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Donald Trump Civil Fraud Trial Tomorrow; Trump Calls Threat To Democracy A Hoax; Six Dead, Dozens Hurt After Tornadoes Hit Tennessee. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired December 10, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:02:31]

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: All right, hello again, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me, I'm Fredricka Whitfield in New York today.

All eyes will be on a New York City courtroom tomorrow as former President Donald Trump is expected to retake the witness stand in the high stakes trial that threatens his business empire.

New York Attorney General Letitia James is suing Trump for $250 million and seeking to bar him from doing business in the state. He is accused of fraudulently inflating the value of his properties.

Trump's attorney told reporters that she tried to dissuade the former president from testifying again while he is under a gag order, but she claims Trump insists on testifying.

CNN's Zachary Cohen joining us now.

Zach, set the stage for what we might expect tomorrow.

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, Fred.

Trump's own lawyers suggesting we could hear more of the same from the former president who has really gone out of his way to attack the judge, the attorney general, and the case itself in New York surrounding his business and his business dealings.

Now, last time he took the stand, we also heard Trump defend his properties, his brand, suggesting, for example, that his Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida was worth a billion dollars, but you know, it's important remember that the judge in this case, has already ruled that Trump and his co-defendants, including his kids are liable in this case.

So it raises the question, why is Trump so adamant about taking the stand again, in this case, despite the risks and especially the risk of being cross examined by the attorney general again? Take a listen to how Trump's lawyer though explained his reasoning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALINA HABBA, DONALD TRUMP ATTORNEY AND SPOKESPERSON: He still wants to take the stand, even though my advice is at this point, you should never take the stand with a gag order. But he is so firmly against what is happening in this court and so firmly for the old America that we know, not this America, that he will take that stand on Monday.

He will open himself up to whatever they want, because he's not afraid. People that are afraid cower. President Trump doesn't cower. We'll be back on Monday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Z. COHEN: So of course, this case is very personal for Trump. It's in the state of New York. It deals with his family business, but it also comes as he is ramping up his campaign to be the next president of the United States and the image of a good businessman, the image of also that the justice system is out to get him is a central part of his campaign message.

So tomorrow's hearing could provide a window into how we see Trump handle his criminal cases and criminal trials in the next year or so as he also runs to be the next president of the United States.

WHITFIELD: All right, lots to watch. Zach Cohen, thanks so much.

So on the campaign trail, Trump is now trying to downplay and dismiss warnings that his victory in 2024, a potential victory in 2024, would represent a threat to democracy.

[15:05:10]

Last week, Trump claimed he would only be a dictator on day one of his presidency if re-elected. He has also openly talked about how he would weaponize government to exact retribution against his enemies. if re- elected.

CNN's Alayna Treene joining us right now.

Alayna, Trump spoke about these warnings last night. What more is he saying?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Yes, well, Fred, Donald Trump was speaking to an event hosted by the New York Young Republican Club in New York, and he really doubled down on some of the remarks he made earlier this week in a townhall with Fox News, where he said that he would be a dictator for one day if he reclaimed the White House in order to rebuild or build a wall, excuse me, and to drill, drill, drill.

But as you mentioned, Fred, he also tried to undercut the narrative being pushed by some of his critics that if he were to win the election, he would be a threat to democracy. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In the past few weeks, the radical left Democrats and their fake news allies have unveiled their newest hoax that Donald J. Trump and the Republican Party are a threat to democracy. Do you believe that?

That's what it is, it's a hoax. It's a new -- we call it now, the threat to democracy hoax. That's just what it is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: Now, Fred, he also repeated claims last night that he thinks that Joe Biden is actually the, "real threat to democracy" while speaking to that supportive crowd.

But I do just want to point out a couple of quick things here. One is that there is a growing concern among Republicans, but also without within the inner circle that Donald Trump keeps, that his continuing ramped up rhetoric on this, talking about democracy and dictatorship and authoritarianism isn't really playing well beyond his loyal base, that this could really hurt him if we were to potentially win the nomination and advance to a general election, that this wouldn't play well with those voters.

But it is also creating an opening, him continuing to talk about this for Democrats and Joe Biden. What they really want to do is not only try to paint the 2024 election as a general election rematch between Trump and Joe Biden, but they also want to make it a choice between authoritarianism and democracy, and so him continuing to talk about this is really creating an opening for Democrats -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, point made. Alayna Treene, thank you so much.

All right, joining me right now to talk about Trump's comments and more is Alex Isenstadt. He is a national political reporter for POLITICO, also with me is Max Cohen, a congressional reporter for Punchbowl News. Good to see both of you.

All right, Alex, you first. So Trump is trying to flip these warnings about him being a threat to democracy by casting Biden as the real danger, as you just heard, and that may work with his base. But you just heard Alayna say, you know, this message just might not work with independents and moderate Republicans who have said already outright that he is a threat to democracy, and that's why many of them are no longer backing Trump.

So would you be in agreement with what Alayna was saying, some folks think this is an opening now for Biden.

ALEX ISENSTADT, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, POLITICO: Yes, so look, here is the issue that Trump faces here, which is that, if you're Joe Biden, your poll numbers aren't looking great right now. You're losing to Trump in a lot states.

So if you're Biden, what do you have to do? You have to disqualify Donald Trump. You have to disqualify your opponent. You've got to raise his negatives.

And so what we are going to see Biden do in the months to come is he is going to paint Trump as an extremist. You're already seeing his campaign do this. Biden has been labeling Republicans as MAGA extremists, and so to the Biden campaign, they're going to be looking for openings. They're going to be looking for ways to paint Trump as way too far to the right for the general electorate.

WHITFIELD: And Max, I mean, even some of Trump's biggest supporters are warning him to kind of tone it down, tone down the retribution rhetoric.

Take a listen to Kevin McCarthy, the former House Speaker right now.

All right, do we have that soundbite of the former House speaker?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): What President Trump needs to do in this campaign, it needs to be about rebuilding, restoring, renewing America. It can't be about revenge.

ROBERT COSTA, CBS NEWS CORRESPONDENT: He is talking about retribution, day in day out.

MCCARTHY: He needs to stop that. He needs to stop that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Well, Max, the question is, is Trump listening? Is he listening to you know, former House speaker or anybody about that?

MAX COHEN, CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER, PUNCHBOWL NEWS: Yes, you know, even Kevin McCarthy later on in that interview mentioned, you know, he was deposed from his own role as House speaker, so maybe he's not the best position to give advice to the former president.

I think it's a good point. You know, you have many of Trump's allies on the Hill and even folks who want to see Republicans succeed, saying this election needs to be about the future, not the past.

[15:10:15]

And I think the big warning sign for many Republicans was the 2022 midterms, when Donald Trump-endorsed candidates struggled, when the message about the election lies did not resonate in key battleground states.

I think there's a lot of concern, as you mentioned, among the GOP, that if this is a repeat of 2022, and if we are still talking about the 2020 election, that's just going to help Joe Biden say, look, Trump is too extreme and not focused on the real issues that Americans care about.

WHITFIELD: And Alex, to pick up more on what you were saying, you know, Biden is already in fact using Trump's words against him on the campaign trail, telling donors at a fundraiser in California this weekend: "The greatest threat Trump poses is to our democracy."

The president went on to slam Trump's role in the January 6th attack on the US Capitol saying: "It's despicable, simply despicable." So Max, is this the type of messaging from Biden, in front of the cameras and before the crowds that you believe we're going to see more of?

M. COHEN: I think so. I think you always hear Biden say, do not compare me to the Almighty, compare me to the alternative, namely, Donald Trump, and I think that's Biden's best bet right now.

Voters largely are not happy with the economy. Voters say they don't like the direction the country is going. And if Biden can't run on his own record, he has to run on the fear that Donald Trump will do the extreme things Donald Trump is saying he will do if re-elected.

WHITFIELD: Alex, how do you see it?

ISENSTADT: Yes, I totally agree with Max. And look, I mean, in 2012, when Barack Obama was running for re-election, he turned the election into a referendum between him and Mitt Romney, and you had a similar situation with Obama, where his numbers weren't so great at certain points during that election year.

And so, when you're an incumbent whose numbers aren't great, what you try to do is you try to turn the election into a choice and not a referendum on yourself.

And so that's what you're seeing Biden starting to do here, what he is attempting to do here.

WHITFIELD: All right, we will leave it there for now.

Alex Isenstadt, Max Cohen, thanks to both of you, gentlemen.

ISENSTADT: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: All right, and this breaking news right now into CNN: The White House says Ukrainian President Zelenskyy will visit President Biden in Washington on Tuesday, and it comes as aid talks with Congress have stalled.

Senior White House reporter, Kevin Liptak joining us now with more on this.

Kevin, what do you have?

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, the White House just announcing this in the last couple of moments. The press secretary is saying that President Biden in this meeting on Tuesday would underscore the United States' unshakable commitment to supporting the people of Ukraine, as they defend themselves against Russia's brutal invasion.

But he would also talk about in this meeting with Zelenskyy, the urgent needs of the Ukrainians on the battlefield right now, and the vital importance, as she puts it, of the United States' continued support at this critical moment. And it is a critical moment as lawmakers debate this $60 billion that President Biden has asked for additional assistance for Ukraine, and we have heard over the course of today, from lawmakers who are indicating that those talks are not necessarily breaking through that. They do not necessarily have an agreement that would tie this Ukraine funding to new rules for the border, which is what Republicans have hoped for.

And certainly the hope by inviting President Zelenskyy to Washington in this sort of dramatic show of commitment that that will unlock some of these talks in some ways, and this will be Zelenskyy's third visit to Washington since this war broke out and that each moment at each of these visits, his aim has really been to try and convince some skeptics in Washington that American assistance is still necessary for the Ukrainians as they work to deter Russia's aggression.

And I think the challenge for Zelenskyy and these talks will be trying to show that there is sort of a path forward for Ukraine on the ground there as they remain bogged down in this counteroffensive that hasn't necessarily yielded much ground when it comes to the battlelines in Ukraine.

And so Zelenskyy certainly, a dramatic visit, might question, and we don't know the answer to this yet is whether he'll be meeting with Republicans on Capitol Hill, some of whom have remained very skeptical about providing additional assistance for Ukraine.

And so certainly, this will be an important moment as President Biden tries to secure those billions of dollars in new assistance -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Yes, potentially pivotal. All right, Kevin Liptak, thanks so much.

Still to come, crews are searching for survivors after tornadoes leave at least six dead in Tennessee. We are live outside Nashville, next.

[15:15:03]

And later, the US Secretary of State warning that Israel needs to do more to protect civilians and provide humanitarian aid as operations in southern Gaza continue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: All right, welcome back.

The East Coast is now experiencing the same storm system that spawned deadly tornadoes in Tennessee. Six people were killed, at least 53 injured and countless buildings are pulverized or simply in pieces.

This traffic camera caught what is believed to be a tornado as it mowed down power stations in the Nashville area. The Tennessee Emergency Management says early reports indicate that 13 tornadoes hit the state.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh [bleep]. Oh my God.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[15:20:11]

WHITFIELD: The video shows a suspected tornado in Madison just north of Nashville. Three people were killed there. Reportedly, a toddler was among the victims.

Emergency officials say the other three tornado victims were in Clarksville again, including a child. Survivors describe the power of the twister there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The walls burst. The windows burst. Everything just like exploded is what it really felt like. I feel like everything exploded, like a lot of pressure built up and just popped..

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: CNN's Rafael Romo is in Madison, Tennessee.

Rafael, what are you seeing there? How are people doing?

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Fred, people are very sad as you can imagine, and I wanted to show you how powerful the tornado that hit this area was, how devastating the force of the winds was.

This is what remains of a utility pole. It snapped, Fred, like a matchstick, and it is not the only one we've seen and it is a similar thing that has happened to many trees in the area. That's what remains of the utility pole.

And many, many trees have been uprooted and have fallen on top of houses, and so, there is great devastation here and it is a very, very sad day for Tennessee.

And you mentioned before, in this community here in the Madison neighborhood, in the north side of Nashville, three people died, including a child. There was an additional three people who died about 70 miles northwest of here in Clarksville, including a minor, and that's the reason why the governor here has declared a state of emergency.

Throughout the day, we've been talking to people who are coming back and trying to recover whatever they can, but many say that they just feel fortunate to be alive today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROMO: Some of your most precious possessions.

MARCY CHANCE, TORNADO SURVIVOR: My most precious possessions are my kids. You know, everything else is replaceable. Lives and my kids are not.

ROMO: How are you doing today, ma'am?

CHANCE: I have good times and bad times. I went over to check. I have elderly parents and that's where I'd been. I go check on them and make sure everything is okay at their house and everything is good over there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROMO: And Fred, the cleanup effort is only beginning. Another challenge that authorities are facing here is the fact that many people remain without power. The local power utility says that 26,000 customers remain without the service and this is after 80,000 were put back on service this morning.

Fred, back to you.

WHITFIELD: All right, Rafael Romo. It is a terrible, terrible scene there. Thank you so much. We'll check back with you.

The Israeli military says they have struck more than 250 targets across Gaza in the last 24 hours, the very latest on the fighting and the growing humanitarian crisis when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:27:14]

WHITFIELD: A fierce battle underway today in southern Gaza. The Israeli military is warning Khan Yunis civilians to evacuate to facilities on the coast. New strikes there today sending thick black smoke into the air.

Israel Defense Forces say they have struck more than 250 targets across Gaza in the last 24 hours. The official Palestinian news agency reports dozens of civilians were killed at the Jabalya Refugee Camp during a series of Israeli air raids.

CNN's Alex Marquardt is tracking the latest developments from Tel Aviv.

Alex, what more are you learning?

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, that fighting in the north that you just mentioned, Fred, around the Jabalya Refugee Camp indicates that Israel really does not have full control of the north. They are still facing fierce fighting with Hamas militants around what they are calling strongholds of persistent resistance in the Shuja'iyya neighborhood, as well as around Jabalya, where, as you mentioned, 45 civilians are believed to have been killed in an airstrike on a house that is, according to the Palestinian WAFA News Agency.

And then, so much of the Israeli focus has been on the southern city of Khan Yunis, where they say that they believe that a number of top Hamas leaders may be again, a Palestinian news agency saying that dozens of people were killed, civilians killed in homes that were targeted in the northern part of Khan Yunis, as well as the eastern part.

We did see on Saturday night an alert from the IDF calling on civilians and residents in central Khan Yunis to leave, to evacuate. They called it an urgent appeal, they specified five specific areas to leave and to go towards an open area where Israel says that there are established shelters.

It is unclear given the lack of communication in the Gaza Strip, how many civilians and residents if any are able to get that message, and it is also unclear what established shelters there actually are in that southwestern pocket that Israel was talking about -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: And that the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is worsening by the day. So how are Gaza civilians holding up? What are they doing?

MARQUARDT: Not well at all. The situation is getting increasingly dire by the hour.

Top humanitarian agencies, including the UN and many others, really sounding the alarm and using all kinds of superlatives to describe how truly awful the situation has become.

We heard the UN secretary-general earlier today talking about how there is a severe risk of collapse in Gazan society. He also talked about the situation fast deteriorating into catastrophe.

There are also some criticism by the Secretary of State Antony Blinken who was on CNN earlier today about the care with which, or the lack of care that Israel is taking when it comes to the safety of civilians.

[15:30:10]

Blinken has been describing it, and he did again today about the gap between Israel's intent to protect civilians and what exactly is playing out on the grounds. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, US SECRETARY OF STATE: I think the intent is there, but the results are not always manifesting themselves and we see that both in terms of civilian protection and humanitarian assistance.

We want even as Israel has taken additional steps, for example, to designate safe areas in the south to focus on neighborhoods, not entire cities in terms of evacuating them, what we are not seeing sufficiently is a couple of things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: And Fred, Blinken said that there needs to be a lot more clarity about times, places, routes for aid, and there also needs to be clarity on that messaging that we've been talking about so much to make sure that civilians are getting the messages about where is safe, where they can go, and when they can return home -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, Alex Marquardt, thanks so much.

Back in this country, the University of Pennsylvania president steps down. What next for the university and its students? I'll talk to a student at Penn, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:35:32]

WHITFIELD: At Harvard University today, two different boards are meeting as the school's president becomes the latest Ivy League leader to come under fire following her testimony on Capitol Hill to Congress.

I'd like to bring in now CNN reporter, Matt Egan.

Matt, what are you learning about these meetings?

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Well, Fredricka, we know that Harvard and its president are under enormous pressure following that disastrous hearing this past Tuesday before Congress and we have learned that Harvard's governing boards are meeting on campus today. That's according to a person close to the boards.

We are talking specifically about the Harvard Corporation and the Board of Overseers. Those are the two entities that govern the university.

Now, this source stresses to CNN that this is not an emergency meeting. These meetings had been scheduled for some time.

Now, we don't know if calls for the resignation of Claudine Gay are the focus of these meetings. Of course, that's got to be the elephant in the room.

Within minutes of last night's breaking news that the president of the University of Pennsylvania and the chair of the Board of Trustees had stepped down, minutes later we heard from Republican Congresswoman Elise Stefanik, and she put out on social media, she said: "One down two to go," and she directly criticized Claudine Gay again over the testimony before Congress.

Now Claudine Gay has tried to do some damage control the day after the hearing. She put out a statement on social media trying to clarify her message. The uproar though, continued, and then she did give an interview with the "Harvard Crimson," the school paper where she outright apologized for how that hearing went and how her statements were construed.

We did though still hear pressure on Harvard. There have been a bipartisan group of more than 70 lawmakers. They put out a statement on Friday calling for the president of Penn, MIT and Harvard top step down. So Fredricka, there's still a lot of pressure here on these university presidents, and we are going to be following the latest to see what comes out of these meetings.

WHITFIELD: All right, Matt Egan, let us know when you know. Thanks so much.

All right, all of this while Penn must figure out how to move on following the resignation of its president, Liz Magill yesterday.

Jewish and Muslim students on college campuses across the country report feeling increasingly unsafe following the October 7th Hamas attacks.

Here to discuss is Elan Roth, a Jewish student leader and president of an interfaith club at Penn.

Elan, glad you could be with us.

So what's your reaction now to the resignation of your university president, Liz Magill?

ELAN ROTH, PRESIDENT OF THE INTERFAITH CLUB, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA: Thank you for having me. It's kind of like, finally we're here. We are able to move on somewhere that we can improve.

I'm really curious and hopeful in the changes that can happen in our school administration, and exactly what you said, Jewish students, Muslim students alike are just feeling really scared on campus.

And we're here to learn, we are not here to fight over our identities. We're really at school to learn and to not feel safe on campus is really concerning.

WHITFIELD: And all that has been going on with your campus, Elan, and in the Israel-Hamas conflict, I mean, all of this hits very close to home for you. I understand that you studied in Jerusalem, you made close friends, both Jewish and Muslim. And now some of those friends are either fighting in the Israel Defense Forces, or in the case of your friend, Omer Neutra, actually being held hostage by Hamas.

He wore a beard in an image that you saw and now you have been growing your beard for him in solidarity. So how are you managing all of this, plus the stresses of what it is to be a college junior?

ROTH: I guess, in response to that, I don't even know how I'm managing, if I'm even managing to do so.

So exactly what you said, I spent a gap year studying with a mixed in American and Israeli program in which we really prioritized dialogue within the Jewish community, as well as outside of it in order to see how we can improve as a people, as a religious people and half of my friends, about 30 of those kids are now fighting in the Army.

And as much as I'm here and trying to remove myself from the politics going on there, I fear for their lives. I'm checking in with them.

[15:40:10]

I'm texting them constantly, and for them to respond to me saying, oh my God, I heard Penn is in the news. How are you feeling? Are you okay? It's a really interesting dynamic that's going on there. Especially with my friend, Omer.

Omer was protecting villages when he was taken, and we have not heard anything about him in nearly two months, and this is, though it's not the best look on my face, I can agree to that, I stand there kind of trying to think of him.

This conflict hit so close, and for that reason, it's just so difficult to really -- I mean, I should be studying for a math final right now, at this point, if we're being honest.

WHITFIELD: I know, you continue to pray and worry about your friend.

So I wonder, you know --

ROTH: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: If you can -- yes, our hearts go out to you and everyone involved related to Omer.

So is there a way to kind of describe the feeling on campus regarding antisemitism and Islamophobia. You had just mentioned at the top of the interview that it's a shame that so many of you, students are feeling scared.

But talk to me about what the feeling on campus is? You know, that in light of the criticism about how your university president answered questions about campus policy and threatening language as it relates to genocide, which all led to her resignation, ultimately.

ROTH: Yes. So on campus, though, I can only speak of the people that I interact with, the things that I'm seeing, everyone's feeling a little unease. Just because there's been divisions that have been kind of spread throughout the communities on campus.

Through the Interfaith Club, we've really been working with the Jewish community and the Muslim community, in order to try to heal these bonds that were afraid the administration has kind of created these tensions. So, we're really here, just to try to bring these groups back together, because people feel afraid and they feel hurt, and reasonably so, it's really just an -- it's an awful place to kind of have to be to learn right now when there's so many distractions going on outside the classroom.

So students all alike, though I can't speak for everyone, are just feeling really worried about what the future holds.

WHITFIELD: Elan Roth, thanks so much for being with us today. Of course, we wish you the best, we wish the best of the entire student body there at the University of Pennsylvania. And of course, continue to hold out hope and pray for your friend, Omer.

Thanks so much.

ROTH: Thank you so much.

WHITFIELD: All right, we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:46:57]

WHITFIELD: All right, this breaking news now. This afternoon, former President Donald Trump says he will not testify in court in New York tomorrow after all.

CNN's Zach Cohen, joining us with the very latest as to why the change of heart.

Z. COHEN: Yes, Fred quite a reversal from former President Donald Trump after his lawyers had said he was adamant about testifying for a second time in this New York civil trial. You know, now coming out with a statement through Truth Social saying, maybe thought better of it.

He is casting this case as to election interference. He calls it a witch hunt, and continues to attack prosecutors and the judge in this case, but ultimately, it does signify a walk back by President Trump, whose lawyer did say just a couple of days ago that he wanted to -- he was not going to back down, he was not going to capitulate to what prosecutors and the judge in this case wanted.

It seems now that he or his lawyers have thought better of it, and Trump is no longer scheduled to appear tomorrow in this New York civil case.

WHITFIELD: Okay. Very interesting.

All right, Zach Cohen, thank you so much. Can't wait to find out the why behind all of that.

All right, European lawmakers are taking a huge step forward with historic legislation that will regulate the use of artificial intelligence. The legislation does set out to promote the use of AI, but it will also ban all practices, quoting now "... considered to be a clear threat to people's safety, livelihoods and rights."

I want to bring in now, Gary Marcus to talk about all of this. He's a professor emeritus at NYU. He's also the host of "Humans versus Machines" podcast and author of the book, "Rebooting AI."

Okay, good to see you, Professor. So will these new regulations potentially change how we all use AI, particularly in Europe, or maybe even beyond?

GARY MARCUS, PROFESSOR EMERITUS AT NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: Well, the first change will be in Europe. You know, we in North America are not directly affected, and we should talk about that.

But yes, it is going to have a profound effect in the EU, we've gone from a regime where there's essentially no regulation on AI whatsoever, unlike food, medicine, airplanes, cars, and so forth to a regime where there really is some regulation, and that is important because current AI is not very reliable. It is fun to play with, but it's not necessarily safe.

And so the EU has done something really momentous and really fundamentally important to finally have some regulation around AI.

I'm sure it's not perfect, but it's a real line in the sand that people care, and I hope that that will have an effect over here in the United States soon.

WHITFIELD: Well, how influential might it be? I mean, because we are talking about a completely different, you know, enterprise of doing business in the US, but do you see that what the EU is doing could potentially influence how America embraces or restricts AI?

MARCUS: I think, it will have both a direct and an indirect effect. So the direct effect is American companies want to do business in the EU and so they have to deal with those regulations so those regulations for example require some amount of transparency if companies are going to do that in the EU, they might as well do it in the US.

[15:50:11]

So in the way that the GDPR around data has had some indirect effect on the US, we will see some of that.

And then, I think they'll be pressure on the United States. So the executive office just passed a really important or put forward a really important executive order, that is the US' attempt to regulate AI, but because the executive office does not have the ability to write new laws, it's pretty constrained in what it can do.

This will put pressure on the Senate and the United States to try to keep up with the EU and not look silly by not having anything with enough substance.

WHITFIELD: It sounds pretty quick that they would put this into place already. You actually spoke to the US Senate subcommittee on AI oversight. Do you believe that this country is moving a little too slow to really get ahead of what could potentially be a big problem? I mean, there may be some real great solutions that come with AI, but there's also a lot of trepidation and worry.

MARCUS: I think a lot is in Chuck Schumer's lap right now. So I was there, as you say, testifying in front of the Senate in May, and Hawley and Blumenthal who ran those proceedings, Blumenthal was the lead, put forward a bill or a framework, I guess they call it that I think actually is pretty good, but right now it's sitting on Schumer's desk and Schumer has to decide, ultimately, what legislation is put forward. So there are some good proposals. Amy Klobuchar, and John Thune, senators have also put forward together something interesting. There's an interesting bill from Ted Lieu.

There is a lot of legislation that's around, but really what we need is for the Senate and for the speaker of the Senate to come forward with something concrete that actually has substance and that's up to Chuck Schumer mostly at this point.

WHITFIELD: All right, Professor Emeritus Gary Marcus of NYU, thanks so much.

We'll be right back.

MARCUS: Thanks for having me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:56:34]

WHITFIELD: Billie Jean King is an iconic champion and a trailblazer.

CNN anchor and chief political correspondent, Dana Bash sat down with the tennis legend to learn about her career, the twists and turns of her personal life, and her fight for equality, a fight highlighted by competing against Bobby Riggs in the so-called battle of the sexes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAN: And here comes Billie Jean King --

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): A massive television audience, 90 million people worldwide watched as she made a dramatic entrance onto the court.

BILLIE JEAN KING, FORMER PROFESSIONAL TENNIS PLAYER: I didn't see the King-Riggs match until 25 years after the match.

BASH (on camera): Really?

KING: Yes, and I wish I had seen it though, because it was so clear in 1973 where we're at. Howard Cosell talked about only my looks.

HOWARD COSELL, SPORTSCASTER: A very attractive young lady and sometimes you get the feeling that if she ever let her hair grow down or shoulders, took her glasses off, you're going to have somebody vying for a Hollywood screen test.

KING: Only my looks.

He talked about Bobby's -- you know what he'd done like Hall of Famer, all his accomplishments, right?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Dana Bash joining us right now. Yes, so it's a good thing, right, I guess that she didn't see that right away.

BASH: How horrifying is that?

WHITFIELD: Yes. Horrible.

BASH: You know, and it, obviously, is a reminder, as she said, of not only the times, but why she was so eager to play this match, Fred, and obviously, made sure that she won.

She talked about with me when we spent time together about the process that she went through to prepare not just the physical preparation and training, but also the psychological training.

She watched the way that he played, she understood that he was a lot older, he was in his 50s, she was 29, and she also understood how critical it was for not just women in tennis, but for women outside of athletics, and women around the world. It was a societal moment that really did change things, and made it clear that women should be treated like men, and that was just one of course of her of her many accomplishments that all had to do with the space of equality, but specifically equal pay, equal prize money in tennis.

WHITFIELD: Yes, I mean, as a devoted champion, I mean, she studied her opponent, right, for that whole Bobby Riggs match off and she really, you know, did kind of keep it together while he had the allowance of kind of clowning around. And, you know, and really being insulting throughout the entire match, but that's an aside.

So, I wonder for her, at what point did she kind of cement her mission of fighting for equality.

BASH: She was a little girl and it really surprised me because that was one of the first questions I wanted to ask. And in this series, we really try to get a sense of what it's like to be a person who we see in soundbites or we see kind of with the klieg lights in front of them.

And her answer was, she was -- like the second time she said she picked up a tennis racket, she was in the public courts in Long Beach, California and she was at an area where she looked around and she noticed that everybody was White, the clothes were white, the shoes were white, and she thought, and was mostly men, and she thought this is just not right.

And she said, at that moment, I realized that I was going to get good at tennis and fight for equality. And she said, those two goals were always hand in hand. She didn't say, I'm going to be a tennis champion, and then once she got to that point, oh, I'm going to fight for equal pay.

She said from an early age. Those were twin goals. And I can't even imagine having that kind of sense of self and understanding of the world.

WHITFIELD: Really.

BASH: At that young age, she was like 11 or 12.

WHITFIELD: Yes, that's extraordinary. I mean, dual life mission. Yes.

BASH: Yes.

WHITFIELD: Starting very early. Well, she's extraordinary. So glad you got a chance to spend that kind of time with her. And now we get to reap the benefits to watch this incredible being Billie Jean King.

Dana Bash, thanks so much.

BASH: Thanks, Fred.

WHITFIELD: "Being Billie Jean King" airs tonight, 10:00 PM Eastern and Pacific only on CNN.