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IDF Operations from Inside Gaza; U.S. Official Claims Hamas Blocking Foreigners from Leaving Gaza; Demonstrators Hold "Free Palestine" Rally at the White House. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired November 04, 2023 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:01:49]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN ANCHOR: You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington. Good evening.

We are following a number of new developments in the Israel-Hamas war. We've been watching some pictures of multiple explosions lighting up the night sky around Gaza City. CNN's Nic Robertson in Sderot, Israel, witnessed some big secondary explosions and a huge fire in Gaza. You're looking at some of those images right there. That's what his crew witnessed. They witnessed eight rockets as well being fired from Gaza into Israel.

The IDF tells CNN that six of the eight rockets were intercepted by that country's Iron Dome defense system and Israeli police say there are no reports of casualties just yet. But the night is young.

On the diplomatic front, U.S. Secretary of State Tony Blinken has wrapped up his meeting with Arab leaders in Jordan. Blinken stressed support for Israel to implement humanitarian pauses in the fighting in Gaza while short of a ceasefire demanded by Arab countries and international aid agencies.

In Tel Aviv, the family of Hamas hostages held a rally in front of Israel's military headquarters. Organizers say it was not an antigovernment protest but rather a call for Israel to do more to secure the hostages' released.

And CNN was part of the first group of foreign press granted access to Israeli forces inside Gaza. Journalists embedded with the IDF in Gaza operate under the observation, we should note, of Israel commanders in the field and may not move around unaccompanied within the Gaza Strip, and to get this kind of access, news outlets must submit all materials and footage to the Israeli military before it can be published.

CNN, we should note, has agreed to these terms in order to provide a limited window into Israel's operations in Gaza. And CNN's Jeremy Diamond was there.

Jeremy, some of the footage that you have obtained is extraordinary. It really shows what is happening on the ground. Something we haven't really had a window into up until the point. Tell us what you're seeing. JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Jim. We were the

first foreign journalists to get into Gaza since this war began and it comes a week after Israel launched this ground offensive. Israeli forces, we joined up with them on the Israeli side of the border, went into an armored personnel carrier. And about 20 minutes later, we found ourselves at an Israeli military position about one kilometer inside the Gaza Strip. This position was overlooking Gaza City.

And there was active fighting happening between Hamas militants and Israeli forces, about 100 meters away from our position. We could hear small arms fire, rockets, as well as antimissile systems being deployed. All of this as Israeli forces in the area were trying to work to divide the northern part of Gaza from the southern part.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DIAMOND (voice-over): At this Israeli military post on the outskirts of Gaza City, the fighting is fierce.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's OK. It's us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

LT. COL. GILAD PASTERNAK, 828TH BRIGADE ISRAEL DEFENSE FORCES: The center of the Gaza Strip, the IDF soldiers are fighting against the militants. They are using all the houses that they can in order to harm and to get to the IDF soldiers.

DIAMOND: One week to its ground offensive, Israel's military says it has encircled Gaza City from posts like this.

[19:05:03]

(On-camera): We're right now at this Israeli military post inside the Gaza Strip about one kilometer inside of Gaza. Gaza City is just this way. And as you can hear behind me, there is a lot of ongoing fighting between Israeli forces and Hamas militants. What they are trying to do right now is to flank the Hamas positions. That's what the battalion commander just told me. And all of this intended to try and cut off Gaza City from the southern part of the strip as Israeli forces also move in from the north.

(Voice-over): CNN was part of a small group of reporters given access to Israeli forces inside Gaza for the first time since the outbreak of the war, entering Gaza using the same roads Hamas militants used to carry out their brutal attack on October 7th.

PASTERNAK: And today we're going on the exact same roads, the same neighborhoods, to their assembly area, to their trucks, in order to go there and be able to get them pay the price and to eliminate the Hamas organization that held this attack on the state of Israel.

DIAMOND (on-camera): The Israeli military is taking us into Gaza. We are inside an armored personnel carrier right now. We're crossing into Gaza. (INAUDIBLE) the southern point of Gaza City. (Voice-over): But still, Israeli forces face the danger of ambush from

underground tunnels.

PASTERNAK: And over there, over there, and inside the neighborhood also.

DIAMOND (on-camera): So in just this area there are at least three tunnels.

PASTERNAK: I believe at least, yes.

DIAMOND (voice-over): Israel says many of those tunnels lie below residential buildings. And for weeks it has relentlessly bombed those targets. Killing and injuring thousands of civilians in the process.

The forces here say they are now working to secure a humanitarian corridor to help civilians flee the heaviest fighting.

PASTERNAK: This is a huge objective for the brigade, the battalion right here. The population will be able to go from the north to the south surely and (INAUDIBLE) in order to get the IDF to do what they intend to do, in order to do (INAUDIBLE) Hamas.

DIAMOND: For these soldiers, achieving that goal may see them deployed into Gaza City where a prospect of deadly urban combat awaits.

PASTERNAK: The IDF will be here as long as it takes. Weeks, months, years, until it made sure that Israel is safe and secured for the long time. If we need to get inside Gaza house by house, it's exactly what's going to happen.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DIAMOND: And Jim, the Israeli commanders on the ground told me that they have outposts like this one all along the six-kilometer stretch just south of Gaza City between the Mediterranean Sea and Gaza's border with Israel. But while they may have control of that line of contact between northern and southern Gaza, they certainly know that they don't have control of what is underground.

And that is those dozens of miles of Hamas tunnels below ground that Hamas fighter can use to evade Israeli forces, but also to ambush them. We know that there have already been several instances of fighters ambushing Israeli fighters. So far 29 Israeli soldiers have been killed in action since the start of this offensive -- Jim.

ACOSTA: All right, Jeremy Diamond, with some extraordinary footage for us. Jeremy, thank you for all the reporting that you're doing. We appreciate it.

In the meantime, a U.S. official says Hamas is blocking foreign nationals including Americans from leaving Gaza for Egypt through the Rafah crossing. Hamas is demanding that Israeli guarantee that ambulances from Gaza can reach that crossing.

CNN's Melissa Bell is in Cairo for us. Melissa, what can we expect in the coming hours?

MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What we expect, Jim, is those negotiations to pick up again. These were the negotiations between Hamas, Israel, Egypt, facilitated by Qatar and in coordination with the United States that had been going on for several weeks. They led to that breakthrough last Tuesday that have allowed the foreign and dual national civilians to begin leaving Rafah. That didn't happen. They left in several hundreds, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday.

Then today that stopped. Why? Because we understand all this fresh demand on the part of Hamas that follows the bombing of the Al-Shifa Hospital yesterday. That IDF claimed strike on what is Gaza's largest hospital hitting ambulances as it did lead we understand to this fresh demand. Essentially what Hamas had done from the start is in order to allow foreign nationals to leave Gaza it has insisted that the most severely wounded Palestinians needed to be able to get out as well.

And indeed, Jim, that is what happened. On Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, you saw hundreds of foreign national leave. You also saw dozens of wounded Palestinians. What Palestinians say, authorities inside the Gaza Strip and at the Al-Shifa hospital is that that convoy of ambulances that were struck on 48 was in fact carrying the wounded and heading towards Rafah.

[19:10:07]

The ICRC has confirmed that it had been notified about a convoy. It's now saying that for that deal to start again, for that agreement to pick up again, it wants those ambulances to be able to get safe passage down to the Gaza Strip. The trouble is that it's very difficult to see how that can be made to happen. There is nowhere safe inside Gaza. This is something that we've seen day and day out.

We've been hearing from David Satterfield today who is the U.S. envoy to the Middle East saying that they urgently need to find a system whereby aid workers can go about their work. For the time being it's very difficult to see how that's going to happen. The result is that the 700 foreign nationals, including 400 Americans who had been due to get out through the Rafah crossing today, are still stuck on the other side, Jim, and with very little prospect that a fresh deal will be found any time soon.

ACOSTA: Yes. All right. Melissa Bell, thank you very much. There's going to be a lot of this obviously in the days to come. We appreciate it, Melissa. Thank you.

Let's talk some more about the diplomacy surrounding the Israel-Gaza conflict. Joining us now, Joel Rubin, a former deputy assistant secretary of state under President Obama.

Joel, thanks very much for being here. We appreciate it. Let's start with Secretary of State Tony Blinken. His meeting with the Arab leaders in Jordan earlier today, he stopped short of calling for a cease-fire. That's what they want. He's been calling for a humanitarian pauses. The Israelis don't want humanitarian pauses unless there are hostages that are released. This is going to be some tough sledding ahead from a diplomatic standpoint. Yes.

JOEL RUBIN, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: Very tough diplomacy right now. And Secretary Blinken is demonstrating what it means to roll up the sleeves and get into the hard work and have these hard conversations. There's no magic bullet clearly to fixing this solution at all. And by being there, and being present, and listening to our allies, and we have multiple allies across the region, he is beginning to construct a process and a program.

And we hear that with the kinds of discussions about how to watch ambulances leaving. Watch individuals leaving through the Rafah border. Watch the humanitarian assistance that comes in. Trying to build up some confidence that while not every request is being met, the maximum that there are processes moving forward. And -- but this is tough. This is really tough diplomacy right now that the secretary is engaged in.

ACOSTA: And I was talking to Mark Regev earlier on on this program and he was essentially saying no, the Israelis are not interested in a pause unless we see some hostages come out. And I mean, that position is certainly understandable. But when you put that next to what we've been seeing in the last 24 to 48 hours, civilians feeling the impact of the Israeli strikes in Gaza. Just today, a U.N. school that is used to take care of refugees was struck. And CNN obtained images of the casualties that took place there. That is going to make things even more difficult diplomatically speaking.

RUBIN: You're right. Look, every day that goes on, goes forward, there are heartbreaking images of civilians being killed. And the reality is that in this war, there are competing objectives obviously. Israel does want to neutralize Hamas. Israel does want to get hostages out. The United States wants to get hostages out. What are the tools for doing that? Hamas is not coming to the table providing names.

They're not allowing the Red Cross in to provide review and sharing information with the families. What are the tools available to get these hostages out? And so I think the leverage point that the question of a humanitarian pause for getting people out, that's the kind of leverage that needs to be enacted. Now Secretary Blinken can lean on that and engage with Qatar and Egypt and our allies in the Arab world, who have access into Hamas, all the better.

But right now there's a question of getting the hostages out and not having and be harmed while an ongoing offensive is underway to neutralize Hamas. It's incredibly difficult. So I think that's why we're seeing the delay in an agreement. But that said, it's not as if Israel is not allowing goods in. So while they may not publicly declare pauses, they are allowing for materials to get in.

ACOSTA: But what about the impact on support inside the United States for what Israel is doing? As these images are coming out. As you're seeing a school, for example, being hit. The Israelis say they're still looking into what precisely took place and why that happened. But, you know, you look at the political pressure that is happening over at the White House right now. The president is feeling it. You have Democrats in the Arab American community saying I supported Joe Biden last time around. I may not do that this time around. All of that pressure has to be coming to bear at this point.

RUBIN: I mean, it's real. And the Democratic Party, as a card-carrying member of the Democratic Party I'm engaged in conversations across the party with folks who are making the pitch.

[19:15:07]

And the pitch is real. And there's deep concern that right now the needs of the Palestinian civilians are not being met. But that is not because President Biden is not advocating for it. President Biden put in money for humanitarian assistance. He actually put in money for the supplemental that the House has decided to condition or actually they stripped out, excuse me, the Palestinian aid and conditioned the aid to Israel.

So the tools available to the president are getting shrunk. But without a doubt the White House understands that there is domestic political challenge but then that metastasizes as well into the kind of Islamophobia and antisemitism that we're now seeing in the streets as well. And I think for the United States at this moment as the leader in the region, as the only entity, the only country that can truly get the parties together, it's incumbent for us to be out there as Secretary Blinken is, and trying to get all of our allies to lean in.

And the reality is that this war is going to be ongoing for quite some time and there have to be continual measures to try to get the support to the Palestinians while the Israelis feel comfortable that they are getting rid of Hamas as a threat in their southern border.

ACOSTA: And what do you think has to be said to Netanyahu, and to his top advisers privately in a moment like this? We saw Tony Blinken over there in this latest visit, you know, saying the things obviously that the Israelis want to hear. The U.S. stands shoulder to shoulder with Israel. Blinken made it very clear. The administration is not in favor of a ceasefire. They're not calling for something like that because as he said it would allow Hamas to reconstitute.

RUBIN: Right.

ACOSTA: Inflict more damage on the Israelis. But at the same time we know, and you know this, privately there are other discussions going on behind the scenes.

RUBIN: Well, Jim, there's two audiences in Israel. There's the Israeli public and then there's the private, behind-the-scenes government leaders. And the Israeli public is dismayed by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Not sure if you (INAUDIBLE) this.

ACOSTA: Right.

RUBIN: His poll numbers have tanked. There is no confidence in his leadership right now across the board in Israel. That said, Israelis are rallying behind the flag and they are fighting for the survival of their state. I think for Secretary Blinken he has to remind the prime minister that he has an obligation for Israel over time to map out a vision. You know, what is the plan for the day after? What is the goal for reconciling with the Palestinians?

The United States, the president has been putting forward that goal. It's called a two-state solution. It's called allowing the Palestinians to have political self-determination. And that is crucial. And those are the kinds of messages behind the scenes that the secretary can push while also saying we have your back militarily, supporting you, and to the Israeli public, the United States has your back and that, of course, gives President Biden a lot of leverage as he pushes. And I think he'll continue to push and he has the higher ground on that.

ACOSTA: It's such an enormously complicated and difficult issue. We heard your old boss, Barack Obama, saying this earlier today in a message. How complicated this issue is, trying to remind people on all sides, you've got to understand the complexities of all of this.

RUBIN: Right.

ACOSTA: And navigating it. Joel Rubin, thank you very much for your time. We appreciate it.

RUBIN: Thanks, Jim.

ACOSTA: Coming up, we have seen large protests worldwide today calling for a cease-fire in Gaza including right here in Washington. The demonstrators' message to Biden, that is just ahead.

Plus, the leader of Hezbollah made fiery comments this week. What experts say they heard in his speech -- his first speech since the October 7th attack. That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:22:30]

ACOSTA: Right now in Hamburg, Germany, all flights to and from the airport there have been canceled because of a family -- what's been called a family hostage crisis. Officials say a 35-year-old man smashed through security with his car and parked underneath an airplane. The driver is still in his car with his 4-year-old daughter and police are trying to end this hostage situation. His wife had previously warned the police that her child was missing.

The people who were on board the plane that he parked underneath were able to safely depart on a jet bridge. And we will continue to monitor all of this and bring you the latest as it comes in here at CNN.

In the meantime, pro-Palestinian demonstrators took to the streets in major cities around the world today. In London and Berlin, thousands rallied to demand an immediate cease-fire in Gaza.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a bloodshed. And the Israelis are targeting hospitals, schools and you can't -- we can't stand by and just watch this. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We can only hope. We just have to keep going

until they do. There's power in people. There's so many people here. And we just have to keep going until they do listen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: The protests today in Trafalgar Square marked the third consecutive weekend of pro-Palestinian rallies in London. Meanwhile, back here in Washington, demonstrators marched on the nation's capital demanding an immediate cease-fire and the end of U.S. military aid to Israel.

CNN's Gabe Cohen reports from outside the White House where demonstrators were gathered earlier this evening.

GABE COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, thousands of protesters marched through Washington and ended up here at the White House after that huge rally just a few blocks away at Freedom Plaza. Hours of speakers who called for an end to the bombings and the ground operations in Gaza. But also, demanding that the White House and President Joe Biden called for a cease-fire, and end its unequivocal support for Israel, saying that it could be a serious political issue for the president in 2024 if he does not call for that cease-fire.

Here's what some of those protesters told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My message to President Biden is I voted for you and I regret it.

COHEN: Will you vote for him in 2024?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not going to vote for him. I'm not going to vote for him because he's supporting Israel. He's asking for $14 billion to do more killing of the Palestinian people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[19:25:04]

COHEN: Now organizers told me they hoped this would be the largest pre-Palestinian rally in U.S. history. And while I can't confirm that, I can tell you it's the largest one I have seen here in Washington since the war began last month -- Jim.

ACOSTA: All right, Gabe Cohen. Thanks very much for that report.

Still ahead, Hezbollah's leader spoke this week about the October 7th terrorist attack praising it and saying America is responsible for the war in Gaza. Western leaders are deciphering his words to try to predict the group's next actions. That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) ACOSTA: The IDF says it will allow people in Gaza to move south on specified streets tomorrow. They say that's despite their troops coming under fire today while trying to secure safe passage for civilians. It's unclear how widely Israel's message will be received because of electricity and internet outages.

[19:30:00]

Israel has been repeatedly telling residents in Gaza to move south to avoid being caught up in the war. Of course, we will stay on top of that, bring you the latest as it comes in.

In the meantime, the leader of Hezbollah in Lebanon has praised the October 7th attacks on Israel and warned the Israel-Hamas war could expand into a regional conflict. Hezbollah is an Iran-backed Islamist movement that holds actual power with 13 seats in Lebanon's parliament.

And joining us to discuss, Bruce Hoffman, he is a senior fellow for counterterrorism at the Council on Foreign Relations; professor at Georgetown University.

Bruce, I mean, your sense as to what you heard from Nasrallah when he made those comments. I mean, there was a lot of expectations that he was really going to try to ignite things and make life even more difficult for the Israelis, but it sounds as though, maybe he's backed off a little bit.

What's your sense of it?

BRUCE HOFFMAN, SENIOR FELLOW FOR COUNTERTERRORISM, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS.: Absolutely right. For Nasrallah, it was a remarkably noncommittal and almost equivocal speech, even though it lasted for 90 minutes.

But basically, he was saying Hamas started this war, it did not consult with Hezbollah. It's Hamas' fight that Hezbollah will intervene if necessary. But basically, he was backing off any commitment of opening up a second front, which is what happened after all, in 2006, when a war between Israel and Hamas and Gaza precipitated a war in the north and an invasion of South Lebanon.

ACOSTA: And so why do you suppose he is saying what he is saying right now?

HOFFMAN: I think the main reason is Iran is restraining him.

Now, Hezbollah in 2006 had an arsenal of about 15,000 rockets and missiles, fired roughly a third of them it Israel, and afterwards, it was rebuked by Tehran for wasting the missiles. Those missiles are there if and when Israel and perhaps the United States targets Iran's nuclear facilities.

Hezbollah now has 10 times that number, 150,000, but it is very clear they are holding those in reserve for when they're really needed and that is to say, when Iran if and when it is ever attacked. ACOSTA: And I mean, President Biden was asked about all of this, and

he warned Hezbollah and Iran "Don't." How much is that message received inside Hezbollah inside Iran, do you think? Do they take that kind of a warning seriously?

HOFFMAN: Actually, I think they do because Lebanon is in very dire economic and political disarray. They don't need anything else that's going to shatter what is after all, Hezbollah's tenuous control through its proxies of the Lebanese government.

Certainly, Iran is in great straits right now. Lots of protests continuing still over the murder of the young woman a year ago because of her headscarf, economic travails, as well.

So at the moment, Iran also doesn't want to provoke a larger regional war that brings Lebanon or them into it, but behind the scenes, Iran is going to encourage its proxies like Hezbollah, to lob missiles, to fire shots, to keep active, but not provoke, they hope, an escalation.

ACOSTA: Let me ask you a little bit about what's going on inside of Gaza. One of our correspondents, Jeremy Diamond, was granted access to be on the ground with IDF forces operating inside of Gaza, and it sounds as though the Israelis are moving in the direction of another stage in all of this, which is they want to get at those tunnels, which is obviously highly important from a counterterrorism standpoint.

How critical is that mission going to be for the Israelis, and how costly might it be?

HOFFMAN: Well, it's absolutely critical because Hamas, in essence, functions from those tunnels, there's at least thirteen to fifteen hundred miles of tunnels beneath Gaza. Their weapons are stored there. They have hospitals and operating theatres, their command centers.

So if Israel is really serious about fulfilling its pledge of destroying Hamas, it really has to come to grips with the tunnels, and what the IDF, I think is trying to do now is, and they've succeeded in cutting Gaza in half, and they will isolate got Gaza City, which is the nerve center of Hamas' rule, and hopefully it will be helpful from their point of view to choke Hamas off without necessarily having to go into those tunnels.

ACOSTA: And what about these costly strikes that are taking place hitting civilians inside of Gaza? We talked to a couple of spokespersons for the Israeli government during this program today. They continue to maintain that they're doing all that they can to avoid civilian casualties, but we saw a UN school was hit inside Gaza earlier today. There were casualties. CNN witnessed some of those casualties firsthand.

What about that old question that we heard raised by Don Rumsfeld during the war on terror war in Iraq? Are we creating more terrorists than we're killing?

HOFFMAN: I think from Israel's point of view, their preeminent priority is to destroy Hamas because they realize if they don't, they will be vulnerable to another attack that could be far more serious, and this one was sufficiently serious.

So they are using, I think, very powerful munitions for want of a better term, bunker busters that they are not targeting --

[19:35:02]

ACOSTA: The craters that we are seeing in some of the videos, it is just extraordinary.

HOFFMAN: Precisely, because that's the point. They are not targeting the schools or the apartment buildings. I'm not saying that excuses necessarily the innocent civilians who die. They are targeting the tunnels.

ACOSTA: They are trying to get down into those tunnels.

HOFFMAN: Precisely, and that's why you see these huge craters?

ACOSTA: And how much of that can the Israelis continue to do from a strategic standpoint? At some point, you have to be there and go tunnel by tunnel, house by house?

HOFFMAN: Well, in 2008-2009, they stayed in Gaza for 50 days. I'm not sure they can stay that long when you have 360,000 reservists mobilized. That's going to begin to impact Israel's economy. So there will come a point that they will have to disengage. But before then, they want to inflict the maximum damage possible in that span of time.

ACOSTA: Yes. All right, Bruce Hoffman, thank you very much for your time. Appreciate it.

HOFFMAN: You're very welcome.

ACOSTA: Thanks for coming on.

Coming up, prosecutors say a nurse in Pennsylvania admitted to trying to kill 19 patients -- 19 patients in her care. Details on this very disturbing story is just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:40:05]

ACOSTA: A shocking new development in the case of a Pennsylvania nurse charged in May over the deaths of two nursing home patients, and the hospitalization of a third. This week, according to the Pennsylvania Attorney General's Office, former nurse Heather Pressdee is now confessing to trying to kill 19 people by injecting them with excessive amounts of insulin. According to officials, 17 patients who were in her care died.

The complaint against the former nurse reads: "Pressdee would often work the medication cart, administer insulin during the night shift when staffing was lowest and the facility was quiet." And former FBI senior profiler Mary Ellen O'Toole joins us now.

What a wild case. What do you think about these new developments, Mary Ellen?

It's just -- it is remarkable that this nurse, if all the facts are true, and the allegations are true, she was able to get away with all this.

MARY ELLEN O'TOOLE, RETIRED FBI SPECIAL AGENT PROFILER: Yes, it really is pretty stunning, and there has probably even additional cases that she will not be charged with because they don't have the evidence to charge her with.

But I mean, the fact that she was able to go through 11 different facilities, and engage in this behavior for at least five years, that in and of itself, is also very stunning.

ACOSTA: Right, and apparently, some of her co-workers, staff members at one of the five care facilities where she worked suspected she was killing patients. And how does this -- I mean, how does somebody get away with something like this?

O'TOOLE: Well, there are a couple of things we know anecdotally, with people that engage in this behavior at health facilities, and one of the things that they do is they do their best to cover their tracks. So you have someone in this case that was working the night shift, when there weren't a lot of other nurses, and other people around, so they were able to get away with it.

Once the patient got sick or died, and they were taken to the hospital, and in the majority of the cases, they were not able to really determine the cause of death, and she also participated in the resuscitation of some of her patients.

So her own behavior was a behavior that allowed her to not be suspected by everybody that she worked with. But nonetheless, I think one of the most important things is that she worked in facilities where it is hard to hire people. And so to let somebody go, they had to replace her, and I think she realized that and was able to be hired over and over again in spite of previous behavior.

ACOSTA: Right. I mean, that's a nurse, a person who chose a profession where you care for sick people. These are people that we trust. We put our lives in their hands. Anybody who has been in a hospital, been in the care of an amazing nurse, you take your hat off to them, no question about it, sometimes a thankless job.

What do you think triggers somebody to get into this kind of insanely homicidal behavior?

O'TOOLE: Sure, I think the choice of an occupation, certainly in these kinds of cases is important. And so we know that we have crimes like this all over the world. They are predominantly women.

But before they go into these professions, it looks like there are other issues in their lives that draw them to this kind of behavior. And one of the things particularly present in this individual's life was a preoccupation with death and dying, according to evidence that was uncovered in her text phones or texts on her telephone.

She had communicated with her mom and other people that she would get angry at people at restaurants and other locations and her response was, "Well, I just want to kill them. I just want to give them -- I'm going to give them pillow therapy."

So that preoccupation with hurting people, because of maybe a perceived injustice or something that they said to her or the way that they looked at her didn't just start five years ago.

So I think that preoccupation with wanting to annihilate people is really pretty significant, and when you choose a profession that allows you to be around vulnerable people, you can live that out.

ACOSTA: And just in some of these cases here, are the most vulnerable people that you can think of. It's just shocking.

O'TOOLE: Yes.

ACOSTA: Mary Ellen O'Toole, when we saw that story, we had to get your thoughts on it.

Thank you so much. Really appreciate your time, as always. We appreciate it.

O'TOOLE: You're welcome.

ACOSTA: Thank you.

Still ahead, how artificial intelligence is spreading false information and conspiracy theories on a website where millions get their news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:49:17]

ACOSTA: If you've been on Microsoft's homepage lately, you may have noticed some interesting headlines from a conspiracy theory that the latest surge in COVID-19 is being orchestrated by the Democratic Party, of course, that's not true -- to an obituary calling a late NBA player, useless.

Our Donie O'Sullivan has been looking into why and Donie, a lot of this comes down to company decisions on artificial intelligence. Artificial intelligence is just now seeping into everything.

DONIE O' SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

ACOSTA: And causing chaos, it seems.

O'SULLIVAN: Yes, and nowhere else -- nowhere more so than then Microsoft apparently. I think a lot of people will say, Microsoft News, but hundreds of millions of people get their news from Microsoft because if you buy a PC, a computer, that's your homepage, very often and there's new there.

Up until 2018, Microsoft had 800 journalists working for them. Now all of that work is mostly done by AI. Have a look.

ACOSTA: Wow.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FERRIS KAWAR, MICROSOFT USER: It felt like I was standing in line at the grocery store reading a "National Enquirer," you know, front page.

O'SULLIVAN (voice over): Ferris Kawar is talking about Microsoft's homepage, also known as msn.com. It's among the top visited news websites in the US and around the world.

RYN PFEUFFER, FORMER CONTRACTED EDITOR, MICROSOFT: It's absolutely a huge site. It's installed on a lot of machines that come with Windows software on it so people sometimes get that as a default as their news source.

O'SULLIVAN (voice over): But over the last few months, bizarre and false stories have begun appearing on msn.com. False claims that President Biden fell asleep during a moment of silence after the Maui wildfire, an obituary that called a late NBA player useless, and a false story claiming a California politician had resigned after attack by Elon Musk.

PFEUFFER: You had to be responsible in what you put on the site, because so many people would read it and could be swayed by it.

O'SULLIVAN (voice over): Ryn Pfeuffer was a contracted editor at msn.com. Her job involves selecting stories from news outlets across the world to feature on Microsoft's site. She was one of more than 800 editors employed by Microsoft as of 2018.

PFEUFFER: I was there on and off for eight years, before I got laid off, to be replaced by AI.

O'SULLIVAN (voice over): But in 2020, Ryn and her colleagues were told they were losing their jobs. CNN obtained a recording of the call announcing the layoffs.

Editors at Microsoft they were told, we're being replaced by AI automation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's kind of full steam ahead for automating all of the content.

O'SULLIVAN (voice over): Did you ever think you'd have a situation where you'd be replaced by AI?

PFEUFFER: No. Not in a million years, but here we are.

O'SULLIVAN (voice over): MSN has agreements with major news organizations, including CNN that allows it to put their reporting on its site, but recently, fringe right-wing sites have been featured prominently on its homepage, including headlines like these attacking President Biden.

PFEUFFER: Seeing what I'm seeing here with MSN is just scary to me. Like that can translate to tangible votes.

KAWAR: If they were going to have a front page that is all about news, then they should take that responsibility seriously and understand that it has implications for society.

O'SULLIVAN (voice over): After his computer software updated, Ferris Kawar's default homepage change to Microsoft. That's when he began to notice something strange.

KAWAR: I think Microsoft is a fairly trustworthy company. I don't think of them as political in any way. The content that was being pushed definitely skewed to the right.

PFEUFFER: Bidenomics prove Joe Biden is a buffoon, from American Insider. Yes. That would not have been there before.

O'SULLIVAN (voice over): Ryn Pfeuffer said she believes this is all happening because Microsoft replaced editors with AI.

PFEUFFER: I am still appalled that they have these websites that seem like fronts, like, but are not legit news sources, pumping out this information on the homepage.

BRAD SMITH, PRESIDENT, MICROSOFT: Let's keep AI under the control of people. It needs to be safe.

O'SULLIVAN (voice over): But Microsoft won't say how many people it has in control of its news AI.

Ryn said the editors who worked on her team who are hired through a subcontractor were all laid off.

KAWAR: What's the most important thing that our society needs to know at this point in our history, where an editor, a human can make those determinations, and it really concerns me that AI is being used.

O'SULLIVAN (voice over): On Tuesday, "The Guardian" newspaper wrote to Microsoft president, Brad Smith, to express its concerns about Microsoft's use of AI.

Microsoft published a story from "The Guardian" about Lilie James, a 21-year-old who was found dead in Sydney, Australia. Microsoft then published an AI-generated poll next to the story asking readers, what do you think is the reason behind the woman's death?

"The Guardian" CEO wrote in the letter: "Not only is this sort of application potentially distressing for the family of the individual who is the subject of the story, it is also deeply damaging to 'The Guardian's' hard-won reputation for trusted sensitive journalism." A day later, Microsoft said it had launched an investigation and shut

off its AI polling feature. A spokesperson told CNN that in 2021, the company shifted to a system that picks stories by an algorithm. The spokesperson said: "We are committed to addressing the recent issue of low quality articles contributed to the feed and are working closely with our content partners to identify and address issues to ensure they are meeting our standards."

PFEUFFER: A lot of people don't dig deep and do their own homework to fact check anything or they take things at face value. There is far too much of that and so they read this and they take it as the factual truth.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[19:55:01]

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): So Jim as you can see there, Microsoft did not make a person available to speak to us.

ACOSTA: I noticed that.

O'SULLIVAN: Brad Smith, Microsoft's president really is kind of on the lecture circuit around the world telling people how they should be responsible with AI, but as we can see here, Microsoft's own AI is messing up the news and potentially as we go into election year, hundreds of millions of people, tens of millions of Americans still go to this website daily.

ACOSTA: Yes.

O'SULLIVAN: It could, you know, potentially play into the election.

ACOSTA: And not to put a technical term on it, but it seems like AI generates a lot of crap.

O'SULLIVAN: A lot of crap. Hopefully, our jobs are safe for a while. AI is not replacing all the journalists just yet.

ACOSTA: All right, we hope. Tony, great story. Thanks so much. Good to see a person. Thanks a lot.

Tonight, in the meantime, we are seeing a new round of massive explosions near the Israel Gaza border. We'll take you back to the region for the very latest, that's just ahead.

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