasn't it? What is the latest on these rescue efforts and evacuations?
COREN: Yeah, absolutely, Rosemary. The former super typhoon continues to wreak havoc in China, as you say, dumping the heaviest rainfall over Beijing ever recorded in 140 years.
Heavy rains began pummeling the capital and surrounding areas last Saturday, with the average rainfall for the month of July falling on Beijing in just 40 hours. Now, as a result, and as you can see from these pictures, there was severe flooding that washed away cars, damaged buildings and roads, with many residents needing to be evacuated. Unfortunately, not everyone escaped. At least 11 people were killed. 13 are still missing, including two rescue workers.
In neighboring Hebei province, over 800,000 people were evacuated. Authorities say nine people there were killed, six are still missing. State media reports that maximum rainfall was recorded in 10 weather stations in Hebei province, also breaking historical records.
Now Rosemary, the good news is that rainfall in Beijing and Hebei is expected to ease today while the storm moves towards Northeastern China. We've heard from the Chinese leader, Xi Jinping, he's called for every effort to rescue those lost or trapped by the rains.
As we know, China has been experiencing extreme weather and posting record temperatures this summer, which scientists believe have been exacerbated by climate change. Now, the bad news, and unfortunately there is bad news, is that there is another typhoon heading towards China. That's called Typhoon Khanun. It's the sixth storm this year. It is powerful and slow-moving. Currently, it's lashing Japan. And so far, according to authorities, one person has been killed. It's knocked out power to one-third of homes in Okinawa.
Phone and internet connections have been disrupted. The airport in Okinawa's capital city has been closed now for a second day. Okinawa, as we know, is home to the majority of U.S. forces that are based in Japan.
This typhoon, Rosemary, is expected to move towards China and Taiwan by Friday. Authorities obviously are bracing themselves for more havoc.
CHURCH: Yeah, absolutely. Anna Coren, thank you so much for keeping a close eye on that. Joining us live from Hong Kong.
Well, drug maker Pfizer expects that its newly updated COVID-19 vaccine will be approved by regulators by the end of the month. The company's CEO says they are ready with the product and hope to roll out the vaccine in September. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration recommended in June that new vaccines going out in the coming months should target an Omicron sub-variant. But before anyone can get the shots, the FDA and U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention will have to sign off on it, of course.
Well, artificial intelligence could soon help doctors more effectively detect breast cancer. A study in the journal, the Lancet Oncology, shows scans read by a radiologist, along with help from AI, found 20 percent more cancers. The combination could cut in half the workload for doctors reading mammograms. Researchers admit there's still a lot of work to be done, but the study shows AI is safe to use in breast cancer detection.
Well, still to come, why experts say Australia's Great Barrier Reef is not "in danger," at least not yet. I'll ask a Greenpeace executive about that next.
[02:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHURCH: In a surprise move, the UNESCO World Heritage Committee has decided not to add Australia's Great Reef to its list of sites in danger. That's despite overwhelming scientific evidence that suggests the world's biggest coral reef ecosystem is at risk of another mass bleaching in the months ahead. The UN agencies says the Australian government has made significant progress, but asked for an update by February. Scientists warned there's little chance of radical improvement in just six months, especially since the arrival of El Nino which typically makes oceans hotter.
And joining me now from Suva, Fiji is David Ritter. He is the CEO of Greenpeace Australia Pacific. Appreciate you joining us
DAVID RITTER, CEO, GREENPEACE AUSTRALIA PACIFIC: Good to be with you.
CHURCH: So yet again Australia's Great Barrier Reef will not be added to the list of World Heritage Sites deemed In danger by UNESCO after this panel selected Venice instead for that list. What's your reaction to that decision?
RITTER: Well, I think fundamentally the point is that there is overwhelming scientific evidence that the Great Barrier Reef is in danger And the really significant thing about what UNESCO has done today is that they have -- they have focused on the primary threat to the Great Barrier Reef, which is climate change.
We know that climate change is driven primarily by coal, oil and gas, the extraction and burning of coal, oil and gas. And what UNESCO has done is said that the Australian government needs to change its regulatory and policy settings, so that Australia is in line with what is necessary to keep global warming to under 1.5 degrees to give the Great Barrier Reef a fighting chance. Now that's a really significant statement by UNESCO.
[02:40:00]
CHURCH: Interesting, because of course we know that the Australian government has previously lobbied hard against UNESCO including the Great Barrier Reef on its endanger list, because they didn't want the listing to impact tourism to that destination. That's worth a lot of money for Australia. So how much did that play a part in the decision this time around do you think? And was UNESCO just taking the word of the government here?
RITTER: Well look, I think we have seen that UNESCO is a Political process at times, but the really significant opportunity for the Australian government here is to be good to its word and to have core (inaudible) in place, to introduce a framework where there is a commitment to doing what is necessary to give the Great Barrier Reef a fighting chance. And that's really no more expansion of coal, oil or gas. No more billions of dollars of subsidies to coal and gas.
You know projects like for example, the massive wood side proposal that would be the largest greenhouse gas emitting project to come forward in Australia, it simply cannot go ahead if we're going to be consistent with what is necessary to keep global warming under 1.5 degrees and give Australia -- give the Great Barrier Reef a fighting chance.
You know, let's remember here that what Australia does really matters on the world scale, because Australia is the third largest exporter of fossil fuels. So you know, really what's significant here is there is an opportunity for this government to distance itself from the appalling record of Australian governments past in not acting and to do the right thing by our Great Barrier Reef. That means no more expansion of coal, oil and gas.
CHURCH: And why is it so important for UNESCO to put Australia's Great Barrier Reef on that endanger list? And why do you say the Reef's dangers are more important than perhaps what the Italian city of Venice is facing right now.
RITTER: Well, there should be no trading off of the world's treasures. All of the world's treasures should be protected. But the truth is that all of the treasures of the world, and that includes all the reefs of the world are in jeopardy from climate change. It is the meta threat. And I suppose, what's really significant is not the words but the actions. And what UNESCO has called for here really fundamentally is action. By the Australian government, action to not expand coal, oil and gas is what is necessary.
This is impliciting what UNESCO has said, which is that the Australian government needs to have policies in line with what is necessary to keep global warming under 1.5 degrees. Now, that is what is needed here and that action is far more significant than any words on a page.
CHURCH: So, what do you think will happen come February?
RITTER: Well, I think it's very difficult to predict what will happen, but we know what should happen. And what should happen is that the Australian government should seize the moment. I mean we'd love in this -- in the country of Australia, the Great Barrier Reef, and people the world over love reefs. A billion people live near reefs. Hundreds of millions of people depend on reefs for their livelihood. I'm in the Pacific at the moment where Pacific people have had some of the least to do with what the causes of global warming and are now most on the sharp end of the climate emergency.
So what should happen is that the Australian government should do the right thing by the Great Barrier Reef, the right thing by the Australian people, the right thing by our Pacific neighborhood, and that is to bring in rig policies and laws to ensure that Australia is aligned with what is necessary to keep global warming under 1.5 degrees. That means no terrible new mega projects like Woodside's massive new gas mines and it means no new coal, oil and gas. That is the opportunity that is there.
CHURCH: David Ritter, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate it.
RITTER: Thanks for your time.
CHURCH: Well, the mystery is surrounding a large metallic cylinder that washed up on a beach in Western Australia has been solved. The Australian Space Agency says it belongs to India, and officials there confirmed its debris from a solar satellite vehicle it launched in the past. Curious residents and online sleuths had a host of theories about what the object might be when it was initially found last month. Indian officials say they have no plans to get it back.
And thanks so much for joining us. I'm Rosemary Church. World Sport is coming up next and I'll be back at the top of the hour. Thank you.
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