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Trump's Legal Team Linked To Voting Breach In Coffee County, GA.; Tightened Security In Fulton County And For D.A. Fani Willis; Ahead Of Trump's Indictment; Lahaina, Maui Fire U.S. Deadliest Fire In A Century; Possible Indictment Looms Over Trump; Russia's War On Ukraine Continues. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired August 13, 2023 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

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BOBBY FLAY, CELEBRITY CHEF: A lot of my contemporaries would say to me, I'm doing a ton of business on delivery, but I can't make money because of commission rates.

UNKNOWN: Right. That's right. Right. And during the pandemic we heard that a lot.

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FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: All right. Be sure to tune in for a new episode of "The Whole Story with Anderson Cooper" tonight at 8:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm Fredricka Whitefield. The "CNN Newsroom" continues with Jessica Dean right now.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: Live from Washington, I'm Jessica Dean in for Jim Acosta and you're in the "CNN Newsroom." And we begin this hour with a shocking new development in the Georgia investigation into election interference by Donald Trump and his allies. Sources telling CNN Fulton County investigators now have e-mails and text messages that directly connect members of Trump's legal team to the breach of a voting system in rural Coffee County.

This new development coming as District Attorney Fani Willis prepares to present the case to a grand jury. She's expected to seek an indictment. of more than a dozen people as early as Tuesday. And that means this week, a former U.S. president could be facing criminal charges in four U.S. jurisdictions.

We are covering all the latest developments in this, from the legal and investigative angles to this week's grand jury proceedings. And we begin with CNN's Zachary Cohen who helped break this exclusive reporting we just discussed. And Zach, start first with walking us through how significant this is, this evidence linking members of Trump's legal team to the breach of a voting system.

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yeah, Jessica, these text messages really add to a growing body of evidence that links directly Trump's lawyers and legal team to the breach of a voting system in Coffee County. Now, Coffee County is about 200 miles south of where we are right here in Fulton County, Georgia, where behind us, you know, court proceedings will play out next week.

But this breach has become a central part, one of the central parts of Fani Willis's criminal investigation into efforts to overturn the 2020 election. And these text messages really lay out for us how Trump's attorneys help coordinate and were directly involved in a plan to try to recruit a local election official in Coffee County to get them --- to get the official to give them access to the voting systems there. And they ultimately did get access to those voting systems, unauthorized access.

But that breach does date back, the planning for that does date back almost a week before these operatives gained access to the voting systems in Coffee County on January 7, 2021. You know, Rudy Giuliani, Trump's former personal attorney, his also former attorney Sidney Powell, these texts showed that they were integral and both funding and their awareness of the planning process itself.

So, these texts do add another element and really do help prosecutors establish that link between Trump's close attorneys and what happened in Coffee County on January 7th, 2021.

DEAN: And Zach, you're there in Atlanta. Take us through what the next few days of this grand jury proceeding is going to look like.

COHEN: Yeah, Jessica. We're expecting early next week for, you know, the district attorney, Fani Willis, to begin presenting her case to the grand jury here. And we could see indictments as soon as Tuesday. We know there's multiple witnesses that have been called to appear before the grand jury on Tuesday and, you know, that is a signal that indictments could be coming and could be coming soon.

We're going to have to wait and see how that all plays out if the grand jury needs more time just to review all the evidence in the case. But the calling of the witnesses and the schedule for them to appear on Tuesday is the clearest indication that indictments could be coming, they could be coming soon.

DEAN: All right, Zachary Cohen for us live in Atlanta. Thanks so much for that reporting. And I want to continue the conversation now. Here in the studio, we have CNN legal analyst Norm Eisen. He is a former White House ethics czar and served as counsel to the House Democrats during the first impeachment of then-President Trump.

Norm, it's always great to have you here, especially when we're getting news like this, which does seem so significant. Zach walked us through what it means to the broader story, how it fits into the timeline, the narrative. Walk us through the legal implications here now that we know they have these text messages and e-mails.

NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Fani Willis is looking at three different areas of possible illegality, Jessica. The first is the famous fake electoral certificates. The second is pressure on Georgia election officials. That's the famous call, just find 11,780 votes to Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger. And the third is the alleged intrusion on these computer systems in Coffee County, Georgia.

And the CNN story is very important because it connects the dots. We now have evidence that go from Coffee County to Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani and as CNN reports, right into the Oval Office because this was discussed on December 18th in one of the very notorious meetings in the Oval Office, whether it's possible to get access to these Georgia voting systems and others around the country.

[17:05:07]

It matters of course because one of the most serious crimes that we have in the 21st century is unauthorized access hacking of computer systems. So, we'll see what Fannie Willis does, but think of her investigation as a three-legged stool and our new reporting has revealed details indicating just how long, how strong that third leg of the stool is.

DEAN: Yeah, showing kind of the through line through all of it. And we've talked over the weekend since we got the information yesterday that Jeff Duncan would be testifying, that this would be kind of happening in quick succession over the next couple of days. We've been talking about how Fani Willis is really looking at conspiracy charges.

She's looking at racketeering charges, not just for Trump, but for so many of his allies, people you just named. And what has kind of struck me is that when you're doing that, when you're prosecuting that sort of case, you really need -- everyone needs to be responsible for everybody else's mood. You have to tie the story in as you're talking about. So how will she do that and does this sort of evidence, these e-mails, text messages, we have the phone call, the recording with Trump asking for those to find the extra votes, how does that all play together?

EISEN: The most powerful tool we have in American law is all to do that is also one of Fani Willis's go-to's and that is RICO, the racketeering laws. There is a federal model, but the states have also adopted it. And Georgia has one of the most powerful in the country. A long list of federal crimes plus 40 Georgia state crimes can allow Fani Willis to charge RICO. She's done it numerous times on high profile cases in the past and that's exactly what RICO does.

It pulls together those three conspiracies we were talking about, including this hacking conspiracy into one large case that you can present to a jury where you say, hey, what was the point of those fake electoral certificates? What was the point of pressing Georgia officials to do the wrong thing? What was the point of the computer hacking? The same point. All of these people were working together in one, as we put it, enterprise in order for Donald Trump to allegedly hang on to his office when we know he had lost the election. You can't do that in American law.

DEAN: Right. And it is so layered and those cases are so complicated, but it is it is important to note she has tried these kinds of cases before. This is in her wheelhouse as what's not something new, she's done a lot of these. What do you expect over the next couple of days because we know the grand jury will meet tomorrow, Monday, and then it would take a couple of days. Do you think an indictment could come as early as Tuesday? Well, how do you expect the next 48 hours to play out?

EISEN: I expect that we will see some grand jury activity Monday. This is a Monday Tuesday grand jury in Fulton County. We know that the D.A. warmed them up, likely, with another RICO case that one of the grand juries, Monday Tuesday grand jury, brought a RICO case last week. So, you don't want the first RICO case you give to a grand jury to involve the former president.

I think that we know that two witnesses are confirmed, a journalist as well as former Lieutenant Governor Jeff Duncan for Tuesday. Prosecutors often -- she could have just put an investigator on the stand. She had a special grand jury that sat and produced a report. She could just give the grand jury that report. But prosecutors like to warm up a grand jury with live witnesses.

So, we could very well see an indictment come out of that grand jury as soon as Tuesday. I've been a criminal defense lawyer for over three decades. Criminal law is full of surprises, no guarantees. But right now, I'd say Tuesday is probably our most likely landing point for an indictment.

DEAN: Kind of keep our eye on that. And quickly before I let you go. One more thing that I think is so different because remember this will be the fourth indictment if it does come down, from the federal case especially against the former president, is in Georgia. This could be televised, right?

EISEN: Yes. Yes. Georgia is not like the federal courts. The federal courts didn't experiment with televising trials. The judges didn't like it. Georgia believes in stronger transparency. Personally, I think that's a good thing. That is one of the reasons that this Fani Willis case is so important the American people can watch and see and learn just how serious the alleged attempt on our democracy was.

DEAN: All right, a lot to unpack there but Norm Eisen you always do such a great job. Great to see you. Thanks so much.

EISEN: Thanks Jessica.

DEAN: We appreciate it. And let's go now back to Atlanta where security preparations are underway ahead of those possible new charges against the former president. CNN's Isabel Rosales is live outside the Fulton County Courthouse. And Isabel, we know that the D.A. has had threats against her, that there is security. How are officials there preparing for this week?

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ISABEL ROSALES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jessica, regardless of the decision from the grand jury, it appears that Fulton County is ready. You can see right behind me here, a heavier than normal police presence. And in fact, I took a lap around the courthouse and there are officers, law enforcement officers, staked out at every corner of the building. And also, these orange and blue and white barricades that are surrounding the building.

They're also planning to control this area by closing down the streets as we head into Monday and Tuesday as well. And it's not just the building, but also safeguarding the very visible face in front of this investigation, and that is D.A. Fani Willis.

She has, according to a source with knowledge -- familiar with the movements of Atlanta law enforcement officers, Fani Willis has received additional security protection near her home and she has, as Jessica, as you -- as you mentioned, recently warned officials about staying vigilant about potential security threats.

And an e-mail obtained by CNN, she spoke about messages, racist and sexualized messages that she's received and also similar vile voicemails. The man in charge of security around this local area, that is the sheriff of Fulton County, Patrick Labatt. He says that his team is prepared. Not only that, but he's been taking notes at other cities where Trump has been indicted and bring -- he's brought back those good security details back home here to Atlanta. Listen.

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PATRICK LABAT, FULTON COUNTY, GA SHERIFF'S OFFICE: We understand that the microscope and everyone's watching Atlanta, but it also gave us an opportunity to go to D.C., gave us an opportunity to partner with New York and partner with Miami and understand just collectively what something of this magnitude involves. Our goal is to stay focused and I've said this before, we're ready.

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ROSALES: And Trump has not kept silent about Fulton County or Willis. He's attacked Willis on Truth Social and during campaign events. Willis has previously said that this, what Trump has said, his rhetoric, has increased security concerns. Jessica?

DEAN: Isabel, it is unbelievable that they have had three opportunities when a former president has been indicted to prepare for what could potentially be a fourth indictment. Isabel Rosales for us in Atlanta. Thanks so much for that update.

Well, Lahaina fire in Hawaii is now the deadliest U.S. fire in more than 100 years. We are live on Maui where frustration is growing about the response both before and after that disaster.

Plus, we have the story of one man who says he called his family to say goodbye before saving himself and others from the wildfires. He's going to speak to us about that experience.

And later, Ron DeSantis at the Iowa State Fair vying for the GOP nomination to face President Biden. But it's a possible debate between the Florida governor and a different Democrat that's generating some buzz. Is it a good idea? We'll discuss. You're live in the "CNN Newsroom."

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DEAN: The official death toll in Hawaii is now 93. That number is sadly expected to rise. And that makes the Lahaina fire America's deadliest in more than a century. And with more than 2,000 structures either damaged or completely decimated, the state's governor now estimates the economic toll nearing $6 billion. This morning on CNN, Hawaii Senator Mazie Hirono recounted what she saw when she toured the devastation.

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SEN. MAZIE HIRONO (D-HI): That recovery is going to take time. It is not going to be overnight by any means. It will take years. This is an entire town that has burned to the ground. Some 11,000 residents live there. I think that we are doing a lot in order to provide the kind of support we need to be providing, but there will always be, you know, the call for more. And my hope and expectation are that all of that will come.

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DEAN: CNN's Mike Valerio is on the ground on Maui. Mike, tell us what you're hearing from residents as they return to Lahaina.

MIKE VALERIO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jessica, what we're witnessing are these profound moments of sorrow and grief. And these moments are only just getting started. Now, to take you through, Jessica, what we have been seeing, what we've been doing throughout our day, this behind us, this is the only checkpoint to get into the disaster zone.

And before we came up on the air, we met a woman named Susan, and she is going home. Very emotional about that. But she wanted everybody watching, our viewers around the world, to know that Maui, her home, this island here, Jessica, is not just a vacation spot, but it is the soul and identity of thousands of people who live here. And in this vulnerable moment, she spoke quite movingly about the need for respect. Listen to what she told us.

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SUSAN SLOBODNJAK, LAHAINA RESIDENT: When I drove through on Friday, I had no clue what I was going through. I got so -- everything's gone. I worked at the Charred House in 1991, it is flat to the ground. There are houses that I used to live in Lahaina that I don't even know where they were. And, you know, I lost friends in there, you know. They were going back to get their animals, you know, and she died.

So, I mean, you know, it's really sad because people come over here. You know, I heard there was a snorkeling boat looking at Lahaina town. Give them respect, you know, it's so bad. This is -- you know, people died here. You know, people, I mean, it's not just a vacation -- it's not just a place for vacation. We live here.

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VALERIO: And this is what makes moments like those, Jessica, so profoundly sad.

[17:20:00]

This beautiful setting that we have right here looking at the Pacific Ocean back towards the mainland of the United States. This to give you just an idea of place getting back to how people enter Lahaina into the disaster zone. That's about a thousand feet above the sands of the ocean. This is two lanes. This is the only way into the disaster zone. It'll take you about an hour to get in. And what's happening? Officers here, 12-hour shifts, they're checking licenses to make sure that it's only Lahaina residents who are getting in. No tourists, no looters.

And of course, when you hear the press conferences and the details that human remains, as graphic as it is, are turning into dust upon the touch. This is such a sensitive area that they want to make sure that nobody accesses any place that has not been cleared because families on the other side of this checkpoint are depending on the first responders a few miles away for answers. We are just getting started with the despair that we are witnessing so many parts of the island at all hours of the day, Jessica.

DEAN: It is so, so deep. Such deep despair there. All right, Mike Valerio for us on Maui. Thank you very much. And our next guest survived the deadly fires by fleeing his house and then jumping into the Pacific Ocean. Mike Cicchino is joining me now. Mike, thanks so much for being with us. I know your wife is sitting there with you, but that you're going to have -- you're going to be the one that talks to us.

I first want to say how sorry we all are and how we're thinking of all of you. I know this has been horribly traumatic for you and those you love, and it's been a really hard time. Thanks for coming on and making time for us. We just want to talk first about kind of those moments when the fire was getting to your home and you really thought things were dire.

MIKE CICCHINO, WILDFIRE SURVIVOR: You know, thank God that I left my house, that Joe goes check around the neighborhood because that was the only warning that I got, was actually seeing the houses on fire, you know, seven houses down or so, it wasn't too far. The second, I got to that fire, I immediately turned around and I knew it was going to be bad with those winds and you just see everything being caught on fire and people running and -- for their lives.

You know, kids screaming, babies being handed off to other people. It was something out of a volcano or like a war movie. Only thing that I could do is race back to the house to save my wife and the dogs we're looking after.

DEAN: So scary.

CICCHINO: At that point -- yeah.

DEAN: Yeah, go ahead.

CICCHINO: Go ahead. Pretty much at that point, we, you know, got the dogs, my wife got in the car and we didn't know where to go. The smoke and fire were heading towards the north, so we wanted to go south and they had roadblocks preventing us from going south. We kind of got pushed into the Lahaina area where it's a very small town and everybody was just stuck in traffic and we had to abandon our car on the sidewalk.

Run for our life in the other direction, since we saw the direction, we were heading to was already on fire. To our side was on fire. And then once we noticed that the direction, we're now running with all these dogs is on fire, we were stuck in the middle. Only thing that we could do is jump in a van for a little bit to -- with some of the dogs that we were able to get. And, you know, when we jumped in the van, the van was actually filled with propane tanks.

DEAN: Oh gosh.

CICCHINO: So, at that point, we just had to throw all those propane tanks, get away from the seawall where we knew we had to jump. And over the course of 12 hours, we were hiding in the seawall, jumping in and out of the water, dodging where the flames and fires were.

Even in the water, we're getting burnt and dunking under water. There are times where we thought we truly were going to die. I remember calling my mom. telling her that I love her, my brother, my daughter, that's only four years old, you know, it's telling her that I love her. I'm thinking this is my last call.

And right on that last call, all those propane tanks went and it's, you know, it was intense. It was a very intense day. Yeah, go ahead.

DEAN: Yeah, no, I can't imagine. And just, you know, a lot of times in these moments, it's hard for anyone to wrap their head around what it would feel like. It sounds like it all happened kind of quickly and your brain's trying to connect all the dots that there's fire coming, you have to get out. How do you get to your wife? How do you get to your dog? It's a lot to kind of put together.

[17:24:56]

And I know that we had heard that you'd called your family before you started helping others and that your mom, even when you made that phone call, didn't think you'd made it afterward. What was the call like when you called her to say that you were, okay?

CICCHINO: When I called, forgive me, when you call to say I was okay, when she found out I was alive?

DEAN: Yeah.

CICCHINO: I'm trying not to cry. She thought I was dead. She thought I was dead from 3:30 in the afternoon till about 12:00 the next day. And, you know, when I talked to her, we both just broke down crying. And she's like, "Where are you? Where are you?" And, you know, she drove to the backside of the island. It's a little bit more of a dangerous road. Immediately came and get us. And the second I got into her arms, I just wanted to collapse. You

know, we -- it was -- I just -- I couldn't stop shaking and crying with her. We just held each other for the longest time. She still doesn't want to let go of me. You know, we -- every time we're with each other, we're just holding each other and trying to touch each other just because, you know, we thought we were never going to see each other again. We thought it was the end at times.

DEAN: No, of course, and I can just see the anguish on your wife's face, and I hear it in your voice, and I, again, we're all just here on the mainland, our hearts are just absolutely breaking for all of you, and of course, we're glad you're okay. I think what so many people would like to know, and again, it's thanks again for talking about this, because I know it is traumatic, is how -- what can they do? What do you all need? Maybe it's just reminding people not to go to Maui right now, that you all need time and space to start to put your life back together.

CICCHINO: And thank you for bringing that up. One of the big things is we're short on housing here. You know, we live -- it's a tourist town, it's a tourist island. That's how we survive out of here is tourism. And I hate to say it, but I think they should put a little hold on people coming to visit because we don't have any places for the locals to stay.

They're going to need those hotel rooms. They're going to need the, our Airbnb's, VRBOs. We need -- we need them. We have houses here that have eight people in them and many people to one room. People that don't even have that. They're still in the shelter. We're in desperate need out here. A lot of people have nowhere to go. They've been here their whole life and everything is gone.

Their friends, you know, that they came and go stay with their friends because their friends, you know, either dead or their houses are gone. We just went through the nightmare and we're about to go through another nightmare trying basically not stay homeless. We're going to be homeless, and a lot of people are going to be like this, if not for months, years. People are going to be moving off this island. So, what we ask is just people kind of, please help out as much as you can with donations.

We need some supplies out here, they're coming in, but a lot of it is just we need to rebuild. And, you know, we started a GoFundMe or my mom started a GoFundMe, you know, for us. But there are also a lot of other people that lost so much more than us that need help too.

You know, I recommend people just going through GoFundMe. If you don't know anybody here on Maui, just go through GoFundMe's, you'll see that, you know, Maui -- Lahaina fire and there's people they can donate to. There are charities you can donate to. But we need every -- all the help that we can get. Everyone that can help, please help us.

DEAN: And I hope people hear that and take that to heart. I do want to ask you before I let you all go. There's been so much talk and obviously right now they've got to, you know, they're still putting out fires and trying to assess the situation. But they're also trying to figure out why there wasn't any warning or a very severe lack of warning. Did you feel that way? Did you feel like you were properly warned? It doesn't sound, based on your story, that you had ample warning.

CICCHINO: No, no, you're absolutely right. There's no warning at all. There's not a siren, not a phone alert, not a -- nothing, not a call. The radio, we're even looking at hearing the radio while we're trying to get out of there and nothing on the radio for like 15 minutes. And even that didn't help, it was just evacuate. And it's just, where do we go? You're blocking off the roads to go south, which is the safe way. And we're forced into an area where we almost lost our lives.

DEAN: Well, I -- yeah. I just --

CICCHINO: It's just something surreal.

[17:29:59]

DEAN: It has to be surreal, and it came so seemingly out of nowhere and destroyed so much, and we're so glad you all are okay, but certainly the trauma of what you experienced will last a very, very long time for you and your family and for your friends. So, we are sending you our best and thank you again for making time. We appreciate it.

CICCHINO: Of course. Thank you for taking your time to get this out there.

DEAN: Yeah. You, guys, take care. Thanks, Mike.

And for more information on how you can help those wildfire victims, go to cnn.com/impact. You can also text the word "Hawaii" to 707070. We'll be right back.

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[17:35:13]

DEAN: The 2024 presidential race for the republican nomination is ramping up. Voters in Iowa lining up to get a close up of Donald Trump at the state fair yesterday. And a lot of those voters seemingly unfazed by a possible fourth indictment looming over the current GOP frontrunner.

I want to bring in our political panel now. We've got CNN political commentator and Democratic strategist Maria Cardona and Doug Heye, Republican strategist and former RNC communications director. It is great to see both of you. Always a good day to have both of you in the studio.

Let's start first with this Fulton County investigation. I'm going to take everybody back to the beginning of the show, which is what we're expecting to get underway on Monday with this potential fourth indictment.

Maria, sources are telling us that investigators now have this email, these text messages that are connecting Trump's allies with the Coffee County voting system breach. How bad do you think this is for the Trump team? Because there's legally and there's politically --

MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yeah, legally and politically. Right.

DEAN: Since we're in the politics panel, let's talk about the political side.

CARDONA: So, politically for the republican primary, I think it helps him because as we have seen, the more that he gets dinged on the legal side with another indictment, with other proof that he knew that he had lost the election, his supporters do one thing, rally stronger around him.

But where I do think it's going to hurt him politically if he does make it through to become the nominee, which right now it looks like he will, but you never know --

DEAN: Right.

CARDONA: -- we'll have to have that caveat and Doug, I'm sure, will have more to say about that --

(LAUGHTER)

-- but if he does make it to the general election, I think all of this is kryptonite for him in the general election because you are not going to have independent voters, suburban women, everyone who lost -- he lost in the 2020 election now come and say, oh, he got a fourth indictment. You know what? Now, I think I'll support him.

DEAN: Hmm.

CARDONA: No. Now, that's not to say, and I always say this, this is not going to be an easy election for Democrats, no matter who the nominee is, even if it is Donald Trump. We live in incredibly divided country and we have to do everything we can to mobilize our voters to make sure that they know the difference between Donald Trump or frankly any Republican who comes out as a nominee.

And Joe Biden, for his next four years, focusing and touting his accomplishments and what he has been doing every single day for the American people.

DEAN: And I do think that's such an important point about Democrats. It's not -- it's not a slam dunk for them --

CARDONA: No.

DEAN: -- by any means if it's Trump.

CARDONA: Exactly.

DEAN: That is going to be a tight race no matter what. Doug Heye, I want to ask if you agree with kind of Maria's assessment about Trump politically.

DOUG HEYE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yeah.

DEAN: I do think you have to kind of draw it to the primary and then to a general election. But as a Republican, I know there's -- listen, Republican voters I'm talking to in Iowa, a lot of them do have Trump fatigue, but they also want somebody that can win --

HEYE: Yeah.

DEAN: -- and they're trying to assess who that might be.

HEYE: Yeah, I think we see a few things. We see an immediate term, which is that rallying of support that Maria mentioned. We see the short term, which is a boost in his poll numbers and a solidifying of intensity. I think part of that is all of this bizarrely reinforces Donald Trump's core message.

The system is rigged. That's what he said on day one. That's what he continued to say. And this sort of becomes evidence of that. And as you have his message being reinforced by what's happening to him, you also, also bizarrely, have it reinforced by his Republican opponents, who by and large aren't critical of him.

So, if you get indicted and the people running against you in politics usually use that as something to attack with --

DEAN: Usually.

CARDONA: Usually.

DEAN: We are in a weird cycle.

HEYE: They don't say Donald Trump is right. But that then gets to the long term. And this is where we will see the debate whether Trump is there or not. What Republicans say if there's another indictment and about these? Will they use this as an opportunity to do the normal things you do in politics, which is to criticize somebody that you're running against who's underwater like this?

DEAN: Right. And let's stay -- let's stay with the Republicans for one second. And Doug, we'll go back to you, because there was a lot of talk. So, Trump was there for, I think, about on the ground for Iowa for a couple hours yesterday.

HEYE: Yeah.

DEAN: DeSantis, Nikki Haley, Ramaswamy. All these other candidates were there for many hours, shaking hands, doing kind of our more traditional, what we would traditionally say at the Iowa State fair. Do you think that DeSantis specifically was able to kind of maximize that face-to-face time? You know, he had his family. He's making this kind of generational, you know, argument. You know, comparing himself to Trump and Biden. He's got this young family. He's got his kids.

HEYE: Yeah. DEAN: Do you think he was able to move the needle a little bit, even though Trump comes in, sucks oxygen --

HEYE: Yeah.

DEAN: -- for a while, and then leaves?

HEYE: I don't think we know yet, but DeSantis was very smart to be there all day everyday and to meet as many people one-on-one as he can. One, Iowa voters like that. Two, Donald Trump doesn't have to do that.

[17:40:00]

He's not a candidate celebrity. So, whatever he does, people are going to see his name on the plane. I've been in the Des Moines Airport and saw the airplane pull up T-U-T-R-U, I can't spell today.

(LAUGHTER)

And I was like, oh he's here. And I wasn't going to that event.

DEAN: Right.

HEYE: And so, Trump brings that in a way that nobody else can. So, you have to work it relentlessly. I would say the Iowa State fair is two weeks long. Some of these candidates should go back in week when not all the national reporters are there for say but all of those voters are.

DEAN: Right. And that is what we have to remember, right? Because, obviously, we're covering it from, you know, the big picture. But this is local. And so, Maria, we did see to that end, we saw the plane flying. There was a lot of talk --

HEYE: Uh-hmm.

DEAN: -- about the plane that was flying with the banner that said "be likeable Ron."

(LAUGHTER)

Kind of this trolling that Trump and his team are known for. But we pay -- listen, the media pays attention to that sort of thing. Do you think that voters pay attention to that sort of thing?

CARDONA: I think that that is the kind of thing that voters perhaps not in Iowa will pay more attention to it than the voters in Iowa because I agree with Doug, the voters in Iowa and New Hampshire, they like to see these candidates up front and personal.

They pride themselves in being the ones that they're going to their houses, they're going to the coffee clutches, they're going to the diners, they're going to the state fairs.

DEAN: Uh-hmm.

CARDONA: And so, I don't think that matters. But I do think what matters is that while the national polls do have Trump right now, again, I focus on right now because you never know, a day is a lifetime in politics, as the prohibitive frontrunner, the polls in Iowa are a little bit closer, but not that much closer.

Trump is still the prohibitive frontrunner in Iowa. And I don't see anything that is focused on a momentum for any other candidate to be able to catch up to Donald Trump and frankly beat him.

I think what the strategy is going to be for these other candidates is to focus and try to get as much out of a second place or a third place, and then focus on that going into the next state --

DEAN: Uh-hmm.

CARDONA: -- because right now, again, I don't really see any other way because Donald Trump is still focused on the device of politics, the politics of revenge, the politics of resentment, which we know works for his base.

And then when you have the whole conservative media now, who at the beginning, I think, were looking for a Donald Trump alternative, they are now focused on defending Donald Trump against all of his legal woes. That doesn't help any candidate except Donald Trump.

DEAN: Except. Okay, so to that end, those candidates are all trying to find a way to break through. And Doug, we know that Ron DeSantis and Gavin Newsom have gone through this thing, agreeing to debate one another. Now, the details remain not sorted out, but that they would debate each other. Do you think this is a good idea?

HEYE: Well, this could end up like Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg. Maybe it doesn't happen.

DEAN: Yes, the cage fight that never was.

HEYE: So, this to me highlights that. When Tip O'Neill said that all politics are local, that was true then. All politics are not local. No politics are local. What's an issue in Florida is a big deal in California.

DEAN: Uh-hmm.

HEYE: What's a big deal in California is an important issue in Florida. And so, it's sort of not surprising now that we're seeing this as we see senators and governors troll each other.

What I'd say is I think for Ron DeSantis, doing this could be advantageous for him if he does well because he can show to his base, look at what a fighter I am. And if they're tuning in to Fox News and seeing somebody like, that's a good thing for him.

If I'm the White House and Gavin Newsom who's very good on T.V. gives a forceful hour pushing back on somebody that the left doesn't like, I wouldn't want somebody outshining my president.

CARDONA: I completely disagree with that.

HEYE: Because you think he's amazing. More amazing than Joe Biden.

CARDONA: Well, I do -- I do think Gavin is amazing.

HEYE: There's the problem.

CARDONA: And I think that he is a tremendous debater. And I think that he will, if he does well, and I think he will do well, and I think he'll beat Ron DeSantis, I think that he will be -- he will be focused on talking to an audience on Fox News, talking about the president's accomplishments, talking about the huge contrast that would be another four years of Joe Biden with the, you know, massive job creation numbers, the tremendous accomplishments, the incredible legislation that is bringing tons of money to all of local economies that lots of Republicans are trying to take credit for that voted against all of that legislation.

And then you have Ron DeSantis who -- to me, this is a move of desperation because his campaign has done nothing but spiral downward from the moment that he launched it. He -- when you're running for president, you don't want to be on a stage with somebody who you don't think is your equal. Gavin Newsom is a term-limited reelected governor from California. He has nothing to lose.

[17:44:58]

Ron DeSantis has a lot to lose here, which tells me that this is a move of desperation because he knows his campaign is going down.

DEAN: Okay, well, I would like to talk more about that, but we're out of time.

(LAUGHTER)

Unfortunately, there's so much more there. But Maria Cardona and Doug Heye, thanks --

HEYE: Thank you.

DEAN: -- to both of you.

CARDONA: Thank you so much, Jessica

DEAN: It's good to see you. Coming up, Ukraine accuses Russia of an act of piracy in the Black Sea. Plus, a closer look at Ukraine's push for training on American F-16s and why it has been such a challenge. You're live in the "CNN Newsroom."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DEAN: Ukraine is accusing Moscow of piracy tonight after a Russian warship opened fire near a Ukrainian cargo vessel and then boarded it by force. This happened in the Black Sea earlier today. Ukraine calling that incident a deliberate attack on a civilian carrier.

Russia pulled out of the Black Sea grain deal last month, vowing to treat any ships headed to Ukraine as potential military targets.

[17:50:01]

Nearby in Southern Ukraine, officials say seven people were killed by Russian shelling today. Those attacks in the Kherson region killing an entire family in that home, including a 23-day-old baby girl. All of this as Ukraine's counteroffensive slowly drags on.

And joining us now to discuss is CNN military analyst and retired Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton. It's always great to have you here.

CEDRIC LEIGHTON, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Thank you.

DEAN: Thank you so much for being here. Let's talk first. We just walked through kind of the current state of play. We know that Ukraine has been struggling a little bit in this counteroffensive to find some momentum.

LEIGHTON: Uh-hmm.

DEAN: Why do you think that is, and can you kind of walk us through it

LEIGHTON: Sure, absolutely. Well, Jessica, one of the big problems is that everything kind of stayed static for about eight months in this war. So, the last eight months before the Ukrainians moved on their counteroffensive, the Russians were able to dig in into this area right in through here.

So, all of this area, think of it as being heavily mined, heavily entrenched with lots of trenches, plus you have those dragon's teeth, tank traps that are there. So, all of these and think of this not only as one layer, but at least as a double and in some cases a triple layer right in through this area.

Extremely hard to get through and extremely difficult because when you look at the way this front line actually is set up, you see so many different areas where there are geographic vulnerabilities, but also every time that there's something like this, the Russians just have to step back a bit and keep the Ukrainians at bay. That's why these things are so important at this point in time.

DEAN: It does help to kind of see it like that. And we know, too, that Ukraine has been asking for better air power for a long time, and they really want those F-16 fighter jets. The White House is saying that's still on the table. But they're warning about the amount of training that it's going to take to be able to fly these. What is it that makes them different from what the Ukrainians are used to?

LEIGHTON: So, what the Ukrainians are used to are the MiG-29s and the SU-27s, both of them Russian-made aircraft, and the ones that the Ukrainians have are actually from the Soviet Union era. So, they're really old.

DEAN: Old, yeah.

LEIGHTON: Now, the F-16 can be old, too. I mean, it was started basically at gut. It started in the 1980s in terms of operational use. But the key difference is this. Look at this cockpit right here. Everything here is digital. This is a heads up display that the pilot gets so he or she doesn't have to look down if they are engaged with a target.

DEAN: Uh-hmm.

LEIGHTON: They can see the target area that they're going after. They can get the radar pictures as they need them. And it's fairly easy to control but -- you get used to it. Compare that to the MiG-29. This is what the Ukrainians are flying now. It's all analog. All of this is completely different. This is like going back into the 1970s or before. And it's very different to go from this to this.

DEAN: Totally. No -- I mean, that -- even to a layperson like me, I can understand how very different that is. And before we let you go, I also want to talk to you about drones, because those have been such a key part of this war. And Russia claims there have been several drone attacks by Ukraine Sunday and this is -- researchers say Russia is making its own version of an Iranian-made drone. What do you make of the use of drones in this conflict?

LEIGHTON: This is one of the most revolutionary aspects of this war. So, every war has something different added to it. In this particular case, drones like this, you know, in some cases, you could say, well, I can pick this up at the local hobby store and build something like this.

Well, the Ukrainians are doing it and they're creating these -- basically, they're out of a suitcase and you can launch them fairly easily by hand and you can get intercept -- you can intercept signals from them, you can intercept pictures, you can do all kinds of things. It's an intelligence gatherer as well as a weapons delivery platform. So, you have that.

Plus, you also have the ability of the Ukrainians to go into the Black Sea using seaborne drones to attack Russian naval bases in this area and, of course, the Kerch Bridge right here, the bridge is here. All of these are vulnerable to drone attacks, either airborne or seaborne drones, depending on where the target is.

So, drones are important and they're going to set the stage for the next chapter of this war as well as subsequent conflicts that are coming up at some time in the future.

DEAN: Right. No doubt about it. The fact that they're unmanned, too --

LEIGHTON: Exactly.

DEAN: -- is huge.

LEIGHTON: And that's important. One other quick thing on this, the fact that they're unmanned is critical because Ukraine has a real disparity in population compared to Russia. They need as many unmanned platforms that they can effectively employ in any of these areas. They must have those and they must use them effectively in order to achieve a force multiplying effect.

DEAN: Yeah, really critical for them. All right, colonel, it's always great to see you. Thanks so much for being with us.

LEIGHTON: Thank you, Jessica.

DEAN: CNN has learned prosecutors have new details tonight, tying members of Donald Trump's legal team to voting system breaches. We have that story next. You're live in the "CNN Newsroom."

[17:55:00]

And coming up tonight, what it's really like in the post-pandemic restaurant world? The Food Network's Bobby Flay joining the whole story with Anderson Cooper to see how the industry is adapting. You don't want to miss this episode. It's tonight at 8 p.m. Eastern, only on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DEAN: Live from Washington, I'm Jessica Dean, in for Jim Acosta, and you're in the "CNN Newsroom." It is 6 p.m. in Fulton County, Georgia and we begin this hour with a stunning new development in the investigation into election interference by Donald Trump and his allies.

[18:00:00]