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70,000 People Stranded In Burning Man Festival After Heavy Rains; Trump Could Be Disqualified For Presidency Under The 14th Amendment; President Zelenskyy To Replace His Defense Minister. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired September 03, 2023 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

JEANNE MOSS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Some online commenters were annoyed. Him and Adele thought it was fine. But I'm sure the people who paid a ton of money to sit behind him and stare at the back of his head are pissed. And more succinctly, you're not special just sit the F down. But he wasn't sitting.

UNKNOWN: Thank you! Thank you!

MOSS: When he posted a clip on TikTok, the unidentified fan wrote to Adele, "you started talking to me and I literally stopped breathing." His hand visibly trembled as he took a drink.

ADELE, MUSICIAN: You enjoy the show. Leave him alone.

MOSS: When Adele stopped singing, even security changes its tune. Jeanne Moss, CNN, New York.

UNKNOWN: The CNN Newsroom continues with Jim Acosta right now.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: You are live in the "CNN Newsroom." I'm Jim Acosta in Washington. Good evening. We begin this hour with 70,000 people estimated stranded in the Nevada desert. They came for the normally sun soaked and raucous Burning Man festival, but extreme weather crashed the party. A storm dumped two or three months' worth of rain in just 24 hours. One death during the downpour is being investigated.

Attendees are now bogged down in thick ankle-deep mud, making driving impossible and walking a (inaudible) for many people. They're being told to conserve water, food and fuel at this point. Earlier on CNN, one woman described her efforts to escape the mud fest.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GILLIAN BERGERON, HAD TO HITCH A RIDE OUT OF BURNING MAN: It was kind of a crazy thing, but I hitched a ride with an ATV that was heading out that needed to get somebody more important than me out to the front area. They were willing to let me sit in the back, and so got a ride out to the main road. And then when I got out there, I immediately found a guy who was towing a vehicle that had gotten in some type of an accident and asked him if I could hop into the crashed vehicle on his trailer and catch a ride to wherever he was going. And he got me to Fernley, Nevada. And then from Fernley, I grabbed an Uber to Reno and I headed to the airport.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: CNN's Camila Bernal joins us now. Camila, how are things going now? What are you hearing from folks?

CAMILA BERNAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Jim. So, this is what organizers are saying is the beginning of the exodus. So, you're seeing all the cars here behind me. This is essentially as close as we can get to the playa, right? So behind me is the playa. It's about two miles away from here where the festival is actually taking place. And here you're seeing the car of line -- the line of cars, excuse me, trying to get out.

These are the people that are getting out despite the fact that there is a shelter in place and despite the fact that officials are telling them that the roads are closed. There's plenty of people that are coming out, but of course, you're seeing the mud stuck to all of the cars and also the people that are walking here telling me that they had been walking for hours through the mud. Some have told me it's taken an hour. Others have told me, look, it's taken me three hours to get out of here.

But all of them, very positive and saying that they've had a really good experience. But of course, it came to an end when it started raining and all of this sand started turning into this cakey mud, and so that's what a lot of them are dealing with right now. I do want to bring in Raj who just walked out of the festival. So, Raj, tell us about what it was like walking out today.

RAJ KAPOOR, ATTENDED BURNING MAN FESTIVAL: Walking out was really interesting. First of all, beautiful vistas, but lots of mud that caked on the feet, and then you grew bigger feet as you were walking through, and we had to cross a few rivers. But they were really good spirits and we were able to do it.

BERNAL: And how long did it take you and why did you decide to come out today despite the fact that everyone's being told to shelter in place?

KAPOOR: So, we decided to come out today because of child care and it's important to get back to the family. Originally, I was going to leave yesterday, and of course because of the rains and the conditions stayed there, thought it was safe enough to start walking and always could turn back if that was a problem, but everyone was really supportive and helpful.

BERNAL: And so, you left part of your group behind. Why did you leave part of the group behind versus you coming out to walk and what are they experiencing?

KAPOOR: So, the group right now is cleaning up and putting the camp in order and so that we can take people in that really need it. Part of what I left behind was my RV full of supplies and a very clean and safe place to sleep for people that don't have necessarily a great place to sleep as well. So, we're keeping the RV here so that they can utilize it for people who are really in need and also the supplies that are there.

BERNAL: At any point, were you guys worried about food, water? You had a place to sleep but others did not. Were you worried about essentially the supplies and what you had there?

KAPOOR: So, the thing about Burning Man that I think is so different than other events is that this is all about resilience and self- reliance, and so people came really prepared.

[17:04:58]

And the culture is very open, where if we have extra supplies, we give them to others. And if like someone came by our tent and gave us some extra propane tanks because they saw that we we're short on propane. So, it's a very giving culture that continued despite these really crazy conditions.

BERNAL: You were not expecting this? You weren't expecting to walk? I'm assuming, what was it like in comparison to other years or other experiences that you had?

KAPOOR: So, I wasn't expecting this walk. However, I work in climate and no year's ever going to be the same for any place or festival like this. And so, there's going to be these unexpected, unpredictable events that happened that we have to be ready for.

BERNAL: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. It's a similar story with everyone else that I've been talking to, remaining very positive, but of course going through the walk or the drive, which has not been easy for a lot of people, Jim.

ACOSTA: All right, Camila Bernal, thank you very much. Let's bring in another one of the attendees still at the Burning Man Festival. Angela Peacock is joining us now. Angela, thanks so much for joining us. I see you're under a tent there. How are the conditions at this hour? How are you doing?

ANGELA PEACOCK, STRANDED AT BURNING MAN FESTIVAL: Well, here's what it looks like on your feet. It's horrible.

ACOSTA: Wow.

PEACOCK: Everything is wet. Everything is muddy. But all of our spirits are really high. Like the previous person said, we're all kind of coming together as a community, making sure we all get packed up and break down camp safely. Everybody's eating. Everybody's got water. Everything is pretty good.

ACOSTA: And you know, we were just showing some drone footage a few moments ago that just showed all of these cars and RVs and pickup trucks and everything, you name it, just stuck in this mud, people trying to get out and so on. What's the deal here? How did this happen? How did it come about? Can you talk about that? PEACOCK: Well, I mean, it started 5:00 around on Friday evening and

most of us, you know, we didn't think it was going to be this like, we knew it was going to rain, but it ended up raining all night. And most of us just went to bed because the programming kind of stopped. All the music stopped. Uh, you know, we were worried about electricity and short with like standing water on the ground.

So, everybody, at least in my camp, we all went to sleep. We caught up on lots of the whole week of not sleeping. And when we woke up, we woke up to this huge mess, like, oh my God, what just happened, you know? Water was coming into the tent and it was really shocking. I don't think any of us really expected like the impact, but again we were we're prepared for it. We're just fine.

ACOSTA: Yeah, I get it. And I know a lot of folks are saying, hey, we came prepared. Folks are helping out other folks. And we don't want to over dramatize things or anything like that. But were there some concerns for people's safety at certain points when you're in the middle of all of this, that this rain was just a little out of control and the mud was a little out of control and this might be a little bit unsafe?

PEACOCK: I think more it was more like do we have enough food if we're stuck here for like 36 hours. The porta-potty for instance, they're pretty full right now and everybody's kind of, I mean, you have to go so we're kind of trying to space it out go to the more empty ones.

We practice leave no trace principles so we're keeping everything clean and pulling all trash out like making sure no trash gets stuck in the mud, toilet paper flying, all that kind of stuff.

So, it's more of like a logistical thing. When are we going to leave? How do you change your flight if you need to fly out from a neighboring airport? And do we have enough food and water and supplies to make it if we're stuck for a little while.

ACOSTA: And I guess what was the deal with the logjam of cars and RVs and everything? The mud was just so deep that the tires were spinning and people just couldn't get traction and couldn't get out. And then just what you were showing us with your feet -- your feet a few moments ago, I imagine after walking 100 yards or so, that's going to get really difficult to just walk out with all that mud caked on your feet. I mean, is that kind of it?

PEACOCK: I mean, I can't believe they tried that because it's literally like a couple miles to the gate. I mean, that is a feat because just walking to the bathroom in here, I mean, it's a workout. Like you're heavy breathing and sweating by the time you get to the bathroom. So, we were told this morning to shelter in place and to not try to drive out unless you had all wheel drive or four-wheel drive because once some cars get stuck, it's going to back all these 70,000 people from getting out the next day or the day after. We don't want a bunch of cars stuck. So, everybody's pretty cool about staying where we are.

ACOSTA: Right. That way, things dry out and then the cars can move when the conditions improve.

PEACOCK: And we all can leave. Yeah.

ACOSTA: Yeah. We're glad you're hanging in there. I guess you're going to stay until the end?

PEACOCK: I'm here till the end, and I'll be back next year, rain or shine.

ACOSTA: Alright, very good. Angela Peacock, thank you very much for your time. We really appreciate it.

PEACOCK: Thanks.

ACOSTA: Alright, thank you. Good luck.

Still ahead, the legal debate over Donald Trump and whether his election interference indictments make him ineligible to be on the ballot in 2024. I'll ask Michigan's Secretary of State what she thinks.

[17:09:59]

Plus, debt deja vu, the key revenue that could be disrupted if Congress can't make a deal on funding the government soon. And it is 5:00 in Margaritaville. How Key West is paying tribute to Jimmy Buffett this hour. We'll talk about that as well. You're live in the "CNN Newsroom."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ACOSTA: As the election interference probes into former President Donald Trump intensifies, some legal scholars believe he's barred from serving again based on language in the U.S. Constitution. They say the 14th Amendment's disqualification clause expressly forbids anyone from serving who's engaged in an insurrection or rebellion against the government. Democratic Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia thinks it's a possibility. Here's what he said on ABC News.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): In my view, the attack on the Capitol that day was designed for a particular purpose at a particular moment, and that was to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power as is laid out in the Constitution.

[17:15:00]

So, I think there is a powerful argument to be made. My sense is it's probably going to get resolved in the courts. But, you know, I think what we have to focus on our side is we just got to win in 2024.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Right now, election officials in some battleground states are studying the viability of that 14th Amendment argument. One of them is Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson, who joins us now. Secretary Benson, great to see you as always. Appreciate you coming on. Quick question, just to get us started here. How much are you and your team looking into this issue? What are your thoughts on this?

JOCELYN BENSON, SECRETARY OF STATE OF MICHIGAN: Well, thanks for having me. You know, I think this is a critical issue. It's an issue that is not going to go away anytime soon, and it's one we have to, and we are taking very seriously because the arguments for disqualification are quite strong.

That said, there are counterarguments on the other side that recognize really the unprecedented moment that we're in and the timing of disqualification and the question of who exactly makes that determination. What is an insurrection or rebellion? What is giving aid or comfort?

So, all of that has really never been answered before and it's never been answered by the courts. And that's why I do think that while election officials may make a determination on this issue, it will ultimately be resolved by the U.S. Supreme Court.

ACOSTA: And is this something that you, in particular, your office in particular, would have to weighed into when it comes to putting names on the ballot in the state of Michigan? And have you made any kind of determination at this point? Are you going to insert yourself into this and make that determination?

BENSON: Well, we're going through this in a very methodical way, and talking to legal scholars on all sides of the spectrum, and really fleshing out all of the particulars. And I'm also in close contact with my colleagues in Nevada, and Pennsylvania, and Georgia, and New Hampshire, because we want to get this right.

We recognize the weightiness of this decision. We recognize the importance of our role as state officials in this moment. And we also have this ongoing question of timing. There's a decision about who gets on the primary ballot that will be made this fall in most states, that there'll no be a secondary decision point if indeed this candidate is nominated by the Republican Party next summer.

And so, we also, you know, are seeing this unveil or evolve at the same time these court proceedings are also evolving. So, all of it is, has lots of variables, lots of moving pieces, but it requires us to take a serious -- put serious attention into it, and that's what we're doing. We'll also likely ask our attorney general to weigh in, and again, we're in conversation with others as well to see and to know where everyone else is at in terms of their own state law interpretation.

ACOSTA: And okay, so it sounds like this is a work in progress. Is there a timeline at all as to when you might want to come up with an answer on this and make that kind of judgment call?

BENSON: Well, Nevada is the state that will be making the first determination on in early October as to who goes on their primary or caucus ballot. And then Michigan and other states follow in November. And usually, the process is determined for us in Michigan throughout November and finalized in December in terms of who's on the primary ballot.

And there's another wrinkle as well in terms of how court cases resolve this and the timing of the actual printing of the ballots. If a court were to rule someone ineligible, how does that impact the printing of the ballots and all these other details we have to consider. So, it's a tight timeline, and that's why we really need the courts to engage and resolve this for all of us sooner rather than later.

And so, I think you can anticipate you'll see a lot of things happen over the next several months on this, with all of us recognizing that we may go through this a second time as court cases play out, as perhaps convictions get handled down, and perhaps is there a primary nomination process next summer through the conventions that we have to have an eye on as well.

ACOSTA: And yesterday we spoke with conservative journalist David Frum who is also a Trump critic. He said that Democrats really should just focus on beating Trump in the next election instead of trying to block the former president from getting on the ballot. What do you think of that?

BENSON: Well, the law is the law, and the Constitution is the Constitution. And my job is to make sure the law is followed and the Constitution is upheld in all things. But there is also something to consider with regards to democracy and the importance of voters having a say and a choice. And that weighs very heavily on me as well.

And I know myself and my other colleagues and I, we've talked about this, the importance of ensuring voters do have that choice and the danger any time anyone weighs in on that or tries to in any way other than what the law requires, be involved. And so, there's a great reticence and reluctance for us to be involved in this issue.

We would and I certainly would want to see the voters have choice and choices at the ballot box on all fronts. But that said, my job first and foremost is to follow the law, to uphold the Constitution, and that's my North Star in this moment.

[17:19:54]

ACOSTA: And I guess another question in all of this is does Trump need to be convicted in these election interference cases at the federal level and or in Fulton County to bolster the case for using the 14th Amendment? Might that have an impact on all of this?

BENSON: Certainly. And that is something one of the unknowns and the evolving factors in this. I think any determination needs to be based on evidence and facts. And those questions are going to be resolved by courts as we go forward. So, it's why we have to, in some ways, assume this is going to be an issue throughout this whole election cycle, perhaps even after it's over, depending on how the election cycle goes. So, we have to, you know, take this seriously as a discussion. And I

really welcome the discussion. It's an important one to have. And, you know, folks should know we're going to take this as seriously as our office requires. And note that in past cases, like I think in the New Mexico case where someone was disqualified for their involvement in January 6, that did happen, I believe, after a conviction.

And so, we're mindful of that as well. And determinations made pre, you know, trial processes playing out, have a different weight to those who are made -- that are made -- those decisions that are made after the legal cases play themselves out.

ACOSTA: Alright, Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson, thanks as always for your time. We appreciate it.

BENSON: Thanks for having me.

ACOSTA: Alright, thank you. In the meantime, Russia targets key infrastructure in Ukraine and why President Zelenskyy says he'll replace his defense minister. We'll break down the latest, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:25:56]

ACOSTA: A big shakeup this evening in the Ukrainian military. President Zelensky says he'll replace his defense minister, saying the ministry needs, quote, "new approaches." Let's discuss. CNN military analyst and retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling joins us now. General, as you just heard, Zelenskyy is replacing his defense minister. What do you make of this move?

MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: This has been bubbling for a couple days, Jim. The defense ministry has been accused of actually having several issues regarding corruption. Most recently, it had to do with winter uniforms. It's really unfortunate, because Minister Reznikov, who is the one being relieved, is, first of all, a very good friend of the West. Him and Secretary Austin have established a great relationship. He is a very good man.

But truthfully, in the past, in dealing with Ukraine, corruption within the government, corruption within the ministries, has been a major problem. President Zelenskyy ran on eliminating corruption. He has done a very good job in the last couple of years, but there is still a little bit of a culture of that kind of corruption within the government of Ukraine, and many people don't really know about that.

ACOSTA: And could there be a battlefield impact from all of this? I see that Zelenskyy is nominating Rustem Umerov to become the new defense minister. Any thoughts on him? And what do you think the impact of this is going to be?

HERTLING: Yeah, Umerov has been in the government for the last couple of years. He was born in Uzbekistan. He has been in Ukraine since long before the war started, actually the first war. And he evidently is a very good man. But as I said a minute ago, corruption used to be rampant not only in

the ministries, but in the military. So, to answer your question, will this affect the military itself? I don't think so in terms of the fighting forces. I had a conversation with a group of soldiers in 2016 that had just come back from the Donbas and they told me that was their biggest concern, that their generals and their colonels were corrupt.

I don't think we see that anymore in the Ukrainian military. They are fighting hard. But like many governments throughout the world, inside of various ministries, there are individuals who will take advantage of these unfortunate situations for Ukraine and grift off of the prices that are allocated toward fund that are actually contributing to the military.

ACOSTA: And, you know, General, Ukraine says it is focusing on consolidating battlefield gains as Ukrainians and U.S. officials push back on these counteroffensives, I guess, criticisms that the counteroffensive is moving too slowly. What is your sense of Ukraine's progress, the counteroffensive? Might a new defense minister help in that regard?

HERTLING: Well, I'll start off by simply saying, Jim, the Ukrainian offensive has been good. They have made - they have succeeded in many fronts. It is going slower than some would like. I'm not one of those, because I understand how difficult what the Ukrainian army is facing on the battlefield with just massive, strewn mines across the front. But it's also, for me, a little bit distasteful for anyone who's not on the battlefield or within the military of Ukraine to make comment about how fast or slow they're going.

Truthfully, Jim, I experienced the same thing in combat in Iraq, when others would say, hey, you're not doing enough or you're not doing this. It's a whole lot tougher to actually do the things that people want you to do than it is for soldiers who are fighting their hardest and, in fact, in the case of Ukraine, dying and being wounded on the front. So yeah, I'm with Mr. Kuleba who said earlier in the week that people who are basically slamming Ukraine for the pace of their operations should just, and his words, not mine, shut up. But I agree with that completely.

[17:29:59]

If you're not on the front lines, if you're not carrying a rifle, you probably should not be, from the Pentagon or other places, from NATO headquarters, be talking about how, especially in an anonymous way, how slow the effort is going.

ACOSTA: Yeah. I mean, we are heading into the fall of 2023. A lot of folks at the beginning of all this never thought Ukraine would have an offensive period, let alone a counteroffensive. So, I mean, there are -- in some ways, they're battling against expectations that have been raised.

HERTLING: Yeah, you know, it's interesting, Jim, at the beginning of the war, as you remember, a lot of people were saying, hey, how come the Americans thought the Russians were 10 feet tall? They can't do a lot of the things that you're supposed --

ACOSTA: Yeah.

HERTLING: -- to do on a battlefield. Now, those same critics are saying, how come Ukraine isn't -- they seem to be 10 feet tall, how come they're not doing the things we anticipate them doing? Well, it's because conditions on the battlefield really determine how fast or how slow you get.

And when you're talking about an offensive across the 4 to 600- kilometer front, which is what Ukraine is attempting to do, it's very difficult, especially when you've got new weapons, new commanders. This is the first time you've done this. So, yeah, it's very difficult and we should allow them to continue to fight the way they think they need to fight.

ACOSTA: All right, Lieutenant General Mark Hurtling, great to talk to you as always. Appreciate it.

HERTLING. Pleasure, Jim. Thanks.

ACOSTA: All right. Thank you. An update now on an inspirational story we brought you just last week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN (voice-over): (INAUDIBLE).

(APPLAUSE)

ACOSTA: There she is, 12-year-old Yana Stepanenko. She ran a portion of a marathon in Western Ukraine today. She is just learning to run with prosthetic legs, and she completed a stunning 230 feet or 76 yards in the race.

Yana, you might remember, we profiled her last week, she lost both of her legs. Her mother lost one in a Russian railway attack last April. At least 50 people died in that attack, including five children. And as I mentioned, I talked to Yana just last week about this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Yana, what do you think about what you have gone through?

UNKNOWN (voice-over): First, it was difficult, but she, after a while, she got used to this process and it got much easier over time for her.

ACOSTA: Will you be going back to school when you go back to Ukraine?

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Yes, she plans to.

ACOSTA: Do you look forward to going back to school?

UNKNOWN (voice-over): School is the least exciting part, but she's really excited to see her grandma.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Yana is just a precious young lady. She and her mother just ended a year-long trip to the U.S. for rehab. She visited a bunch of fun places, as she was telling me during that interview. Her favorite, as she told me, was Legoland. We wish her the best as she's back in her native country and getting on with her life and making strides already, participating in that marathon earlier today. Good for her and her mom.

Still ahead, Congress returns to work next week and a big priority is to keep the government from stopping its work. But there is once again a big gap between what the White House and Republican lawmakers want funded.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: In the meantime, it is 5:00 in Key West. How people there are paying tribute to Jimmy Buffett. You're looking at live pictures right now in Key West, Florida as revelers there in Key West pay tribute to the music legend. We talked about so much yesterday. We passed away this Labor Day weekend. We'll be talking about all of this in just a few moments. Stay with us. Parrotheads, stay tuned. We'll talk more about Jimmy Buffett in just a few moments. Be right back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:38:11]

ACOSTA: New month brings with it an old problem, another looming government shutdown. The Biden White House is calling on Congress to pass a temporary spending bill to keep Washington running, but some GOP hardliners are threatening to block the measure unless the administration meets their demands.

CNN White House reporter Priscilla Alvarez joins us now from Rehoboth Beach, Delaware where the president is spending the Labor Day weekend. Priscilla, what are the Republican demands? What's the White House saying in response?

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Jim, all of this is really going to be a sprint to the finish of September when the fiscal year ends, and it breaks into two different buckets. So, the White House priorities right now is to pass that short-term spending bill. That's what they are urging Congress to do so that there can be continuity of government and that they can also boost funding for some assistance programs.

Then also is that supplemental request, it's separate, and in that case, they want additional FEMA funding for communities that have been ravaged by weather-related disasters. And then also, additional Ukraine funding.

Now, earlier in the day, we heard from House Speaker Kevin McCarthy that those FEMA funds will be replenished. This has been a key point, especially this month as those funds run dry and as we continue to see disasters across the country.

But where it gets tricky is where the Ukraine funding and FEMA funding are bound, and there has been pushback in both of those being part of the same supplemental request.

Now, earlier today, Biden's top economic adviser said there's bipartisan support for both the disaster relief funds as well as for Ukraine funding.

But there is also disagreement when it comes to the Republican conference itself. With that spending bill, GOP hardliners have already outlined some of what they want to see to pass that bill. That includes an impeachment inquiry into President Biden, action on border security, and cutting spending to pre-COVID levels.

[17:40:01]

So, all of this is really coming to a head. It will be a headache for House Speaker Kevin McCarthy. But we should also note it could have ramifications for the economy and there, President Biden has labeled the economy Bidenomics, so key for him, too.

ACOSTA: Absolutely. All right, Priscilla Alvarez, thanks so much. Joining us now to talk about this, Democratic Congressman Jake Auchincloss of Massachusetts. Congressman, thanks so much for joining us. We appreciate it, especially on this Labor Day weekend. What do you make of these Republican threats to shut down the government? What can be done about this? Do you think it's going to happen?

REP. JAKE AUCHINCLOSS (D-MA): What a difference a year makes. Democrats closed last summer investing in domestic manufacturing, empowering Medicare, negotiate drug prices, passing the biggest, boldest climate change in clean energy legislation in history. Fast forward one year, Republicans are threatening to shut down the government, really just to protect Donald Trump from accountability. It's shameful.

And what Kevin McCarthy is going to need to do is (INAUDIBLE) the most extreme hardliners in his conference. There are 25, 35, 45 members of that conference who are just not serious about governing. They're nihilistic. And insofar, as you let the tail wag the dog, the government is going to shut down.

Now, if you want to step up and we a true leader of the chamber and put together a bipartisan consensus like we did to raise the debt limit, then I think we can govern.

ACOSTA: Might we see a situation emerge. It's a familiar one that we've seen before where things just essentially go to the brink. They go to the last second and McCarthy, after trying to, I guess, placate that far-right fringe of the Republican Party, will have to try to corral enough moderates to work with Democrats to push something through. Is that kind of a scenario that might emerge or do we just not know at this point?

AUCHINCLOSS: Might, but I hope not. It's not good for the American economy, which has been on a rip-roaring (ph) recovery for the last three years. It's not good for Ukraine because we need to pass supplemental aid for them as they fight on the front lines of the free world and as their counteroffensive gain steam.

And it's not good for just Americans' confidence in our political system. Americans deserve a competent federal government that can pass a yearly budget and can take care of basic services. That is a commitment that President Biden shook hands on with Speaker McCarthy, and now Speaker McCarthy is running away from that deal.

ACOSTA: On the other side of Capitol Hill, there have been questions about the health of the Senate minority leader, Mitch McConnell, other longtime members of Congress. And as you probably know, you probably heard -- maybe heard this from some of your constituents, has a lot of Americans wondering how many years politicians should be able to serve up on Capitol Hill.

University of Maryland poll recently showed that an overwhelming majority of Americans are in favor of establishing a term limit or term limits for members of Congress. I don't have to inform our viewers, you're one of the younger members of the House of Representatives, is that something that you would support?

AUCHINCLOSS: I agree that there are politicians who are hanging on too long. It's one of the reasons I admire the example that Speaker Pelosi set last term when she really gracefully and on her own terms stepped aside, let the next generation step up. The matter of Mitch McConnell is really for the GOP conference to decide.

But what I will say is that the best term limits are competitive elections. That's why the Alaska model that has an open primary with rank choice voting and the general is really a good template for a lot of other states, my own included, to consider adopting to ensure that voters have a real choice every two or six years.

ACOSTA: And just finally, I'm sure you saw this as well, New "Wall Street Journal" poll, I wanted to talk to you about 2024 a little bit. President Biden and former President Donald Trump are dead even in this hypothetical 2024 race. Do you see that as a warning sign for Democrats?

Is this something that Democrats need to be wary of, that Trump is pretty far out in front in terms of capturing the Republican nomination, and he does poll almost evenly with the president? Should Democrats be paying more attention to this and be more concerned than perhaps they are right now about this?

AUCHINCLOSS: This is going to be a close election, probably to come down to four states and 200,000 voters. That's the lesson of 2020 and 2016, and I think Democrats up and down the ballot are taking that very seriously.

The good news here is that President Joe Biden has a strong story to tell that we really haven't started communicating yet as a party. A story of a strong economic recovery, one in which the president took on special interests to make this a more fair economy, try to build wealth from the bottom up and the middle out. It's a story of fighting for democracy, both in Ukraine and here at home. And it's a story of standing for a woman's right to choose and for taking on the gun lobby to make our communities more safe.

I think Donald Trump, even without the incredible baggage of the four indictments he's facing, not 90 indictments, four trials that he's facing, is not going to be able to have a stronger story than what Joe Biden can put out there.

[17:45:07]

ACOSTA: All right. Congressman Jake Auchincloss of Massachusetts, thank you very much for your time. I really appreciate it on this Labor Day weekend. Thanks so much.

AUCHINCLOSS: Good to be with you.

ACOSTA: All right. Coming up next, live from Key West. You are looking at live pictures right now of a tribute to Jimmy Buffett. His life in music was so influenced by the Parrothead lifestyle. You know, there's going to be a party this weekend after the passing of this music icon. We will talk about this in just a few months, so stay with us. We're live in "CNN Newsroom."

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[17:50:10]

ACOSTA: It's 5:00 in Key West and the Florida island Jimmy Buffett returned to over and over again is honoring the late singer songwriter who died Friday night after a four-year battle with skin cancer. These are live pictures, almost live pictures we are looking at right now. Buffett discovered Key West in the early 1970s.

Portrayal of the island's lifestyle and song make Key West a mecca for his Parrothead fans named for the offbeat tropical parrot caps. And often, there were other headgear at the concerts. Of course, that were very much a part of the Jimmy Buffett legend.

Let's bring in Livingston Taylor. He's a singer, songwriter, one-time voice professor, brother to James Taylor, and was a close friend to Jimmy Buffett. Livingston, great to see you. Thank you so much.

And of course, we're showing these pictures. We can't help but show these pictures in Key West at the same time. So, if you hear a little music, that's what's going on. Of course, there had to be a party in Key West after the passing of Jimmy Buffett. But your thoughts today on the loss of your friend and of this icon, this legend that we all love.

LIVINGSTON TAYLOR, SINGER, CLOSE FRIEND OF JIMMY BUFFETT: Well, first, Jim, thanks for having me on. I'm in Tokyo right now. And it's quite early in the morning. And I was watching CNN, actually, here in Tokyo when your control room gave me a call. But I did want to say about Jimmy, there's party going on, but the Jimmy Buffett that I also knew was a stunningly thoughtful guy. He had an ability to observe and absorb his surroundings. And Jim, he -- there was something that he could do that was very unique to Jimmy Buffett. He had the ability, unlike many other celebrities, he had the ability to simply cloak, sort of like Harry Potter.

He just disappeared. So, he could stand right there and all of a sudden, you couldn't see him. And it allowed him to wander and to observe and to see and take in the environment that he was in. And then all of a sudden, he would uncloak, Jimmy Buffett, and completely prepared to respond to the environment that he had been absorbing.

ACOSTA: Amazing.

TAYLOR: Truly a remarkable human.

ACOSTA: It's amazing. I had a chance to meet him one time in Havana, Cuba and was just so amazed by how approachable he was. There weren't any PR people or, you know, guy entourage, guys pushing his bag. He was willing to talk to anybody. Just a totally friendly guy.

And I guess Livingston, you know, let's talk about Jimmy Buffett's music because, you know, I had to pull out one of my mom's old albums yesterday morning and start listening to it. I mean, it's just -- the music is -- I mean, it's just -- you know, if I just sit back in my chair and crack open a beer, I mean, what better music to play than Jimmy Buffett's music? Let's talk about it. What made his music so special?

TAYLOR: Well, what -- again, the core of Jimmy Buffett was his ferocious curiosity and his ability to observe the detail. You know, in sort of the cliche and noise of Margaritaville. When you get into that lyric, blew off my flip-flop, stepped on a pop-top, cut my heel, had to cruise on back home. Every detail, every syllable is giving you information and not wasting your time.

So, although it has that party feel, there's that thread of pace Pathos and contrition. And he says, and I know it's my own damn fault. At the end of that song, you go, I love this guy. He owns this.

ACOSTA: There was --

TAYLOR: What a beautiful (INAUDIBLE).

ACOSTA: Yeah, it was so self-deprecating and so simple. And somehow, the lyrics were just infectious without really trying to be that way. And we should note to our viewers, we're still looking at these live pictures right now of this incredible procession through the streets of Key West as people remember Jimmy Buffett.

Why is -- what is it about him -- what is it about Jimmy Buffett that appeals to so many people around the world? I mean, you could go into a karaoke bar in Tokyo where you are right now or really anywhere and hear Margaritaville. And there were so many other songs. I mean, we shouldn't just say it was Margarita. So many other songs. Why -- what was -- why did so many people love them?

[17:55:00]

TAYLOR: Well, again, first off, he saw them so clearly that he told their story.

ACOSTA: Yeah.

TAYLOR: But also, if you -- I'm sorry to get professorial on you for a second here, Jim.

ACOSTA: That's okay.

TAYLOR: But, you know, you got fins to the left, fins to the right, and you're the only bait in town. Do, do, do! He would write melodies that made crummy singers sound good. By the way --

(LAUGHTER)

-- crummy -- sometimes, intoxicated singers sound good. And we love it when we sing well. And we could go and be with Jimmy Buffett and he reminded us that we were enough.

ACOSTA: Yeah.

TAYLOR: That we were enough. And it was just a beautiful thing to do for people. And people craved being seen, being heard. And Jimmy saw them and heard them.

ACOSTA: Livingston Taylor, that is just wonderful stuff.

TAYLOR: Hey, by the way -- hey, do I have --

ACOSTA: Go ahead.

TAYLOR: -- do I have -- do I have 15 seconds --

ACOSTA: Please.

TAYLOR: -- to play a little bit of Mac McAnally's song that Jimmy and I used to sing all the time together, Jim?

ACOSTA: Play us out.

TAYLOR: It says --

(MUSIC PLAYING)

ACOSTA: Beautiful stuff, Livingston. Thank you so much. Really appreciate that. What a tribute. We'll be right back.

TAYLOR: Oh, Jim, so great to be on with you and so -- and thank you so much for allowing me to sing the praises of Jimmy Buffett.

ACOSTA: Yes, indeed. Thank you. Fitting tribute. Really is. RIP, Jimmy. TAYLOR: Okay.

ACOSTA: Good night. Thanks. Appreciate it. We'll be right back.

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