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Federal Government Starts Preparing for Potential Shutdown; Senator Bob Menendez Indicted, Rejects Call to Resign; Cassidy Hutchinson On Being Forced Into Hiding; Clarence Thomas Attended Koch Network Donor Events. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired September 23, 2023 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:00:15]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN ANCHOR: You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington. Good evening.

Millions of federal workers and military personnel have a long and stressful week ahead. They'll be relying on Congress to pass a spending bill and avoid a government shutdown by a midnight deadline next Saturday. That's right. It's just next. If Congress fails, those workers' paychecks will be delayed possibly for weeks.

Federal agencies have begun the process of preparing for a shutdown and it looks more and more likely at this hour.

Today, House Speaker Kevin McCarthy conceded he has to win over a handful of GOP hardliners. But he's hopeful they'll eventually vote for a stopgap spending measure to prevent a shutdown.

Meanwhile, here on Capitol Hill, New Jersey Senator Bob Menendez is pushing back against calls to resign even from his fellow Democrats and those Democrats are growing in number by the hour.

Federal prosecutors say Menendez and his wife took hundreds of thousands of dollars in bribes including gold bars, cash, home mortgage payments, and a luxury vehicle.

Also this week, a growing crisis at the Mexican border. Federal officials are sending more resources to help with the surge of migrants crossing into the U.S.

Let's bring in our panel of political experts to talk about this. Some faces you're going to recognize here. Joining us now, former Fox News host Geraldo Rivera in the flesh, as well as former senator -- excuse me -- senior adviser for Bernie Sanders' 2020 presidential campaign chuck Rocha, and Republican strategist and former RNC communications director Doug Heye.

Geraldo, it's great to have you on the show. Great to talk to you. It's 5:00 here in Washington. We'll have to call this the four as there are only four of us, if you'll pardon that little news pun.

But let's start with you, Geraldo. I know you're used to --

GERALDO RIVERA, FORMER FOX NEWS HOST: Four by four. That's good.

ACOSTA: -- being on at 5:00.

Yes. How bad is this going to get for Speaker McCarthy if he can't cut a deal to avoid a shutdown? What do you think?

RIVERA: I think he's between a rock and a hard place. He can't, you know, placate the hard, hard right, the Freedom Caucus members, and some of the others no matter what he does.

They don't want the government to go on, it seems to me. They want it shut down. I think that what he should do is appeal to the American people to appeal to those congress folk and tell them that the federal government does more than deliver mail and audit your taxes. It makes the world go round in a lot of ways. And a lot of people are going to suffer grievously.

He's got to make a deal with the Democrats, otherwise this shutdown will be disastrous.

ACOSTA: Yes.

Doug, is that where this is heading? That he's going to have to make some kind of deal with the Democrats? Or do you think we will see some of these Freedom Caucus members cave when it gets down to crunch time?

DOUG HEYE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Unfortunately, there's going to be a shutdown. It seems almost impossible to avoid that. And it's interesting because the politics are somewhat similar and also different than what we saw in 2013 during the shutdown.

The Freedom Caucus in this case is divided. We've seen some peel away and be more supportive of Kevin. We've seen -- and basically keeping the government open and functioning. And we've seen some who are still drawing that hard line.

And the reality is, what people are hearing back in their congressional districts, whether they're working with leadership or they're standing against Republican leadership here -- it's only Republicans who sort of matter in this context -- is their constituents are telling them, keep doing what you're doing. Whether it's working to keep the government open but don't work with Democrats because that's somehow bad. Or fight your own Republican leadership. That's exactly what they're hearing.

ACOSTA: And Chuck, I mean border patrol is one of the issues that might get affected by this government shutdown. I mean, how do you maintain a border if the government is shut down? This is what President Biden had to say about the surge happening down at the southern border right now.

Let's listen to that and talk about it on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Unfortunately, the MAGA Republicans in Congress under my predecessor spent four years gutting the immigration system under my predecessor. They continue to undermine our border situation today blocking bipartisan reform.

So until Congress acts, I'm going to keep using every tool at my disposal as President of the United States to preserve and protect DACA, keep fighting for dreamers, and build a safe (INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: So the president' obviously fired up about this. I think you were at that event.

CHUCK ROCHA, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO BERNIE SANDERS: I was at that event. That's the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute. It was a whirlpool of Latino leaders from across the nation.

There's real political implications with a shutdown. I think we've all been through it. We've all been in this town a long time -- Democrat, Republican, or Independent, I'm not a guy who does public policy in the lobby, I run campaigns. Jim, you know that.

[17:04:48]

ROCHA: And what you see in the states is real consequences if folks stop getting checks. If we shut down our national parks and fishing guides can't get into the everglades and folks that make a living off this, then you'll start seeing -- it's like gas prices. You see it every single day when you stop getting those resources.

ACOSTA: Geraldo, you've been weighing in on this issue. I mean what more can the president do at this point? And does he have a point that bipartisan immigration reform is the key?

RIVERA: Well, it certainly is the key, Jim. But he has to take some responsibility and stop this phony blaming everything on Trump. It's just not so.

When you weld open the doors to the border wall because you want to show the Latin world that you are open-minded or welcoming, what you do is you welcome -- everybody wants to live in America.

Whether you live in Colombia or Venezuela or Mexico or you know, Azerbaijan or France -- you want to live in America. You have to have some control.

Now, I am all for a liberal, comprehensive immigration reform. But you have to admit, when you see -- if it weren't for the drones, we wouldn't know. Now we see with these drone cameras, we get an idea of the scope of this misery.

When I was growing up, it was always the Darien Gap was stopping, you know, an unbridled flow, a tidal wave from South America. The Darien Gap now, they have tour guides, they give out knapsacks, sneakers, they give a package deal. We'll get you across Central America, get you into Mexico, you get on the train, then you cross the Rio Grande, and presto, you're there.

There's got to be some kind of order. There's got to be Mexico, Central America, Colombia have to work together to help re-establish order on the border. You have people dying in the desert and so forth.

We, our country, has prospered enormously from Latino and other immigrants, but right now it is anarchy and chaos and Biden has to do something.

ACOSTA: Geraldo, isn't there a problem for Republicans in Congress if they're shutting down the border and at the same time -- if they're shutting down the government, excuse me, and at the same time the border resources are going to be affected by a government shutdown? Isn't that a problem?

RIVERA: Absolutely. It's ridiculous. It's absurd. You shut down the government, who's going to police fentanyl? We're losing a planeload of people every day to fentanyl. That's how many are dying. A couple hundred every single day overdosing.

Come on. Let's be grownups here. That's why I think this is the moment Speaker McCarthy has to decide whether or not he's a great man or he's a politician.

If he's a great man, he's going to say, ok, you hardliners, you're not with me, then I'm going to go to the Democrats because I'm putting my country before my party.

Let's see is he a profile in courage or is he just another political hack?

ACOSTA: Let's talk about what's happening with Democrat Senator from New Jersey Bob Menendez. He is defending himself against these charges that he took bribes as part of his duties up on Capitol Hill. He's been essentially saying that he's being persecuted because he's a Latino in Congress.

Doug, I mean what do you think at this point? What do you think Bob Menendez is up against right now because he is facing increasing calls to step down. John Fetterman, Democrat from Pennsylvania earlier today calling on Menendez --

HEYE: We've been seeing a lot of his colleagues -- yes. A lot of New Jersey Democrats. So far, silence from Cory Booker who the last time Bob Menendez went through this -- this is not his first rodeo for this -- Cory Booker was loyal and supported him. He's been quiet so far.

If Cory Booker speaks out and calls for Menendez to step down, it's hard to see how it's tenable.

But we look at what's going on with George Santos, and I think in a similar light, the reality is as long as you're there, being there is part of your political leverage. It's part of your leverage in a legal sense as well. When you're negotiating potential pleas and things like that with DOJ. You stay in office because you have that one piece of leverage. ACOSTA: Yes, Chuck.

ROCHA: The problem right now is that he has an election. The last time this happened, he was 3 1/2 years before his election. Now he has an election in less than a year. And you have a whole bunch of congressmen in New Jersey who would love to be senator, that's the bottom line here.

I've been on the phone all morning with folks in New Jersey. A lot of them in that Latino community are really sad. They have been with Bob Menendez. He's been a leader in our community. He did amazing things for the community.

But now folks there are lining up and you have a lot of congressmen who would love to be senator.

ACOSTA: What do you think? I mean you've been involved in campaign politics for some time. Does Menendez need to step down.

ROCHA: Look, it comes down to the Senate. Right now, we have no wiggle room. We've talked about this on this program.

ACOSTA: So he's not going to step down?

ROCHA: I think --

(CROSSTALK)

ACOSTA: The numbers are where they are.

ROCHA: I think -- I was out there a while ago just looking. Every minute, there's somebody else who's coming out. Now it's the California senate candidate. So I think the pressure's going to get immense on him.

[17:09:50]

ACOSTA: All right. Guys, sit tight. We've got a lot still ahead including Geraldo's old boss, Rupert Murdoch, we can't let you go without talking about that, Geraldo. That's coming up after the break. We'll discuss Murdoch's role in conservative political discourse. And of course, Geraldo was there, he had a front row seat to a lot of it.

We'll talk about it in just few moments.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

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ACOSTA: Facing mounting political pressure, President Biden says he'll join auto workers in their strike against the Big Three. The president posted that he will travel to Michigan on Tuesday. It's believed Biden will be the first sitting president to ever visit a picket line during a strike. We're back with our panel.

The Four, we're calling it unless Chuck's watch chimes in. (CROSSTALK)

ACOSTA: My watch does the same thing.

Geraldo, I want to ask you about this. The president maybe -- you know, we've been playing a lot of these polls lately, I'm sure you've been watching this, that show Biden and Trump in a neck-and-neck battle for the presidency. But the State polls get overlooked.

And this latest CNN poll shows the president way out in front of Trump in New Hampshire, which is typically a battleground state. Maybe it's been trending a little bluer in recent elections.

[17:14:53]

ACOSTA: But it's a reminder we have an electoral college in this country and the president may be doing a little bit better in some of these battleground states. Geraldo, what do you think?

RIVERA: Well, the New Hampshire poll Jim, as you know and have been reporting all day, was really the first good news that President Biden has gotten poll-wise in quite a while.

The last poll last week that I saw was Trump-Biden 50/50. But to see him moving decisively ahead in New Hampshire, gives hope to the thesis that he is the guy to beat Trump. Maybe Trump is the only guy he could beat. But he is the one guy that could beat Trump.

And if that is the -- if that working philosophy works, then you'll have these two old-timers getting out there and slugging it out and maybe Biden prevails in the second term.

It's close. Too close for comfort for Democrats for sure. Trump is surprising everybody with his resilience in terms of his popularity. But a Trump-Biden rematch, excuse me for yawning, but the stakes could not be higher.

ACOSTA: You're not ok with old guys slugging it out, Geraldo?

RIVERA: I'm an old guy that slugs it out, you know, all the time. That's my life. That's my M.O.

ACOSTA: Right. You wouldn't be where you are today if you weren't slugging it out.

(CROSSTALK)

GERALDO: I'm 80. He's only -- Biden is only eight months older than I am. So I know how I feel. And I know that I wouldn't like to be, you know, going hither and thon. But I wish him the best, I do. I want him to succeed.

I think that Trump disqualified himself from being president by challenging the Constitution of the United States. Mike Pence was absolutely right that he put the -- his own political fortunes ahead of the country. And he does not deserve to be president again, Jim. ACOSTA: Chuck, I mean, what do you make of this New Hampshire poll? I

mean did you exhale? Did you breathe a little easier when you saw that?

ROCHA: Look, I've been telling Democrats for weeks as they see these national polls come out and it's one point here, one point there. And I've told them all to step away from the edge of the building and off the bridges, everything's going to be ok.

We have to work our tails off, but these state polls are what matter the most. You know, you've reported in Iowa and in other places -- the Nevada, the Arizona, the Georgia, the Pennsylvania, the Michigan polls and now the New Hampshire polls are what you really should pay attention to. And as we get closer, the more you should pay attention to another year out.

ACOSTA: Yes. It makes sense that the president is going to Michigan. I mean that's another battle ground state that matters.

But Doug, New Hampshire poll, should this give Trump supporters some pause here?

HEYE: Nothing gives Trump supporters pause.

ACOSTA: Well, I was going to say.

HEYE: They are fully locked in. But if you're a Republican who's running against Donald Trump, you have a debate next week. This is your opportunity to point out how you think Donald Trump can't win.

And we've heard this from DeSantis. We've heard it from Haley. They've got a real fresh opportunity with hard numbers behind them to do so.

ACOSTA: And Geraldo, there is a debate coming up on Fox, I'm sure you're aware of that. There was already one on Fox before. There's another one coming up. I believe it's on Fox Business.

But I have to ask you about Rupert Murdoch stepping down. I know you've been asked a bunch about this. You called him a titan. You've tweeted about this and said that that he's a titan. He gave voice to conservatives who were barely being served in the news media. And I know that was how Roger Ailes felt about a lot of this.

But your sense of it. You were just saying a few moments ago that Donald Trump disqualified himself from being president because of what he did around January 6th and so on.

But Fox bears some responsibility for that, don't they? And Rupert Murdoch shares some responsibility for that. They were peddling these lies and I know that was one of the reasons you had problems over there. Your thoughts on all of this?

RIVERA: Well, very briefly, my fortunes at Fox began spiraling downward when I began voicing the opinion on November 13th, 10 days after the election, that the president, President Trump, was going off on a tangent. And by the end of November, he was totally committed to crazy. So, you

know, I said so. I said then. And I've been saying for the last, what is it, almost three years now that, you know, when you do something as egregious as challenge the constitutional order, then you have no right to run for president again.

That doesn't mean I'm not sympathetic to him. It doesn't mean I didn't support him before.

In terms of Rupert Murdoch, he is a titan. You know, he made $17 billion and formed this worldwide media empire because he saw that half of America felt unserved or underserved by mainstream media. I mean that's a reality.

[17:19:50]

RIVERA: You know, most commentators are pro-choice, pro-abortion. Most believe climate change. Most believe that there should be gun control, immigration reform.

Conservatives don't believe any of that stuff. You know, they need media, and I think that his genius was recognizing tens of millions of people wanted to hear a different song.

ACOSTA: I know you don't want to take too many shots at a place where you used to work. I mean I understand that. But do you think Rupert Murdoch poisoned the discourse of this country? That Fox poisoned the discourse in this country to the extent that you could have a January 6th, to the extent that you still have legions of Trump supporters who don't believe in democracy, who don't believe in election results anymore?

Has it -- do you share those views? And I guess when you were there at Fox, how much did that concern you?

RIVERA: Right. I get it, I get it. Of course it concerned me. But you have a situation where I blame Trump. I don't blame Fox. Fox, with the Dominion settlement, $787 million that they had to pay out because of saying something that they didn't believe about the election -- that's a big I'm sorry. So I accept Fox's apology now.

ACOSTA: They didn't really apologize, did they?

RIVERA: You saw his deposition -- well, $787 million is a pretty big I'm sorry, in my opinion, you know. Sometimes money talks. And I think that was the case in this situation.

And I don't think -- again, I go back to, you know, the country is divided ideologically. You see what's happening in Congress with the senate, 51-49. The House, 217, whatever it is. It's basically tied. The government is tied.

And I think people do -- I live in Ohio now. I live in a red state. I see that people here feel differently than my friends in New York do about -- and California do about lots of different issues. And when they click around the dial, they want to hear someone who's

reporting or whose editorial choices, just the stories we choose to or the report on, not merely how we report on them, are different. I accept the difference.

The crazy is crazy. The crazy -- we can see crazy right, crazy left, crazy is crazy. Trump is crazy, he went crazy. And what is more deeply disturbing is --

ACOSTA: But Fox enabled him a little bit, right?

(CROSSTALK)

ACOSTA: Fox enabled him with Tucker and Hannity and all that --

RIVERA: I took their checks for 22 years, you're right. I took their money for 22 years, I'm not going to bite the hand that fed me.

But I go back to my point. There's plenty of people who want to hear people that they agree with.

I loved watching you. I thought that you were courageous and spunky and you dug your heels in and you were just as tough on Obama as you later became on Trump, even though Trump was more notorious and some of the confrontations more classic.

But there a lot of people who didn't like you because they thought that maybe you were going too far, you know, attacking the president, so forth.

Now, I liked you because I like spunk, I like courage. And I'm delighted having a weekend show myself for 10, 12 years, I was the Puerto Rican on the weekend, now you're the Cuban on the weekend.

So we're doing ok. You know, let's realize and accept that the country is divided and people see things differently.

ACOSTA: I appreciate that. All right. Well, Geraldo, it's great to have you on. I hope you don't mind me --

RIVERA: You too, thank you, Jim.

(CROSSTALK)

ACOSTA: -- getting a little pointed with some of those questions there. Thanks so much for your time.

RIVERA: Not at all.

ACOSTA: Always good to talk to you. As well. And Chuck and Doug --

RIVERA: That's our business, Buddy.

ACOSTA: That is what we do. Thanks for showing some spunk there. We have to be a little spunky from time to time.

All right, gentlemen. Thanks very much. Appreciate it.

We'll be right back.

RIVERA: Absolutely.

[17:24:12]

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ACOSTA: While Donald Trump continues his dominating lead for the Republican presidential nomination, former aides are warning of what a second Trump presidency could mean.

Here's how life changed for former White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson after she had the courage to tell the truth to the congressional committee investigating January 6th.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE AIDE: In the days after my testimony, there's the immediate security protocols and security concerns. So my life changed in the way that I was living my life for a while.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You couldn't go back to your apartment?

HUTCHINSON: I could not go back to my apartment. I ended up moving down to Atlanta for several months.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They didn't even think it was safe for you to stay in D.C.?

HUTCHINSON: No. No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And joining us now is Miles Taylor, former Trump Homeland Security Department official. Miles, good to talk to you as always.

We know you wrote that book, that anonymous book warning people about what was going to take place inside the Trump administration, about Donald Trump in general, what he's all about.

Let me ask you about Cassidy Hutchinson and what she is talking about in this Sunday morning interview promoting her new book. Does that experience sound familiar to you, having to hide out in a different city and worried about going home to one's apartment and so on?

MILES TAYLOR, FORMER TRUMP DHS OFFICIAL: All too familiar, Jim. And what's really alarming is that these are not discreet {ph) episodes anymore. This is happening en masse to people like Cassidy Hutchinson, to mayors who turn against Trump, to poll workers.

[17:29:55]

TAYLOR: The political intimidation and violence are genuinely off the charts. I mean, when I wrote that book, "A Warning", it's one of the things I warned about is that this was going to veer towards greater violence. It was going to go past the vitriol. And it has and it happened to me as well.

I mean, I spent Election Day 2020 in a safe house in Northern Virginia, under armed guard and with a pistol under my pillow, because the threats are very, very real. You know, we still contend with the threats. And I'm very sad to see that happening to Cassidy Hutchinson. But I'm also really proud of her. Proud of her that she's gone out there and spoken about this, again, risking her security, to talk about those episodes to point out how serious this has become.

This is not the United States we were living in 10 years ago. This is a very, very different place right now. We're speaking your mind about politics actually can put your life in danger and can put your family in danger.

ACOSTA: And Miles, the fact that she's speaking out again and has this book with all these revelations that is that has Trump World coming after her again, Peter Navarro, the former Trump aide convicted of contempt of Congress charges attacks Cassidy Hutchinson on X notice Twitter along with other women who have turned on Trump's since leaving the White House you can see on screen right there our, viewers can see on screen he says why would White House men prez VP senior aide ever hire a woman after watching book pimps Cassidy Hutchinson, Alyssa Farah, Stephanie Grisham, Kayleigh McEnany, Olivia Troye, throw mud at Trump and Giuliani.

And he goes on pimp ladies be given real MAGA women bad name, which that isn't even English. I don't even know what that is there. But your reaction to his comments. I mean, they're pretty disgusting.

TAYLOR: I don't even think it warrants a reaction. He's a horrible misogynist. And but he already made that point himself and doesn't need me to make it. I think what people should be really alarmed by is this is a guy who in a second Trump term will be among the senior most advisors to the President of the United States, someone who speaks like him, parrots his talking points.

A Peter Navarro will be among Trump's closest aides, and has remained one of his biggest defenders. That is shocking. It's disgusting. It should be terrifying, that we would potentially put someone like Peter in that position again.

Another thing I want to point out, Jim, all those names of the women he attacked, I want to tell you something about them. I know every single one of those women individually. And they're all very different people, who had very different politics and came into the Trump administration from very, very different careers. And you know what, they all ended up in the same place. They were exposed to the man in person. They were horrified by what they saw. And they've spoken out some may wish they had done it sooner. But the point is, they've spoken out, they've put themselves in danger to do it.

I think it goes to show you that anyone who actually has a conscience and interacts with that man sees the danger he poses. And Peter Navarro, again, is just showing us that he's not one of those people. He's not one of those people with a conscience.

ACOSTA: No, those are just deeply misogynistic, just horrendous comments. And I want to switch topics to Ukraine this week. The Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy was in Washington. And as you know, Republicans are increasingly reluctant to fund support for the war in Ukraine. They're adamantly opposed to in some corners of the GOP.

What do you think? What do we risk if we turn our backs in Ukraine and your most recent book, titled Blowback, which warns about what would happen to our democracy in the United States under Trump. I mean, what do you think about the war in Ukraine and what it says about the fight for democracy not only here in the US, but around the world?

TAYLOR: Yes, I think we are in an extraordinarily perilous moment, as in the Western world, the freedom loving world. And it's not because it's just under threat overseas. It's because here at home, we have individuals who are many Trump's who've been elected to Congress who are holding Ukraine funding hostage, who are trying to pull America back from the world.

I mean, I look at this, Jim, and I've got to just be honest with you, I've known you for a long time and, and I think you know how frustrated I am by watching all of this. I think I speak for a lot of Americans when I say -- when I asked the question, what the hell are we doing?

I mean, we as a country, almost 50 percent of us are considering reelecting a man who leads this movement of many Trump's to that office after he attempted to overturn the will of the people after he attempted to abrogate the Constitution. And as he's pursuing reelection to a job that he says he wants to jail his successor and use to exact retribution against his opponents his words, Jim not my words.

[17:35:00]

This has got to be one of the most observably stupid moments in American history. And if we repeat the same mistake we made eight years ago, it'll be the last time because there won't be any more opportunities to repeat mistakes, because it could very well be the end of the Republic.

And I say that having been inside the belly of that beast, and what people don't realize is that beast is much deadlier to democracy than it even was in the first term. So I guess my point is that if we make this mistake again, Jim, we probably deserve everything that's coming to us.

ACOSTA: Yes. I mean, there's no question about democracy is on the line only here in the U.S., but in places like Ukraine. Miles Taylor, great to talk to you, as always. Thanks so much. Really appreciate it.

TAYLOR: Thanks, Jim.

ACOSTA: All right. And still ahead. A new report on Justice Clarence Thomas Supreme Court and his ties to GOP donors renewing calls for Supreme Court ethics rules. One of the reporters who broke that latest story joins us next and we are monitoring a tropical storm disrupting life right now from North Carolina right up the eastern seaboard in New York. It's a very wet weekend for a lot of us while the latest throughout the broadcast. Stay with us. We live in the CNN Newsroom. Be right back.

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[17:40:18]

ACOSTA: Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas has already been accused of skirting ethics standards by accepting lavish gifts and failing to disclose them. Now, ProPublica is reporting to justice attended a private dinner in 2018 at a donor summit for the Koch brothers political organization, according to staffers who spoke with ProPublica, the private speech from Justice Thomas was meant to encourage donors to continue giving to the group.

And joining us now is one of the reporters who broke that story. Joshua Kaplan. Josh has the justice or his office responded to all of this? Kudos to you and your team for continuing to report on this. What is Justice Thomas sang about any of this?

JOSHUA KAPLAN, PROPUBLICA REPORTER: We sent him detailed questions about everything we found and he didn't respond.

ACOSTA: And what about the Koch network? What are they saying about this?

KAPLAN: So yes, they've now confirmed the facts of the story. And they are saying that, I mean, they've said a few things. So they didn't answer most of our questions about the all the specifics of his role. And there are things that remain unknown. But they said that he was not personally present when fundraising conversations were happening.

One of the things we reported is that Thomas flew out to this donor summit on a private jet that he didn't disclose. They said they didn't pay for the jet. So it's actually still unclear who did pay, because he didn't disclose it. And then they said that, you know, all the justices do things like give speeches, and go on book tours, and that going to these donor events isn't any different.

ACOSTA: And Josh, help us put this in the context of the other stories that you've done on Justice Thomas, the significance of a Supreme Court justice to attending a Koch network event. But also this is one of a number of instances that have, I mean, raised alarm bells about what is going on inside the Supreme Court. I think a lot of Americans just didn't have any idea that justices could go out and go to these sorts of events and hang out with high rollers at private retreats and that sort of thing.

KAPLAN: Yes. So I mean, what we found puts Thomas in a really pretty extraordinary position of having been a prestigious fundraising draw for a network that has brought multiple cases to the Supreme Court, including one of the biggest cases of the upcoming term. But leaving cases aside, judges sit in a unique position of public

trust. I mean, they're -- they have lifetime appointments to insulate them from the pressures and influences of politics as usual. And the judiciary has really lofty ethics rules meant to preserve judges. In part, impartiality, and independence, political activity is banned. So is participation fundraising for instance.

We talked to a federal judge appointed by George Bush, who found this shocking that Thomas had done this and said, if he'd done the same when he was a district court judge, he'd have gotten a letter of starting a formal disciplinary process.

But you know, this all I think gets to the root issue, or one of the root issues in this story. And in all the stories we've reported, which is that these ethics rules only apply to the lower courts.

At the Supreme Court, the justices have little or no binding rules on their conduct, and essentially little -- essentially zero oversight, and they ultimately decide what's appropriate for themselves.

ACOSTA: Fascinating. Joshua Kaplan with ProPublica. Thanks again to you and your news organization for the stellar work that you're doing in trying to hold some of these justices accountable and revealing something that not a lot of folks really understood what's going on. So Josh, thank you very much for your time. We appreciate it.

KAPLAN: No, thank you so much.

ACOSTA: Thank you. All right. In the meantime, there is no disputing this fact President John F. Kennedy and Hassan John F. Kennedy Jr. are dead, yet a fringe group exists that believes they're still alive if that sounds crazy. There's more CNNs Donie O'Sullivan looked into the group and the toll of their conspiracy theories. What we found is next. You're live in CNN Newsroom.

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[17:49:13]

ACOSTA: For the past year, CNN's Donie O'Sullivan has been investigating a group some call a colt that believes President Kennedy and his son John F. Kennedy Jr. are still alive and in hiding. Tomorrow on the whole story with Anderson Cooper. CNN's Donie O'Sullivan takes us on a journey across the country to meet the believers and confront their QAnon conspiracist leader. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL PROTZMAN, CONSPIRACY THEORIST: The Assassination date right over here. Go added up 11/22 1963, 11 plus 22 plus 19 plus 63, 115. We're at war 115.

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So what is the significance of 115?

PROTZMAN: You'll find out what to study for what is for. O'SULLIVAN: What's mine number?

PROTZMAN: Because the plan entered for.

O'SULLIVAN: What's my number?

PROTZMAN: My number?

O'SULLIVAN: Yes.

PROTZMAN: It is 174. But it's also 218 but I got to go.

[17:50:04]

O'SULLIVAN: Why is it that people like you so much? Are you a con man?

PROTZMAN: No.

O'SULLIVAN: Are you? Are you taking these women for right? Literally?

PROTZMAN: No one can they're taking me for.

O'SULLIVAN: You are bankrupt, right?

PROTZMAN: I make them and I'm not bankrupt and they know --

O'SULLIVAN: How you make it out? So how do you make a bass?

DIANE BENSCOTER, AUTHOR: Well, I saw a few things in there. One was what I call thought terminating cliches. He just kept saying, you'll find out, you'll find out, you'll find out. And that's the kind of thing that there's no real answer to. There's no explanation needed. You can just repeat these things. And there's no way to kind of prove or disprove you'll find out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And Donie joins us now. Donie, chilling stuff. Where did this encounter with this ban happen?

O'SULLIVAN: Hi, Jim. The man you see in that video there is named Michael Protzman, that was in Dallas, not too far from the grassy knoll and Daley Plaza, of course, where John F. Kennedy, President Kennedy was assassinated 60, almost 60 years ago.

And look, what happened here really was an you know, we could really get tied up into the irrationality of these beliefs and try to understand them. But you know, in some ways that it is a distraction, trying to unpack how the Kennedys have anything to do with Trump and everything else. You know, that's the conspiracy theory. That's the irrational part.

What we're trying to do with this story is really show the human effect the effects on families and on American people, these conspiracy theories. And the reason we met him in Dallas actually was because repeatedly over the course of a number of years, he was bringing people back to Dallas, telling people that, you know, one of the Kennedys might show up, of course, surprise, surprise, they never didn't.

But look, a lot of people ended up not only going to Dallas, but staying in Dallas and kind of living with Michael Protzman.

ACOSTA: Yes. And Donie, what was he talking about when he was mentioning all these different numbers? What was that all about?

O'SULLIVAN: Yes, so that is something called Gematria. It's basically a numerical alphabet thing, A equals one, Z equals 26. Pretty simple about was that man there, Michael Protzman did was kind of use these codes use Gematria to try and establish all these links between everybody and essentially trying to, you know, extend these QAnon type conspiracy theories.

So saying, you know, this name equals this number, this other name equals at the same amount, saying there's a connection, trying to just paint this very broad picture of a kind of Cabal, and all these evil things going on. Now, of course, and Diane Benscoter is the cults expert there who you saw at the end of that clip.

She said, of course, so many of us, I mean, this sort of stuff just sounds crazy, right? I mean, it sounds pretty stupid, frankly.

ACOSTA: Yes.

O'SULLIVAN: But really, the followers that we were speaking to, you know, they've got sucked in by this thing. And I hopefully people will tune in tomorrow night, because what we do want to show is that a lot of people that got swept up in this movement, this group, what some people would call a cult. You know, they were normal functioning members of society before all of this, but something clicked. And there they were.

ACOSTA: Wow, strange and scary stuff. Donie O'Sullivan. Thank you very much for the reporting you've been doing on this. Make sure to watch the whole new episode of the whole story with Anderson Cooper with Donie's reporting there It airs tomorrow at 8:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific only on CNN. Our thanks to Donie for that.

In the meantime, this week, CNN Hero watched as her teenage son Nik lost his battle to cancer and the night before he passed away. Nik asked his mother to make sure older kids can still get their wish just like the Make-A-Wish Foundation does for younger kids. So this mom has dedicated her life to granting once in a lifetime experiences to young adult cancer fighters ages 18 to 24 meet Kelli Ritschel Boehle.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLI RITSCHEL BOEHLE, CNN HERO: Lamp is in place. We already. Guess what, Abby, come on out here if you can. Congratulations.

When I get to see somebody saying my wish was granted.

You are going to go to Hawaii. Sometimes there's tears, sometimes there's joy, there's Hoots and Hollers.

Did we surprise you really?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It really did.

RITSCHEL BOEHLE: But for me, it's Nik smiling down and saying thank you, mom. Thank you, mom.

[17:55:00]

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My health has been getting worse so this is just everything to me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: That is so great art. To learn more about Kelli's work and watch as one young woman gets her wish to go to a Taylor Swift concert, go to CNNheroes.com

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[18:00:03]

ACOSTA: You're live in the CNN Newsroom. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington. Good evening. We are following some breaking news at this hour.