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Interview With Asa Hutchinson About Trump Indictments And GOP Primary Race; Could Trump Serve As President If Convicted?; Ukraine Strikes Hit Bridges Between Crimea And Kherson; Trump Leads GOP In Iowa; History Of Black Television In Science Fiction, Horror And Fantasy. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired August 06, 2023 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN ANCHOR: Special counsel Jack Smith requested a protective order after Trump posted this on social media Friday evening, saying, quote, "If you go after me, I'm coming after you." Smith wants the judge to limit Trump and his legal team from publicly discussing sensitive evidence. Trump's legal team says it will fight the protective order in his election interference case. Trump says his attorneys will also ask the federal judge to recuse herself from that case, and he wants a change of venue as well.

One of Trump's GOP rivals in the White House race says moving the trial out of Washington, D.C. is not warranted.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I believe jurors can be fair. I believe in the American people, and I believe in the fact that jurors will listen fairly and impartially. And for people who say they won't, Dana, those are people who believe only in themselves, like Donald Trump, and not the American people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Former Vice President Mike Pence says he has no plans to testify in a federal trial of Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election, but he says he will comply with the law if called to be a witness.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The day before January 6th, if memory serves, they came back, his lawyers did, and said we want you to reject votes outright. This -- they were asking me to overturn the election. I had no right to overturn the election.

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: You can say right here that you will rule out voting for Donald Trump again for president?

PENCE: Dana, I will tell you, I don't think we'll have to make that decision. BASH: What if you do?

PENCE: I'm confident I'll be able to support the Republican nominee, especially if it's me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Let's get some reaction now from one of the contenders vying for the Republican nomination. Joining us live from Iowa, Republican presidential candidate, former governor of Arkansas, Asa Hutchinson.

Governor, thanks so much for being with us. We appreciate it. Let's just get right to it if we can. This week -- this past week, as you heard, Trump, the leader of the Republican Party, the current frontrunner for the GOP nomination, was indicted on charges of attempting to overthrow the 2020 election. He traveled to Washington for his arraignment. And since then, he's been issuing these threats on social media, saying, if you go after me, I'm coming after you.

He described the special counsel, Jack Smith, as deranged. He's now attacking the judge handling the case, saying there's no way he can get a fair trial from her. How do you think the judge should handle this situation? Does he need to be issued a warning, do you think?

ASA HUTCHINSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I think she will, and of course there's a whole trough of evidence that's going to be turned over to the defense which will show and share with Donald Trump. And what he does with that information is a legitimate question. Obviously if he sees something to his political advantage, he's going to put it out on social media, and that's a concern if it's used to intimidate witnesses.

You know, the last statement, I'm not sure who that was focused on, and they're going to have to explain that. It could be his political competitors in this race or a member of Congress, if you criticize me, I'm going to go after you. So it's both a political threat but also who knows where else he intended that to go?

ACOSTA: Yes. But he said that, he said that on social media about a day after he was arraigned in federal court in Washington. I mean it doesn't take too much of an imagination to infer he was directing that at people involved in the case.

HUTCHINSON: Well, certainly, and that's why, you know, the judge will be concerned about it. Again, if you look at it from an evidentiary standpoint, discovery is not intended to be put out into the media. Now there's two defense strategies. One, they want to keep the public relations, which is that they believe Donald Trump has been victimized. He's been picked on.

I'm here in Iowa. There's a sense among Republicans that that's exactly the case. So there's sympathy for him. And then secondly, a part of their defense is that it's free speech, that he had a political rally there that he's entitled to. And so this is not easy for the prosecution. It's a heavy burden of proof as it should be. And so that's the defense strategy, and of course the prosecution is going to really have to show this goes beyond political speech if they're going to make their case.

ACOSTA: And let me ask you about what Trump said at this rally last night in South Carolina. He was railing against the indictment. Let's listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Virtually every poll we're kicking Biden's ass, and that's the problem. If I wasn't, we wouldn't be under investigation by deranged Jack Smith. He's a deranged human being. You take a look at that face you say that guy is a sick man. There's something wrong with him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Governor Hutchinson, you worked at both the federal and the state level. I mean, I just wonder what your thoughts are on the current Republican frontrunner, the former president, railing against the special counsel in that fashion, a Justice Department employee.

[18:05:04]

And based on this behavior, I'm just kind of curious how you could even possibly contemplate supporting him as the nominee of the Republican Party based on how he's acting right now.

HUTCHINSON: Well, he's acted like he has before, and it's always an affront to him. He's always the victim. And here you have the importance of our justice system at stake, and he attacks it left and right. And the bottom line is that this case is going to be resolved based upon the facts and the law that's presented in the courtroom. Then the public relations goes out the window.

Then all of his bluster goes out the window and it's determined based upon the case that is presented. I don't think it's a good defense strategy to be attacking either the judge or the jury pool in Washington, D.C., or the prosecutor. It doesn't make sense, but he's playing to his crowd because he's intertwined both his campaign with his legal defense strategy. And so the voters are going to have to sort this through.

It's not easy for them, and he's making it complicated for them. And so we're counting on the voters to make sure they put their mind both to the evidence in the trial but also looking at how we can better support and reform our criminal justice system to make it work better.

ACOSTA: Yes, and let me ask you about the race. Why do you think your other Republican opponents aren't seizing on these indictments, hitting Trump harder? It sounds like a lot of these other GOP rivals in the field, they're sort of tiptoeing around, really going after the former president. You're one of the exceptions. Former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie is one of the exceptions.

But many of the others, they really stop short of really going after the former president on these indictments. And it's just -- it's kind of astounding to somebody, you know, you're speaking with right now who's covered a lot of presidential campaigns. Typically, you know, if a candidate gets indicted, the other candidates in the race pound him. Why isn't that happening?

HUTCHINSON: Well, it's, again, because of the victimization that Donald Trump has portrayed himself as being the result of the criminal justice system that is tainted against him. And the trust relationship --

ACOSTA: Why do people fall for that, I guess, if you don't mind me interrupting.

(CROSSTALK)

ACOSTA: You know, why are people falling for that? He's not -- what is he the victim of? He's not the victim of anything.

HUTCHINSON: Well, because -- well, I agree. He brought this on himself. But you're asking me about the voters and why it's difficult. It starts with Alvin Bragg that brought a questionable case. That looked like political influence in the case and politically motivated. And so that starts tainting the prosecutions. And so it's not justified. You know, the former president has brought this on himself. He's going to be held accountable in a court of law on it.

But it's a challenge with the Republican voters because they see a justice system that needs changing, and that's why I support the FBI, I support the criminal justice system, but I also want to see it reformed. That's why I sent a whole package of reform measures that focuses their jurisdiction more, brings in more accountability and transparency. That's the right way to approach it.

There are challenges, but it should be separated from the case that Donald Trump faces. He's going to have to answer in a court of law, and I just simply make that case to the voters as I talk to them. And I think these things will change as we go further into the campaign season.

ACOSTA: And in an interview with NPR this past week, you said you were optimistic that Trump's grip on the GOP could loosen. Let's show that poll, though, that shows how things are going in Iowa. A new poll of Iowa Republicans who say they're voting for Trump shows more than half of them are only considering him. He's also leading his next closest rival, Ron DeSantis, by double digits in that state.

You're out there in Iowa. You're talking to people out there. When you talk to them, does the name Trump come up? Are they talking about other things? What makes you think you can change the dynamic there in Iowa?

HUTCHINSON: I talked to hundreds of Iowa voters tonight, incredible event. And I asked them, one, do you want Donald Trump on the debate stage? Most of them say yes because they want to see them all together and how they respond to each other. And they take -- they know they'll be asked questions about the case itself. They want to know how he responds to that. And then secondly, there's a lot of Trump support, absolutely, and

there's a sense whether they're for Trump or somebody else, that the system has not treated him fairly. But they also recognize they need to move away. That's a very gradual process. And so this is going to be, you know, a pot coming to a boil over time, and it's going to take the debate.

[18:10:02]

It's going to take a lot of examination by Iowa voters really to sort through who they're going to support. What was encouraging to me tonight is the number of Iowans that had stickers on "I'm an undecided Iowa voter." There's a whole bunch of those stickers that are out there.

ACOSTA: And let's turn to the first Republican primary debate that's happening later this month. You said you're close to halfway to reaching the required donor threshold. Are we going to see you on that debate stage? Are you going to be able to make it?

HUTCHINSON: I am thanks to the support of people all across the country. It's Asa2024.com. A dollar helps us get on the debate stage. But we're making progress every day. We've got a lot of things planned in the coming weeks to make sure that we get there. People expect me on the debate stage. I want to be able to speak to the issues that we've talked about today. It's important for them to hear that.

ACOSTA: Is there something wrong with the debate qualification process in your party if Donald Trump, who has three indictments hanging over his head, can make the debate stage and somebody like yourself, who's been the governor of the state of Arkansas, can't get on the debate stage? That doesn't sound right.

HUTCHINSON: Well, I've made it clear I don't -- yes, well, it doesn't sound right. I don't like the requirements in place, but we have to abide by them. And it's an RNC debate. So we've got to get to 40,000. I've already complied with the requirement in polling numbers. So we've made the national polling requirements. We've just got to get the number of donors to qualify. And then you've got to sign a pledge as well.

So a lot of restrictions to get on that debate, but it's important to be there. Iowans and New Hampshire folks are looking at that debate to start separating the candidates. So everything is wide open until that time.

ACOSTA: You know, Governor, I wonder if you've had conversations with members of your party, leaders in your party, and had any kind of discussion about what happens if Trump is convicted and sentenced to prison around the time of next year's Republican convention. Has anybody thought this through inside the party? What would the party do at that point if all of a sudden your nominee is hauled off to jail?

HUTCHINSON: Well, I've thought it through, and that's why I asked for an exception. I don't want to sign a pledge that says I'm going to support somebody who's been convicted of serious crimes. But, you know, they're not trying to get in the middle of that. And of course there's a constitutional limitation on doesn't disqualify him.

I believe he is morally disqualified, and he ought to withdraw. But the RNC does not share that view, and so we could be in a real predicament. And that's why Donald Trump wants to postpone all these trials until after the election. And it's going to be up to the judge to say not just the defendant has the right to a speedy trial, but the government does as well, and the public does. That speedy trial requirement is for the public at large that we have speedy access to our justice system. And so it's up to the judges. I hope it's resolved before the election is over with.

ACOSTA: All right. I guess we'll have to see if that happens. All right. Good luck tonight at the event there in Cedar Rapids.

Former Governor Asa Hutchinson, thanks so much for your time. We appreciate it.

HUTCHINSON: Thank you, Jim. Good to be with you.

ACOSTA: All right. Good to be with you.

In the meantime, it's a real possibility. What happens if former President Trump returns to the White House and then gets convicted? That's another possibility, I suppose. We'll ask a legal expert about that, if Trump could actually serve his term.

Plus, a father of two identified as one of three Americans killed recently while fighting in Ukraine. What we're learning about him next.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:17:55]

ACOSTA: As former President Trump faces a range of criminal charges related to 2020 election subversions, many Americans may be wondering could he serve as president if convicted?

Let's get some answers to that and more from one of the country's leading experts on election law. Rick Hasen joins us now. He's professor and the director of Safeguarding Democracy Project at the UCLA School of Law.

So, Rick, great to see you. This is a question that's on a lot of Americans' minds. I mean, could he somehow assume the Oval Office even after being convicted? I was talking to former Governor Asa Hutchinson about this in a similar fashion a few moments ago. You know, what happens if Trump is convicted and sentenced to jail, and this happens right around the Republican nomination, but I supposed it could happen before inauguration, and then we ask that question, too. What if? Can he go into the Oval Office? RICHARD HASEN, SAFEGUARDING DEMOCRACY PROJECT, UCLA SCHOOL OF LAW:

Well, the first thing to say is that the Constitution has very few requirements to be president. You have to be 35, natural born citizen. You have to be a resident of the United States for a certain period of time. That's it. So, you know, Trump lives in Florida. If he were a convicted felon, he wouldn't be able to vote for himself but nothing in the Constitution says he can't serve.

ACOSTA: Yes, and Rick, you know, the other question that has come up and, you know, I've talked to a former Trump adviser about this, who has said all -- you know, all they want to do is just push these cases past the election because in that case he could conceivably pardon himself or perhaps move people out of the Justice Department, appoint a new attorney general, get rid of the special counsel, and so on. Could he do those sorts of things?

HASEN: Well, there's one thing in between that, which is that some people have already taken the position that Trump is not eligible to serve as president because there's a pardon in Constitution in the 14th Amendment and Section Three that says that people who have participated in an insurrection aren't eligible to serve.

There's all kinds of legal and factual questions about whether this applies to Trump. But already there are lawsuits throughout around the country trying to keep Trump off the ballot on this basis.

[18:20:05]

So whether or not he's convicted, there's this other hurdle, not getting a lot of attention now, but I think we're going to hear a lot about it over the next year. If he does make it into office, if he is qualified to serve, it's an uncertain question as to whether or not he could pardon himself. He certainly has a lot of power over the Justice Department, and we've been reading stories about how there are plans to try to, you know, politicize the Justice Department so that it would be more political and so that it could potentially even go after Trump's enemies, not only provide a basis for him to end any ongoing prosecutions that might still be going after he might assume office.

ACOSTA: And, Rick, let's talk about some of these big headlines from the latest Trump indictment on these election subversion charges. What do you make of this argument from the Trump legal team that he was just exercising his right to free speech in contesting the election results?

HASEN: Yes. I mean, I think the free speech argument is a canard. You know, if he would have said to Mike Pence, vote for -- you know, throw out the votes from Michigan, or I'm going to break both of your legs, he'd be using speech to do that, but everyone would see that as a potential crime. It doesn't matter that he's using words. It doesn't matter what he believes. And it's the same kind of thing with the claims that are going on here.

He's not being prosecuted for his beliefs. He's not being prosecuted for exercising the right to free speech, but lots of crimes are committed using words. Bribery, extortion, fraud. And so just the fact that he's using words does not give him a get-out-of-jail free card under the First Amendment.

ACOSTA: Right. I mean, that was one of the arguments that the Trump attorney, John Lauro, was making on the Sunday talk shows earlier today that when Trump was going to the Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger to ask him to find the votes to win the state of Georgia, that he was just speaking in an aspirational sense. He was just asking. Do you buy that?

HASEN: Well, it's like a bank robber with a gun who is just asking for money while holding a gun, you know, to a bank teller. You know, I don't think, again, that a free speech defense is going to work. I think if there are charges in Georgia, and I should say if there are state charges, Trump would not be able to pardon himself from state charges even if he could pardon himself from federal charges.

You know, if there is a trial in Georgia, it's likely going to turn on what Trump meant when he asked Raffensperger to find 11,780 votes, whether that was kind of a code for engaging in subversion of the election or it was just him honestly looking for a way for the ballots to be recounted or something like that. And that could be a fact question that a jury would have to decide.

ACOSTA: And just a quick final -- I know you work for the Safeguarding Democracy Project there at UCLA. What becomes of American democracy if Trump becomes the nominee, if he somehow becomes president of the United States? Is that something you worry about?

HASEN: Well, what I'm worried about is that people tried in 2020 to subvert our elections, and if there is no accountability, people are going to try it again in a future election. So the question is if there's something that can be done to better safeguard our American democracy?

ACOSTA: All right. Rick Hasen, thank you very much for your time. We appreciate it.

HASEN: Thank you.

ACOSTA: All right. Coming up, Ukraine strikes two important bridges that are critical to Russia, and a Kremlin-backed official says advanced missiles supplied by the U.K. were used in the attack. CNN is in Ukraine next.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:28:26]

ACOSTA: A massive fire is burning at this recycling center in Albuquerque, New Mexico. You can see the thick, black smoke billowing into the sky. Emergency crews are on the scene. But fire officials say the building and the vehicles are still burning. You can see that video right there. It is just raging. And you can see some fire trucks on the scene. That fire is definitely not out of control and we'll bring you more information as it comes in. We'll keep an eye on that. In the meantime, we are learning more tonight about one of the three

Americans killed recently while fighting in Ukraine. The family of Andrew Webber confirming to CNN that the father of two died last Saturday as a volunteer who went to Ukraine to fight the Russians. Andrew was a graduate of West Point Military Academy and Northwestern Law School. He is survived by his wife Dede and his daughters Gwen and Vera in Seattle.

The two other two fallen Americans have not been identified but the State Department says it is in touch with their families. We're also following multiple explosions at a critical road bridge linking Crimea to Russian-occupied Ukraine. Russia says the explosions were caused by Ukrainian missiles supplied by the U.K. Ukraine acknowledged the strikes but didn't say whether the missiles were British-supplied.

Russia says it intercepted nine of the 12 missiles fired, and CNN's chief international security correspondent Nick Paton Walsh is in Ukraine with more.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Jim, these two bridges hit that run from Crimea, the peninsula occupied by Russia in 2014, and the Zaporizhzhia region, Kherson as well, recently occupied them in the last war, the Chonhar and Henichesk, and they're vital parts of both the civilian and military infrastructure.

[18:30:05]

Russian officials kind of trying to brush the damage off, really, saying they'll be functional again by the end of the day and that they have another one anyway running to the west of those. But still this is again pinpoint strikes by Ukrainian missiles. Russian officials suggesting those were indeed British supplies Storm Shadow missiles. They have some sort of stealth capabilities to get through air defenses, although the Russians suggesting they took down a significant number of those, indeed five.

But the pinpoint nature of these strikes against Russian infrastructure is key because it's about disrupting supply routes, particularly from the military stronghold of Crimea up towards Zaporizhzhia's western area near where I'm standing. It is essentially the focus of this latest thrust of Ukraine's counteroffensive. They want to move down to cut Crimea off from the rest of Russian-occupied territory.

It's very slow going but the bid I think here is that these resupply routes can be cut by these pinpointed strikes. Quite how successful these strikes have been we will know possibly in the days or weeks ahead if indeed they do impact Russia's supply lines. But sometimes these attacks presage an uptick in Ukrainian activity. Unclear at this point. But it caps an awful 72 hours of tit-for-tat strikes going back and forth between Ukraine admitting that some military targets were, indeed, hit in the last 24 hours.

Some perhaps by hypersonic missiles launched by Russia and two significant drone attacks by Ukraine on the water against a Russian oil cargo ship, a Russian amphibious assault ship. Remarkable targeting frankly by Kyiv using technology that's pretty new. But still the focus really now on the counteroffensive and whether or not these pinpoint strikes against Russian infrastructure can try and give Ukraine an edge in that -- Jim.

ACOSTA: All right. Nick Paton Walsh, thanks very much.

Joining us now is retired U.S. Army General Mark Hertling.

General Hertling, great to see you as always. What's the significance of Ukraine going after these bridges near Crimea? I mean, we've heard time and again that Ukraine would love to get Crimea back. Is that what this is about?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Partly, Jim. And Nick just mentioned the targeting. You know, many people don't understand that in the military, there is such a thing as a targeting process. What kind of targets are you going after? How will it affect the battlefield? What kind of things do you need to do to literally restrain your enemy from doing the kinds of things he wants to do? And that's what's occurring here.

When you're talking about the offensive operations of Ukrainian forces in the southeast, they are attempting to liberate the two provinces of Kherson and Zaporizhzhia. As you look at the map that you have posted on the screen right now, a lot of the supplies are coming into those two provinces where the red area is from Crimea. Others are coming from a small town across the border in Russia called Rostov-on-Don along a major supply route, or what the military would call a line of communication.

When you interrupt that passage of supplies, whether it be ammunition, food, resupply, personnel, equipment, arms, all of those things will hinder the defensive operations of Russia. And that's what I believe the Ukrainian main effort is, is not only to continue their offensive operation in a smaller way than anticipated and perhaps a little bit slower, but they're doing it by literally taking away the capability of Ukraine to reinforce -- excuse me -- Russia to reinforce and resupply their forces on the frontlines. This is all critical.

ACOSTA: Yes, and Russia is saying Ukraine used British-supplied missiles to carry out these strikes. Why is that important?

HERTLING: Yes, it's important, the Storm Shadow missile that Nick just mentioned, it's very different than some of the other missiles that Ukraine has been firing. Primarily it's not fired from the ground up into the air like a ballistic missile and then lands on a target somewhere down in enemy territory. It's shot from a Ukrainian aircraft, and it's a cruise missile. That means it has different types of guidance systems, GPS, inertial guidance or terrain following, so it's a radar that follows the map of the earth, close to 100 to 200 meters above the ground.

When you have that, it's difficult to detect by the Russians. It's also very difficult to shoot down. The key thing also is it has a range of about 150 miles, Jim. So this can hit those major ammo dumps, those resupply lines, the railroad transport lines or the highways that most artillery can't hit. And you can hit it from behind the Ukrainian lines. So the airplanes that shoot them stay safe.

[18:35:02]

They're not engaged by Russian air defense, and they can shoot from longer distances to hit the supply lines that are affecting the Russian military operations.

ACOSTA: Yes, and, General, this caught my eye yesterday. We were talking about it a little yesterday. I'm sure this caught your eye as well. We want to look at this video obtained by CNN that shows a Ukrainian sea drone attacking a Russian oil tanker on Saturday. What do you make of the use of this technology? It just seems more and more we're seeing the use of these drones. And it's kind of ingenious on the part of the Ukrainians because you don't really need much of a navy if you can use these sorts of navy drones under the cover of darkness, I guess.

HERTLING: Well, again, it's a requirement to get the right targeting to use these kind of systems, Jim. But none of these sea drones or aircraft drones, unmanned systems as we call them, are new. Nothing is new about them. What's interesting, though, is that Ukraine forces have adapted so well to build this kind of equipment, to take literally inexpensive capabilities. That sea drone as an example probably costs maybe a couple of thousand dollars.

ACOSTA: Right.

HERTLING: And it's literally either damaging or destroying a ship that runs in the hundreds of millions. And it affects the Russian capability to defend the Black Sea. So that, you know, it's the return on the investment, first of all, but it's an adapting of a civilian type of capability, a remote-controlled motorboat basically, to strike a ship, and it's been fascinating to watch Ukraine adapt in many of these ways.

ACOSTA: Yes, I was just going to say it almost looks like a jet ski or something and they've mounted a camera on it. And I suppose it's being used for propaganda purposes as well to tell the Russians, oh, by the way, we can just use this low-tech way of coming after your ships.

HERTLING: Yes, it's definitely psychological warfare. You know, Russia -- and it's not only psychological. It's physical, Jim, because Russia now had realized they have to defend in places they didn't anticipate defending in. Hundreds of miles away from the territory of Ukraine, in the north -- excuse me, in the southeast sector of the Black Sea. That's almost 500 miles away from the coastline of Ukraine.

When you endanger boats in those areas, ships, main ships, with something like this small motorboat, it's really significant because Russia then has to calculate, gee, how do I defend that, right, and where do I take forces from other places in order to do that? So it's very challenging both psychologically and physically to do those things.

ACOSTA: Yes. Just fascinating video I wanted to ask you about. All right. Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, great to see you as always. Thanks so much.

HERTLING: Pleasure, Jim. Thanks.

ACOSTA: All right. Still ahead, several Republican candidates are in Iowa tonight for an event with voters. Next, what new polling from the state tells us about the uphill climb they face to stand out against the frontrunner, Donald Trump.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:42:17]

ACOSTA: All right. Right now several Republican presidential contenders are stumping in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, making the case about why they are better suited to be the nominee than former President Donald Trump. But if they hope to win the Iowa caucuses in January, they have a tough challenge ahead.

Check out this new poll. Trump continues to dominate the Republican field with 44 percent support among likely GOP voters in Iowa. His next closest rival Ron DeSantis is at 20 percent. All other candidates are in single digits or less.

And joining us now to talk about this and the current state of play in Iowa right now is Des Moines bureau chief for "The Gazette," which is based in Cedar Rapids, Erin Murphy.

Erin, great to have you on. Thanks so much. What do you think? Do these poll numbers reflect what you're seeing on the ground in Iowa? Is Trump that far ahead?

ERIN MURPHY, DES MOINES BUREAU CHIEF, THE GAZETTE: Yes, I've found nothing terribly surprising in that poll and what it shows is that as much as Iowa Republicans here are giving a look at these other candidates, as it stands right now, Donald Trump has his strong core of support, and that hasn't wavered, and the rest of the field has a lot of ground to make up to catch the former president.

ACOSTA: And we should note this "New York Times" poll we're referencing was conducted before Trump's third indictment was made public this past week and the arraignment that we saw, and I guess all of his social media posts that he put up there over the weekend, although I'm not sure given what we've seen so far, how that would change the dynamic too much in this field.

But, you know, we were talking with former Governor Asa Hutchinson earlier this hour, and he was saying that there were still some hope to change some minds. Still some time to change some minds. Is that your sense?

MURPHY: Well, the one thing I will say is Iowa Republicans, Iowans in general and the caucuses here are notoriously late breakers, late deciders. So there is still a segment of the electorate here, the caucus voting public, who can be persuaded and can still land on a different candidate. It's just that margin continues to be so big, and it's going to take some dramatic movement by one candidate. It's going to take a lot of that support coalescing around the same person for someone to come close to President Trump.

The other thing to keep in mind here is it's not always super important that someone else wins Iowa. One of those other candidates doesn't necessarily have to beat former President Trump. But if someone can leap out of that bottom tier and go from polling at 5 percent, 6 percent, 7 percent, 8 percent, 9 percent now and land at 20 percent, 25 percent in the caucuses, then that will be seen as significant movement, and that will propel that candidate coming out of Iowa even if they don't necessarily win here.

[18:45:07]

ACOSTA: And what is your sense of -- and I was talking to Governor Hutchinson about this. Your sense of how Iowans are responding to how the former president is campaigning out on the campaign trail, portraying these indictments as they're not coming after me. They're coming after you. I'm just standing in the way. And this really hyperbolic threatening rhetoric, inciting rhetoric where he's going after the special counsel, and the judge in the case and so on. Why aren't Republicans in Iowa fed up with this stuff, do you think?

MURPHY: Well, I mean, I think it's similar to what you hear from folks all over the country, which is there's a certain segment, and whatever percent that is, it's maybe around 44 percent in Iowa of folks who absolutely believe everything that former President Trump says about all these legal issues, and so they don't waver when these kinds of things happen. They believe former President Trump.

They believe he is the victim of political persecution despite all the evidence to the contrary. And none of these things change that calculus and where the people who are, you know, a little more fed up with this kind of thing. There are those folks within the Republican Party. I do hear from them here. They're just either not as many as there are supporting former President Trump, or they're scattered to all the other candidates and not coalescing around another candidate yet.

ACOSTA: Yes.

MURPHY: And that's why the former president continues to lead.

ACOSTA: Yes. And just a quick follow-up, because I've been out in Iowa a number of times following these caucuses, and I watched Rick Santorum surprise a lot of people back in 2012, watched Ted Cruz surprise a lot of people in 2016. And it sounds as though this race is different, and that Donald Trump is almost running as an incumbent in that field and perhaps you might not see that same dynamic where if somebody puts the time in all the counties they can pull out a big upset. Is that a fair read of things?

MURPHY: I couldn't agree more. I think you said it exactly right, Jim. It's like there is an incumbent in this race, and those numbers that we see with former President Trump have not moved. They've been in that upper 30s, lower 40s range, and someone else is going to have to get there if they're going to beat him here.

But, again, I will reemphasize that it's not always about winning Iowa. Someone doesn't have to necessarily defeat former President Trump here, but someone's got to make a big charge and be interesting, be relevant coming out of Iowa and moving on to New Hampshire and the other early voting states.

ACOSTA: Yes. I'm old enough to remember there used to be a saying that there are three tickets out of Iowa. So I guess we'll have to see if that's what happens this time around as well.

MURPHY: Right.

ACOSTA: Erin Murphy, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

MURPHY: Thanks for having me.

ACOSTA: And we'll be right back. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:52:23]

ACOSTA: The new CNN Original Series "SEE IT LOUD: THE HISTORY OF BLACK TELEVISION" celebrates the creators who've brought black TV to life. This week we're showcasing black voices in science fiction, horror and fantasy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're getting to a place through black horror and science fiction to tell our stories.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You'll never have another Catwoman like that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My favorite science fiction, too, it would be "Westworld."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Misha Green is a phenomenal storyteller. "Star Trek" was a landmark moment.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's very serious.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I see different representation. It's a beautiful thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Joining us now is the great Kevin Frazier. He's the co-host of "Entertainment Tonight" and appears in "SEE IT LOUD."

Kevin, great to see you. When we look at the early days of sci-fi TV back in the '50s, early '60s, there were no black characters. Black people didn't exist in the future, I guess, until "Star Trek" came along and launched with a multiracial cast and Lieutenant Uhura. KEVIN FRAZIER, CO-HOST, ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT: Yes, Jim, you know,

it's scary to think that there could be creatures of all colors and shapes but there couldn't be black people. And, you know, as far back as the beginning of cinema, you had black people that they would appear in those traditional stereotypical roles. Everything changed with Nichelle Nichols. And you have to remember, not only was it important to see her but also her interactions with William Shatner in James Kirk. The first interracial kiss on television. So she broke ground in so many ways and was such an important character. And she changed television forever.

ACOSTA: And how did we see it evolve from there in this genre?

FRAZIER: Well, first you have to remember that there was always black science fiction and fantasy. I mean, all the way back to the 1850s there were graphic novels that were being written by black authors. But the way we saw it evolve first is in the black circles with movies like "Blacula" back in the '70s. But now that you are giving folks an opportunity when you actually open up everything to everybody, you actually get excellence and innovation.

And that's what we're seeing now. That's how things are changing. That's why it's important to see Will Smith, when you see him in "Men in Black." When you see Lando Calrissian, Billy Dee Williams in the "Star Wars" franchise.

ACOSTA: Oh, yes.

FRAZIER: When you see Morgan Freeman as the president in "Deep Impact." So it's important that you see black people exist, we're important, and we have a role. And in many of those roles we can be superheroes.

[18:55:00]

ACOSTA: And if I can just be a nerd for a moment, it was great to see Billy Dee Williams, Lando, come back in that last "Star Wars" movie. That was just fantastic. It gave us all a big --

FRAZIER: Boy.

ACOSTA: I know. All of us "Star Wars" fans a big throwback thrill.

Kevin Frazier, we don't have a whole lot of time this evening but please come back. Thank you so much for being with us. Greatly appreciate it.

FRAZIER: Thanks so much for having me. Always appreciate it. Take care.

ACOSTA: Thank you so much. You as well.

"SEE IT LOUD: THE HISTORY OF BLACK TELEVISION" airs tonight at 9:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific only on CNN.

And this week's CNN Hero is committed to restoring coral reefs in the Florida Keys. Meet Mike Goldberg, whose non-profit has transplanted more than 15,000 corals from a nursery to an ocean.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE GOLDBERG, 2023 CNN HERO: Coral reefs, without them, nothing is here. Simply put. They are what it is that brings the ecosystem together. Sadly, I've watched us lose that coral reef and the disappearance of that diverse marine ecosystem.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. Are we ready? All right. Let's go down.

GOLDBERG: But then I said, you know what? I'm going to do something. I truly believe we're going to be successful with this restoration work.

It's amazing. How fast this coral is growing.

I see things every time I go in the water that give me hope. I love being a part of it. I wake up every day and say, look what I get to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And for the full story and to see his group in action go to CNNheroes.com.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)