Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Interview With Representative Ralph Norman (R-SC) About Possible Government Shutdown; Interview With Representative Brendan Boyle (D-PA) About Deadline To Fund The Government; No Deal In Sight To Avert Government Shutdown; Rep. Gosar Calls For America's Top General To Be Hanged; Hollywood Writers Could Reach A Deal Shortly. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired September 24, 2023 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:01:20]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington. Good evening.

The government is headed straight for a shutdown at the end of this week unless Congress can come to an agreement and pass a spending bill at the end of this week. But as the hours go by, and we get closer to that deadline on midnight of September 30th, there you see it on screen, there are no signs of compromise among Republican lawmakers.

House Speaker Kevin McCarthy admits he doesn't have the votes at this point, even for a stopgap measure, and members of his own party, GOP hardliners are stymieing him in his efforts to keep the government open.

Let's discuss more now with Republican Congressman Ralph Norman of South Carolina. He serves on the House Budget and Financial Services Committees. He's also a member of the House Freedom Caucus.

Congressman, thanks very much for being with us. We appreciate it. So do you think we're heading toward a shutdown? What's your sense of it right now?

REP. RALPH NORMAN (R-SC): Yes, we are. We will be next week. We met Saturday in Rules Committee. We passed out four bills that we'll send to the floor, Department of Defense, Agriculture, Homeland Security and State and Foreign Ops. We will put them on the floor. We'll probably debate it the next two days and vote on it by Friday, and hopefully send that over.

But, Jim, the real issue is not the shutdown. The real issue is the two crises we have in this country. Economic security crisis and economic crisis. We've got a problem in this country. And what we've done in rules is attach to the homeland bill. We've got the language that unless they enforce HR-2, that is the security border, strict enforcement of that, we're not going to fund what Mayorkas, because he hasn't done the job and he hasn't put the money to it.

This administration has put this country in a tough shape economically and with national security. So --

ACOSTA: Well, won't a government shutdown exacerbate the economic situation in this country? And it's certainly not going to help down at the border if Border Patrol agents aren't getting paid because there is a government shutdown.

NORMAN: Well, what's -- we can't expect a different result. Again, we've done this I don't know how many years. That's we've got to $32 trillion in debt. We're going to have a permanent shutdown if we don't get this economic crisis handled in this country. And so we're going try to -- you know, one thing that we did in January in the election of McCarthy is ask for the spending bills, 12 appropriation bills to go line item by line item in June and July and not wait until the last minute. So September 30th has never been a figment of our imagination. October 1 has always been the new budget year. And --

ACOSTA: Is there a part of you that wants to shut the government down to send a message? Is that part of this? There are just some members in the Freedom Caucus who want to shut it down to see if the message can get across that you're trying to send.

NORMAN: No. The message we're getting across is it's not business as usual. We're not going bankrupt this country. We're just not going to do it. And they keep doing the same thing. And we've always -- I mean, both Democrat and Republican, Jim, have run it down to the wire. And then it will go on these continuing resolutions. It will go to -- you know, if we approve it a spending gap, a spending amount, either 30 days or we get it through Christmas, and then say, oh, we're going to have to go to the same spending levels, but much higher, as we've always done. And we're just not -- we're not doing that.

ACOSTA: Yes. Well --

NORMAN: So you got a government that sure shut the businesses down. They sure shut the school children out of schools. And it's time that we get a handle on it. And we're going to do it.

[19:05:04]

ACOSTA: Well, let me ask you this. House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, he had some choice words for members of your conference, Republican conference, his own party. Let's listen to what he told reporters on Thursday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): It's frustrating in the sense that I don't understand why anybody votes against bringing the idea and having the debate. And then you've got all the amendments if you don't like the bill. This is a whole new concept of individuals that just want to burn the whole place down. That doesn't work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Congressman, the speaker there saying there are members of your conference who want to burn the whole place down. Are you one of those members who wants to burn the whole place down? It sounds like he is calling you an arsonist.

NORMAN: No. Look, it's not about Kevin McCarthy. Kevin should have had us working in July and August to come up with an agreement on the spending bills. And he had agreed in January to do that, to get us on a downward spending trajectory. He just hasn't done that. He's been in Congress 17 years.

Now, you know, we either are going to face a reality, and he calls frustrated with us. The American people are frustrated with the way government has not worked and the way government politicians have spent their money. And so what we're doing --

ACOSTA: But how can you and other Freedom Caucus members drive this hardline here? How can others in your caucus demand that you have this position that everybody has to go along with when you don't have the numbers?

NORMAN: Well, we passed a DOD bill out, and it didn't have the numbers. Look, it's all about the, again, economic security. And anybody that doesn't see what's going on at the border and doesn't know that this country is -- we're at a tipping point. And we either handle it or we don't. And I don't like the shutdown.

ACOSTA: But government employees won't be getting paychecks. Members of the military won't be getting paychecks. Members of the Border Patrol down on the border won't be getting paychecks. You're comfortable with that?

NORMAN: That's not right. They're going to get paid backpay. Whenever we open back up, and we will open back up. Look, Jim, the sun is going to still shine. The ocean --

ACOSTA: But that's real pain that they're going to be going through. I mean --

(CROSSTALK)

ACOSTA: Are you going to get paid?

NORMAN: Yes. Congress gets paid. I don't make the -- I didn't write the Constitution. I'm not that old.

ACOSTA: Yes.

NORMAN: But what I'll tell you this is there are a lot of Americans living paycheck to paycheck. And, you know, simply, you can agree or disagree with it but --

ACOSTA: A lot of members of the military are living paycheck to paycheck.

(CROSSTALK)

ACOSTA: If they're not getting paid, you said they're going to get backpay. If they're living paycheck to paycheck, that doesn't sound too good for members of the military, members of the Border Patrol? NORMAN: No, it's not. No -- well, the border, no, it's not. But ask

any -- you mentioned Border Patrol. They're so frustrated with what this administration is doing to let everybody in, everybody in this country. It's just not right. And we're on tap to have 15 million illegals in this country as we -- how is that working out in New York? It's not. And so we're tying the border security now to homeland security.

We're going to do that on every appropriations bill to get a number, and we'll see where it goes. Everybody listening to this show ought to call their senator because that's who we're going to put it back on. And thank God, finally, Schumer is getting booed. AOC is getting booed. The American public knows what's going on.

ACOSTA: Are you prepared to take responsibility for this? Because, you know, we were talking to John Bolton, the former National Security adviser, in a previous hour on this program who said typically when the government shuts down, Republicans get blamed for it. Isn't that what's going to happen this time around? Are you prepared to shoulder that blame?

NORMAN: Look, this isn't about blame. This is about doing what's right for the country. And we're trying to do that. It isn't business as usual. And, you know, the fact that Americans live paycheck to paycheck because of this Bidenomics, you know the one family it's working for? Joe Biden and his family. No one else it's working for. The 330 million Americans don't deserve it. And all we're saying is let's live like every business and every family does.

Look at your spending and try to agree on it, and know this will be the Senate's responsibility and the Democrats who have caused this crisis. And it shouldn't be at this point in the history of this country.

ACOSTA: But how can you accuse Democrats of causing this crisis when you're the ones who are going to shut down the government? You're saying you're going to do it. That's you.

NORMAN: What you're missing is, the last three and a half years, we've had an invasion. He's opened it up. And guess what? And I suspected this. It's for keeping Democrats in office. He is giving -- Jim, get this.

ACOSTA: Wait a minute, Congressman. Are you saying that --

NORMAN: He is giving Social Security and driver's licenses to illegal aliens.

ACOSTA: What are you trying to say, that there's an invasion of migrants in this country and the Democrats are doing this to get elected? Is that what you're saying? That's just not true.

[19:10:05]

NORMAN: No, it is true. Look it up. He has given Social Security numbers and driver's licenses. He has done it in New York. What do you call that? What else can you call that? Give me a term for it.

ACOSTA: Sir, that is something that -- I mean, it sounds like what you're doing when you say that is demonizing immigrants. When you say that they're coming into this country as some part of some invasion to change the political calculus in this country. That's just not the case. There are lots of people who come into this country as immigrants end up voting Republican. I guess that doesn't add up.

NORMAN: They're coming to this country illegally. They come into this country illegally. You can term it however you want. They come into it illegally. Never before have we opened our borders up to every country all across the globe. And we're going to stop it one way or another.

ACOSTA: But how are you -- how are you going to lock down the border? How are you going to have better border protection if you shut down the government? I guess I don't understand that. That doesn't make any sense.

NORMAN: Well, what does make sense -- and we're going to have to force -- the public is going to have to force this Biden administration to let the Border Patrol agents do their job, to get the wall built, have designated points of entry. And this administration is just not doing it. They're doing it intentionally. And whether you agree with it or not, they're doing it for power. Why are they giving Social Security numbers and driver's licenses?

ACOSTA: What do you mean by that? Why are you saying -- they're intentionally doing what? Where is your evidence of this? Where is your proof of this? It just sounds like you're throwing rhetoric around with no basis in fact.

NORMAN: No, you can -- have you been to the border?

ACOSTA: Of course I have.

NORMAN: Have you seen what's going on, the rapes? It's open. I mean, nobody can deny that.

ACOSTA: The border is --

NORMAN: And they've got -- it's a crisis. Where?

ACOSTA: I'll ask the questions, sir. And the border is not open. That is something that is peddled as a talking point, it's not true. There are fences. There are walls. There are Border Patrol agents who work on the border.

NORMAN: The five plus million that have gotten into this country illegally is not a figment of our imagination. Ask the Border Patrol agents. Ask anybody down there. They're frustrated.

ACOSTA: And I guess I have -- you have not been able to answer my question as to how you effectively do border enforcement if you're shutting down the government. But I guess we're not going to get an answer to that question. Right? I mean, if you shut down the government, Saturday rolls around, you're going to have Border Patrol agents who are going to be without pay. How are they going to want to go out there and do border patrol enforcement if they're not getting paid? It sounds like an ineffective way of running the government.

NORMAN: Ask this president why -- well, what's ineffective is this president doing what he is doing to America, and it shouldn't happen.

ACOSTA: Your own speaker says you want to burn the whole place down.

NORMAN: I disagree with that. He's -- we should, again, I'm not going to repeat it. You can say all you want, the border is closed and the border is an orderly, people are being processed. They're not. He has created a national security problem. When you have pilots telling me that, you know, as when I was down there, the pilots, the people --

ACOSTA: You're a member Congress when Donald Trump said he was going to build a wall down on the border, and it didn't happen. He said Mexico was going to pay for it, and it didn't happen.

NORMAN: Jim, look, those are your talking points. He did build a wall. He couldn't finish it because Joe Biden stopped him when he unfortunately went into office. And steel is laying on the ground, paying subcontractors. And so it's a national security problem. You're, you know --

ACOSTA: Congressman --

NORMAN: CNN should report what's going on.

ACOSTA: We are down there at the border all the time reporting on what's taking it place. We're doing it every day.

Congressman, thanks very much for your time. We appreciate it. We'll be right back.

NORMAN: Yes, sir.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:18:07]

ACOSTA: It's just after 7:00 p.m. here in Washington, but all eyes are on midnight, Saturday. Lawmakers have just six days now to pass a spending bill to fund the government and prevent a shutdown.

And joining us now with the Democratic point of view on all this is Congressman Brendan Boyle of Pennsylvania.

Congressman, thanks for being with us. We appreciate it. You're the ranking Democrat on the House Budget Committee. We're just talking to one of your Republican colleagues just a few moments ago, Ralph Norman of South Carolina. When I asked him, are we heading towards a shutdown, he simply said yes. Is that your sense of it as well?

REP. BRENDAN BOYLE (D-PA): If we have a government shutdown, which I'm sad to say at this point looks likely, it will be because there are a couple dozen Republican members at least who want a government shutdown. And I have the quotes. I have cited them before in Budget Committee hearings, various House Republicans have outright said they want a government shutdown. They think it would be a good thing.

And Kevin McCarthy, let me say, he was actually honest over this weekend when he admitted that he has several members who in his own words want to burn the place down. So the problem with this Republican civil war is, as long as they're in the majority in the House of Representatives, all of us are being held hostage, as well as the American people by the Republican chaos and confusion.

ACOSTA: And what can you do as Democrats at this point? Because we talked to Congressman Molinaro of New York in the previous hour and he was trying to say that, well, we're trying to work inside the Republican conference, is essentially what he was saying, and not necessarily work with Democrats just yet.

But if we get to the 11th hour, is it possibly the case that we'll see a scenario where Republicans, Democrats try to put some kind of continuing resolution together to avoid this shutdown? Is that a scenario that might emerge?

[19:20:01]

BOYLE: Yes. That is the scenario that I am most hopeful for. We have all 213 House Democrats. So we just need five House Republicans. And I know there are more than five who come election time in their districts always like to call themselves moderate and independent. Well, here is a chance for them to prove it. Join with the House Democrats. Let's pass a 30 to 60-day continuing resolution.

Let's make sure it's not loaded up, there isn't anything in there that tilts toward one side or the other. It just would give us more time and ensure that we don't suffer the damage of a shutdown because the previous guest that was on couldn't cite these details, the reality is with every previous government shutdown, nonpartisan analysis has shown we lose billions and billions of dollars in terms of productivity to the economy.

Congressional Budget Office said the last government shutdown led to 120,000 fewer jobs as a result of that shutdown. So there is a real cost to shutdowns. We can prevent it if they're just willing to join us and actually strike out in a bipartisan way.

ACOSTA: And one of the things that Congressman Norman was saying just a few moments ago when we talked to him, I mean, he's essentially saying that unless the members of the House and I suppose the members of the Senate acquiesce to their demands in the House Freedom Caucus, when it comes to what they want to see down at the border, that they're just not going to be on board with getting any kind of spending bill through the Congress. Without those members of the House Freedom Caucus, can you get it done?

BOYLE: So the only way to get it done is exactly what we did in June, Jim, if you remember to raise the debt ceiling. That was the one and only time Kevin McCarthy was willing to stand up to his Freedom Caucus members and work with the Democratic president, the Democratic Senate, as well as Democratic House members. And look at the result. The bill that passed in June to raise the debt ceiling? 80 percent of House Democrats and 67 percent of House Republicans voted for that legislation.

So we know it's not a hypothetical that if there is willingness on the leadership on the other side to strike a fair compromise, it's there for the taking. The challenges that Kevin McCarthy is still not willing again to stand up to his Freedom Caucus members.

ACOSTA: And do you think his speakership is in trouble at the end of this week?

BOYLE: Well, I do fear that, frankly, it does seem as if Kevin McCarthy is more concerned with his own job rather than the over 100,000 lost jobs that would take place to the nation if we were to have a government shutdown. I hope and would urge him to recognize that constantly attempting to appease and bend over backwards to his own most extreme members is a losing proposition because, frankly, they never take yes for an answer.

They're always no because I get to where -- exactly where I began. They actually want a government shutdown. That is the major reason why for that crowd they will never get to yes.

ACOSTA: And while I have I have to ask you about Senator Bob Menendez. He obviously is a Democratic senator from the state next door to you, in New Jersey. He is facing these growing calls to resign as he faces federal bribery charges. Menendez is essentially saying at this point, he is standing firm. He is not stepping down. Do you think he should step down?

BOYLE: No. I think in the end this is very simple, and only Bob Menendez can really answer this question. If he is innocent, he should stay and fight the charges and explain publicly why the evidence that has been presented, at least according to media reports I've read, because I have not read the indictment. I've been dealing with budget issues. But he should address them publicly. And if he believes in his innocence and is innocent, then I think he should stay and fight it.

He is entitled to due process. Now of course, if he actually did that to which, you know, he's been accused of, then obviously the answer to that would be no.

ACOSTA: And if the governor of New Jersey is saying he should step down, you're just not there yet?

BOYLE: Yes, you know, and I recognize that I'm probably on the unpopular side of this, Jim. But I am increasingly concerned over the last five or seven years there has been a tendency in a number of various kind of cases that any time an accusation comes out, the person is immediately forced out, whether it's an industry or an office. And I'm kind of an old-fashioned civil libertarian, an old- fashioned liberal in the sense that I believe in due process that he deserves his day in court. If the evidence against him is as it has been presented in the indictment, and it's pretty clear what the end result will be in this case.

But that said, he is entitled to that due process. Every citizen is as well, even if frankly it's probably not the most popular thing to say.

[19:25:02]

ACOSTA: All right. Congressman Brendan Boyle, thank you very much for being with us this evening. We appreciate it.

BOYLE: Thank you.

ACOSTA: All right. Still ahead, we'll talk about why folks in the MAGA movement are celebrating a new poll that is also drawing criticism. We'll break that down next.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): We should have separate single subject spending bills. Kevin McCarthy promised that in January. He is in breach of that promise. So I'm not here to hold the government hostage. I'm here to hold Kevin McCarthy to his word.

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR, STATE OF THE UNION: If Speaker McCarthy ultimately allows a deal to pass with Democratic votes, would you support ousting him from the speaker's chair?

[19:30:06]

REP. TIM BURCHETT (R-TN): That would be something I would look strongly at, ma'am. If we do away with our duty that we said we're going to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And joining us with more on all of this is Molly Jong-Fast, "Vanity Fair" special correspondent and CNN senior political commentator, Scott Jennings. Great to see both of you on this Sunday evening. Thanks a lot.

Scott, we were just talking a few moments ago with Congressman Ralph Norman of South Carolina, Republican member of the Freedom Caucus; Brendan Boyle, Democrat House Budget Committee. They're both in agreement. It sounds that we're heading towards a shutdown.

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, it seems that way. Although I would say over the course of the last year McCarthy has on occasion pulled a rabbit out of a hat, but there are a handful of these Republicans that have no strategy, no real end game in mind.

And frankly, I think they think part of their constituency wants a shutdown, like they're catering to a small group of people who think it's a good idea to shut down the government. You know, there's no leverage in that, there never has been anytime

these shutdowns occur. You're going to see the Republican Party get blamed.

It's kind of shocking to me that at a time, when you look at all this polling that's coming out, Republicans seem to have the Democrats on the ropes a little bit. They have Biden on the ropes and the American people are deeply skeptical of the Democratic policies that we're going to self-emulate over this shutdown when it's totally unnecessary.

ACOSTA: Yes. Molly, I mean, if you're the Democrats right now, what do you do? You just sit back and let them do this, I guess?

MOLLY JONG-FAST, SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT, "VANITY FAIR": Yes, Sit back and -- I mean, I'm shocked to agree with Scott Jennings. I'm just shocked. But you know, yes. I mean, Matt Gaetz has no plan, right? He doesn't have some other speaker waiting in the wings.

And I do think that a lot of these people, this MAGA caucus thinks that anything the government does is bad, and so they should try to destroy the federal government, which is ironic, because that is where they are employed.

ACOSTA: Well, and let's talk about sort of the polls that Scott just mentioned. There are these wildly divergent polls out today, one from ABC News/Washington Post, the other from NBC.

One of them has Trump up by 10 points, the ABC/Washington Post poll, but "The Post" itself said, Scott, that this may be an outlier. And I guess one of the questions to both of you is, should we even be publishing polls that we're not completely confident? I mean, if this thing is an outlier, why even put it out there?

JENNINGS: Well, the pollster for "The Washington Post" earlier this year had a poll that was sort of Republican leaning and so something about the way they're doing it is producing a result here. The NBC poll that came out that had a tied race also had some blinking red lights for Biden.

ACOSTA: Yes.

JENNINGS: I think in that survey, if you look under the hood, more Americans actually were worried about Biden's age than were worried about Donald Trump's indictments, and so there are things going on in both surveys that ought to be of some concern for the White House. And of course, there are things going on in these surveys that ought to be of concern for Republicans, because if you look at just how bad a shape Joe Biden is in, Republicans ought to be beating him and Donald Trump gets, you know, to tie in the averages and ahead in one survey.

I don't think either one of them are going to win this race by 10 points, but there's warning signs for everybody in all of these and, of course, we don't have a national election, we have elections in individual states. ACOSTA: Well, Molly, I mean, that brings up a good point and that is

-- and feel free to go off on any tangent, you want. I know that you don't love these national polls. We've talked about this on previous programs.

But then we just had this New Hampshire poll that came out just a couple of days ago that showed Joe Biden in front of Donald Trump and that is what a lot of Democrats have been saying is that we don't have national determinations as to who the president is going to be. It's going to be state by state.

JONG-FAST: Yes, I mean, first of all, national poll 400-plus days outside of the election, you know, we saw -- I mean, there were -- we saw polling up until almost the very end where Hillary Clinton was in 90 percent chance of winning, but I think polls have only gotten less accurate since there and we've seen that again and again, remember the red wave that was supposed to happen in the midterms.

but I just want to come back to earth one for a second and remind our viewers that Donald Trump has four indictments and a superseding indictment. He has been impeached twice and ran an armed insurrection. Joe Biden is three years older than he is.

So I understand that there is a desire on the part of Republicans to make the false equivalency that being three years older than Donald Trump is the same or worse than being, you know, twice impeached four times indicted, but I don't think those two things are the same. And I really do believe that a swing voter in Michigan is not going to go and vote for someone who says I am your redemption. I am your -- you know, you must come follow me so that we can make it right for my impeachments. I just don't think that's a winning message.

[19:35:07]

JENNINGS: But I will just say as a counter argument on that, that if you are one of the swing voters in Michigan, and maybe you don't love everything that Donald Trump has done, say on January 6th, or since the election to show him right now tied or ahead of Joe Biden in any of these surveys shows the absolute deep anxiety and anger that exists among those swing voters over the economy.

And so my view is until the Biden White House figures out how to solve their economic messaging issues, and mostly around inflation, they are going to continue to struggle in these national surveys.

ACOSTA: Molly, the president is going out in Michigan -- yes.

JONG-FAST: Yes, I mean, I would agree that for sure, inflation is a major problem, and no one likes paying more for things. Right? That is, you know, there is no question and there are certainly economic, you know, messaging issues in the administration.

But I do think that we are looking at polling that is just out of -- I mean, these are very small numbers, but they're also just, this is not how we communicate anymore. You know, I've been interviewing pollsters all the time on my podcast,

and I say, you know, how have you changed your methodology? And a lot of times, unless it's very, very high quality polling where they follow the person, it's a lot. It's still very kind of -- you know, they have not kept up with the times.

ACOSTA: Yes.

All right, well, we'll have to see what the next round of polls show, but so far, we did a poll on the polls. I don't know how well the polls would do. I don't know -- which is my sense of it.

But all right, Molly Jong-Fast, Scott Jennings, thanks a lot, guys. Appreciate it.

Still ahead, the feud between former President Trump and soon to be former Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Mark Milley reaching an alarming new point, with Trump making some outrageous statements about the outgoing chairman of the Joint Chiefs. We'll talk about next. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:41:01]

ACOSTA: Republican Congressman Paul Gosar is echoing for President Donald Trump suggesting that outgoing Joint Chiefs Chairman Mark Milley should be "hung" for his supposed disloyalty to Donald Trump.

In a bizarre rant published on his government website today, the Arizona Republican accuses General Milley without evidence of conspiring with Democrats to delay law enforcement response on January 6. The rhetoric is eerily similar to comments Trump just made on Truth Social writing: "In times gone by, Milley's punishment would have been death."

Joining us now to talk about this is retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling.

General Hertling, great to talk to you as always. I know, typically we talk about what's taking place in Ukraine and on the battlefield and so on, but I really wanted to talk to you about these escalating attacks, this dangerous rhetoric that's being directed at members of the military, and specifically about the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Your reaction.

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, a different sort of battlefield, isn't it, Jim?

You know, this proposed violence by any political figure is disgusting. It shows how deeply disturbed both of these individuals are and both of their rants, not just the tweet you showed from Representative Gosar, but his delivered statement to the press was sexist, racist, vile, and it just shows the extent to which these kinds of things have become commonplace and not condemned in our divided country. It's not the first time for either one of these individuals. Gosar in

2021 was censured from the House and removed from his committee because he threatened or he posted a video of him killing Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and attacking President Biden.

It continues and it really needs to be stopped, Jim. This is just serious business, and I'm condemning it if no one else does.

ACOSTA: Well, it's totally condemnable and I mean, we're not even going to put on screen what he said, because it's just so disgusting and vile.

But, you know, I wonder how unusual this is to have these kinds of attacks being directed at the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs.

Obviously, there may be times, at one point or another where you may disagree with how the chairman conducted himself, obviously, he took a lot of criticism for what took place at Lafayette Square Park outside the White House, after George Floyd but you know, to take it to this level, it just seems dangerous, especially in this climate.

HERTLING: Well, and it also shows how neither one of these individuals, excuse me, actually understands the job that the chairman executes. He is the senior military adviser. He's not a commander of forces. He's the guy that provides advice to the secretary of Defense and the president and he also coordinates and oversees all the combatant commanders.

So you know, throwing the blame on him for all sorts of things that have occurred in government just seems to be malicious, and certainly, as I said before vile, and it shows just how deeply disturbed both of these individuals are and how they are disconnected from the role of government officials.

And even if they did know what General Milley's jobs were and what his performance requirements were, still doing this in a public forum to threaten to either hang or just shoot him for being a traitor, it is just bizarre, Jim, and somewhat ridiculous and a little bit sick.

ACOSTA: And help us out a little bit in terms of why General Milley was doing what he was doing around the time between the election and the inauguration of President Biden.

One of the things that has rankled people inside Trump World was that General Milley was calling some of his foreign counterparts and trying to reassure them around the world that the United States government was okay and that we weren't going to launch any kind of bizarre out- of-nowhere military attacks.

I mean he was essentially trying to keep a lid on things, isn't that right?

[19:45:05]

HERTLING: Yes, he was, and in many of the articles that have appeared lately, that has been extended conversation about all those actions have been written about.

And truthfully, Jim, as a former senior general in the army, you do things that are called engagements with your counterparts, with your peers in other countries. You try and actually contribute to the diplomacy of the United States by talking to your military colleagues and cohorts in other countries. That's what General Milley was doing.

And when you talk about the kind of engagements he has to make around the world, by last count, I think the United States engages with about 192 different countries, so Milley is trying during his term of office to become familiar with those generals to kind of assuage them when things are happening on the diplomatic or the political front to tell them what's going on and to assure them, as well as deter them from doing things that are again counter to the United States.

He also assures them so that they don't get on a trigger stance and start doing things that would lead to unfortunate conflict or even war. That's happened before when there's been a lack of misunderstanding between the military forces.

ACOSTA: Absolutely. Well, we appreciate it as always. We'll talk Ukraine next time, but in the meantime, General Hertling, thanks so much for being with us. We appreciate it.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:50:52]

ACOSTA: We are waiting for word on the marathon Hollywood writers' strike talks that are underway right now. We're told an agreement could come at any time.

CNN's Camila Bernal now joins us now from Los Angeles. What's the latest?

CAMILA BERNAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's a waiting game, Jim. It's so difficult because really everyone here in LA and all the writers, everyone in the industry is just waiting to hear from the WGA.

We heard from the studios' side and sources there saying that they made a best and final offer, but a lot of these writers are questioning what is this best and final offer? Is it a best and final offer?

So there's a lot of skepticism. They want their demands met. And that's in terms of residuals, in terms of their payments and their wages, and also in terms of artificial intelligence. And a lot of these writers say they're going to keep on essentially not working for as long as it takes because they want those demands to be met. There was many striking on the picket lines today and here is what one of those writers had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DAVID SLACK, WRITER AND PRODUCER, WGA MEMBER: I mean, I think until

you hear it from the WGA, you have to take all of that with a grain of salt.

We're trying to save writers' ability to pay their rent, to pay for a mortgage, to put kids through school, to save for a rainy day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERNAL: And if there is a deal, the members will have to ratify this deal. But furthermore, the actors also are on strike and don't have a deal. So it is going to take some time to get things back to normal here -- Jim.

ACOSTA: All right, Camila Bernal, keep us posted. Thanks a lot. Appreciate it.

Also tonight, a new era for Kansas City, Taylor Swift was spotted this afternoon at the Chiefs game against the Chicago Bears. There she is right there.

In recent weeks. Swift has been the center of romantic rumors involving Super Bowl champion and tight end, Travis Kelce of the Chiefs as she appeared to be sitting next to Kelce's mother earlier today.

During an interview with ESPN earlier this week -- this past week, Kelce revealed he had invited Swift to watch him play at Arrowhead Stadium. She watched Kelce score and Kansas City won big, 41 to 10. Hopefully the Bears can shake it off.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:57:10]

ACOSTA: For the past year, CNN's Donie O'Sullivan has been investigating a group which some call a cult that believes President Kennedy and his son John Kennedy, Jr. are alive and in hiding.

Next on "The Whole Story" with Anderson Cooper, Donie takes us on a journey across the country to meet the believers, their frustrated families, and the mother of their QAnon leader.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONIE O' SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over); For a time, Michael was sleeping in his car. He had lost his family, he had lost his business, but then he found Telegram.

COLLEEN PROTZMAN, MICHAEL PROTZMAN'S MOTHER: I remember him telling his friends, I'm on Telegram and all of a sudden I have these followers.

He'd been trying to convince us that he was right for years. And these people said, you're right.

(GROUP singing "Happy Birthday.")

PROTZMAN: Like they say, it's your family isn't with you, make your own family.

MICHAEL PROTZMAN: I am telling you once and for all, I am Jesus Christ 174 --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And Donie joins us now.

Donie, this is just very disturbing stuff. You know, let's dive right into this.

Why did Michael Protzman's mom decide to sit down with you for an interview?

DONIE O'SULLIVAN: So the man you saw in that video there is Michael Protzman. He was running this group that some called a cult, you know, QAnon type offshoot where basically they believe JFK, Jr., possibly JFK is still alive and are going to come back and going to work with Trump somehow, to save America.

Obviously, it's up next. Hopefully, people will stick around to watch it. But I think really, what we wanted to do with this documentary was get beyond you know, the kind of craziness of this conspiracy theory. You know, it is irrational, there's no point in trying to rationalize these beliefs, and really look at the effect that this is having on American families.

Even in the case of Michael Protzman, who is this so-called cult leader, I guess, we spoke to his own mom who was kind enough to share her story and tell us how Michael himself before kind of sucking people in kind of got sucked into the rabbit hole himself.

And look, Jim, and I mean, you and I know this very well. I mean, you know, this might look fringe. It's obviously a bit crazy. But at the same time, you know, the election lies that are being pushed by people, very senior positions in government and in the Republican Party and whatnot, that all really feeds into this stuff, because that whole QAnon environment, you know, it kind of goes hand in hand with this stuff.

ACOSTA: Yes, it's very dangerous. I'm glad you're looking into it. And we're all going to be watching in the next several seconds here, Donie O'Sullivan.

Donie, great to see you as always. Thanks very much. We appreciate it.

The all-new episode of "The Whole Story" with Anderson Cooper is next right here on CNN, so stay tuned for that.

In the meantime, thank you very much for joining me this evening and all weekend long. Reporting from Washington, I'm Jim Acosta. I'll see you again next

weekend. Have a great week, everybody. Goodnight.