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Interview With Representative Marc Molinaro (R-NY) About Possible Government Shutdown; Cassidy Hutchinson Defends Her January 6th Testimony; Asteroid Sample Lands In Utah Desert After 7-Year Trip; COVID Hospitalizations Rising Faster Among Children; "Jose Andres And Family In Spain" Premieres Tonight. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired September 24, 2023 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:18]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington. Good evening.

We begin this hour with chaos, but not very much in terms of compromise up on Capitol Hill. Time is running out for Congress to prevent a shutdown of the federal government. Lawmakers have only six days left to strike an agreement on a spending bill to pay for non- essential services. House Speaker Kevin McCarthy concedes he doesn't have the votes because members of his own party, GOP hardliners, are still defying him.

That could have many effects if it comes to pass. All federal workers and military personnel would temporarily stop getting their paychecks. Border enforcement would likely suffer and flights could be delayed.

Also this week, House Republicans hold their first hearing in the impeachment inquiry of President Biden, focusing on business dealings pertaining to his son Hunter Biden.

Let's discuss more now with Republican Congressman Marc Molinaro of New York. He's a member of the Main Street Caucus. That's a group of moderate Republicans working to negotiate a plan to avoid a shutdown.

Congressman, thanks very much for being with us on this Sunday evening. Really appreciate it. How likely is it that we're going to see a deal this week to avoid a shutdown?

REP. MARC MOLINARO (R-NY): Listen, I think we all -- I mean, truly within the House majority conference, recognize that a shutdown is not in the interest of America or Americans. But, you know, listen, there are deeply held beliefs that we're negotiating. I've been engaged, as you likely know, in great deal of very tense conversations, but I think we're moving the needle.

The goal here has been to try to move the package and appropriations bills that show that we respect taxpayers, that we can't continue to spend dollars we don't have, borrow away future generations, and at the same time confront our border security. We're making progress and that's what's important. ACOSTA: And you've reportedly said -- and let me know if I don't have

this exactly right, that you'd be willing to consider going around your party leaders, force a vote on a short-term funding bill to prevent a shutdown. Is that happening? Are there conversations happening right now to make that happen?

MOLINARO: Well, I'll confront the way you framed it. I will say at the end of the day we have a bipartisan government, Republicans in the House, Democrats in the Senate. We will need a bipartisan solution. And I've said, as have several others, I'll work with anyone who's earnest about trying to confront the challenges that face this country. But first and foremost, I think that we have the construct of at least a plan to get these appropriations bills to the floor, have a hearty debate about them, and hopefully make I think very clear to the American people that, you know, we have to shrink the size, scale and scope of the federal government.

And, Jim, I just would say this. Just when you and everyone else over the course of the last eight months have said that maybe the Republican House can't just do it. We've pulled it off. Energy policy to drive down energy costs, border security for the security of America, the national borders, and other efforts meant I think to really speak out on behalf of the American people.

ACOSTA: But let me just pin you down on that if you don't mind for just a moment. So you're saying at the moment, you would prefer not to work around party leadership in the Republican Party and work with Democrats, part of I guess what's sometimes called a discharge petition, to sort of force a vote on a short-term spending bill. You're saying that you're confident at this point that you could work this out among your Republican colleagues? Is that what I'm hearing you say?

MOLINARO: I believe that it is possible, and I believe that it is necessary. Listen, two years ago Democrats controlled the House. Massive federal spending that fueled inflation, driving up the cost of everything. And by the way, a president and a Democratic majority that has ignored the crisis at our border, both humanitarian crisis and tens upon thousands of individuals coming into this country. I'd like us to assert a very strong set of principles that drives down spending, secures the border and respects the American taxpayer and then negotiate from there.

But I've said this clearly, it doesn't serve anyone any good to shut down government. I think quite frankly having lived through it as a local elected official, living through government shutdowns in the past, you know, the president will be empowered to make choices that quite frankly aren't going to do very well for the people I represent, nor for the people who work for the American people. So my hope is that we can get closer to agreement. I've been engaged in those negotiations actively. And I'd like to put our best foot forward.

ACOSTA: And the speaker mentioned a few days ago that there are members of your conference who are willing to burn the place down. That's the way he described it. Is that your sense of it, too? MOLINARO: Well, listen, we inherited a House that's been on fire

respectfully. And my view is that these are deeply held beliefs from people all across the country, and just in those moments where we've all thought the House Republicans couldn't come together, we did.

[18:05:03]

Securing large increases in pay for servicemen and women, clawing back COVID spending when necessary, ensuring that military men and women no longer live under the vaccine mandate. So I just wouldn't necessarily give in just yet. These are hard conversations, but the American people demand that we work through those hard issues.

ACOSTA: Well -- but if that doesn't work out, if you can't do it, does your speaker survive this?

MOLINARO: Yes. Kevin McCarthy is giving us and empowering us to have these negotiations. Listen, I'd rather not talk about the hypothetical of us not getting it. Let's continue to work hard -- I believe, by the way, only eight months now in Congress. I can tell you just every day we decide we can't do something until we did it. And so I'd rather engage in that kind of earnest effort to get us over the finish line on behalf of the American people.

ACOSTA: Yes. Congressman, I mean, but there's a political question in all of this, too. In 2020 your district voted for Biden by almost five points. You run your race in 2022 with just over 50 percent of the vote. Are you concerned that you will lose your seat if there's a shutdown? And have you communicated to some of these Freedom Caucus members that they might be putting your seat in jeopardy if they force a shutdown?

MOLINARO: I don't think that a shutdown is inevitable, and I'm working every day to keep us from going there. I don't think it's in the best interest of anybody. But I've been working with those Freedom Caucus members. I can't say I would have had it on my bingo card that me and Dan Bishop would be working together. But the truth here is we've got to move the needle further. And the people who sent me to Congress, by the way, they absolutely believe that the president and the Democratic control over the last two years has driven up the cost in upstate New York. Everything from gas to groceries. They want us to take responsibility for federal spending, drive down costs and confront both public safety and national security.

ACOSTA: Yes. And you know that there are -- I'm sure many of your Democratic colleagues who will say, well, when Donald Trump was in the White House and lots of Republicans up on Capitol Hill who were in his party and in power up on Capitol Hill, they didn't drive down the cost of government, they didn't reduce the deficit. The deficit went up, the debt went up, and you missed your chance there. Don't you have to compromise? Don't you have to work across party lines and get this done?

MOLINARO: Of course. Of course we do. We have bipartisan government by design or default. But I think it's in the best interest of America that the House comes forward with as conservative a plan as we can respecting taxpayers and then negotiate from there. Just as we did with the largest reduction in American debt in history. Just as we did to avert a debt crisis. I think it's in our best interest to make that argument and then negotiate from there.

But, Jim, obviously, I wasn't in Congress when President Trump was there. I wasn't in Congress these last two years when trillions of dollars in spending forced up the cost of goods and services in this country. Right now we have the opportunity to set things straight. We ought not give up.

ACOSTA: And the House Oversight Committee will hold its first public hearing on the impeachment inquiry of President Biden. You have said that you support that inquiry. Are you worried about the political risks? As you know, impeachments can backfire politically. It's happened before. It's happened to Republicans before.

MOLINARO: Yes. I didn't come to Congress to impeach anybody, but I also wouldn't turn my back on corruption. You know, having grown up in New York state politics, I can tell you too often we've allowed corruption and impropriety to tax New Yorkers. Corruption is a tax on the American people, and it's our responsibility to provide oversight.

But, Jim, let me also say not --

ACOSTA: Have you found any evidence of corruption on the part of the president?

MOLINARO: Jim, I know that I can chew gum and walk at the same time.

ACOSTA: But have you found any evidence of corruption on the president's part, or is this a fishing expedition?

MOLINARO: I think there's little question that -- no, I don't think so. Listen, I think there's little question that Hunter Biden was engaged in influence peddling. The question is whether or not government services and resources were part of those conversations. And that's what the constitutional requirement is for congressional oversight.

ACOSTA: Well, you're saying that there's a question --

MOLINARO: But again I can walk and chew gum at the same time.

ACOSTA: You have a question about it but you don't have any evidence or proof, right? Don't you usually have to have evidence or proof to go into an impeachment inquiry?

MOLINARO: Jim, we've seen obviously bank transactions. But that said, that's what an inquiry is. We ask the question, we get the answer, and the American people deserve it. Again, having lived in New York for too long, turning our back on corruption and impropriety is never a good idea.

ACOSTA: Yes. But should you -- do you think it's bad timing to be going into an impeachment inquiry like this when you can't even keep the government running? MOLINARO: We're focused on meeting the needs of the American people. I

don't think there's ever the right time or the wrong time to confront impropriety and corruption. If only I could do it on my schedule. But at this point we have questions to ask, and members like me will continue the work we have to do on behalf of the people we represent.

ACOSTA: All right. Congressman Marc Molinaro, thank you very much for your time. We appreciate it.

[18:10:05]

MOLINARO: Thanks, man. Be well.

ACOSTA: All right. Thank you.

Still ahead, former Trump White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson opens up about her bombshell testimony to the January 6th Committee and whether she still stands behind it.

Plus a sample from an asteroid arrives on Earth after a seven-year journey. What could it reveal?: Astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson joins us this hour. Can't wait for that. Stay with us.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ACOSTA: Former Trump White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson who delivered bombshell testimony to the January 6th Committee is now defending herself in her first television interview. Here's a clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE AIDE: What would I have to gain by coming forward? It would have been easier for me to continue being complicit and to stay in the comfortable zone of I had some sense of security, a semblance of security. I knew people I could easily reach out to for jobs. I had friends.

[18:15:06]

TRACY SMITH, "CBS SUNDAY MORNING": Have you talked to either Tony or Bobby since?

HUTCHINSON: I have not. I have not talked to many people in the Trump world since the day of my testimony.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: CNN senior crime and justice correspondent Katelyn Polantz joins me in the studio with more.

Katelyn, what about this Hutchinson interview? What more is she saying about her testimony?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, we haven't really heard anything from Cassidy Hutchinson since she testified to the House several months ago. And now she's out with this book tour and she's being quite reflective about what has happened to her since coming forward, that she has feared for her safety at times since testifying. And she's also reflecting a little bit about what happened, why she wasn't initially willing to recall things that she did remember when she had a lawyer that was paid for by Donald Trump, and then another lawyer came in to help her.

ACOSTA: Right.

POLANTZ: Someone that was not in the Trump fold who then took her before the House for that bombshell testimony. Here's a little bit about how she explained that period of time and that shift that she made.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HUTCHINSON: I felt torn a lot of the time because I knew what I knew and I wanted to come forward with what I knew, but at the same time I didn't want to feel like I was betraying them.

SMITH: You looked over the transcript and you counted the number of times that you said I don't know, I don't recall. I mean, you said I don't know and I don't recall more than 100 times.

HUTCHINSON: Yes, in the final transcripts it was ridden with I don't knows and I don't recalls, which was information that I very clearly recalled.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

POLANTZ: And so, Jim, the other thing that she's saying here is that she stands by that testimony, including some of the things that people had questioned the most, things that have not been corroborated by others such as this moment that she heard about from aides of Trump where Donald Trump was lunging in the SUV to go to the Capitol.

ACOSTA: Right.

POLANTZ: But we don't know exactly what, she believes she'll be a witness at trial if those stories will come out again.

ACOSTA: Yes. I have a feeling we're going to be hearing a lot more from her. Is she saying anything about the 2024 race?

POLANTZ: She is. She's been quite clear. And this is a person who served in a very senior role, was among the people in the room with Donald Trump many times with Chief of Staff Mark Meadows. And she's saying now she will not back the former president as he runs for president again in 2024. And she says, quote, "He was dangerous for the country, he's dangerous for the country."

ACOSTA: Interesting stuff. All right, Katelyn Polantz, thank you very much.

And CNN will interview Cassidy Hutchinson this week. You can tune in for that, Tuesday at 4:00 p.m. Eastern on "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER."

In the meantime, joining us with more on all of this, CNN senior political analyst John Avlon and CNN political commentator Margaret Hoover.

Guys, great to see you as always. Margaret, let's button up the conversation about Cassidy Hutchinson. You know, she said she had major security concerns after testifying before the January 6th Committee. A period of time she had to live down in Atlanta, I believe, she's saying. That's pretty striking, that she had to leave town because of this threat environment that a lot of these former Trump employees go through when they speak out against the former president.

What went through your mind when you heard some of that?

MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I'm really grateful for Cassidy Hutchinson to have -- at the time have the courage to come forward and tell the truth despite all of the dire repercussions. And this security concern is just another example of the kind of repercussions the person with the moral courage to do the right thing had to deal with. And that's something we really need to think about in our political system, as we ratchet up the rhetoric, as it's gotten coarser, as we have really made enemies out of our political opponents.

This is getting hotter and hotter to a point that this is not sustainable in a representative democracy that operates securely. We really -- her comments really gave me pause and really made me think about how all of us have a responsibility.

ACOSTA: Yes. John, what do you think?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Look, I think there's an atmosphere of threat and fear, and intimidation directed at people who have the courage to tell the truth. That's a bodyguard of lies. And that's a situation that's endemic within Donald Trump's Republican Party right now. And that's dangerous for our republic writ large. So make no sense, it's not just Cassidy Hutchinson, it's members of Congress and senators who say that they're afraid to take certain votes including impeachment because they're worried about the safety of their family so they hope other people have the courage to do what they know is right.

HOOVER: And also, how is this an advertisement for public service and for people who are good hearted, earnest, country (INAUDIBLE) citizens to go in and serve their country, because they're giving up a high degree of freedom and frankly, in many cases, their security. And this is true not only of Cassidy Hutchinson who worked directly for the president, but for hundreds of people who work at every level of the White House and other aspects of the executive branch? We really need to course correct here.

[18:20:09]

ACOSTA: Yes. And I think about both of you when having this conversation because you both at a young age got into Republican politics or covering Republican politics. And I just -- when I see Cassidy Hutchinson, I mean, she's not even 30 years old yet, I believe. I mean to think what that is -- that kind of message that is being sent to other young people around the country, you know, when you guys and I guess myself, when we were growing up, I mean, coming to Washington, working in Washington, that was like a young kid's dream. And now it's just a nightmare for a lot of these kids who get wrapped up in this stuff and end up speaking out. It's just -- it's so unfortunate.

But let's get to this new and somewhat controversial ABC News- "Washington Post" poll that finds Donald Trump 10 points up on Joe Biden among registered voters. Even as this new NBC News poll finds them tied.

John, what did you make of all this? "The Washington Post" even said, you know, this might be an outlier. I mean, one of the questions I have is, should news organizations publish polls that they don't have confidence in?

AVLON: No. I mean, let's just --

ACOSTA: Yes.

AVLON: This poll, it might be an outlier? It is an outlier. And the way you can tell that is because it's outlying from every other poll. By a lot, not a little. Yes, this isn't a margin of error difference. You know, there's going to be certain amount of noise in every poll. Ten points, a huge amount. And if the people pushing out the polls said they don't have confidence in it, then why are they putting it forward to the public?

HOOVER: Well, and what they did say, I mean, to paraphrase essentially, they said the unusual makeup of Trump's and Biden's coalitions in this survey suggest the poll is probably an outlier. So they at least said that.

AVLON: Yes.

HOOVER: But I think it's a wake-up call, Jim.

AVLON: It should be.

HOOVER: Because I don't think anybody should think that if this is a Biden-Trump rematch that President Biden is going to fail to re- election or the reverse. I think the history of presidential elections in this country in the last four or five presidential elections is that they are very close. And the likelihood that this is a 10-point spread in a Biden-Trump matchup is very unlikely. It is very likely that it is very close and it could go either way.

ACOSTA: The poll showed, yes.

(CROSSTALK)

AVLON: Yes, exactly. And I think there's a sense that if the parties have a rematch, some kind of stasis and stable, it's the opposite. This is a very risky game to play with our democracy. There are other candidates in the Republican field, in the CNN poll, in the NBC poll show particularly Nikki Haley do much better than Joe Biden. So if you're concerned about electability, you know, people would say the rational thing would be to look at that sort of new generation of candidates.

It's not like Donald Trump is growing his base with every indictment. And the same with, I understand the powers of incumbency. That's very appealing to Biden plus the record. But folks show there's a persistent deep concern about his handling a second term, even among Democrats. That's a risky thing to do to our democracy.

ACOSTA: No -- and I did want to touch on this upcoming debate, there's another Republican debate coming up in a few days. And the last time around we did not see these Republican candidates really going after Donald Trump all that much. Do you think that's going to change this time around? And I'll ask both of you the question that I asked Will Hurd in the previous hour which is, how is it that the Republican Party apparatus tolerates Donald Trump not participating in these debates? I mean, I guess he just does whatever he wants. It's ludicrous. How is he not participating?

AVLON: Two words, fear and greed. Right? The Republican Party knows better, they're afraid of his base, they're afraid of Donald Trump, and they're thinking politically about the partisan economy that's currently punishing people like Cassidy Hutchinson. They're not speaking clearly enough. And leadership above all is about speaking clearly and having the courage of your convictions.

HOOVER: The Republican Party also, Jim, it's worth reminding viewers the apparatus that runs the currency and the committee chairs and the committee members across the country have almost nothing to do with the representative members of the Republican Party in the U.S. Senate, for example, or in the House. I mean, these are and have always been the most extreme, the most gung-ho, the closest to the base of the party.

Often, I mean, we all have jokes about going to the RNC convention as some combination of the "Star Wars" bar and -- you know, like it's just an unrepresentative sample of the majority of Republicans in the country writ large. It is an activist base that is more extreme. And that base now isn't the conservative base from yesteryear. It is owned by Donald Trump. And so Donald Trump writes the rules. He gets to decide. That's the short answer.

AVLON: Yes, go on, Jim.

ACOSTA: No, I was just going to ask, John, who do you think needs to have a stand-out performance on Wednesday and who needs to start thinking about re-evaluating?

[18:25:04]

Will Hurd said in the previous hour, if he can't make it to the debate stage, he's got to start reevaluating. I have to think that conversation is going to start for some of these guys.

AVLON: Yes. If you can't make it to the debate stage, now is the time to think about dropping out. Nikki Haley had the strongest first debate in my estimation and many folks' estimation. If she does that a second time, she can start to make an argument that she's the prime contender. DeSantis has been falling among moderates. Tim Scott has got to step up. He had a lot of momentum going in the last debate. Didn't confront him.

This is all against the backdrop of a possible government shutdown. And I want to mention that just because that's a self-inflicted wound within a certain wing of the far-right of the Republican Party that makes it impossible to govern. And against that, Democrats can feel that they're in a strong position to make a case of governing and results. But this is all against that background music. And that's not going away.

So they have to have the courage of their convictions to talk about how they're going to make government work again and make the Republican Party representative of the American electorate again, and not hijacked by folks on the far right. Nikki Haley did a lot of that in the last debate. Let's see if she does it again.

ACOSTA: All right. Very good. Well, if we had more time, I was going to ask you about Taylor Swift at the Kansas City Chiefs game, but we'll talk about that another time. Something else that folks are talking about this evening.

AVLON: Next time.

ACOSTA: Next time. All right, Margaret Hoover, John Avlon, great to see you as always. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.

AVLON: Thank you. Be well.

ACOSTA: All right. You as well.

Coming up, NASA celebrating a touchdown of precious cargo. A seven- year mission to collect a piece of asteroid from outer space has just returned home to Earth. Astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson, there he is right there, he will join us live to break it all down for us. Does he have any rocks of his own that he'd like to show us? Perhaps we'll ask him about that as well.

Stay with us. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM. Sounds like no.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:31:04]

ACOSTA: NASA is celebrating after a mission that's simply out of this world.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Touchdown. I repeat, DDL. SRC has touched down. (END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: NASA has collected an asteroid sample from space. That's right. The capsule that scooped up the rock ended its seven-year journey this morning, landing in the Utah desert. Scientists hope the large chunk of space rock will help NASA learn more about the origins of our solar system. No small thing.

Let's bring in world renowned astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson whose latest book "To Infinity and Beyond: A Journey of Cosmic Discovery" was just released this month.

Neil, it looks like another great book. As always we appreciate you coming on. How amazing was this, what NASA pulled off today?

NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON, ASTROPHYSICIST: Well, I like to think of the big picture. First, credit goes to the engineers. You know, scientists all throughout this, but engineers made it work. So not enough hat tipping goes to the engineers.

ACOSTA: Yes.

TYSON: Right. We launched a space probe from Earth, itself a moving platform, to intersect an asteroid, itself a moving target. It then touches -- does a touch and go off of that asteroid surface and grabbing anything it could when it hit. We expected maybe a couple of ounces, but it got like half a pound of material got grabbed up into the capsule. Then that continued on to re-intersect Earth, deploy that capsule, and then it kept going and it's on to another asteroid. And so, yes, it is rocket science. And yes, it's a brilliant feat. And I look forward to more of this in the future.

ACOSTA: Absolutely. And what are we hoping to learn from all this? I mean, there's a long way to go, it's a complicated mission. There's got to be a good reason behind it.

TYSON: All evidence suggests that the asteroids are relics of the formation of the solar system 4.5 billion years ago. And think about it. On Earth's surface, there's nothing that old. It's been subducted, coming in and out of volcanos. Everything gets interfered with when you're on a planet. But if you're freely floating in space, you have the pristine ingredients. And what is likely we'll find is organic molecules.

You know, we think Earth is some special place to form organic chemistry. No. Carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, these elements, these organic basic ingredients. And some asteroids we have known have formed amino acids, the building blocks of protein, itself a building block for life. So there's a treasure trove of chemical information available to us ready when they open the capsule.

ACOSTA: And one of the things I think is interesting about us messing with this asteroid is -- and correct me if I'm wrong here, Neil, help me out, apparently this asteroid is a little bit of a tricky thing out there in space in that maybe in 100 or 200 years it might slam into Earth which doesn't sound so good. TYSON: Yes.

ACOSTA: So I guess being able to fly something over there and landing it on there, that might give us some faith that perhaps, what, we might be able to knock it off course or something down the road? Help us fill in the gaps here.

TYSON: Yes. Precisely. Unlike what they try to do in the movies which is like destroy it, that's unrealistic, typically given the mass of these asteroids. Asteroid Bennu from which this sample was removed is larger than the Empire State Building. And so what you want to do is deflect them. Either deflect them so that they pass ahead of Earth or behind Earth, and not hit us directly. And so the more we know about asteroids, especially their structural integrity, because some asteroids we have come to discover are loosely held together rubble piles. And so if you nudge on one part of it, it can just break off that piece without much affecting the rest.

[18:35:04]

So the more we understand about not only what they're made of, how they're held together, it will enable us to plan future missions of deflection. And by the way, that risk of hitting us is about one in 3,000 at this moment. But it's 150 years away. That's a perfect time frame to do something, OK?

ACOSTA: Yes. Let's get on that.

TYSON: Set up a defense system. Raise money and figure that out.

ACOSTA: We get Bruce Willis --

TYSON: If we don't -- no. That's not large enough to make us extinct. But it would do damage.

ACOSTA: Yes.

TYSON: If we suffer from an impact, we have no excuse because we have good orbital dynamic describing what that risk is.

ACOSTA: Yes. Plenty of time to get Bruce Willis and Aerosmith ready. Remember that movie?

(LAUGHTER)

ACOSTA: Apologies for that. And I have to apologize for the next thing I'm going to ask you, Neil, because I feel embarrassed asking you something like this. But what is going on with these aliens down in Mexico, the alien bodies, these purported alien bodies shown at this UFO hearing down in Mexico? I have to get you to weigh in on this because obviously this looks ridiculous and fake. But why do we keep getting suckered into this stuff and your thoughts when you saw this?

TYSON: Well, I said finally the aliens are being brought forth. In all of our testimonies in Congress they're in a locked box, you know, in the backroom. ACOSTA: Right.

TYSON: So I said finally we get to look at the aliens. That's step one. Step two is the reports of one individual from one group are not what establishes an objective truth in science, nor does holding your hand up, swearing that you're telling the truth. It's irrelevant. What matters is do other labs get the same results you do? That's what matters. I was a little worried that that whole display there is front of a green screen. You know? Because that remains susceptible --

ACOSTA: Never a good thing.

TYSON: -- to people putting anything behind it.

ACOSTA: Right.

TYSON: So what you do now is share these samples with other labs, skeptical labs around the world. And if they get the same results you do, you got something. That's what we did with the moon rocks when we brought them back. We spread them into the labs of the world so they could participate in this moving frontier of discovery. And until that happens, it's a sideshow at this point.

ACOSTA: And, Neil, to end it on a somewhat more serious note, given that we are developing the technology to land rockets on asteroid and collect samples and that sort of thing, do you think that there might be a time, might be a moment in the not-so-distant future where we will eventually develop the technology to detect some kind of organism, living organism other than ourselves out there in the cosmos? Do you have any kind of faith or confidence in that?

TYSON: This is a major driver.

ACOSTA: Yes. Yes.

TYSON: A major driver of NASA. NASA has had a mantra for the past several decades, follow the water. On Earth wherever there's liquid water, there's life. Even the Dead Sea has life. Just doesn't have macroscopic fishes. Whoever named it the Dead Sea didn't have a microscope.

ACOSTA: That's true.

TYSON: So there's water on Mars, on Jupiter's moon, Europa, and beneath the frozen surface, kept warm by the gravitational stress coming from Jupiter and surrounding moons. And it's an ocean of liquid water, more water than is here in Earth's oceans, and it's been liquid for billions of years. So yes, I want to go ice fishing on Europa to see if something happened there similar to what happened here on Earth.

So this has been a major search. The fact that some UFOs and aliens show up, OK. But we're actively looking. And we need something better than a fuzzy image. And the new hearings in Congress, where they're now inviting people to send in their data, we all have high resolution data detection devices. Perfect time to crack the nut of all of the UFO or UAPs, sorry. They were rebranded by the government.

ACOSTA: That's right. UAPs, yes.

TYSON: It's the same thing, you know.

ACOSTA: It is. It is. And we'd like to see more of these data.

TYSON: So I look forward to -- yes. Nobody doesn't want to meet the aliens. I worry that they maybe have visited but they landed like during Comic-Con and then they just got complimented for their costumes and no one noticed.

ACOSTA: Well, Neil, when we do meet them one day, I nominate you as the ambassador. Yes. I nominate you.

TYSON: Well, yes, if the alien says take me to your leader, I ain't taking them to the president. I'm taking them to my own people at NASA, at the National Academy of Sciences.

ACOSTA: There you go.

TYSON: I'm not taking them to a single politician. No.

ACOSTA: Good deal. All right, Neil, great to see you as always. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.

TYSON: Excellent. Thanks for having me.

ACOSTA: All right. We'll be right back. The truth is out there. We'll be right back.

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[18:43:58]

ACOSTA: COVID cases are on the rise again here in the U.S. and children are among the hardest being hit at this point.

And joining us now to talk about this is Dr. Peter Hotez. You might remember him, you see a familiar face there. He's a professor and dean of tropical medicine at Baylor College of Medicine. He's also the co- director of the Center for Vaccine Development at Texas Children's Hospital. And Dr. Hotez is also the author of the new book "The Deadly Rise of Anti-Science: A Scientist's Warning."

Dr. Hotez, great to be reunited with you. We had so many of those segments during COVID. Great to have you back. I guess I shouldn't say during COVID because I guess it's still with us? Is COVID making a comeback?

DR. PETER HOTEZ, CO-DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR VACCINE DEVELOPMENT: Yes, I mean, the numbers of hospitalizations and wastewater positivity cases also, though we're not counting them as much, have been going up since the summer. The hope is that it will start to plateau. There's some hints that maybe that's starting to happen. But there's still a lot of COVID. And anecdotally everyone is reporting people they know are getting COVID.

[18:45:00]

So the key here is to make certain that Americans take this new annual immunization. We're not calling it a booster. An annual immunization. I got mine last Saturday. And the reason is that will protect you against these currently circulating XBB variants which are quite different from what we've previously seen.

ACOSTA: Yes. I'm going to go get mine, and do, while I get the flu shot, why not get them both done at the same time. And I want to talk about your new book. You write about how the anti-vaccine movement was promoted by elected officials causing thousands of needless deaths. Why do you think these conspiracy theories persists, these anti- science messages and rhetoric? Why does it still persists do you think?

HOTEZ: Well, you know, the message of the book, Jim, is, you know, we call it misinformation or the infodemic as though it's just some random junk on the internet. And it's mostly not. It's -- this was predation. This is targeted aggression coming from elected leaders from the House, the House Freedom Caucus, Senator Ron Johnson and others. And we've heard just from Governor DeSantis this week, working hand in glove with FOX News.

And this is documented by two sources, Media Matters and a watchdog group and a research university in Switzerland. And the consequence of that is 200,000 Americans needlessly perished because they refused a COVID vaccine during the Delta wave when vaccines were more than 90 percent protective against severe illness and death and widely available. They became victims of this very predatory movement. It's very hard to talk about it because we don't -- as scientists we don't like to talk about politics. But this is a reality that we have to confront.

ACOSTA: And I know you've had to deal with threats against you and your family. And why is this happening in the U.S. right now? I mean, is this something you could study in a lab and put your finger on and say, this is what's going on here, why were we prime for something like this? Because it persisted so much during the height of the COVID pandemic. You and I talked about this on a number of occasions. How can scientists in this country be under attack simply for trying to keep people healthy?

HOTEZ: You know, it's something I never would have imagined to happen when I did my M.D. and PhD in New York 40 years ago. I mean, I made vaccines because I thought that was a high calling. This was science for humanitarian goals. And we made two COVID vaccines reaching 100 million people in low and middle-income countries. Low cost, no patent strings attached. And yet I'm attacked. We're attacked.

And this is the other part of the book. It's not only attacking the science, it's portraying scientists as public enemies or enemies of the state. And we're seeing this now play out in the House GOP-led COVID hearings, where they're parading prominent American scientists in front of C-SPAN cameras to try to humiliate them over nothing. And it's tragic because there's this reinvention of history, revisionist history going on. 200,000 Americans just needlessly perished because of predatory activities from elected officials, and FOX News, instead of having a real discussion about that and some accountability, what we're seeing as revisionist history.

They want to blame the vaccines on the deaths which is ridiculous or they want to claim the scientists invented the COVID virus, equally ridiculous. And so this is a very -- this tells the story of a very dark chapter in American history.

ACOSTA: Yes. And we have to deal with it.

Dr. Hotez, we're going to have you back as we continue to track COVID, but I wanted to make sure we have you on to talk about this book, it's a very important book.

Dr. Peter Hotez, author of the book "The Deadly Rise of Anti-Science: A Scientist's Warning." Dr. Hotez, great to see you and thank you for all the work you did during the height of the pandemic and the work that you continue to do. It's greatly appreciated. Thank you very much.

HOTEZ: Thank you, Jim, for giving us a voice.

ACOSTA: You got it.

All right. We'll be right back.

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[18:53:21]

ACOSTA: There is a special place in Chef Jose Andres' heart for his home country. And in the new series on CNN, "JOSE ANDRES AND FAMILY IN SPAIN," we get a unique look at the country he loves so much. Here is a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE ANDRES, CHEF, HOST OF "JOSE ANDRES AND FAMILY IN SPAIN": Ladies, let's go.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got it.

ANDRES: Come on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Go, I'm going. We weigh too much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is the best way to eat our way around Barcelona?

ANDRES: This is the best way to eat around Barcelona. You're going to stop right, left, here, there, everywhere. Man, I'm hungry.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tapas, Papa. Tapas.

ANDRES: Yes. We're going to do tapas. I'm hungry.

In America, I became famous for bringing Spanish-style tapas into my restaurants. In its most traditional form, it's ham, cheese, sausage, or tomato bread. In the old days, people put these open-faced sandwiches over their glass to keep the dust out. The name tapas actually comes from the Spanish word tapar which means to cover. For busy workers, it was intended to be a quick, easy and inexpensive way to refuel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Man, oh, man, I'm hungry already. Well, I had a chance to sit down with Chef Jose Andres and I asked him why it was so important to start off in Barcelona.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDRES: Barcelona is a city I grew up. I was born in the north of Spain, Asturias, but I arrived with my family when I was 5 years old. I speak Catalan.

[18:55:02]

I grew up in a little farming village 30 minutes outside Barcelona. I have cousins in Catalan. My culinary life very much began in Catalonia. So for me, Barcelona is like home. And for me, every time I go Barcelona, I don't know. It's the smell in the streets. It's the markets. It's the people. It's a place that you kind of see that I'm instantly happy. But for a lot of family reasons, Barcelona has now been the place I've been taking my daughters. We've been going more to other parts of Spain because Spain is a small country, but then even a small country is a big country.

For me to go to Barcelona, and for me to show my daughters the places I will go when I was young, the friends I grew up cooking in the same restaurants is when I was 15 and 16, this is something like really --

ACOSTA: This is where you start?

ANDRES: As a father, it gives me a lot of joy. So for me to take my daughters to show them the Barcelona I love and where I grew up was something very special.

ACOSTA: And I read you say tapas is me, because of Barcelona, you have to think about tapas. And you say tapas -- I've never heard that before. Why do you say tapas is me?

ANDRES: Well, tapas is me because it's the way I'm very happy when I go eating, meaning I don't like to go one place. Very often you never know when you are going back to city or to a neighborhood. And if you can do two, three, four places at lunch or a dinner, I think it's far away more fun. And I like fun. And that's why tapas is me. And I love people to do eating, and the same way I do it. Let's go one place. Let's eat. 30 minutes, let's go next one, let's go to the next one. And Barcelona gives you that flexibility to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: All right. Now I want some tapas. My thanks to Chef Jose Andreas. The premiere episode of "JOSE ANDRES AND FAMILY IN SPAIN" is tonight at 9:00 Eastern and Pacific right here on CNN. Check it out.

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