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IDF Says It's Conducting Significant Strike on Gaza; New Polls Show Trump Leading Biden in Key States; Democrats Court Black Voters in Milwaukee Ahead of Election; Incidents of Antisemitism Rising in Europe; Queen Rania of Jordan Weighs in on Israel-Hamas War. Aired 8- 9p ET

Aired November 05, 2023 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[20:00:39]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN ANCHOR: You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington. Good evening.

The 2024 election is heating up as we mark one year until voters cast their ballots in the race for president. A fresh set of polls from "The New York Times" and Sienna College show troubling signs for President Biden at this stage in the campaign. Hypothetical matchups in four key swing states show Trump taking the lead.

But it's not all good news for the former president. In just 14 hours, Trump is expected to take the stands in a high stakes civil fraud trial that could help decide the fate of his business empire in New York. This comes on top of the 91 criminal charges he's facing in four other cases.

Meantime, President Biden is facing growing pressure here at home. This was the scene at the White House last night, some of the gates covered with red handprints after a pro-Palestinian rally.

Over in the Middle East, U.S. Secretary of State Tony Blinken is in Turkey for another key diplomatic meeting. Earlier today, he made an unannounced visit to Baghdad to meet with U.S. troops and the Iraqi prime minister. Blinken's stop in Turkey comes as police there were used to deploy tear gas and water cannons to stop pro-Palestinian protesters who tried to storm a U.S. air base.

Meanwhile, the Israeli military is conducting what it calls a significant strike on Gaza. The IDF says it's targeting Hamas militants and senior commanders. An IDF spokesman today said the current count of hostages being held by Hamas is 240. That number can fluctuate based on updated intelligence according to the Israeli military. And former Israeli prime minister Naftali Bennett joins us now.

Mr. Prime Minister, thank you very much for joining us. We appreciate it. What is the latest, do you think, on the hostages? And these numbers are fluctuating from time to time. That's to be expected. But I know that the Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said there's not going to be a cease-fire unless more hostages come out. Do you think we could see that in the coming days? NAFTALI BENNETT, FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: I don't know. It's

tough. We have to apply tremendous pressure on Hamas. They're holding 240 hostages, including young babies, for example, Kfir Bibas is 6 months old or Abigail Edan lost her mom and dad who were murdered by Hamas. And her two brothers were hiding in a cupboard. She's there alone. Imagine a young girl alone after knowing her parents are dead. And so we have to do everything and increase the pressure in order to get Hamas to release these hostages.

ACOSTA: And you're in the U.S. right now meeting with members of Congress. What are you planning to tell them? What are you talking about? And what about some of the pressure that is starting to make itself very apparent in the U.S. domestic political scene where you have Democrats, obviously a significant number of Democrats in Congress, who are concerned about the humanitarian toll in Gaza right now?

BENNETT: I understand that. But we're going to have to follow this through. We don't have any choice. We really don't have a choice. The situation is fairly straightforward. We have a next-door neighbor who just sent 3,000 murderers to kill our children, to rape our daughters, is holding hostage 240 of them. It's clear that we cannot live with this Nazi-type state on our border.

So we have no choice but to eliminate it, and we're going to have to eliminate Hamas, and it will take time. And I understand the domestic pressures all across the world. But really you'd do just the same thing if that were the case. We just have to do it.

ACOSTA: And what do you make of the Biden administration calling for a humanitarian pause? It's not going as far as what many Arab leaders would like to see. They've been calling for a cease-fire. There have been lots of calls internationally for a cease-fire. The Biden administration is not going that far. President Biden has really been standing shoulder to shoulder with the Israelis throughout all of this.

Why not give the Biden administration a humanitarian pause to relieve some of that domestic political pressure?

[20:05:00]

BENNETT: Because what that pause is, is we cease and they fire. I have a lot of experience with Hamas. I've been fighting them as a soldier, and I was in the security cabinet, prime minister, you name it. When we cease, they build up and fire at our people. We can't. We have to eliminate Hamas. We have to follow through. We can't just stop again and again because each time, they rebuild and that just lengthens the whole process.

This is going to be a very painful process. It's not easy. We're losing boys and girls in battle. I'm losing some of my own friends and my friends' children. It's horrible. But when you have an al Qaeda- like state on your border, we just have to clean it up and make sure this can never, ever happen again. That's the fundamental duty of our stated citizens. ACOSTA: And the IDF has said repeatedly they're not targeting

civilians in Gaza, that they're taking every step that they can to avoid civilian casualties. And yet civilians are getting hit. Over the weekend, as you know, a U.N. school was struck where refugees were taking shelter. There were civilian casualties there.

Do you agree with the Israeli government's approach here to continue with these bombardments, with these very devastating strikes on targets inside of Gaza where civilians are being killed?

BENNETT: Well, that's an inevitable consequence of war. We're not targeting civilians. We're targeting Hamas, but you are right that civilians are dying. That's because Hamas hides behind the civilians at places. It's rockets -- shooting rockets at my children behind its own children. So I do just what you would do and what any other country would do. What America did to Germany and Japan.

We have to eradicate this regime. Only when Hamas gets out will all of this suffering stop, suffering for us and for the Palestinians. There's no other way, and there's no quick or simple answer here. It's going to be tough, tough for everyone. That's why we need the backing to follow this through. Otherwise it's going to go on forever.

ACOSTA: And as you know, the opposition to what your country is doing in Gaza right now is building. There was a pro-Palestinian rally in Washington, in London, other parts around the world. It got quite heated outside the White House yesterday. I'm sure you saw some of that footage. Obviously those kinds of things are going to continue to happen here in the United States and around the world.

Amnesty international has said that Israel has waged a, quote, "campaign of violations of international law." What do you make of the stepped-up international criticism of what Israel is doing?

BENNETT: So these pro-Hamas rallies, are they pro-raping girls? Are they pro-severing arms of an 8-year-old boy until he dies? Are they pro-kidnapping 84-year-old women and babies? Is that what this, you know, movement of pro-Palestinian is about? Is it pro-killing gays? Pro-putting women -- not allowing them to go out and work? Against free press? What is the pro? I don't really understand this.

I think it's either flat antisemites or people who are ignorant, who just don't know what they're out there demonstrating for. They're demonstrating for a Nazi-like regime, and I'm sure one day they'll be very sorry about that.

ACOSTA: What does it look like when Israel achieves its military objective in Gaza? What does that look like?

BENNETT: Well, we have 240 hostages released, and we have either killed all Hamas operatives and the terrorists or expelled them from Gaza.

ACOSTA: And at some point, do you think this military campaign has to shift in terms of tactics away from these devastating air strikes on targets in Gaza to perhaps a more surgical approach on the ground? Does that need to take place? It sounds as though from what we are hearing, the American government has been urging that behind the scenes, behind the scenes with Israeli officials.

Do you think at some point it's going to switch to that kind of an operation?

BENNETT: You know, we're bending over backwards to prevent or minimize the number of casualties. But when you have an enemy who is hellbent on killing its own people in order to kill Jews, it's very difficult. We know as a fact that they've been shooting and bombing humanitarian corridors as to prevent their own citizens from moving away.

[20:10:03]

The only way to stop all this death is to eliminate Hamas, and then it will all go away. Again, just like the Nazi regime, there was no way to surgically do away with the Nazis and the Japanese. You have to defeat them, unconditional surrender, and only then all the carnage stops.

ACOSTA: All right. Former Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett, thank you very much, sir, for your time. We appreciate it.

BENNETT: Thank you.

ACOSTA: All right. And we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ACOSTA: More now on these new polls from "The New York Times" and Sienna College that show some warning signs for President Biden's re- election bid. These are from "The New York Times" and Sienna College as I said. Hypothetical matchups in four key swing states that show Trump taking the lead.

Let's delve into this with CNN senior political commentator and former Obama senior adviser David Axelrod. He's also the host of the CNN podcast "The Axe Files."

[20:15:04]

David, thanks for being here. I know you started a stir this morning for some Democrats when you questioned whether it's wise for President Biden to continue as a candidate in the 2024 race. You wrote on social media, "If Biden continues to run, he will be the nominee of the Democratic Party. What he needs to decide is whether that is wise, whether it's in his best interest or the country's."

That's -- I know David Axelrod. I've talked to David Axelrod a long time. That's David Axelrod sounding worried.

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. Well, I mean, I think that there is reason to be worried. There's no reason to panic because I was involved in a campaign in 2011 when, in fact, just around this time of year, there was a series of polls that Gallup did in battleground states that showed Obama trailing both Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich, and we ended up winning that race by a substantial electoral margin.

But there were things in this poll that were concerning, and I think people should be -- should not be Pollyannish about it. People should not be in denial about it. One of them was that Biden was basically running even with Trump among voters under 30. He carried them by 2 to 1 in 2020. That is one sign of concern. Another was that he is -- that Trump was carrying, in this particular poll, in these battleground states, 22 percent of the African-American vote. That's 10 percent more than he did nationwide in 2020.

And the Hispanic vote was relatively even, and that's a vote that Biden won handily in 2020. So these are warnings. But the biggest one obviously has to do with age and how people view it. I believe, Jim, that Joe Biden has been a fine president, even a great president in many ways, and I think history is going to record that. And he's done things that have some generational importance.

That said, he is not great in front of the camera anymore. There are signs of age. And he's going to be 81 this month, and people know that. And that's shot through this poll. 71 percent of people said that they thought he was too old to be president. A majority said Trump is not too old to be president even though he's just 3 1/2 years younger than Biden, and the same kind of numbers relative to their mental acuity.

I don't know. I don't think that reflects the reality, but I think it reflects their performance in front of cameras, and it fits into the larger Republican narrative, which is that, you know, things are out of control and Biden is not in command. Again, I think it's more about performance in front of cameras than performance on the job. And I think his experience has shown in many ways, you know, including globally. But all of these things are warning signs, and the stakes are so large.

ACOSTA: Yes.

AXELROD: You know, because -- you know, you covered Donald Trump. He's not someone who believes in rules or laws or norms or institutions that are central to our democracy. His whole candidacy now is predicated on tearing those down, whether it's a free and fair elections or the rule of law. And so there are real consequences to the outcome of this. And all I was saying is think carefully about this.

No one is going to -- I don't believe anybody is going to take this nomination away from Joe Biden. If he wants to run and he says he's running, I think he will be the nominee of the Democratic Party. But the whole party needs to be cognizant that this is going to be a major challenge.

And one last point, Jim.

ACOSTA: Sure.

AXELROD: I think that if he is going -- if the president is moving forward, and I expect that he will, they very quickly have to turn this into a comparative race. They spent a lot of the fall trying to sell people on the president's economic achievements, and there are major economic achievements. But that's not where the country's mind is at. The economy was very lowly rated here. And they need to get into a much more comparative mindset vis-a-vis Trump on every issue.

ACOSTA: Right.

AXELROD: And force people to make a choice and not turn this into a referendum.

ACOSTA: Well, so, David, that leads me to this question. Do you think Joe Biden should consider not being the nominee, not running?

AXELROD: I think Joe Biden, like I said, I think that's up to him. And I'm not going to tell him what to do. I don't think anybody can tell him what to do or should tell him what to do. But I think he needs to consider carefully what these and other numbers and data he's getting suggest and make a judgment as to whether he, in fact, is the best candidate to take on Trump.

There was a, you know, matrix in this poll, a chart that reflected the fact that Trump lost to a generic Democrat by 8 percent. He even did -- Kamala Harris even did a little better than the president against Trump. And I think age has a lot to do with this. So -- and one thing we know for sure, he's not going to be younger a year from now. So I do think there are serious things to consider, including his legacy, which should be strong.

And -- but obviously will be impacted if he runs and doesn't win this race. So he needs to just consider. Am I the strongest candidate to defeat Donald Trump? And if he thinks the answer is yes, then start running against him every single day.

ACOSTA: Yes. Well, David, you know, some Democrats are saying there's no cause for concern here. Obama, as you know, was in this place 2011. Bill Clinton was trailing in 1995. If you take a look at this "Washington Post" poll from 1982, it showed a majority of voters did not want Ronald Reagan running for a second term. I mean that was something "The Washington Post" reported way back in 1982.

AXELROD: Yes.

ACOSTA: So, I mean, it is different, though, when Trump is the nominee. Reagan, Obama didn't have to run against Donald Trump. The stakes are much higher.

AXELROD: The stakes are higher. And Trump, you know, for all we know about him, you have to give him -- you have to acknowledge his feral genius for this kind of political warfare, this media environment. The fact that he is in the position he's in right now is quite remarkable. So he needs to be taken very, very seriously, and it's also true that Biden -- that both Obama and Clinton were, you know, about 50 years old when they were running for re-election, and they were running against Bob Dole and Mitt Romney, not Donald Trump.

So I don't know that that is a -- those are apt comparisons. There's no point in trying to talk yourself into thinking that this isn't a real challenge. And so, you know, and that's really my message to Democrats is stop talking about bedwetters. It's not bedwetting to be concerned.

ACOSTA: Yes.

AXELROD: Now, you know, you may want to turn that concern into action, and the campaign itself may want to get into a different gear. But it's not bedwetting. These are real fundamental challenges.

ACOSTA: And do you think it's because Joe Biden has said, you know, I got Ukraine to deal with. I've got the Middle East to deal with. The campaign will come, and perhaps a Rose Garden-style re-election campaign is just not what's in the cards for Joe Biden this time around and that this may just be a brass knuckles brawl with Donald Trump? I mean Donald Trump is only three years younger than Joe Biden. We've been showing in recent days all of his verbal slipups out on the campaign trail.

AXELROD: Yes.

ACOSTA: He's not exactly batting a thousand when it comes to reading the teleprompter himself. And yet Biden is the one with this perception problem and not Donald Trump.

AXELROD: Yes -- no, I know. I mean, that's the narrative that has sunk in. And I think partly because Trump, even though some of the things he says are just lunacy and, you know, references to wrong countries and, you know, we've seen those serially, but he is very energetic, and nobody doubts that, you know. And sometimes Biden's presentation is less than energetic. And I think that is part of the -- part of the contrast.

But, you know, and the president is doing what the president should. We've got tremendous challenges right now, foreign and domestic, and he's attending to them. But that doesn't mean that his campaign can't be engaged every day in drawing the contrasts between Biden and Trump and really taking the case to Trump. I mean Trump's the nominee. I think that seems pretty clear. It's very unlikely that he's not going to be the nominee. So start framing the case against him. I wouldn't wait.

ACOSTA: And what do you say to -- I mean, I'm sure you've taken a lot of incoming today from fellow Democrats and progressives when you tweeted this, put this on X, whatever you want to call it, earlier this morning. It sounds as though there are folks on the left who just don't want to have this conversation. And what is your message to them to say, you've got to have this conversation?

AXELROD: Well, my message is that the stakes couldn't be higher. This is not a normal election.

[20:25:03]

I mean it will be a fundamental event if Donald Trump were re-elected because of the thing I said earlier, because he is not the pro- democracy candidate in this race, although one of the alarming things in this poll in this battleground state is the question was asked, who do you think would do a better job on a series of issues. I mentioned earlier that basically had a 22 point lead on the economy.

But on democracy, Biden only had a three-point advantage. Now I don't know because I don't know -- I don't know if people knew what democracy exactly meant in that context, but, you know, people should not make any -- should not be confused about this. I mean there's one candidate who is committed to the institutions of our democracy and the norms and rules and laws of our democracy, and there's another candidate who flouts them and disdains them and is overtly running against them, the rule of law, the sanctity of free and fair elections and so on.

ACOSTA: Yes.

AXELROD: So, you know, I just think that the stakes are so large that to pretend -- the idea that, well, let's not talk about these challenges because maybe people won't notice them. Well, guess what, what these polls say is, yes, people are noticing them, and we better have a strategy for dealing with them if you're a Democrat because this election could be lost.

ACOSTA: Yes. I mean it's very much a race between a Democrat and a wannabe dictator. And if anybody wants to read this "Washington Post" story that's out this evening, talking about how aides and people around Donald Trump and Donald Trump himself have been talking about a campaign of retribution if he is elected president again.

David Axelrod, thank you very much for your time. We appreciate it. I know it was a little bit of a close shave getting you on this evening. No pun intended. But thanks very much for coming on tonight. Appreciate it.

AXELROD: Always good to be with you, Jim. Thank you.

ACOSTA: All right. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:31:14]

ACOSTA: Black turnout soared in Milwaukee during the Obama years, but it fell in 2016 and was flat in 2020. After winning Wisconsin by less than a percent back then, President Biden may now face an uphill battle in this key swing state.

John King has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Devonta Johnson is a foot soldier for democracy in one of its most crucial battlegrounds.

DEVONTA JOHNSON, CANVASSER, BLACK LEADERS ORGANIZING FOR COMMUNITIES: Hello. I'm Devonta from Black Leaders Organizing for Communities.

KING: This stop is encouraging.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm so happy there is a black man out here that's going from door to door.

DEZ WOODS, CANVASSER, BLACK LEADERS ORGANIZING FOR COMMUNITIES: She's a tough one.

KING: Fellow organizer Dez Woods, though, gets the response for more common these days.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't want to talk about the elections.

KING: Woods is trained to keep trying.

WOODS: So are you not a voter?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I want to. And right now I don't want to.

KING: The predominantly black neighborhoods on Milwaukee's north side can look and feel forgotten.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One of the main things we care about me--

KING: The canvassers meet often and share what they are hearing. Good- paying jobs are scarce. Rent is up. The streets used to be cleaner and safer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you all hear people say ain't nothing happening. It won't affect us. Raise your hand. Raise your hand.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's all they're saying, it's like ain't no change.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wow.

ANGELA LANG, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, BLACK LEADERS ORGANIZING FOR COMMUNITIES: So we see all these other areas --

KING: BLOC founder Angela Lang outlines this week's agenda and next November's stakes.

LANG: There is no way to win a statewide election that doesn't run through the black community. What happens in Milwaukee can impact the rest of the state, which ultimately can impact the rest of the country. No pressure.

KING: The president was last here in August for a green energy event and this old industrial site is being cleaned up with Biden infrastructure money.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Putting in the work for black America.

KING: But early spending on radio and TV ads targeting black voters is proof the campaign sees the problem. Those ads don't mention one issue critical here.

LANG: People are wondering what is he doing in terms of police accountability and criminal justice reform.

KING: Lang also says the president better show up more.

LANG: People always want to see people actually paying attention, and sometimes that means being able to physically be here and engage.

KING: Black turnout soared here in the Obama years but it dropped in 2016 and was flat in 2020.

(On-camera): On a scale of one to 10, how would you grade the Joe Biden presidency in terms of its impact on your life and your community?

DAVETTE BAKER, MILWAUKEE VOTER: A four.

KING: A four?

BAKER: Yeah, and I love Joe.

KING (voice-over): Davette Baker, though, sees a reason for optimism.

BAKER: The alternative is the man whose name I try not to say.

KING (on camera): Well, I'll say it. When we sit -- as we sit here today the likely alternative is Donald Trump.

BAKER: Right.

KING: Would that be enough to motivate people even if maybe they're a little eh on Biden?

BAKER: I think so.

KING (voice-over): Joanna Brooks is one such voter. She owns a yoga studio just across the Milwaukee line in Glendale.

JOANNA BROOKS, MILWAUKEE VOTER: All right, you all.

KING: Like many we met in the city, Brooks says black voters get taken for granted.

BROOKS: Black people in general I think tend to be pretty loyal to the Democratic Party. And sometimes I wonder, just based on how that party has performed thus far for people of color, if we should continue to be.

KING: But Brooks says that accountability exercise must wait until after 2024 because of constant Republican attacks on abortion rights and voting rights.

BROOKS: I grew up almost certain that my rights were guaranteed, right? I took it for granted. And now as I sit and watch the work of so many black folks during the civil rights movement, so many women who fought for women's rights, when I see all of their work slowly being undone that was a wake-up call for me for sure. You have to fight.

KING: Eric Jones is no Trump fan but he thinks it's foolish to bet on Trump motivating black turnout.

ERIC JONES, MILWAUKEE VOTER: I get people saying they're not going to vote. That's my fear that they see those two and they're going to say screw it, we're damned anyway.

[20:35:08]

KING: We met Jones at the fifth anniversary of the Bronzeville Collective. Several local artists sell their goods here. It is a source of smiles and hope in a community often defined by poverty and a high incarceration rate.

JONES: When the factories and the manufacturing left, jobs left. When jobs leave and opportunities leave then you have certain things that are domino effects, right?

KING: Jones says the president should stop by and learn a lesson.

JONES: You bring opportunities, you bring jobs, you get votes, plain and simple.

KING: For the president, it is the mood a year from now that matters most, but the mood today is bleak.

(On-camera): If you're Joe Biden and you want to be reelected you'd have a problem today, right?

JOHNSON: Yes, he would. He would have a big problem.

KING (voice-over): Johnson's work could well help the president, but listen.

(On-camera): If it were just Biden and Trump, who would you vote for?

(LAUGHTER)

JOHNSON: That's just a tough one.

KING (voice-over): A young man who says the country needs big change, determined to boost Milwaukee's black turnout, yet not sure who gets his vote.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA: And our thanks to John King for that reporting.

In the meantime, antisemitic attacks and graffiti are rising here in the United States but also in Europe. Coming up next, a key European official who is also Jewish joins us to talk about this problem. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:40:25]

ACOSTA: Antisemitism was already rising across Europe even before the shocking events of October 7th. But since then, an exploding wave of hatred has occurred since. Swastikas outside a Jewish cemetery in Vienna. Stars of David spray painted in Paris, evoking the 1930s and bringing some residents to tears.

And joining us here to talk about this in Washington is Clement Beaune. He is France's transportation minister and has been described by some as a rising political star in France. He's a Jewish man. Some of his relatives died at Auschwitz.

Welcome, Clement, Minister. Thank you very much for your time. We appreciate it. did you ever expect to see this level of antisemitism that we're seeing right now not only in Europe but here in the United States and all around the world?

CLEMENT BEAUNE, TRANSPORTATION MINISTER, FRANCE: Yes, as you say, it's a global threat. Unfortunately, it's not a new thing in our democratic and recent history. We know it in Europe very well. My own family came from Ukraine and had to experience this in France a few decades afterwards. And now it's coming back again. Since October 7th, actually we are seeing a rise in the number of acts. We've seen in France that we had 1,000 acts of antisemitism whether it's just words or physical aggressions in the country in the last few weeks.

We're fighting very hard. I think we should be clear. There's no way and space for antisemitism. So our police, our justice, if I take the case of France, are acting very strongly to get the people who are doing this, to sanction them very fiercely and very quickly. Half of the cases that we have identified have been leading to sanctions already. So we have to be very clear to the Jewish community, we are protecting you. And to any person who would have some idea or action of antisemitism, that we will be very tough.

ACOSTA: But I imagine because of what has taken place since October 7th and this war that is going on between Israel and Hamas, that this may just be a new normal, that we may be experiencing this for months as Israel conducts its campaign to take out Hamas in the Gaza Strip. Do you think Europe, the United States, people in those parts of the world have to brace themselves for this to continue, for these types of incidents to continue?

BEAUNE: Unfortunately, the threat is there. And antisemitism has a long history in Europe. Every time there is an event that for people could justify such hatred, we have to fight it even harder. But we have to be very simple and very clear. We will not tolerate such a wave to take place and to happen in France or wherever in Europe. And there can be discussions. There can be debates about what happens in the Middle East, what happens in Israel's response to the horrible attacks of October 7th.

But it can never, never, ever justify any type of antisemitism. Public debates, public questions, yes. But antisemitism against the Jewish community anywhere, taking my country in France, we can never tolerate that. So the message is that we are very tough on this. We will not tolerate that. We will not justify it in any manner.

ACOSTA: And this weekend, we saw protest marches around the world, including in France and of course here in Washington. I'm sure you saw some of the footage that was captured outside the White House. It got very intense there last night. What do you make of this growing outcry against Israel for this military response in Gaza right now?

BEAUNE: What we see in France in particular, but I think it's the same in many democracies, in the U.S., in many European countries, is that you have people who are maybe sincerely questioning -- they question the IDF, the number of civilian victims, which are things that we should respect the rules. Israel should respect international law, which is our position. It's a clear right to defend itself, but it should be doing this in the framework of international law.

This is a message that is understandable, of course, but some demonstrations and in France we had to forbid some of them, are very different because they are re demonstrations of hatred, of antisemitism, and this cannot be justified in any manner. We have to distinguish between these two types of messages. In one case, there is a debate. In another case, there is just something which is forbidden by law and that should be fought very strongly.

ACOSTA: And how do we get the Arab and Jewish communities talking to one another in a constructive way? You've been talked about as somebody who may run for mayor of Paris. Obviously this is something that you will have to deal with as your political star rises back in France.

[20:45:01]

Both sides are so far apart right now, and the emotions are running so high right now, it's hard to imagine these kinds of discussions that need to take place happening.

BEAUNE: We have to be very clear that what happens in the Middle East has to be qualified for what it is. It is first a terrorist attack against Israel. That should be very simple and very clear. There is a right, again, of Israel to respond and to defend its people, its territory. This response should be in the framework of international law. This is not a war between Israelis and Palestinians.

This is not a war between Jews and Muslims. It should be very clear. And any kind of shortcuts which is put in the public debate, usually for electoral reasons based on political parties to say that you're Muslims, so you should be in (INAUDIBLE). Not only Palestinians but even Hamas. This is not acceptable as a speech. And it is not helping anyone. It's not helping Palestinians. Hamas is not helping in any manner the Palestinian cause or the Palestinian fight.

This is very different. And in our countries, in France we have the biggest Jewish community of Europe, and we have the biggest Muslim community of Europe. We should say as politicians very clearly, this is not a fight between communities. This is not a fight between (INAUDIBLE). There is a terrorist group calls Hamas which attacked Israel. Israel should respond and respect international law. This is it.

ACOSTA: We talked about how your family came from Odesa, your ancestors came from Odesa in Ukraine. Are you concerned about, and is President Macron concerned about the focus coming off of the Ukrainians right now and their struggle against the Russians because there are so many eyes around the world focused on the Middle East right now, on what's happening in Gaza?

BEAUNE: You're right. This is an important question. We should, of course, not forget what happens in Ukraine. We should not in any manner decrease or minimize our support to Ukraine. We are bringing, as you, very strong civilian support to Ukraine. This should go on, and there should be no signal sent to Russia in particular that our focus has been diverted and that we are not caring anymore about what happens in Ukraine.

We are. And we are supporting Ukraine as the U.S. is doing, especially with strong military support. We are doing our part as you. Actually a big part because what we sometime read or say but it is very important to do both, and it's in a way the same fight, for democracies, for values that we should respect everywhere and that should prevail everywhere.

ACOSTA: All right. Minister Clement Beaune, thank you very much for your time. We appreciate it.

BEAUNE: Thank you very much.

ACOSTA: Thanks for stopping in Washington with us.

BEAUNE: Thank you.

ACOSTA: And we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:52:04]

ACOSTA: Secretary of State Tony Blinken is calling for humanitarian pauses in the fighting in Gaza. But while meeting with Middle East leaders, he said that a ceasefire would allow Hamas to regroup and carry out more attacks against Israel. One of those leaders, the Queen of Jordan spoke with CNN earlier and to explain why she believes that argument is ill-advised.

CNN's Becky Anderson has more.

BECKY ANDERSON, CNN ANCHOR: Jim, we've seen consistent and united calls across this region for a ceasefire, including from Jordan's Queen Rania. Israel has flatly rejected those calls. And when Arab leaders met with Antony Blinken in Aman on Saturday, the U.S. secretary of state reaffirmed Washington's stance that a ceasefire would only enable Hamas to commit more attacks like the one on October 7th. Queen Rania said that position was shortsighted. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUEEN RANIA AL ABDULLAH, JORDAN: If you managed to eliminate all of Hamas, what next? The root cause of this conflict is an illegal occupation. It is a routine human rights abuses, illegal settlements, disregard to U.N. resolutions and international law. If we do not address these root causes, then you can kill the combatant, but you cannot kill the cause.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: And she went on to say that the death of civilians will only further the cause of Hamas and not bring peace to Israel. Israel has insisted that it is doing its best to protect civilians and blames the terror group for using civilians as human shields. Queen Rania cited how Israel has used its evacuation orders and why she doesn't think those claims stand up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AL ABDULLAH: Never mind the evacuation orders are sent online or on television knowing that there's no electricity in Gaza since the beginning of this war. These evacuation orders, I do not believe, are for the benefit of the Gaza civilians. They're not the target audience. The rest of the world is. It is Israel's attempt to try to legitimize their actions. And when it comes to human shields, I think we need to defer to international law.

Of course the use of human shields is criminal. But even if one side puts a civilian in harm's way, that civilian is still entitled to full protection under international humanitarian law. That is the global standard, and no nation is exempt. In a place like Jabalia, which is one of the most crowded corners of Gaza, Gaza being one of the most densely populated spots on earth, civilian death is not incidental. It is not accidental. It is a foregone conclusion. And that makes it a war crime.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: Jabalia is the refugee camp in northern Gaza, where civilians have been sheltering in U.N. schools.

[20:55:02]

It's been hit on multiple occasions, including on Saturday. And at the end of the conversation, Queen Rania had a really poignant message for those who continue to stand behind Israel. She said that if you are an ally to Israel, you need to give them the uncomfortable truth that they have crossed the line, she said.

Well, that's Queen Rania's position, and it really speaks to the frustrations that you hear across this part of the world, the Arab world that we've been reporting on and from for weeks -- Jim.

ACOSTA: Becky Anderson with that very important interview. Thank you very much. We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ACOSTA: Tonight the Buffalo Bills face the Bengals in Cincinnati, marking the return --