Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

U.S. House Ousts Speaker In Historic Vote; U.S. Aid For Ukraine In Limbo Amid Chaos In Congress; Studios And Actors Head Back To Bargaining Table. Aired 2-3a ET

Aired October 04, 2023 - 02:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[02:00:32]

ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world and to everyone streaming us on CNN Max. I'm Rosemary Church. Just ahead, Washington enters uncharted territory. For the first time ever a U.S. House Speaker is ousted from office toppled by a revolt within his own party. The chaos in Congress costing more uncertainty of aid to Ukraine with funds running low and the U.S. House now power lies without a speaker.

Plus, Hollywood studios and actors head back to the bargaining table just as a major pain point in negotiations becomes personal for some of Hollywood's biggest stars.

ANNOUNCER: Live from CNN Center, this is CNN Newsroom with Rosemary Church.

CHURCH: Good to have you with us. Well, we begin in Washington where the gears of government have essentially ground to a halt after the unprecedented ousting of U.S. Republican House Speaker Kevin McCarthy. Tuesday's extraordinary vote pushed by hardline conservatives makes McCarthy the first house speaker voted out of the job in U.S. history. His 269 days speakership is now the shortest in more than 140 years.

And the Republican Party has now plunged deeper into chaos. Lawmakers will now need to elect a new speaker but there's no clear alternative who would have the support needed to win the gavel. And McCarthy says he will not try for the speakership again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): I don't regret standing up for choosing governance over grievance. It is my responsibility. It is my job. I do not regret negotiating, or government is designed to find compromise. I don't regret my efforts to build coalitions and find solutions. I was raised to solve problems, not create them. So, I may have lost the vote today. But as I walk out of this chamber, I feel fortunate to observe the American people.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CHURCH: McCarthy was removed from the nation's number three job amid growing infighting in the Republican Party. And just days after McCarthy engineered a last-minute bipartisan effort to avert a government shutdown. Right-wing Congressman Matt Gaetz led the revolt against McCarthy and in explaining his rationale. Gaetz took a phrase right out of Donald Trump's playbook.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): Kevin McCarthy is a feature of the swamp. He has risen to power by collecting special interest money and redistributing that money in exchange for favors. We are breaking the fever now and we should elect the speaker who's better.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: Well, with the house now likely out of session for the rest of the week. Republicans are expected to gather next Tuesday to consider possible candidates to replace McCarthy. A number of names are already being tossed around. Our CNN's Manu Raju reports from Washington.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Republicans struggling to figure out their way forward after today's historic vote kicking out Kevin McCarthy. The first time ever a sitting Speaker of the House ejected from his seat by his own colleagues. This vote coming after eight Republicans sided with all Democrats to kick them out. Kevin McCarthy could only afford to lose four Republicans.

So, he was unable to convince some of those members on the hard right in particular who are unhappy about some of his deal making. Really only two deals in particular. One, to raise the national debt limit to avoid debt default. He had to get a deal with the White House and Senate Democrats in order to get that through. Also, the other one to avoid a government shutdown. That's something that he had cut over the weekend and allowed Democrats to help push that through to avoid a potentially disastrous government shutdown and just to keep the government open for another 45 days.

That was enough to lead Matt Gaetz. The congressman from Florida to lead the charge, seek Kevin McCarthy's ouster. He got the support of seven other Republican colleagues enough to kick out McCarthy. In a startling move that really caught many of his own colleagues by surprise announcing that he will not be a candidate for speaker again. Kevin McCarthy said that he would step aside.

He told me that he could potentially name a -- get behind a successor but he said wouldn't disclose who because he didn't know who would possibly run.

[02:05:07]

Now this all comes as tension is growing among those McCarthy allies going after some of those critics who pushed out Kevin McCarthy, questioning whether they are true conservatives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. AUSTIN SCOTT (R-GA): I think Kevin recognizes that nobody can make their demands and the conference is going to have to figure out how we -- how we deal with, you know, eight people that are here that candidly aren't interested in governing. They're more interested in, you know, grifting.

REP. DERRICK VAN ORDEN (R-WI): Republicans who have been claiming to be fiscal conservatives, just voted with every single Democrat in the House of Representatives. That would be the equivalent of every Republican voting for Nancy Pelosi. That's what they did.

RAJU: Mr. Jordan, how disappointed are you with the -- what happened here in Speaker McCarthy?

REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): I was I thought it was un -- I thought it was unfair to -- unfair to Kevin. Kevin, I think he's done a fine job. And he and I came in together. He's a good man. And he didn't deserve this in my judgment.

RAJU: You -- will you run for speaker?

JORDAN: That's a decision for the conference.

RAJU: So, are you open to it?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: That last comment could be significant. Jim Jordan whose House Judiciary Committee Chairman pointedly declined to say whether he would rule out running for Speaker. He had typically in the past ruled out running for speaker. This is the first time he has indicated that he in fact, will run -- is not ruling out the possibility of running for speaker saying that is a conference decision.

So, we'll see what he ultimately decides. But he couldn't have a race. Kevin Hern who's the chairman of the Republican Study Committee, the largest group of conservatives is open to the idea of running. He's floating his name according to sources that we have spoken to. Also, we'll see what Tom Emmer, the Republican whip decides to do or if you get behind Steve Scalise. He's the current number two.

The House Majority Leader whether he decides to run for speaker. So a lot of questions in this tumultuous moment for the GOP. Can they pick up the pieces? Can they get their agenda going? Can they avoid a government shutdown? All huge questions after Kevin McCarthy becomes the first speaker to meet his fate on the for the house.

Manu Raju, CNN, Capitol Hill.

CHURCH: Lanhee Chen is a research fellow at the Hoover Institution and teaches public policy and law at Stanford University. He joins me now from Switzerland. Good to have you with us.

LANHEE CHEN, RESEARCH FELLOW, HOOVER INSTITUTION: How are you? CHURCH: Very good. So, it is historic, right? A U.S. House Speaker ousted by his own party leaving a vacuum until that post is filled. You're a Republican, what's going on inside your party? And is Matt Gaetz and his band of hard-right conservatives running the show there?

CHEN: Well, it certainly seems as though in the current situation, they were able to effectuate as you noted a historic change. And I do think it's very unfortunate because Kevin McCarthy is probably the only person who could have ultimately cut the deal to keep the government open recently. I think he's really the only person that has the support of the vast majority of Republicans in the House.

It will be extremely interesting to see now who ends up replacing him. But that people like Matt Gaetz, you know, what's clear is that all he's interested in is getting more social media likes, raising money for his -- whatever it is he's doing. And he's not interested in governing. And so, I think it's deeply destructive. I think it's deeply problematic for the Republican party going into an election year.

And so, hopefully, there's some resolution on this soon. But what we saw yesterday was nothing more than spectacle.

CHURCH: So, let's look at what happens next. Who will likely become the next Speaker of the House? And who do you think should take that spot?

CHEN: Well, a number of people have been mentioned. You know, you saw earlier an interview with Jim Jordan. He is somebody who is well- regarded within the Republican conference in the House. He is a conservative Republican who has been chairman of the Judiciary Committee now. It is -- somebody who has been very much involved in the Biden impeachment efforts. He is going to be a leading candidate if he chooses to run.

He is not committed to run yet, but he's an interesting candidate. It'll also be fascinating to see if a more moderate republican ends up getting into the race. Someone like for example, Don Bacon, the congressman from Nebraska. Again, not very well known, but he's known as somebody who works across the aisle. Part of the so-called problem solvers caucus in the U.S. Congress. Moderates working together to find solutions on issues like infrastructure.

So, this could go in one of any number of different ways. But what is absolutely clear is that when Matt Gaetz basically effectuated his mutiny, there was no plan B. There was no hey, here's somebody who we want to be Speaker instead. So, it will be again, very interesting to see how this develops over the next several days.

CHURCH: And of course, the other big point is what happens now to crucial funding for Ukraine.

CHEN: Well, that has always been a subject of significant debate, particularly within the Republican Party. CNN has done some polling recently that shows somewhere between 60 and 70 percent of Republican voters actually oppose more funding for Ukraine. And so, it would not be surprising to see a number of Republican officeholders also take that view. I do think the majority of Republicans in the House want to continue funding Ukraine.

I think they just want to have a fulsome conversation about it. But that is something that the --that the House of Representatives, Republicans and Democrats together are going to have to take up in short order to ensure that the flow of help to Ukraine does not stop and is uninterrupted going into a critical time there.

CHURCH: Yes. And what impact do you think this GOP chaos will likely have on the presidential election next year?

CHEN: Well, the interesting piece of it there is that Donald Trump actually had said yesterday that Republicans need to stop fighting with each other. He was actually trying to be the grown up in the room. But what is absolutely clear is that both sides, whoever ends up coming out of this fight, whether it's the hard right or the more centrist, right, is going to try and carry the mantle of Trump.

They're going to have to say, listen, the reason why you want to select me to be the next speaker is because I have the support of Donald Trump. He is still the most significant voice in this primary contest. He's still the most significant voice in many ways within the Republican Party. And so, I expect that his influence is going to be felt not just in the presidential campaign, but in the Speaker's fight as well.

CHEN: Lanhee Chen, thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate it.

CHEN: Thank you.

CHURCH: And as we have been discussing, the chaos in Washington is already threatening to have a major impact on the war in Ukraine. Congress cut future spending for Kyiv from the stopgap spending bill that averted a government shutdown over the weekend. But the Biden administration is urging lawmakers to restore it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KIRBY, U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL COORDINATOR, STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS: Time is not our friend. We have enough funding authorities to meet Ukraine's battlefields. Battlefield needs for a bit longer. But we need Congress to act to ensure that there is no disruption in our support. A lapse in support for even a short period of time could make all the difference on the battlefield.

Just as critically, such a lapse in support will make Putin believe that he cannot -- he can wait us out and the -- that he can continue to conflict until we and our allies and our partners fold.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: President Biden spoke by phone with a number of allies on Tuesday. European Commission president Ursula von der Leyen said support for Ukraine is unwavering. Lawmakers in the European Parliament have approved a more than $52 billion four-year-aid plan. It does not include military assistance, but is meant to help the country recover from the war.

NATO's top military official is warning that Western allies are running out of ammunition to give to Ukraine. Admiral Rob Bowers says "The bottom of the barrel is now visible" and the industry needs to step up production. Top U.K. defense official James Heappey echoed that warning during the same panel discussion at the annual Warsaw Security Conference. He says Western allies can't stop giving just because stockpiles are getting thin.

And it's not just ammunition that's needed in Ukraine, of course. According to soldiers fighting on the frontlines, Western tanks are also making a major difference on the battlefield. CNN Fred Pleitgen reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): Ukrainian troops trying to push forward on the southern front. Leading the charge, a German-made Leopard 2 main battle tank. Showing the Ukrainians say that they've gotten much better at using Western armor.

PLEITGEN (on camera): But in general, it's more of a fast assault type way of using a tank, I assume.

RUSLAN, SOLDIER, UKRAINIAN ARMED FORCES: Yes, if use it on assault, but not on the minefield.

PLEITGEN (voiceover): It was a major issue when Ukraine first started using tanks like these and its large-scale counter offensive in late June. expected to be an immediate game changer, the Ukrainians now acknowledge losing both Leopards and American-made Bradley's and the vast minefields the Russians had planted. But a tank unit that uses the Leopard 2 tells us they've vastly improved their skills.

We realize what we need to know with this tank, he says, the more you work, the more you understand and you start working automatically.

That soldier whom we can only identify as Barz (ph) even brief Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy on the Leopard 2 saying it easily withstood an explosion from a Russian kamikaze drone.

It's a good tank, he says. It withstood the hits.

[02:15:00]

The crew says Western tanks like this also have better guns, better range finding and night vision capabilities than Russian tanks. Major assets both on the southern and eastern front lines.

PLEITGEN (on camera): The Ukrainian say they've always known that these tanks have exceptional capabilities, but now they say they're increasingly getting used to using them effectively for assault.

PLEITGEN (voiceover): The Southern Front remains the main thrust of Ukraine's counteroffensive. Kyiv releasing this video purporting to show Russian vehicles hit near the Tokmak, leading to massive explosions even though Russia's defense minister claims the Ukrainians haven't managed to break through Moscow's defenses there.

Through active actions, our troops significantly weakened the enemy's combat potential and inflicted serious damage to him, he says.

But the Ukrainians say they are the ones with the momentum. Also, thanks to their improved use of tanks they've received from NATO countries.

Fred Pleitgen, CNN, in Eastern Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHURCH: President Zelenskyy his visit to the front line is the farthest east he's traveled since Russia invaded. He spoke with brigades and commanders to discuss the battlefield situation and assess their needs. The area has seen intense fighting over the past year, but little territory won or lost. President Zelenskyy also visited the city of Kharkiv where he talked about protection from Russian shelling, vital energy infrastructure and efforts to clear land mines and rebuild.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE (through translator): There are many issues that are important for the region, especially in the run up to winter. Especially given the constant Russian terror against Kharkiv, against the region, and the occupiers' attempts to intensify the assaults on our positions. It is extremely important that Kharkiv despite everything does not just hold on, but helps keep our entire East strong.

A proud and bright city that will always be a city of strength for Ukraine and the whole of Europe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: In northern Italy, at least 21 people were killed when a passenger bus careened off a bridge near Venice. Two of the victims were children. Italian authorities say 18 others were injured when the bus broke through the wall of an overpass before falling to the ground and catching on fire. They're working to determine what caused the crash. Venice's mayor says the bus was full of people returning home from work while another official says the vehicle was headed towards a campsite.

A crane lifted the overturned bus from below the bridge. Officials say the bus driver was among those killed.

Police in Baltimore, Maryland say five people have been shot on the campus of Morgan State University. In a news conference just moments ago, officials said four of the victims are students at the school. All five are expected to survive. A Shelter-In-Place order has been lifted even though police say they're still searching for the shooter. Baltimore's mayor says the shooting should be a wakeup call for the entire country.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRANDON SCOTT, BALTIMORE, MARYLAND MAYOR: It reminds us all again that we are dealing with not just here in Baltimore, not just at Morgan State University, but across this country of the United States. A epidemic when it comes to guns and gun violence. And it's time for us to get serious about that, not just at the local level where we've recovered over 2100 guns but at the national level. We have to stop saying not one more, we need action now.

There are things that can be done particularly at the level of Congress that could help stop the next shooting on a campus at a church, at a supermarket from happening and when is enough going to be enough?

CHURCH: Still to come. Helping those left behind after the Exodus. Aid workers are at a deserted city in Nagorno-Karabakh to help those who could not get out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[02:21:08]

CHURCH: Welcome back, everyone. Four former officials from Nagorno- Karabakh have been arrested by Azerbaijani security forces according to state media. They include three former presidents of the breakaway region as well as their speaker of parliament. All four men have been taken to the Azerbaijani capital of Baku. It comes after a prominent Nagorno-Karabakh politician and businessman Ruben Vardanyan was indicted on multiple charges according to Azerbaijani officials.

He has been accused of financing terrorism and participating in the creation and activities of illegal armed groups.

A crisis response leader for the Red Cross tells CNN the main city of Nagorno-Karabakh is nearly completely deserted. Only those unable to travel or with no family stayed behind after the Exodus.

CNN's Scott McLean has details.

SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): The view from the ground shows road after road have abandoned shops and homes, from above what was once a bustling city just two weeks ago now all but cleared out. The Town Square a desolate ghost town filled only with belongings left behind. On the road to Armenia broken down vehicles have been ditched. One still with a trunk full of clothing.

A U.N. mission reported estimates of between only 50 and 1000 ethnic Armenians still inside Nagorno-Karabakh. Everyone else was either afraid or unwilling to live under Azerbaijani rule.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): My nine-year-old son says let's go back to Stepanakert and number cage without any sweets or any food. But at least, you know, home.

MCLEAN (voiceover): The Red Cross is now going around the empty city of what Armenians call says let's go back to Stepanakert looking for the tiny number of people still left.

MARCO SUCCI, INTERNATIONAL COMMITTEE OF THE RED CROSS: Elderly who do cannot move. Bedridden patients who were left with foods, provisions and water just close to the beds in order to be fed and fine for a few days. It's really heartbreaking to see how difficult has been for those living but also how difficult is for those who remain here.

MCLEAN (voiceover): All hold well over 100,000 people have fled to Armenia.

MCLEAN: Is that the desired outcome?

HIKMET HAJIYEV, ADVISER TO AZERBAIJAN PRESIDENT: Actually, no. No way (INAUDIBLE) outcome because Azerbaijan on multiple occasions and through different channels and also publicly stated that we are providing rights and security of Armenian residences in Karabakh. The post conflict stations that are elementals a panic unfortunately, it also happens. And also, what we see is there was an element of manipulation by the illegal regime as he tried also to spread in a panic among the civilian population.

MCLEAN (voiceover): Hajiyev would not unequivocally say that all ethnic Armenians would be entitled to keep or sell their homes in Nagorno-Karabakh. But Azerbaijan has promised and delivered freedom of movement to allow people to leave even for those who took up arms. So, there are some high-profile exceptions, like the former State Minister Ruben Vardanyan arrested on the border.

His children have pleaded for international help securing his release. Meanwhile, the president of the former separatist government Samvel Shahramanyan is still in the region.

MCLEAN: He has not been arrested.

HAJIYEV: He's not (INAUDIBLE) he continues his interaction with appropriate Azerbaijani authorities.

MCLEAN: Is it possible that he will be arrested?

HAJIYEV: I don't know. I don't have an answer to that question, because it's an illegal question. And (INAUDIBLE) should be like an answer for that.

[02:25:01]

MCLEAN (voiceover): Meanwhile in Armenia, the parliament voted to join the International Criminal Court. The hope is to get justice for alleged crimes across the border in Azerbaijan on a piece of land, that very few Armenians still live on.

Scott McLean, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHURCH: Armenia's decision to accept the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court has been condemned by Moscow. It effectively compels officials to arrest Russian President Vladimir Putin if he enters Armenia again. A Kremlin spokesperson on Tuesday said they see the decision as "incorrect." Dmitry Peskov went on to say Moscow still considers Armenia an ally and friendly state and hopes the Russian president won't have to give up visiting in the future.

Well, still to come. Chaos at a crowded mall in Bangkok after a gunman opens fire. What we're learning about the teenagers suspected of carrying out the deadly attack.

And then heavily armed gangs crushing poverty and widespread mistrust.

Coming up, we will look at the challenges a multinational force will face as it tries to restore order to Haiti.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHURCH: Authorities in Bangkok, Thailand say a 14-year-old boy carried out a mass shooting at a busy mall Tuesday. Killing at least two people and wounding five others. This video shows the moment police arrested the suspect after he surrendered. Officials say he has mental health issues and it's not clear how he obtained the gun. Videos show panicked crowds running away from the gunfire.

Witnesses describe the shooting as taking place in just minutes. In the gang-ravaged Caribbean nation of Haiti, people are feeling cautious hope a day after the U.N. Security Council authorized an armed multinational security force to try to restore order. But as CNN's Patrick Oppman reports, it will face daunting challenges battling the gangs, widespread poverty and deep mistrust.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[02:30:00]

PATRICK OPPMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): This rampant gang warfare rising hunger and political instability push Haiti to the brink of collapse. The international community is at long last sending reinforcements to Haiti's outgunned police force.

SERGIO FRANCA DANESE, PERMANENT REPRESENTATIVE OF BRAZIL TO THE UN: The result of the voting is as follows. 13 votes in favor, two abstentions. No votes against.

OPPMANN (voice-over): Following months of increasing violence, on Monday, United Nations Security Council voted to authorize a Multinational Security Support or MSS Force to try to halt the gangs' assault on Haiti that has displaced more than two hundred thousand people.

JEFFREY DELAURENTIS, US ACTING DEPUTY REP. TO THE UN: The resolution makes clear the MSS mission will operate in strict compliance with international law, and include dedicated expertise in anti-gang operations, community oriented policing, children and women's protection, and preventing and responding to sexual and gender based violence. OPPMANN (voice-over): Kenyan troops are expected to lead the force

with one thousand police officers on the ground for a mission that the UN authorized to last for 12 months. Antigua and Barbuda, Jamaica, and the Bahamas are also expected to provide personnel. The US state department has promised over $100 million in aid for the effort. But foreign interventions and US peacekeeping missions to Haiti have a troubled past.

In 2010, UN peacekeepers working Haiti accidentally reintroduced cholera, killing nearly 10 thousand Haitians and infecting an additional eight hundred thousand people. And a report found that UN peacekeepers fathered hundreds of children with Haitian women, and then abandoned them. The UN Secretary General told CNN it was up to the peacekeepers' home countries to make them provide for their children.

ANTONIO GUTERRES, UN SECRETARY-GENERAL: But it has been very tough to make things move, very tough. There's a lot of reluctance. And my appeal to member states is to really make sure that those that have children recognize them and do the best they can to assume their responsibility as fathers.

OPPMANN (voice-over): In the aftermath of natural disasters, the assassination in 2021 of the Haitian president and now out of control gang warfare, Haiti's barely functioning government was forced to plea for the return of a UN led armed force.

JEAN VICTOR GENEUS, HAITIAN FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): Deploying the force as a first stage is essential to create a security environment that is conducive to the normal functioning of institutions. But it's not enough. Socio Economic development must also be taken into account to once and for all address extreme poverty, which is the source of all of our problems.

OPPMANN (voice-over): Any international police force that arrives in Haiti will likely find well armed gangs prepared to fight back, widespread official corruption and a local population that is skeptical of their mission. Help may finally be arriving for Haiti, but it remains unclear if it has come in time. Patrick Oppmann, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHURCH: Over how best to handle bedbug outbreaks in France, has made it to the French parliament. The French prime minister came under fire on Tuesday, from opposition lawmakers over the country's rising bedbug worries. But the French health minister says there is no reason for widespread panic, and the country is not invaded by bedbugs. He added that the spike in bedbugs has nothing to do with immigration. A pest control worker says this situation is not new.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN MENIALEC, ASST. MANAGER, PEST CONTROL PRODUCTS (through translator): With social media we get the impression that there's suddenly a big boom. But it's not sudden. Bedbugs have been returning to Paris, in France and other countries for ten years or so. Mainly in large cities. The big boom is just due to people returning from their vacations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: Experts say the level of bedbug infestation in France is worse than previous years, but it is treatable. And we'll be right back!

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[02:36:18]

CHURCH: In the coming hours, representatives from the Actors' Union, SAG-Aftra and major Hollywood studios will resume negotiations in hopes of ending a monthslong strike. Some of Hollywood's biggest stars have been on strike since July, fighting for a new contract with studios over issues with streaming services, residual pay, the role of artificial intelligence, and more.

Hopes for a compromise between the two sides have risen now that the Writers' Guild of America has ended its own monthslong strike which paralyzed the entertainment industry. And joining me now is Gavin Mueller, an assistant professor of New Media and Digital Culture at the University of Amsterdam. Thank you so much for joining us.

GAVIN MUELLER, ASST. PROFESSOR, NEW MEDIA & DIGITAL CULTURE, UNIV. OF AMSTERDAM: Thank you for having me.

CHURCH: So striking actors, currently in these negotiations over concerns about the use of artificial intelligence, posing a threat to their jobs among other issues that concern them, but high-profile actor Tom Hanks says his image was used without his consent for a dental plan video and the daughter of the late Robin Williams says her father's image is being used without her family's permission causing great distress of course. So what needs to happen here? What guardrails need to be put in place?

MUELLER: Yeah, some of these videos that people are appropriating the likenesses of famous actors for, kind of, ads and other kinds of scams online. That has less to do with the negotiations between actors and the studios, as the studios aren't really involved in this, and has more to do with how AI has been trained and how it functions.

So what we're seeing is these tools can be used to produce what we used to call deep fakes, that can use an actor's likeness or anyone's likeness in a variety of contexts. And in part this is because the systems have been trained on millions and millions of images, videos and sounds, text, all sorts of content online without permission, and there is very little rules governing how they're used. So if we really want to think about how actors like Robin Williams, who's passed, his likeness is being used, or people who are living whose likeness is being --

CHURCH: I think we may have lost, have we lost our guest? Okay, alright. Gavin Mueller who was joining us there. Unfortunately we appear to have lost him. We'll see if we can re-connect. Let's move on for now. And if you've ever wanted to own a piece of Hollywood history, now is your chance. A nearly $15 million auction of some of the most amazing pieces of

movie memorabilia, but the star of the auction, the head of the Star Wars droid, C-3PO, it's being sold complete with lit up eyes and is expected to bring in $1.2 million. It comes from the personal collection of the actor who played the character, Anthony Daniels.

Among other items up for grabs is Leonardo DiCaprio's costume from Titanic, and the coat Marlon Brando wore as Don Vito Corleone in the Godfather. Well, alright, we've been successful in rejoining Gavin Mueller, I don't know what happened there but thank you for joining us. Let's look at this because these actors of course are putting a spotlight on what artificial intelligence could potentially mean for all of us.

[02:50:08]

So how big a threat does AI pose in terms of replacing people, or changing their jobs, or AI images that you touched on of people putting them in compromising positions, causing emotional distress. How do you even control that? And are there any governments across the globe staying on top of this?

MUELLER: Well these technologies are very new. So, but I think governments are looking at them with a very close eye. Particularly the EU which has some of the most advanced rights of privacy and personality usage in the world, are absolutely looking at how these things will go.

But I think that groups like the Screen Actors' Guild and the Writers' Guild have a really important role to play, to shape the conversation as it emerges in these early stages and to really set a tone for what people find ethical, what concerns there are, and what potential, more equitable outcomes could be. But again I think that anybody who does any kind of work that is mediated through computers should be concerned, right?

It's not just going to be writers and actors and other creatives, it's potentially anyone who communicates online will have to face some sort of or come to some sort of reckoning with these tools. Whether it is outright replacement or whether it's an augmentation of someone's work. And we need to make sure that the outcomes, again, that they're equitable for all parties.

CHURCH: Yeah and of course there has also been reaction from authors who don't want their work used to train generative AI tools. How do you control that? Can you?

MUELLER: Well it's, I think, you know, one thing that we've seen is that these AI companies have operated in a, what I would describe as, a reckless way. They took all sorts of copyrighted materials for use in their training sets and they didn't ask permission, they didn't get authorization. And now we have to sort of try and clean up their messes.

And I think that's what we should look at going forward, and thinking about how technology and technology companies are regulated, is to recognize that the way things have gone in the past has been, you know, has not thought about long term consequences. Has not thought about repercussions beyond the tech sector. And that has to be a bigger part of the conversation when we talk about digital innovation. CHURCH: Yeah absolutely, Gavin Mueller. Thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate it.

MUELLER: Thank you for having me.

CHURCH: And thank you for your company. I'm Rosemary Church. WORLD SPORT is up next. Then I'll be back in 15 minutes with more CNN NEWSROOM. Do stick around!

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[02:45:00]

(WORLD SPORT)

[03:00:00]