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Recent Polls Show Trump Leading Biden in Key States; Rep. Brendan Boyle (D-PA) is Interviewed Regarding Trump Leading in the Polls Against President Biden; Rep. Tlaib Blames Biden for Genocide in Gaza; Trump to Takes the Stand in New York Civil Fraud Trial; U.S. Secretary of State Blinken Travels to the Middle East. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired November 05, 2023 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: You are live in the "CNN Newsroom." I'm Jim Acosta in Washington. Good evening. We begin with a troubling outlook for President Biden. Exactly one year out from the 2024 election, a new set of polls from the "New York Times" and Sienna College show Biden trailing former president, Donald Trump, in hypothetical matchups in four key swing states.

Tomorrow, Trump is set to take the stand in a high stakes civil fraud trial that could help decide the fate of his business empire in New York. These political and legal headwinds happening at the same time as President Biden is trying to strike a balance in the war between Israel and Hamas, pushing for a humanitarian pause.

And this just into CNN. We're learning tonight that CIA Director Bill Burns is traveling to the Middle East to meet with multiple leaders in that region as negotiations over hostages taken by Hamas continue. And while the White House continues to focus on the crisis in the Middle East, the Biden campaign is responding to this latest polling.

CNN White House reporter Priscilla Alvarez is in Rehoboth Beach, Delaware for us. Priscilla, help us break down the numbers and what's the response from Bidenworld?

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, Jim, they are downplaying this poll saying that we're still a year out from the election, but it does paint a grim outlook as the president fans out across the country to relay his message on the economy and Bidenomics, but also facing headwinds in doing just tha. And as rifts are exposed as these conflicts unfold in Israel and Ukraine.

Now, these four key swing states, all four, by the way, that President Biden won in 2020, but is now trailing behind former President Donald Trump in this hypothetical matchup. You have Nevada. Trump is at 52 percent to Biden's 41 percent. Georgia, Trump at 49 percent to Biden's 43 percent. Arizona, Trump at 49 percent to Biden's 44 percent. And in Michigan, Trump at 48 percent to Biden's 43 percent.

Now, there's a margin of error here of a plus minus 4.4 to 4.5 points. But it is striking, Jim, when you consider, too, that the former president is facing a series of criminal charges since he left office, and as again, the president tries to sell the American people on the economy and his policies. And in a statement, the campaign said the following, quote, "President Biden's campaign is hard at work reaching and mobilizing our diverse winning coalition of voters one year out on the choice between our winning popular agenda and MAGA Republicans on popular extremism will win in 2024 by putting our heads down and doing the work, not by fretting about a poll."

Now, the campaign also points to the '22 midterm elections when there was a grim outlook ahead of that and Democrats did better than expected, but what is clear Jim from this snapshot is that it is still a long road ahead for this campaign and for the president as he wrestles with a number of issues on the domestic front and abroad. Jim?

ACOSTA: All right. Certainly, some jitters out there in the party. Priscilla Alvarez, thank you very much. Appreciate that. Let's discuss more now with Democratic Congressman Brendan Boyle of Pennsylvania. He's the Ranking Member of the House Budget Committee and a member of the Congressional Progressive Caucus.

Congressman, great to see you. Thanks for being here. I know the Eagles are on right now, so you're making a huge sacrifice coming on with us. We appreciate that. What's your reaction when you see these poll numbers?

REP. BRENDAN BOYLE (D-PA): I am so confident of the Eagles victory, I decided to spend my time here on CNN with you, Jim. But as far as the poll numbers, you know, I'll say the same thing. If a poll showed Biden up by 10 or down by 10, reality is this is going to be a very close election. Five of the last six presidential elections have been decided by just a few points or fewer. I fully expect the 2024 election will probably come down to just one or two points in about five states, including my own state, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

Right now, polls are a poor indicator. Let's not forget that at this exact point in their cycle, Ronald Reagan, Barack Obama, and Bill Clinton were all losing reelection one year out in the polls. They all went on to win re-election. So, the reality is we've seen this before. And in the end, 2024, it looks like we'll come down to a choice, a choice between President Biden's positive record and the absolute dysfunction and circus of Donald Trump.

[17:05:00]

ACOSTA: But the stakes are higher this time around. Isn't that right, Congressman? I mean, Barack Obama, Ronald Reagan, they were not facing Donald Trump.

BOYLE: There's no question that Donald Trump represents an existential threat to American democracy. I would in no way compare previous Republican nominees like John McCain or Mitt Romney or Ronald Reagan to the sort of, frankly, dictatorial tendencies that Donald Trump has. So, there's no question that 2024 will be probably the most important election of our lifetime. I know that phrase has probably been used to describe every presidential election, but truly, as it was for 2020, it applies for 2024 as well.

ACOSTA: Are you concerned about Pennsylvania though, because it has been so razor thin in terms of the margins in recent presidential elections. Biden beat Trump there by a little more than a point in 2020.

BOYLE: Let me be clear. As someone who's had my name on the ballot every two years for a long time now, I am concerned about every election even ones in which are polling shows us leading by 30 or 40 points. So, I'm under no --

ACOSTA: You're not saying nothing to see here please disperse that kind of thing.

BOYLE: Yeah, sorry say that again Jim.

ACOSTA: I'm sorry. I'm not -- I'm just checking you're not saying nothing to see here.

BOYLE: Oh, no. What I'm saying is this will be a very hard-fought close election. We will have to make sure we fully get our message out, that we define the stakes for the voters, that we show exactly what a second term of Donald Trump would present. And in the end of the day, I fully expect this will be a one, two-point race, and I think it will be decided by my own state of Pennsylvania.

ACOSTA: And perhaps you saw this, that former Obama chief strategist David Axelrod, who's expected to be with us later on this evening, he is suggesting that it may be time for President Biden to re-evaluate running next year. Do you share that thought? What do you make of those thoughts when you hear that expressed by people who are respected in your party?

BOYLE: Yeah. You know, I remember being out there knocking on doors in Iowa and New Hampshire for then former Vice President Biden. And some of the same voices were saying that we had absolutely no shot. And then, sure enough, after Iowa and New Hampshire, they were absolutely convinced that Joe Biden was finished. It is amazing how many times in his career Joe Biden has been counted out only to come back and prove the critics wrong.

ACOSTA: And let's turn to another issue that your party is facing right now, the president's response to the war between Israel and Hamas. I'm sure you saw this last night, protesters chanting outside the White House. They were doing all sorts of things, defacing a piece of the White House in the front there on Lafayette Square. And this is one of your Democratic colleagues, Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib. She posted this video to social media. I want to ask you about it. Let's listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RASHIDA TLAIB (D-MI): Mr. President, the American people are not with you on this one.

UNKNOWNS: From the river to the sea! From the river to the sea! TLAIB: We will remember in 2024.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Now, there was some words on the screen there. You might not be able to see it because of the way we're doing this interview, but she's essentially accusing Joe Biden of being a part of genocide in Gaza. What do you think of some of those statements that have been coming from Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib?

BOYLE: You know, obviously, I would strongly disagree with those sentiments. We've also had some outrageous sentiments expressed by Republican members of the House who have flat out called for genocide in Gaza. This is a very emotional, powerful time around the world where we have seen a rise in both anti-Semitism and Islamophobia, unlike anything I've seen in my lifetime.

I think President Biden and this White House has been doing everything that it can to ensure that our allies in Israel are able to stand up to the Hamas terrorists, that we're able to get our hostages back, but at the same time that we ensure that as much humanitarian assistance as possible gets to those civilians in Gaza, especially the 45 percent of whom are children.

ACOSTA: But what about this fissure that appears to be growing inside the Democratic Party? I'm sure you've seen this. And there are Arab- American Democrats who have been supportive of the president in previous elections, particularly in 2020, who are saying they won't support him this time around. And as you know, getting back to the polling we were talking about at the beginning of the program, Michigan is a key battleground state. It's hard to imagine Donald Trump coming back and winning Michigan over Joe Biden.

[17:10:010]

But if Arab Americans places like Dearborn are that upset with the president, might that make a difference?

BOYLE: You know, it's a situation like this in which being the president is not an easy job. The reality is President Biden has led out of principle, but I think that in the end, once it gets into 2024, and we're talking in terms of an election, that election will be a choice not a referendum.

You have Donald Trump out there who still wants a ban on all Muslims coming into the United States. There have been those voices in the far right that have talked about actually expelling everyone who is a Palestinian-American from the United States.

So, once we get into an actual choice between a president who is attempting in a very difficult situation in which emotions are high, a president who was attempting to lead responsibly versus the incredibly irresponsible rhetoric on the far right led by Donald Trump. I do think in the end of the day, our Democratic voters will come home when faced with that choice. ACOSTA: And what about a ceasefire? The president, his

administration, they're pushing for what they're calling a humanitarian pause. Would you like to see them go further and ask for a ceasefire?

BOYLE: I would love if we could believe that Hamas would actually abide by a ceasefire. Let's not forget that some 18 years ago, Israel flat out left Gaza, actually uprooted their own settlements and left. And all they've gotten in thanks 18 years later are terrorist attack after terrorist attack from Hamas. I want all of this violence to end as soon as possible.

But the practical reality is, every time Israel actually pursues a ceasefire, all it does is enable the Hamas terrorist to regroup and relaunch further terrorist attacks.

ACOSTA: All right, Congressman Brendan Boyle of Pennsylvania, we'll let you get back to the game. Thanks very much sir for your time. We appreciate it.

BOYLE: Thank you.

ACOSTA: All right coming up, former President Trump is set to take the stand tomorrow in the New York Civil Fraud Trial. What to expect from a man who struggles at times telling the truth.

Plus, Secretary of State Tony Blinken just touched down in Turkey after a surprise visit to Iraq and another one to the West Bank. The latest on his diplomatic tour just ahead.

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[17:15:00]

ACOSTA: Tomorrow Donald Trump will be asked to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The former president is set to testify under oath in the civil fraud case that could cost him his business in New York. And his daughter Ivanka is on deck as well to testify later this week. Let's discuss with CNN legal analyst Ambassador Norm Eisen. He served as counsel to House Democrats in the first Trump impeachment.

And I mean, it's a little -- it's a bit of a mouthful getting through Donald Trump will be asked to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. perhaps not as much as it is for him. He, you know, this is where he struggles, and that's being diplomatic about things.

NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: He certainly has had his challenges with the truth, according to the "Washington Post," over 30,000 lies while in office. But the consequences --

ACOSTA: I counted many of them. I couldn't count all of them.

EISEN: The consequences are very different than when he was doing that at the White House appearances that you covered Jim. ACOSTA: Yeah.

EISEN: When you're under oath there can be serious penalties both in this civil case and ancillary penalties if lies are outrageous enough. You can be referred for prosecution.

ACOSTA: Yeah.

EISEN: I think Trump though is going to attempt to walk a fine line. His sons did this so we know the legal strategy. It's emerged in the case of blaming others, pointing a finger at others so he doesn't get pinned down himself on these outrageous gaps in valuations. We'll see what happens.

ACOSTA: Lots of different ways we can go with that. Let's -- first of all, do you expect him to plead the fifth and what are the implications of that?

EISEN: I don't think he will take the fifth and here's why. He'll be flushing this case down the toilet if he says the word self- incrimination. Unlike in a criminal case where you don't get to argue that to the jury, Judge Engoron, no fan of Donald Trump already, can draw an adverse inference if Donald Trump takes the fifth. He can say, well, that settles it. I'm ruling against him.

Trump and company are playing for an appeal. They know they're gonna lose in front of this judge. They don't want to mess up the appellate record with the Fifth Amendment. I don't think he's going to do that.

ACOSTA: And so, you mentioned the consequences of Trump lies in the courtroom. He could be charged with perjury. He could be prosecuted for perjury.

EISEN: He could be. His sons were a little iffy at points where they said one thing and then they were confronted with documents. To the contrary, Don Jr. had a problem with that. Eric had a worse problem with that. You've got to go pretty far out for a perjury referral. This judge has already found that Trump was incredible when he was forced to testify about an attack in violation of a gag order in the case against the judge's law clerk.

So, I think the more likely is that Trump hurts himself in the case and the judge finds both Trump and his sons were not credible and therefore he rules against them. He essentially takes the businesses away. He fines them hundreds of millions of dollars.

ACOSTA: Is that possible? Do you think that --

EISEN: It is possible. He already attempted to yank the certificates of doing business. It's like a driver's license. You can't do business without the certificate.

[17:20:02]

ACOSTA: Right. EISEN: That's on appeal now. There's going to be a hearing soon on that. But the hardest thing to challenge, if Trump and his sons are going to go for this appellate strategy, Jim, the hardest thing to challenge on appeal is a judge's sitting as a fact finder, firsthand determinations of credibility. So, that's what Trump is running up against. The odds are stacked against him, I think, at trial and on appeal in this case.

ACOSTA: And then what about the explanation coming from Don, Jr. and Eric, which I suspect it sounds like what you're saying is that the former president may try this as well, blaming it on the accountants saying, well, we were just, you know, the accountants would hand us things, the lawyers would hand us things, we would sign them. What's the big deal here? It sounds like you don't buy that and the judge may not buy this.

EISEN: Well, Jim, it has the world of business and finance and accounting backwards. The businesses make representations to their accountants. The accountants rely on that and then they apply accounting standards. So, for Trump to say that the accountants are responsible for the numbers that he and his sons are providing makes no sense. And there was pushback. When the sons attempted to do that, they were confronted with evidence, hey, you had put these numbers forward to your accountants. You would vouch for them. So, I don't think it's going to work in front of this, Judge.

ACOSTA: Yeah, and it also flies in the face of, I mean, this image that they've built up for years. I mean, this is the image that Trump ran on for president, that he's this genius in the business world, and then all of a sudden to be able to pull back and say, oh, wait, with the accountants, the lawyers, I don't know what I'm doing here anymore. I don't see how that flies in court.

EISEN: Well, and that's the greatest danger. And these lawyers for the state of New York are going to attempt to goad and bait Trump into making those kinds of self-aggrandizing statements and embracing these numbers, which the court has already found are phony, and in their most extreme, may have overstated the value of the businesses by billions. So, if Trump falls into that trap, then he really does get out on the edge of perjury risk, not to mention the judge saying that's baloney and ruling against him.

ACOSTA: Yeah, Trump's baloney actually on trial when he takes the stand and tries to testify this week. Norm Eisen, thanks for breaking it down for us. We appreciate it.

EISEN: Thanks, Jim.

ACOSTA: We'll see what happens. All right. Still ahead, other news to talk about. The IDF says it is conducting a significant strike on Gaza. We'll take you live to the region next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:25:00] ACOSTA: As tensions flare again at the Israeli-Lebanese border, an Israeli Defense Forces chief said in a statement that the military is ready to shift into an offensive mode in the north at any moment. Right now, on the southern front, the IDF says it's conducting what it calls a significant strike on Gaza. Earlier today, the Israeli military said its troops, ground troops, reached the coast of Gaza as it works to encircle Hamas forces.

This comes as communications in Gaza have reportedly been cut for a third time since the conflict started. A U.N. relief agency says the phone and internet blackout has made it difficult to reach their teams on the ground. In the meantime, with the worsening humanitarian situation in Gaza, Secretary of State Tony Blinken met with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas in Ramallah. The two discussed the Israeli-Hamas war and the escalating violence in the West Bank. Blinken is now in Turkey after making an unannounced stop in Iraq. And CNN's Jim Sciutto is on the ground for us in northern Israel. Jeremy Diamond is in Ashkelon.

Jim, let me start with you first. Another top U.S. official traveling to the Middle East as Tony Blinken continues this diplomatic tour. He's back in the region again trying to keep a lid on things. What more can he tell us?

JIM SCIUTTO, CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY ANLAYST: That's right. I can report that the CIA director Bill Burns is traveling to the Middle East as well. A U.S. official telling me that the focus of his visit will be a few things. One, of course, the ongoing military campaign in Gaza, but also hostage negotiations and a focus that's been consistent for U.S. officials as they visit the region, and that is to attempt to keep this war from expanding.

That, a similar message to what we heard from Secretary Blinken as he made his surprise visit to Baghdad where, of course, U.S. forces have come under fire from Iran-backed militias their multiple times since October 7, similar attacks in Syria against U.S. forces there. Secretary Blinken taking care to say during his visit to Baghdad that a U.S. focus remains not allowing this war to expand or doing all they can to keep state and non-stake actors from jumping into this conflict. Have a listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: We're working very hard to make sure that the conflict in Gaza does not escalate, does not spread to other places, whether it's here, whether it's elsewhere in the region. This is the very vital and urgent work of American diplomacy, and that's what we've been engaged in as well throughout this trip.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Secretary Blinken, of course, the top U.S. diplomat. And Bill Burns is often dispatched by the U.S. president to some of the most intractable international situations around the world. It was Burns who the president sent to Russia in the weeks before its invasion of Ukraine to assess Russian intentions, deliver U.S. opposition to that invasion.

So, he's often tasked with some of the most difficult jobs, and I think you could put that in this category, particularly as U.S. efforts to date have not been able to unify the Arab world alongside U.S. interests here.

[17:29:53]

So, Bill Burns, part of an effort not just to keep this war from expanding but attempting to meet some other U.S. objectives here, for instance, looking for that humanitarian pause, a ceasefire of sorts, if they can manage one in Gaza.

ACOSTA: Right. And I'm sure the Israelis would love to have as much assistance from an intelligence standpoint as possible in trying to locate these Hamas leaders. I mean, I have to think that's got to be on the agenda as well. And Jim, what sort of activity are you seeing in Northern Israel right now?

SCIUTTO: A definite step up, Jim, in the last several hours here. We have been up here for a couple of weeks. There has been a constant slow burn, crossfire at the northern border. It has gone up and down at times. But in the last half day or so, it has definitely accelerated in both directions.

There was an Israeli strike earlier in the day that hit civilians. Those are the accounts from the Lebanese side of the border. Israel says it is looking into that strike, four civilians, including three children, say Lebanese officials, were killed in that attack. And in response, we've seen an uptick in rocket attacks, artillery strikes from the Lebanese side of the border.

An Israeli civilian killed in a community just along the border. A home was struck in Qiryat Shemona, just north of here. But the family was not injured. They were able to get into their shelter. But it shows the level of fire here at the northern border.

And the head of the Israeli military said that it reserves the right, it is ready at any time to move into what he called an offensive mode in the north. That seems to be a warning to Hezbollah and other militant groups in Southern Lebanon that if this were to expand to the northern front, that Israel would be -- would be poised to respond.

And just a reminder, there are some 70,000 Israeli soldiers based on the northern frontier here as a deterrent and certainly gives them the ability to respond if they were to choose to do so. That said, for Israel to fight a two-front war would be -- would be a tall order.

ACOSTA: Absolutely would change the complexion of everything. And Jeremy, we've seen more, and I know you've seen more, IDF troops on the move inside of Gaza. You've been very busy on your end of things. What's the latest there?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, well, this evening, Jim, we watched as the Israeli military appeared to be conducting a very significant operation inside of Gaza. Heavy airstrikes that we were able to see from our position just south of here in Sderot earlier this evening. There were also flares indicating that there was a heavy ground operation component to this as well.

And in fact, this evening, the Israeli Defense Forces spokesman, Admiral Hagari, confirming that a -- quote -- "significant and very extensive strike was being carried out by Israeli forces," calling it a combination of a ground operation with an air attack component. And we could clearly see the intensity of that, and feel and hear the intensity of those attacks.

At the same time this evening, Jim, we're also seeing that there is communication -- telecommunications blackout, effectively, inside of Gaza. Multiple telecommunications providers saying that their communications have been severely disrupted by Israeli operations, and that's significant because the last time that we saw communication inside Gaza be disrupted was the Friday night, a little over a week ago, when Israeli forces launched that expanded ground operation. So, this typically does happen at significant moments.

But at the same time, we are also watching as Israeli forces are continuing to carry out their attacks with the Israeli prime minister today saying that he will not agree to a ceasefire unless all hostages are released, and that is despite the fact that there is growing international condemnation for the manner in which Israel is conducting this war against Hamas.

We have watched as increasingly as multiple densely populated neighborhoods, refugee camps inside the Gaza Strip have been bombed with heavy bombs on some of those targets. We saw the Jabalia refugee camp last week. Yesterday, it was the Al-Maghazi refugee camp inside of Gaza. Fifty people were killed, according to a hospital official, in an Israeli strike on that target.

Now, the Israelis say that Hamas is to blame for civilian deaths because they are hiding their underground tunnel facilities below some of these residential buildings. But increasingly, international organizations, human rights and international law experts say that Israel could potentially be committing war crimes by targeting some of these densely populated neighborhoods with very, very powerful bombs that are leaving civilians dead as well.

ACOSTA: All right, Jim Sciutto, Jeremy diamond, thanks to both of you. Really appreciate it. Thanks for the reporting.

Back here in Washington, some of the gates at the White House recovered with red handprints after yesterday's pro-Palestinian rally here in the nation's capital. Some of the demonstrators also pushed up against the gates during the rally. Speakers accused the Biden administration of having blood on its hands for failing to call for a ceasefire in Gaza. The Secret Service, however, said no arrests were made.

[17:35:00]

Coming up, as tensions grow in the Middle East, Donald Trump's former National Security advisor, John Bolton, says the White House is being intimidated by Iran. We'll talk to Ambassador Bolton in just a few moments, ask him to explain that. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ACOSTA: Secretary of State Tony Blinken added a surprise stop to his already packed schedule through the Middle East. He was in Iraq earlier today. Let's get some perspective now from former ambassador, John Bolton, Donald Trump's ex-national security advisor.

Ambassador Bolton, thanks very much for being with us. What's your view at this point on this idea of a humanitarian pause in Gaza that the Biden administration has been talking about? That is not something that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu wants to hear about, but it goes slightly towards where the Arab leaders want in the region. They want to ceasefire, but the Biden administration is not quite on board with that just yet. Is humanitarian pause something in the middle that should be pursued at this point?

[17:40:00]

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR OF THE UNITED STATES: No. I think this is very serious. I think the Biden administration is sliding away from its support of Israel. I think nobody has taken in to account how Hamas and its puppet masters in Tehran really are manipulating public opinion in the United States and elsewhere.

This is a very serious matter that's going on here and there is no connection between what Israel is doing in the northern part of the Gaza Strip and opening the border for proper shipments of humanitarian aid. This is a problem Hamas has caused on both sides, letting the aid in and letting people out who want to get out.

So, I think Israel is entirely justified here in saying Hamas is so utterly untrustworthy that they don't get the benefit of a humanitarian pause and certainly not a ceasefire.

ACOSTA: But what about these civilian casualties in Gaza that are on the rise, Ambassador? As the Israeli military keeps hitting these Hamas targets, they are killing a lot of civilians. I mean, we've seen some of the video, you've seen some of the video, just leaving massive craters in some very densely populated areas. Children are being killed. Hospitals are being flooded with patients.

If you were in the position of national security advisor right now, would you at least privately say to the Israelis that they should be more selective in their targeting? What do you think?

BOLTON: Well, I think you have to think there's evidence they're not being selective. You know, the moral question here basically centers on who is responsible for these civilian casualties. And the answer is Hamas. They're the ones that have weaponized the entire Gaza Strip over a 15-year period where Israel hasn't even been present. They're the ones that put their own civilian population in jeopardy.

And it would be a cruel irony here if the group that committed the atrocities on October 7th by committing further atrocities of endangering its own population somehow is allowed to skate free. I would call that the terrorist veto.

What Israel is doing, and it's always subject to qualification, but is picking legitimate military targets, what its information tells it are legitimate military targets, which it is entitled to do in the exercise of its self-defense. It's not entitled to target civilians, cause civilians -- it's picking. It says it's picking legitimate military targets.

And it has made the decision to try and get all civilian casualties minimized by giving advance warning and has made the judgment, which international law permits in armed conflict, that the military target is sufficiently serious to justify the tragic risk of civilian casualties. And unless somebody can say they're doing something else, they are entitled to do what they're doing.

ACOSTA: Do you think the Israelis, though, need to at some point, perhaps in the near future, make more of a transition to ground forces conducting house by house, street by street, searches for Hamas leaders as opposed to these bombs that -- some of this bombing that has been going on, these strikes, these airstrikes that have been going on, which can have a pretty heavy civilian toll?

BOLTON: Well, so can house by house, street by street conflict. I think Israel, both as a political matter and as a moral matter, is entitled to try and minimize its own casualties. I think this focus on the situation in Gaza also obscures what's really going on here, as does all this talk about not letting the conflict spread. It has already spread.

Let's try and summarize what's actually happening. One of America's closest allies is under multiple attacks and threats of attacks by a coalition of some of America's greatest enemies now at least at the political level and maybe more, including Russia.

This is extraordinarily serious. This is not about the Gaza Strip. This is about the survival of Israel and threats to the United States. And I don't think the administration either understands it or is willing to admit it. And I think that has an extraordinarily negative impact on our ability to resist this threat.

ACOSTA: Let me ask you about this op-ed that you have in the "New York Post." You said President Biden is risking American lives by refusing to hold Iran responsible for the Hamas attacks on October 7th. I mean, the president has been standing pretty shoulder to shoulder with the Israelis. I know you've acknowledged that. But do you really want a war with Iran? Is that -- is that the right approach here?

BOLTON: I don't think it's a question of what we want. I think it's a question of what Iran wants. I think there's no doubt here that Iran has called the shots from the beginning.

[17:45:02] We don't know what their full strategy is. But the center of this conflict is with the mullahs in Tehran. The administration has said that they won't tolerate attacks on American personnel by Iranian surrogates, terrorist groups in Iraq or elsewhere. And yet the attacks have continued. Biden has drawn a red line and it's disappearing right in front of us. I think that does endanger American lives across the region.

ACOSTA: But you're not talking about some kind of military option when it comes to Iran right now, are you?

BOLTON: Of course, I am. If Iranian surrogate groups kill Americans, the Iranians need to pay a price for it. They don't take our restraint as a goodwill gesture, Jim. They take it as weakness.

ACOSTA: Right. But I -- knowing what you know about the experience of the Bush administration with the Iraq war, the war on terrorism, launching a war against Iran, entering into a military conflict with the Iranians, obviously, is going to have major consequences in the region.

BOLTON: Look, nobody wants it. Israel didn't start this. We didn't start this. It's Israel that's under attack now. It's Americans in the region that are under attack. How many are going to be put at risk? We've been very lucky.

I would have to say some of the Shia groups in Iraq are incompetent, would be a polite way to put it, and we haven't had a serious loss of American life. We've had some and some wounded. But the day could come when we would see significant American casualties as a result of the actions of Iran's surrogates --

ACOSTA: Yeah.

BOLTON: -- done absolutely with their knowledge and probably direction. So, what do you do then, Jim? You just say, oh, it's too bad, isn't it? Too bad.

ACOSTA: Yeah. Let me ask you this. I mean, that's obviously hypothetical.

BOLTON: Would you retaliate?

ACOSTA: That's what you're talking about, a hypothetical --

BOLTON: Well, would you retaliate?

ACOSTA: I mean --

BOLTON: Sure, it is. That's right. But it could happen tomorrow.

ACOSTA: Yeah. Obviously, that raises a whole set of issues and, obviously, more options would be on the table. In a situation like that, as you know, ambassador, any American president would look at those options in that kind of situation. Let me ask you a couple of political questions. The new House speaker, Mike Johnson, has been tying aid to Israel to cutting funds for the IRS. Do you agree with that?

BOLTON: Look, I think that's something that Republicans should be doing more of. I would certainly vote in favor of whatever aid Israel needs. But I think we have got to make some choices: Reducing domestic expenditures, domestic welfare expenditures, wasteful domestic spending. I think the idea that tying the aid to something that is unpalatable to the president may help get the aid to Israel. These are legislative tactics. I don't see any reason not to be more aggressive in that sense.

ACOSTA: All right, Ambassador John Bolton, thanks very much for your time. We appreciate it.

BOLTON: Glad to be with you.

ACOSTA: Be right back.

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[17:50:00]

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ACOSTA: A family of Palestinian Americans is in mourning after losing three generations of their family in one day. The people shown in this picture are among the 42 members of the same family all reportedly killed in Gaza on the same day. CNN's Isabel Rosales spoke with their surviving relatives in the U.S. about their story.

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ISABEL ROSALES, CNN REPORTER (voice-over): A crowd of neighbors and survivors working together to bury loved ones. Wrapped in white burial shrouds, their bodies are carried and lined up inside a mass grave. They belong to one family. Thousands of miles away in the U.S., family members across three states are united in grief.

EYAD ABU SHABAN, 42 RELATIVES KILLED IN GAZA: I'm still in this nightmare. I'm still not -- I haven't woke up yet.

FLORES (voice-over): In Florida, Eyad Abu Shaban can't bear the unimaginable loss.

ABU SHABAN: That's my cousin, his son.

FLORES (voice-over): Three generations gone in a single day. Back to back airstrikes, the family says, in Gaza, killing 42 relatives. The youngest, just three months old, Abu Shaban tells CNN.

A video shot by a neighbor shows charred ruins and rubble, all that's left of the Saqallah family compound.

ABU SHABAN: We've never seen in this day and age what -- where the whole world is watching inno0cent people just being torn apart. Family, whole families just wiped off the map.

FLORES (voice-over): The family blames the deaths on Israeli airstrikes. CNN cannot independently confirm that. Israel has launched numerous airstrikes on Gaza City since the terror attacks on October 7, including multiple strikes in the area that day. The Israel Defense Forces did not comment on the purported airstrikes.

ABU SHABAN: I mean, in my family members, we have no Hamas members. They're just ordinary people, doctors and grandmothers and grandfathers and uncles and aunts and children. I mean, if you want to exterminate Hamas, then you should go to the source.

FLORES (voice-over): Among the dead, four brothers, all doctors. Family members say they operated Gaza's largest network of family- owned eye clinics. An independent journalist on the ground captured the aftermath and the moment survivors pulled body after body from beneath the rubble, including Mona Abu Shaban's uncle, his wife, and son. The three had recently left their home in a different part of the city to stay at the Saqallah compound, Mona says.

[17:54:58]

MONA ABU SHABAN, 42 RELATIVES KILLED IN GAZA: Their previous home where they were at before, they were told to evacuate. So, they assumed that they were going to be safe. So, they went to a safe area, safe house, basically.

FLORES (voice-over): Watching from afar in Ohio, Mona is pleading not only for a ceasefire, but long-term action.

M. ABU SHABAN: We can't just say, okay, we're going to stop bombing and then it's over. You have to give them, you know, their dignity. You have to give the Palestinians a place to call home.

FLORES (voice-over): In Minnesota, community members fill up an Islamic center praying in support of the Saqallah family. In the face of so much loss, their family has no time to properly mourn, overcome by constant worry for the more than two million Palestinians in Gaza caught in the crossfire.

E. ABU SHABAN: There's a sense of helplessness. There's no -- the only thing we can do is pray.

FLORES (on camera): Two family members survived, including a woman who was on her balcony when the airstrikes hit. That's according to relatives in Minnesota. The family is extremely worried about them. Communication with the relatives in Gaza is not easy right now. Mona tells me that they are essentially hunkering down, but are unable to leave because the only official way out so far is available only to foreign nationals and injured Palestinians, according to officials and Egyptian media. Jim?

ACOSTA: All right, thank you to Isabel Rosales for that report. We'll be right back.

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