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Hurricane Hilary A Category 2 As It Nears U.S.; Fears Of Predatory Land Grabs Mount In Hawaii; The Impact Of Trump Indictments On Voters; Hawaii Death Toll Reaches 144 & 1,000-Plus Still Missing; Fulton County Jurors Receive Online Threats; Trump Not Expected To Attend GOP Debate Wednesday; Publisher: Items Seized In Police Raid On Kansas Newspaper Returned and Headed For Analysis. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired August 19, 2023 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[17:01:58]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: You're back live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington. Good evening. We are tracking Hurricane Hilary. The system just weakened to a category two storm with winds of 110 miles per hour. The historic and potentially catastrophic storm is barreling toward the southwestern United States, triggering the first ever tropical storm warning for millions of people in Southern California.

The San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department just issued an evacuation warning for some areas in that part of Southern California. That's just east of Los Angeles in the mountain and foothill areas. Hilary could bring a year's worth of rain in a single day to parts of California, Arizona and Nevada. Let's go straight to the CNN Weather Center.

Meteorologist Derek Van Dam has been following the hurricane's path. Derek, I suppose it's good news that the hurricane is weakening at some point, but that doesn't necessarily mean that people in that part of the country can let down their guards or folks in Mexico as well. We should make it very clear, the folks in Mexico need to be very careful about this storm as well.

DEREK VAN DAM, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes, we don't want to diminish the threats associated with this storm even though it is weakening. Good news, we want to see that. But as with any tropical system, it has got an influx of moisture that's going to dump tremendous amounts of rain that will bring a flash flood threat to areas that haven't seen this amount of rain in several decades, right?

A 110 miles per hour, so that makes it a category two Atlantic equivalent. It is encountering significantly cooler waters and drier air, especially on the western sections of this storm system. Regardless, let's look at the exact forecast track because it will weaken further as it approaches. What we've noticed is two important things about this track.

Not only is it speeding up that forward speed continues to increase, it's also shifted a little further east. So what that's going to do? Just by the nature of the topography across the Baja Peninsula and into Southern California, it means that it will actually make landfall earlier than what we had anticipated, let's say 12 hours ago.

And also with this increase in forward speed, if you've been tuning intermittently, this storm is more of a Sunday storm for Southern California and the southwestern U.S. So we need as weather communicators to show you that because you may have anticipated a Monday morning type event, but this is really Sunday into Monday and we have our flash flood threat across this region, a level four of four.

Some locations have never had this type of flood threat in all of its history. So really we're working on a major flooding potential with this system. This is the latest radar dry along the coast. But look what's forming across the eastern sections of San Bernardino County. And I want to show you why this area is so susceptible to flooding.

And Jim pointed out in the opening of his show that there are some mandatory evacuations that are occurring right now. Here's San Bernardino, these are the San Bernardino Mountains. And just like a sponge being pushed against a wall, it is going to extract all the available moisture out and the water is going to run down into these villages. Oakland, forest falls, mountain home village, these are the areas that have the mandatory evacuations. And you can see why. Look at this mountainous terrain. All that water has to go somewhere.

[17:05:11]

Unfortunately, it flows quickly into the valleys and the communities below. So, Jim, we're concerned about these locations, but that is not the only area that we're concerned about. Palm Springs, the Desert Southwest, they're going to be seen maybe perhaps over a year's worth of rain in the next couple of days.

ACOSTA: Yes. And Derek, the waters of the Pacific, especially along the California coast, they're notorious for being somewhat more chilly than what we experience here on the East Coast. Might that have something to do with why the storm is weakening as rapidly as it is or maybe we're seeing other factors at play?

VAN DAM: Well, 100 percent, hurricanes, typhoons, tropical cyclones do not like cold water. And so you start getting into water temperatures that are below 80 degrees. Or you get perhaps some upwelling from a stronger storm system, which is what we've seen over the past 24 hours. This was a powerful Cat four just 24 hours ago. So what it's doing is it's taking the cold water from below.

Also, some of the coastal currents that are just off the coast of California, the Baja Peninsula, bring in the cooler water to this area. So all of these working against the storm, it'll help weaken it. That's the positive news because we want to see a weakening storm as it approaches the southwestern U.S. And we believe it will continue to do so.

And as it starts to impact or kind of get exchanged with the mountain ranges across this area, it will also help degrade the storm even further. But again, we cannot diminish the flood threat because of so much moisture being associated with the system as it moves onshore. Jim?

ACOSTA: All right, and people in that part of the country, please take all of these warnings very seriously. Derek Van Dam, thank you very much. As we mentioned earlier, there are already evacuation warnings in place for parts of Southern California. This could be the first time a storm like this has hit the state in more than 80 years. The California National Guard is standing by ready to help. A state emergency official tells CNN it's an all hands on deck situation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIAN FERGUSON, CAL OES: We have swift water rescue teams, high water vehicles positioned all over Southern California. We've also moved millions of pieces of commodities into the region, so cots, blankets, food, water in case we need to set up shelters. And so we really want to be on the front foot of this, and that's what's happening now.

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ACOSTA: CNN's Natasha Chen is live in Los Angeles. Natasha, it looks like the winds are picking up there a bit. How are things looking?

NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Picking up just a little bit, Jim. And we're expecting in the next hour to three hours that north of us in the Antelope Valley, they might see some scattered thunderstorms as the outer bands start coming in this direction, of course, nothing really significant until tomorrow.

This is something that, as we've been talking about, the people of Southern California are not used to. A tropical storm warning has never been issued here. Now, granted, this past winter was a very wet one. And so people are prepared for what to do in flood situations, but certainly usually not in the month of August. So I keep seeing cities and counties issue information about where to find sandbags, telling people to bring all their items indoors, to not go outside and drive tomorrow and Monday if at all possible.

We're seeing lots of events postponed or canceled. Three MLB games in Southern California scheduled for tomorrow ended up being moved today so that they could all double hitters. And the U.S. Navy has said that they are moving their ships and submarines temporarily out of San Diego while this storm comes through. So a lot of changes happening, a lot of preparations, including going to the encampments with loudspeakers, making sure those unhoused people, of which there are so many here in Southern California, typically enjoying the dry outdoor weather, letting them know it is time to find a place inside. Jim?

ACOSTA: All right, Natasha Chen, please stay safe. Hope everybody does the same. Thanks so much.

And we are monitoring yet another wildfire burning out of control, this one just outside of Spokane, Washington. Officials say at least one person is dead and nearly 200 structures damaged. So far the fire has not been contained. The county has declared a state of emergency and some residents have been asked to evacuate their homes.

We'll stay on top of that as that develops. And the death toll from the Maui wildfires has climbed to 114. Governor says 60 percent of the disaster zone has been searched. At least 1,000 people are still unaccounted for at this hour and thousands more have already lost everything that they own.

Amid all of this, there's growing concern about predatory outsiders swooping in to buy property at a fraction of its value. And native Hawaiian and former legislator Kaniela Ing joins us now. Kaniela, great to talk to you. I know you've had an up close view of the disaster there in Maui. And you write about it in a "Time" magazine essay titled, The Climate Crisis and Colonialism Destroyed My Maui Home. Where We Must Go From Here. Let's begin with that essay. Why did you write it and what message do you want to get across?

[17:10:29]

KANIELA ING, FORMER HAWAII STATE REPRESENTATIVE: Thank you, Jim. Yes, I've been in Lahaina throughout the week. I'll be back this afternoon. And as I stand talking to survivors and intaking their needs, there are dozens of cadaver dogs sniffing through the rubble in search of our loved ones. Utility workers in orange vests are picking up miles of electrical lines tangled up between the fissures of asphalt.

The sacred monuments and reminders of colonial harms have been reduced to ashes. And the response from the usual government and institutional flares have been well meaning but woefully inadequate. So community leaders have immediately filled the gaps with dozens of relief pubs. People led, we're fielding and distributing the outpouring of donations that we're seeing across the island.

There's a new leadership among a generation of Kanaka Maoli, Hawaiians emerging as beacons of hope throughout the chaos. Just yesterday, native Hawaiian leaders batted together to great Na 'Ohana o Lele. That's the families of the ancient name of Lahaina to demand that Governor Josh Green pause redevelopment, allow the community to grieve and heal, reinstate government transparency, the Sunshine Law and center the community innovation development process.

So right now, there's just a lot of like land grabbers, disaster capitalists kind of hovering above the wreckage like vultures and we got to build long term power, defend them off. We know this isn't going to be a sprint, but a marathon and it's going to take us years to rebuild.

So, you know, I've been busy. I finally wept the other day. It was brutal sadness. But it's also tears of joy for the uprising that our people are leading today to rebuild Maui ourselves and the leadership of our generation, especially Kanaka Maoli is really something to behold.

ACOSTA: Yes. And it's such a beautiful place. I've been to Hawaii several times, been to Maui, been to Lahaina. And I still can't believe what I'm seeing when I see what's taking place there. You know, this -- and I know Hawaii well enough to know that this is a constant fear for people who've been there for generations, that, you know, greedy land developers are going to exploit the people there.

And I guess how do you see this unfolding? As you know, the developers have a knack for winning a lot of these battles there in Hawaii. How do you stop that from happening this time around when it comes to the rebuilding of Lahaina?

ING: Yes, that's right. Local people, especially Native Hawaiians, have been suffering from injustices for generations now. My mom lost our home. She's forced to sell it without a fire. She couldn't keep up with the rising costs of a gentrified community. So today, Kanaka Maoli, there are more native Hawaiians living outside of Hawaii than on our ancestral lands. So this acute trauma is really just like a punctuation mark, an acceleration of decades of injustices that we faced.

Native folks, black, brown, immigrants are generally the first and worst hit by climate disasters. But the cruel irony is that we tend to be the keepers of the knowledge of how to build a society that doesn't lead to ecological collapse. So as we look forward, we need to be resourcing efforts like, you know, Na 'Ohana o Lele or Lahaina strong, which is a group of volunteers that are leading our own door to door efforts to help fulfill insurance claims and FEMA applications in order to grow power.

Because, you know, two years down the line, when redevelopment is happening in earnest, we need to show up as a community to rebuild schools and then maybe the next day take those same 200 people and testify at city council. That's really the path forward here. We need to be looking at direct relief, adjust, recovery and long term power for the rebuilding of Lahaina. That will cost at least $6 billion.

ACOSTA: Yes. It's going to be a massive undertaking. You're going to have a lot of folks around the country in the other 49 states, the mainlanders pulling for you all the way. Kaniela Ing, thank you very much for your time. We really appreciate it. Best of luck to you.

ING: Thank you so much.

ACOSTA: All right. Hang in there.

[17:14:42]

All right, coming up, the impact of Donald Trump's fourth indictment that is having on his poll numbers. We'll talk about that next. You're live with the CNN NEWSROOM.

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ACOSTA: Georgia proved to be a pivotal state in the 2020 presidential election, and its importance resonates today and looms throughout this coming week. Some of the Republican presidential candidates are now in Atlanta to make their case for 2024. It's called The Gathering, and it's hosted by conservative radio host Erick Erickson.

And in Fulton County, Donald Trump and his 18 co-defendants have until Friday to turn themselves in. There they are on screen right there. They're accused of conspiring to subvert the 2020 election results in Georgia. Sources tell CNN that the former president is expected to surrender on Thursday or Friday.

The Republican frontrunner is expected to skip his party's first presidential primary debate that's Wednesday night in Milwaukee. Trump is among eight candidates who have qualified, with others scrambling to meet a Monday night deadline. Is that indictment in Georgia having any effect on the voters? CNN senior data reporter Harry Enten joins us now with the answer.

Harry, we've talked about this several times this week. Trump was indicted for the fourth time. Do four indictments matter, any more than the previous three?

[17:20:03]

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Not really, no. You know, it's like deja vu all over again. I feel like Yogi Berra, right? I mean, we've now had four indictments. You look at the polling amongst the GOP base, do they think Trump should have been indicted? Look at the consistency here, 14 percent for the New York one, 50 percent for the efforts related to January 6th. The newest one, Georgia, the Georgia election case, 15 percent, the classified docs handling, 16 percent.

I guess you could say that's the highest percentage. But the fact is, they're all within the margin of error of each other. The GOP base has made up its mind when it comes to these indictments. They don't believe that Trump should have been charged with a crime. The vast majority believe that. And the fact is, it just does not seem like there's any changing of their minds on any of this, no matter how many indictments there are.

ACOSTA: And so are you seeing any impact on his standing, I mean, after these indictments? Or is it just essentially a non-starter for a lot of folks? They just made up their minds. I mean, it looks like those numbers you just showed there, those are maybe the Never Trumpers who just don't like Trump anyway.

ENTEN: Yes, that's right. And, you know, they make up about 15 percent of the Republican base. But the vast majority of the Republicans are not in that Never Trump camp. Look at the horse race numbers now compare it to where they were six months ago, and what do you see? In fact, you see Trump higher than he was back in February, six months ago, 53 percent, a recent "Fox News" poll. There has been movement downwards for one candidate, Ron DeSantis, who's dropped from 28 percent to 16 percent.

There is one other candidate, though. You interviewed him earlier this week, Ramaswamy, who wasn't even asked in their February poll. Look where he is now at 11 percent, according to "Fox News." So he is actually closing in on DeSantis for second place. But at this particular point, it is Donald Trump against the field. He has the majority of Republicans in his camp, and it doesn't seem like there's any stopping him at this particular point. Jim?

ACOSTA: And what about when it comes to the general electorate and Joe Biden?

ENTEN: Yes, you might think because the majority of Americans do believe that Trump did something illegal, at least one of those indictments, that it might be impacting his general election standing. But the fact is, look here, this is Quinnipiac University. It was a two point race in February. Look where it is now. It's a one point race, that's well within the margin of error. But take away one thing from this and one thing only if you take away only one thing. And that is I think there are a lot of Democrats who simply can't believe that Donald Trump can be elected president again.

The polling indicates that Trump is in fact, in a stronger position at this point than he was during the entire 2020 campaign, according to the national polls. If we had state level polling, I wouldn't even be surprised if Trump were ahead in the swing states that are most important. Jim?

ACOSTA: Right. And when the race is that close, it comes down to the Electoral College and who knows what happens with that. We don't even have those kinds of numbers just yet. But from a national standpoint, you're absolutely right. It is remarkable where Trump stands right now when it comes to the rest of this field and with general election voters. Harry Enten, as always, thank you very much. We appreciate it. Be sure to check out Harry's podcast Margins of Error. You can find it on your favorite podcast app or at CNN.com/audio.

At some point next week, as were just mentioning a few moments ago, Trump is expected to turn himself in at the Fulton County Jail in Atlanta. He and his codefendants are charged with 41 counts related to the 2020 election. District Attorney Fani Willis even slabbing each with a racketeering and corruption charge, accusing them of functioning essentially as a criminal gang. And that's the subject of my next guest, recent New York Times column headlined, This Indictment Does Something Ingenious. Former federal prosecutor in Georgia Amy Lee Copeland joins me now.

Amy Lee, thank you very much. Explain how this RICO statute works. Typically, when you hear about this sort of thing, we're talking about mobsters and the mafia and that sort of thing. How might it apply here?

AMY LEE COPELAND, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Thank you, Jim, for having me. So Georgia RICO is broader than its federal counterpart. It requires proof that there are two acts of racketeering activity that form a pattern. So all of the conspirators in this are alleged to be acting toward a common goal, which is to change the results of the presidential election.

The reason why it's ingenious is that it allows the DA to tell the whole story. While there are racketeering acts, which are statutorily defined, there are also overt acts which are just steps toward the finish line and a lot of the overt act, Jim, talk about things that happened in other states that are similar to what's going on in Georgia.

ACOSTA: And we know right now that the Trump team is negotiating with Fulton County officials over the terms of his surrender. Give us an idea of what that might look like and this prospect that Trump and these other defendants might be fingerprinted to have their mugshot taken. I would imagine, being the expert that you are in the Georgia legal system, it would be unusual if that does not occur.

[17:25:02]

COPELAND: In fact, Jim, the sheriff has said that that will occur, that unless someone tells him otherwise, these defendants are going to be treated like any other defendants. So when grand juries issue indictments in certain cases, they issue arrest warrants, which they've done in this case.

In lieu of having those arrest warrants executed, these defendants can appear at the sheriff's office sometime before the 25th, which is this coming Friday. At the Sheriff's office, the normal plan is a pat down search, an intake interview to determine your criminal history, fingerprinting, and a booking photo, which is commonly called a mugshot. Again, the sheriff has said that's what's going to happen. I'm open 24/7. You come at your convenience.

ACOSTA: And Amy Lee, many legal experts expect the Trump team to try to get this case moved to federal court. I think we've seen, I think, Mark Meadows, if I'm not mistaken, at least signal that he's going to try to do that. Do you think that could work out? Does that happen in Georgia sometimes? Might we see that happen here?

COPELAND: It has happened in Georgia as recently as a couple weeks ago. You know, the Fulton County two task force officers, which are local officers that are working for the federal government, have been charged with felony murder. And so they successfully removed the case to federal court. Here, Mr. Meadows has already made a removal request saying that the Supremacy Clause protects his actions.

I expect Mr. Trump and Mr. Clark to join in that request at some point in time. But the supremacy clause requires you to be acting in your capacity as a federal employee and acting within the bounds of federal law, doing something that is, in fact, federal. Here we have allegations that these defendants have been working to tamper with Georgia elections, and elections are solely a state prerogative. So I think it's going to be a difficult road for them.

The federal judge has set a hearing for August 28th, the lawyers call that the rocket docket because it's on there so fast. And so I think we'll all have answer soon.

ACOSTA: Yes, there's a lot moving very quickly, a lot of moving parts. Amy Lee Copeland, thanks for sorting it out for us. We really appreciate it. And we'll be right back.

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[17:31:13]

ACOSTA: Back to one of our top stories, Maui's misery. As devastating as the fires are, there are work signs to decipher concerning how Hawaii navigates its future.

And that's what we want to talk about right now with climate scientist, Michael Mann. He joins me now. He's the director for science, sustainability, and the media at the University of Pennsylvania.

He's also the author of "Our Fragile Moment: How Lessons from Earth's Past Can Help Us Survive the Climate Crisis."

Let's just get right to this, Professor Mann. I mean, how did climate change play a role in what took place in Maui? Is it too soon to put a pin on that? What have you been able to decipher?

MICHAEL MANN, DIRECTOR FOR SCIENCE, SUSTAINABILITY AND THE MEDIA, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA & AUTHOR: Thanks, Jim. It's good to be with you.

No, it isn't. We can talk about how various attributes of climate change sort of laid the groundwork for what played out.

First of all, there's a long-term trend towards drying in that region. It's been getting drier, less precipitation. Temperature has been increasing as it has around the planet. But that means more evaporation of moisture from soil.

So you put those two things together, you're going to get worse drought. And so there's a trend towards worse drought.

And what we saw, in fact, was extreme drought in parts of the island that were impacted where those wildfires spread rapidly and did so much damage.

And there's another ingredient, which is that the winds that helped, for example, knock down those power lines and helped spread the fire, those very strong winds were related to a high-pressure system to the north and a hurricane, a very low-pressure hurricane, that traveled to the south.

That hurricane intensified very quickly on very warm waters in the eastern Pacific. That meant that those winds were stronger, that those pressure differences were stronger. The winds were stronger.

An estimate that was done that the winds were at least 5 percent to 6 percent stronger because of that hurricane. And that hurricane intensified so quickly because of those warm waters.

Those waters are so warm, in part, because of an El Nino event but also because of the large-scale warming of the planet from carbon pollution, from the burning of fossil fuels.

ACOSTA: And I mean, so much loss. It happened so quickly.

Given what is taking place with climate change around the world, and Hawaii, as beautiful as it is, is obviously not immune from the devastating effects of climate change. Should Hawaii have been better prepared? Should they have seen this coming? How did this unbelievable, just unimaginable devastation -- how did it take place so quickly?

And could it have been avoided in any way? Was this just one of those situations where the right ingredients were present for something as bad as this to happen?

MANN: Yes. You know, we can second guess some of the decisions that were made. And that discussion will, you know, I'm sure, go on for weeks.

And I'm not sure I have any special, you know, expertise to speak to some of those larger questions.

But what I can say is that Hawaii has to recognize that it is dealing with an increased level of threat.

Even regions, you know, places that we think of as tropical paradises -- Hawaii is one of my favorite places to vacation. But these tropical paradises, we're seeing climate change impact them.

No place on earth, even those areas that we think of as paradises, including Paradise, California, sadly, are, you know -- have been free from the impacts of climate change, from the deleterious impacts of climate change.

That's what we've seen play out in this tropical paradise. So, there's a new level of risk that Hawaii needs to deal with.

[17:34:57]

Ultimately, you know, there are steps that we can take to try to adapt to this drier environment. Land use policies, zoning issues about how we deal with invasive grasses that might have contributed to this problem.

There are things that we can do to try to increase our resilience. But there is no amount of adaptation that will prepare us for what's to come if we fail to deal with the underlying problem.

Which is the warming of the planet from the burning of fossil fuels and the increase in carbon pollution that's resulting from that.

ACOSTA: And one of the things that we've been talking about, Michael, is this prospect that developers, land developers, are going to try to come in and exploit the situation in Lahaina.

And obviously, the state of Hawaii has to be mindful of that when it comes to the effects of climate change, because things are only going to get worse.

The developers can't just be allowed to go in there and do what they want.

MANN: Yes, it's a great point, Jim. And it sort of underscores the issue of climate justice and the need for us to deal with the, you know, the climate crisis in a just manner.

Because climate change is impacting sort of our social politics, our socioeconomics, and in this case, this disaster.

And there are a number of factors that came together, but climate change was an important part of it.

Now, what we're seeing is, in the wake of this climate change, you know, driven disaster, that there's special interests that are coming in to try to exploit that.

And who's going to lose out? It's going to be the downtrodden, those with the least resources, those with the least wealth.

And so it really sort of underscores the fact that climate is a matter of justice. Climate action is a matter of justice.

ACOSTA: All right, Michael Mannn, great to talk to you as always. Thanks for the time. We'll have you back. Really appreciate it.

MANN: You, took, Jim. Thanks.

ACOSTA: All right, thank you.

Some of the grand jurors in Fulton County, Georgia, who voted to indict former President Trump are facing threats from no-name, faceless individuals operating on the dark web. And there are fears that this is just a sign of things to come.

We'll talk about that in just a few moments with Miles Taylor, the author of "Blowback." He joins me in just a few moments.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

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[17:41:22]

ACOSTA: The FBI is investigating online threats against grand jurors who voted this week to indict former President Donald Trump in Fulton County, Georgia.

Some jurors have had their addresses, phone numbers, and social media accounts shared on the Internet after their names were made public in the 98-page indictment.

Joining us now to talk about this and other aspects of the Trump case is Miles Taylor. He's the former chief of staff at the Department of Homeland Security during the Trump administration, the author of the new book, "Blowback: A Warning to Save Democracy from the Next Trump."

And I suppose there's the current Trump as well to talk about.

You know, he's made these inflammatory comments about the judge, about the special counsel, and so on in these cases. You worked in his administration. How do you think this is going to

play out? I've talked to -- I was talking with John Dean about this last night.

It's going to be difficult to constrain him. And it seems as though he thinks he can just cross the line and nothing's going to happen --

(CROSSTALK)

ACOSTA: -- based on past experience.

MILES TAYLOR, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP & AUTHOR: Genuinely, Jim, I've been living inside of this data about political threats and political intimidation. and I worry, legitimately, that people are going to die.

And we are seeing the threat of political assassination in this country is off the charts.

And the experts I talked to compare it to only one thing, the 1960s. And we, of course, saw political violence. We saw political assassination in the 1960s. God forbid that happens, but the data supports that there's that danger.

Look, we just saw the president of the United States threatened with an assassination plot. We saw on January 6th the vice president of the United States threatened with death. We saw Nancy Pelosi, the speaker of the House, her home broken into.

That's the presidential line of succession, not to mention the senior members of Congress, the Supreme Court justices, who have been threatened with death.

The governor of Michigan, who had an assassination plot, and this array of state and local election officials. So I do worry about it.

And we saw, after his home was raided a year ago, a man went to the FBI field office in Ohio and shot it up.

The judge here in D.C., after he was charged, has been threatened with assassination.

And of course. now the jurors in Georgia in the case after he was indicted have been doxed and threatened. I do worry we are seeing the light blinking red.

ACOSTA: And next week, he's expected to surrender at the Fulton County jail. We might see a mug shot emerge from that.

How do you think Trump will try to use this to his advantage? And I suppose, what might be the blowback from that sort of thing happening?

Should officials be taking that into consideration? Or is it more important that there be a deterrent and he is treated like everybody else who goes to the criminal justice system?

TAYLOR: Well, the "how he uses it" is the big question. Whether he uses it is an almost certainty.

And again, we have history as our guide here. In 2016, Trump welcomed Russian interference to meddle in the election. In 2020, Trump himself tried to overturn the election in his favor. In 2024.

Again, we can be certain he's going to try to sow chaos in the election. But we don't know how, and when he's going to do that.

But if he loses in the primaries, you can imagine Trump objecting to that loss. If he is indicted, you can imagine Trump, again, trying to meddle with the election and prevent other candidates from moving forward.

And certainly, we haven't talked about, yet, the introduction of third-party candidates in this election and the fact that there are organizations that will try to sue Trump off the ballot.

All of those things offer opportunities for him to claim a foul.

ACOSTA: In one of the previous segments, I was talking to our numbers guru, Harry Enten about, you know, where the poll numbers are right now with him and Joe -- we might not be able to fly this up on screen, but they're neck and neck.

[17:45:59]

If you look at the way it was back in February, there are maybe one or two points apart, Trump and Biden. After all these indictments, they're about one or two points apart.

There's a real possibility that Donald Trump will be elected president of the United States again.

You talk about this in your book. What might happen should that occur. What are you trying to warn the public about?

TAYLOR: Well, look, I think we do have to take it seriously, because the odds are quite high. And if he gets elected, one of the first things you can expect is he's going to have a cabinet of co- conspirators.

Some of these people are people he wants to bring into his cabinet, people who are willing to say, yes, subvert the constitution, ignore the legislature, ignore the justice system.

And again, Trump official after Trump official validated to me their belief that in a second term, he will ignore those Democratic guardrails. He'll weaponize the justice system to prosecute opponents.

He'll weaponize the spy agencies to potentially spy on political opponents. And he'll certainly ignore the media.

I mean, I remember, Jim, when they revoked your press pass at the White House, and they were gleeful about it.

That was just the teeny, tippy, top of the iceberg of what they will do to try to make the press, in their words, "the enemy of the people."

It's very chilling what folks lay out in "Blowback" might happen in a second term.

ACOSTA: So much more to talk about this. We need to get you back another time and dive into this further.

But it seems to me that the rest of the Republican Party -- I mean, we talk about this with Harry. They seem to be OK with what Donald Trump is selling. He's advertising himself as the candidate of retribution.

And having been inside that administration and see him behave in the way he does, I would have to think that you almost more than anybody else believe Donald Trump when he says, I am the candidate of retribution.

TAYLOR: He is. And when he was writing, "Blowback," person after person indicated that the theme of a second term would be retribution. It would be revenge.

To me, that felt hyperbolic. Then Donald Trump came and said the quiet part out loud.

He's made it clear that's the theme not just of the campaign but, if he's back in the Oval Office, you can imagine, department by department, the goal will be revenge, retribution against political adversaries.

And as a conservative, that's not how we imagine government should operate. So I do hope, in the primaries, his opponents actually use that to their advantage.

ACOSTA: All right, and we haven't seen that, thus far. But we'll wait and see as these debates get going.

Miles Taylor, thank you so much.

TAYLOR: Thank you.

ACOSTA: We'll be right back.

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[17:51:55]

ACOSTA: The first Republican primary debate is just four days away. Right now, eight candidates qualify to be on the stage in Milwaukee on Wednesday.

It is the one candidate who seems committed to not debating that night who is getting all the attention. You probably don't need to guess who that is.

Let's bring in CNN's senior media reporter, Oliver Darcy.

Oliver, of course, we're talking about the former president. He won't be at the debate Wednesday. That has to be a big blow to fox. They were on hands and knees just about trying to get Trump to appear at this debate.

OLIVER DARCY, CNN SENIOR MEDIA REPORTER: I think, without question, this is going to be a big blow to FOX's ratings on that night.

You'll remember the first GOP debate in 2015, the primary debate, that averaged about 24 million viewers. It was a record as the entire Republican field took on Donald Trump.

So without him on that stage, I think you will see much lower numbers for the ratings.

And I think it is really remarkable. You've had the FOX executives going to his club, trying to basically plead that he'll debate.

You've had hosts on air trying to encourage him to debate. They've been on hand and knees trying to get him at that debate.

In addition, this is a network that has been pushing a lot of Donald Trump propaganda. Not only during his administration, of course/

But in the past few months as he's been indicted time and time again, you've seen the channel's biggest hosts really peddle dark sinister rhetoric aimed at defending him. and still he is refusing to appear at their debate.

ACOSTA: It is extraordinary that it is not enough for him. And yet he'll go with Tucker Carlson, the ousted FOX host. How will that play out?

I suppose the viewers have the option to watch him with Tucker Carlson.

DARCY: I'm not sure the Tucker Carlson thing will really be the thing that eats FOX's ratings, but I think him not appearing will hurt.

It is symbolic. Carlson and Trump really are lashing out at Rupert Murdoch. Donald Trump has been very vocal about it.

And Tucker Carlson is in a very big legal dispute with Murdoch after he was fired from the channel. So it makes sense that Donald Trump would go to Tucker Carlson.

I'm sure that is really just getting under Rupert Murdoch's skin. Not only will Trump not be on his stage but he's going to Tucker Carlson's.

ACOSTA: Very quickly, any update on the police raid in central Kansas? What's the latest out there?

DARCY: Yes, Jim, it seems that the search warrant, there wasn't enough of a link between a potential crime and the need to search the newsrooms and seize all their equipment.

That's according to the county prosecutor who returned all the seized electronics back to the newspaper.

Now there are some really big questions on whether the police and the judge who signed off on this warrant went outside the law, maybe violated the law.

[17:55:02]

I know a lot of lawyers have looked at this and they've said it is very suspicious given that it is very rare for newsrooms to be raided like this in the United States. And prosecutors are asking for more information.

And of course, the publisher of the paper has indicated they may take legal action. So I think now the paper is on the offense, if you will.

And there are a lot more questions that hopefully will be answered in the coming days and weeks.

ACOSTA: Yes. Some big questions answered on that one.

Oliver Darcy, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

In the meantime, this week's "CNN Hero" is a social worker whose own cancer diagnosis who was challenge to obtain life-saving treatments inspired her to help others cancer patients and their families living on her Native American reservation.

Meet Tescha Hawley.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TESCHA HAWLEY, CNN HERO: Our reservation was about 30 Miles from the Canadian border in north central Montana. You're probably about a good three hours to major hospitals.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. We're on our way.

HAWLEY: We know the need is huge for transportation. The majority of our people are living in poverty.

If I didn't physically transport them and help them with food, hotel or gas.

I started getting into the nutrition of it. If we could eat healthy, it will reduce our risk of cancer.

Hi!

We have done distributions of fresh fruits and vegetables, fresh eggs, and we join in collaboration with our tribe to help harvest our buffalo.

Prior to my diagnosis with cancer, I thought my life was based on my professional career and my education. But now I know that this is my calling.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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