Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Ukraine's President To Make Urgent Visit To White House; Interview With Representative Seth Moulton (D-MA) About Zelenskyy's Visit And Israel's War With Hamas; Trump Doubles Down On Dangerous Rhetoric; Six Dead After Severe Storms, Tornadoes Hit Tennessee; Both UPenn's President And Board Chair Resign Amid Backlash; 2023 Nobel Peace Prize. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired December 10, 2023 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:00]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: Kevin, this came as a surprise to a lot of folks here in Washington that Zelenskyy is coming to town. But this visit is very important. Comes amid all of these stalled negotiations, dwindling support from Republicans. What does the White House think? Can they get it done?

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, very critical moment. And I don't think President Biden would invite Zelenskyy for what is essentially an 11th hour visit if he didn't think that some sort of dramatic outcome could potentially be accomplished and certainly it will be Zelenskyy's challenge as he is at the White House and he will also be on Capitol Hill to try and convince some of these skeptical Republicans that the $60 billion that President Biden has requested in additional American assistance for Ukraine could change the conditions on the battlefield somehow, try and convince them that this additional money could help change the trajectory of the war because it is true that Ukraine remains bogged down in this counteroffensive that has not necessarily changed the battle lines so far.

And so he will be at the White House meeting with President Biden. He will also be on Capitol Hill. He'll address a meeting of all senators in person. And he will also meet with the Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson. But you're already hearing some Republican pushback to this visit. The conservative Senator J.D. Vance from Ohio said that Zelenskyy will come to Washington and demand that Congress care more about his border than our own.

And it is this issue of the border that does seem to be stalling these talks because, remember, Republicans are trying to use the Ukraine aid as leverage to secure tighter restrictions on migration into the United States. President Biden has said that he is open to significant compromises when it comes to the border, and White House officials have told us that includes potential changes to the asylum rules.

But he is under pressure from a lot of different sides here. Certainly from Republicans and even some Democrats who want him to do more to curb these migration flows. But on the other side he also has progressives, immigration advocates who worry that he will essentially concede too much and revert back to some of the highly restrictive policies from the Trump administration. And President Biden has so far called the Republican proposals in these talks extreme.

Now, we did hear from the Democratic Senator Chris Murphy, who is a leader in these talks that the White House will become more engaged in them over the coming week. But certainly it is true that time is running short. The White House says that Ukraine aid will run out essentially by the end of the year and Congress really only has a little bit less than a week before it heads out on its holiday recess -- Jim.

ACOSTA: All right. The clock is ticking. Kevin Liptak, thank you very much. We appreciate it.

Let's bring in Democratic Congressman Seth Moulton of Massachusetts.

Congressman, what do you think? Is this going to get done?

REP. SETH MOULTON (D-MA): Well, I sure hope it does because it's essential to our national security. We talk a lot about how much Ukraine needs this aid. We talk a lot about how Israel needs this aid. But at the end of the day it's essential to our national security that we show our allies and our adversaries all around the globe that we are going to stand up for American values, we are going to stand up for our allies.

And if Xi Jinping is watching how we handle Vladimir Putin and his criminal invasion of Ukraine as Xi Jinping contemplates taking on Taiwan and perhaps starting World War III in the Pacific, he needs to get a strong message from America that we're not going to let adversaries like that get away with it.

MOULTON: And I'm sure you saw this and Kevin Liptak was just mentioning this a few moments ago, Ohio Republican Senator J.D. Vance said earlier today that Ukraine is going to have to cede some territory to the Russians to end this war. Let's listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. J.D. VANCE (R-OH): What's in America's best interest is to accept Ukraine is going to have to cede some territory to the Russians, and we need to bring this war to a close. When I think about the great human tragedy here, hundreds of thousands of Eastern Europeans, innocent, have been killed in this conflict, the thing that's in our interest and in theirs is to stop the killing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Congressman, what's your response to that?

MOULTON: Look, we all want to see the killing stop. Of course we would prefer that this war comes to an end. And we want it to come to an end sooner than later. But it's just not as simple as J.D. Vance seems to think. We have to send a message to Vladimir Putin that he does not win. That he will not win. That starting a criminal invasion of a sovereign nation will not reward you. Because otherwise other people like Xi Jinping that I just mentioned, they're going to start to do the same thing. So, yes, we want the war to end but we've got to make sure it ends on Ukraine's terms.

ACOSTA: And I mean, I know you have been working on this issue for some time now. What would the end of U.S. aid mean to Ukraine's ability to defend itself? We were talking to Colonel Eugene Vindman in the previous hour and he said, you know, the Ukrainians would fight on, they would continue to fight the Russians, but they would be severely hampered. What do you think?

MOULTON: Well, let me be blunt. I think they would lose.

[19:05:02]

If our aid ends I think that Ukraine would lose. I think that they're holding on, they're fighting extraordinarily well with very limited resources. I mean, the bravery that we see out of the Ukrainian troops every single day is truly inspiring. But at the end of the day they are dependent on U.S. aid. That's what's gotten them thus this far. Remember, they've defeated every expectation by simply stopping the Russian army.

Most every military analyst thought that Russia would take Kyiv in a matter of weeks. It's been a couple years. So they're doing well. But they need our aid. And that's what's at risk if the Republicans don't get their act together.

ACOSTA: And if this all boils down to giving House Republicans, Senate Republicans in some cases what they want on immigration or some of what they want on immigration, how far are Democrats willing to go? How far should the White House be willing to go? We heard Kevin Liptak say a few moments ago that there are some Democrats up on Capitol Hill who are a little nervous that the White House, the president might give away too much.

MOULTON: Well, look, I'm for increased border security but I'm also for a pathway to citizenship. And the basic deal around immigration is pretty simple. We need to strengthen our border. We also need to strengthen those pathways to citizenship for people who have earned it, people who deserve it, people like kids who came to America because their parents came over the border and through no fault of their own are sitting in limbo right here in the United States.

And at the end of the day because Republicans or many Republicans won't give in on a pathway to citizenship even though it's supported by the vast majority of Americans, we have to do an immigration deal that includes both things, the pathway to citizenship and all that that entails along with increased border security. What the Republicans are trying to do is play politics with our national security by just getting their half of the border security deal, their half of the immigration deal, and tying it to Ukraine aid.

So what we should do is separate these things, get Ukraine what it needs for its national security and for ours, and then do a separate immigration deal that solves the problem once and for all.

ACOSTA: And what about aid to the Israelis?

MOULTON: Well, again, that should be part of our national security picture. So I don't want to see that tied up with our border, our immigration debate either. That's essential for our national security as well as Israel's national security. This is the piece I keep emphasizing, Jim, because folks need to realize that this isn't just about supporting our allies. It's about sending a message to our enemies all around the globe that we're going to stick together, that Western democracies are going to stick together, so you can't get away with the kind of criminal activity perpetrated by Vladimir Putin.

There are a lot of other bad people around the world who want to do the same thing. Look to Iran. Look to China. So this is essential to our national security. Now, having a strong border is important to our national security as well. But by the way, so is having a pathway to citizenship because I want people to come here, I just want them to come here legally. So let's do that immigration deal that's really not that complicated and at the same time make sure we're getting our allies what they need to win.

ACOSTA: It sounds like it's awfully complicated, bundling all of these issues together and trying to pass some large bill that ties all of these matters together. Is that even feasible to get that done by the end of the week?

MOULTON: Well, again, my argument is that we shouldn't be putting them all together. But at the end of the day if that's what House and Senate leaders want to do, yes, we can do it. We're the most powerful nation on earth, Jim. We can walk and chew gum at the same time. We should be able to do this deal. We've just got to get past the politics. But for the last several months Republicans have been playing politics with our national security. Conditioning Ukraine aid on the border.

The senator from Alabama, who held up hundreds of military promotions, essentially kneecapping us by not promoting people and getting their families where they need to go with those promotions. I mean, that's unbelievably harmful to our national security, and it's all due to one Republican senator from Alabama who's never served in the military himself, doesn't know anything about serving the country.

So I said a few months ago that the Republican Party right now is a threat to our national security, and sadly that's really proving true.

ACOSTA: And Congressman, I know you have combat experience and you served during the war on terrorism, and right now Israel sees itself in the middle of a similar battle. But you've heard the Secretary of State Tony Blinken say that Israel has not gone far enough to protect innocent civilians in Gaza. What lessons are you drawing from what you've seen so far as this battle between Israel and Hamas is unfolding?

MOULTON: Well, Jim, my concern is that Israel is making some of the same mistakes that we made in the early days of Iraq and Afghanistan of fundamentally not recognizing how critical the civilian population is to actually winning the military conflict against a terrorist organization.

[19:10:14]

This isn't just a force-on-force battle like Ukraine versus Russia. This is about winning over a civilian population that's either going to go with you or going to go with the terrorists. There is a poll in the Gaza Strip just before October 7th that showed that 62 percent of Palestinians did not like Hamas. It's not a surprise. They don't want to live under a terrorist regime. But I'd be concerned about what that poll would show today because if Israel kills too many innocent civilians it will literally push them into the arms of the opposition, into the arms of the terrorists.

And that's not in anybody's interest. We need to support Israel in its goal of eliminating Hamas. But if their killing of civilians ultimately provides more recruits for Hamas, you're going to get into this real problem where they might be creating more terrorists than they kill. And Israel simply can't win the war if that's the case. So as this humanitarian tragedy unfolds, let's be clear that Israel has a moral obligation to protect innocent Palestinian life. But it has a military obligation as well if it wants to win this conflict in the end.

ACOSTA: All right. Congressman Seth Moulton, thank you very much for your time this evening. We appreciate it.

MOULTON: Jim, thank you.

ACOSTA: All right. Coming up, doubling down on being dictator for a day and vowing political retribution. Will the Republican Party stand up to Trump's vengeful rhetoric? And later, pressure is growing on top university leaders across the country after two top Penn officials resigned following backlash to testimony on antisemitism.

The CEO of the Anti-Defamation League, Jonathan Greenblatt, he will join me live to talk about it in just a short while from now. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:16:10]

ACOSTA: Donald Trump is doubling down on his vow to be an American dictator, which he maintains would only be for one day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Baker today in the "New York Times," he said that I want to be a dictator. I didn't say that. I said I want to be a dictator for one day. But "The New York Times" said -- and you know why I wanted to be a dictator? Because I want a wall. Right? I want a wall. And I want to drill, drill, drill.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Those comments coming during an 80-minute airing of grievances last night at a soiree filled with Trump loyalists and MAGA diehards. The former president who is waging what he has called a righteous crusade touted the criminal indictments against him and took aim at his likely Democratic rival for the White House, accusing President Biden with no evidence of weaponizing the Justice Department for political purposes and suggesting that he would use a second presidential term, a second Trump term to go after Biden.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: These are Biden indictments against their -- this is just against a political opponent. But they've opened up a Pandora's box and I only can say to Joe is be very careful what you wish for because what you've done is a terrible thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Let's discuss more now with CNN's senior political commentator Scott Jennings, Democratic strategist Chuck Rocha, and former Republican congressman Joe Walsh of Illinois.

Joe, let me start with you. What do you make of all this dictator talk?

JOE WALSH (R), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN FROM ILLINOIS: Jim, two thoughts. The first thing that comes to mind is I don't think any of it is funny and I don't think we should dismiss it. Mitt Romney and so many other Republicans out there, what, seven, eight years after Trump came on the scene and they're still just trying to dismiss what this guy has said.

He said, Jim, that if he's re-elected he'll shut down media outlets he doesn't like and he'll imprison his political opponents. He has said stuff like that. Don't dismiss it. Don't laugh at it. It needs to be condemned by Republicans.

The second thing I'd say, Jim, is there's a sizable chunk of the Republican Party base that want this. They want a strongman in office which is why Trump's way ahead in the polls.

ACOSTA: Yes, I mean, Scott, I mean, we're seeing varying reactions in the GOP to what Trump has been saying. This is what Mitt Romney had to say. Let's listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): Donald Trump is kind of a human gumball machine which is a thought or a notion comes in and it comes out of his mouth. I don't attach an enormous amount of impact to the particular words that come out and try to evaluate each one of them. I do think you can look at his record as president and particularly in the last months of his presidency and say this is a dangerous approach, it's an authoritarian approach. That gives me far more concern than him playing to the crowd as he did.

(END VIDEO CLIP) ACOSTA: I mean, Scott, I think this gumball has a sour taste to it. What do you think? It seems to me that you have to take Trump for what he's saying here.

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: To me the issues that are most noteworthy are the promises for retribution. I think the dictator talk is -- you know, he's trying to get everybody worked up about that and make a point, whatever. To me, though, the retribution is the key issue. The idea that you would use the federal government to go after people. That's obviously how Trump feels that Joe Biden has played it.

But looking ahead, trying to win an election, thinking about what it would look like if you did win an election, the concept that the federal government as a promise would be weaponized for the purpose of vengeance and retribution, that really does need to stop. And that cannot be part of his campaign.

I would also say that, you know, Republicans feel the way they feel about this but I just think trying to -- if you're trying to win the race, you know, for Donald Trump eventually, that kind of talk right there is going to be an Anvil on the Republican Party's head because people do not want that promise hanging out there that our government is essentially a bludgeoning tool against the people that we hate.

[19:20:21]

ACOSTA: Yes, I mean, Chuck, I mean, in this country, I mean, I guess if Trump pulls this off he would be the first candidate where somebody has said, OK, yes, I'll vote for the guy who wants to be a dictator, I'll vote for the dictator. But let me show you this polling, Chuck, from the "Wall Street Journal." Trump beating President Biden by four points in a hypothetical rematch next year.

I mean, this extreme rhetoric, and we've been talking about this for how many years now, eight years now? It is not affecting him to a large degree.

CHUCK ROCHA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I think people don't understand that the electorate has changed. You know, it's changed a lot. And what he knows, he can read the polls like we can read the polls. He's doing really well. But he's guaranteed -- he is really, really relying on bringing new people that normally don't participate.

The folks that vote in every election, especially moderate women in the suburbs of Philadelphia or Milwaukee, they're done with Donald Trump. They've shown that in voting for Democrats over and over again, at least at the top of the ticket. And he knows he's lost some of that support. So the way as a political strategist to get new people to show up is throw them a dictator for a day thing.

Give them the grievance politics while Joe Biden is trying to say this is how many jobs we've created, here's what my plan is, we need to make sure we protect democracy. But he knows and as well as his consultants know this, is that they've got to go find new people who normally don't participate in the election, and the way that you do that is with some of the crazy talk that I think you've been hearing.

ACOSTA: Yes. And Joe, I mean, one thing that we saw this weekend is the president did this out at some fundraisers out in California. It was behind closed doors, so the remarks are not on camera. But he was going after Trump for engaging in this dictator rhetoric. Is that more of what you think we need to see from the president on this?

WALSH: I think he has to lead on this, Jim. I think this is what he did, Joe Biden, in 2022 when he talked about defending democracy, when he said democracy was on the ballot. And it squelched the so-called red wave in '22. Yes, I think Joe Biden needs to wrap himself in 2024 around democracy, and tell the American people and challenge the American people that this is an election about democracy again.

Democracy against authoritarianism because I do not believe this is a joke or dismissive talk or crazy talk by Trump. I think he believes this. And Biden's got to call it out.

ACOSTA: And Scott, I mean, the former House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, he was asked about Trump and what he's been up to and what he's saying. Let's listen to that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will Donald Trump be the nominee?

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): Yes. In the Republican Party, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can he count on your support?

MCCARTHY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's an endorsement?

MCCARTHY: I will support the president -- I will support President Trump.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you be willing to serve in a Trump cabinet?

MCCARTHY: In the right position, look, if I'm the best person for the job -- this is what I tell President Trump, too. What President Trump needs to do in this campaign, it needs to be about rebuilding, restoring, renewing America. It can't be about revenge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's talking about retribution, day in, day out.

MCCARTHY: He needs to stop that. He needs to stop that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: I mean, Scott, what's your response to what the former speaker had to say there? And I guess did you want to weigh in at all on -- I mean, it was Kevin McCarthy who resuscitated Donald Trump's career after January 6th. Then McCarthy becomes the speaker of the House. And when his job was on the line, what, in the last several weeks, I mean, Donald Trump did not really do a whole heck of a lot to try to keep Kevin McCarthy in that job. I mean, Donald Trump could have gone out there and said do not vote

against Kevin McCarthy, keep him in there as speaker. And McCarthy is no longer the speaker of the House and yet he's still going to support Donald Trump.

JENNINGS: Yes. I'm not sure whether Donald Trump could have saved him or not. I mean, the people that voted against Kevin McCarthy were pretty dug in and I'm not certain they were going to be persuaded by anybody. But you heard McCarthy sort of echo what I said earlier, which is the talk about retribution is going to cost him support in the election and that's not the way forward. I mean, Trump can make the election about things that will be winning issues. He could make it about the economy, inflation, crime, immigration, world affairs.

All of these things that you could make an election about and make it a referendum on Joe Biden, those would be winning issues and those are things people care about and those are the things where people think Joe Biden has failed. So Kevin McCarthy has been in a lot of races and he's gone through a lot of cycles. He knows a winning issue when he sees it, and he thinks the retribution issue is not a winning issue. But there's such a menu.

There's such a buffet of things on which to run that I think it's sort of puzzling to choose to not focus on that when it's clear to any political person that's where you should be.

ACOSTA: And Chuck, I mean, how would you like to see the president frame this? I mean, Joe was just saying there a few moments ago, yes, the president should be talking about democracy the way he did in 2022, it was pretty effective and so on.

[19:25:07]

Is that what -- you're a Democratic strategist. Is that what you want to hear from the president right now?

ROCHA: I've been telling my candidates whether they're running for the U.S. Senate or they're running for local city council here in D.C. that we've got to stay focused on what are you doing for the voter. The voter is frustrated. The voter still cares about crime, about the trash getting picked up on time, about rats in their alleys. That's what I hear at doors every single day when I'm walking with local candidates.

What they want to know is what are you going to do for me. They're very, very selfish. As they should be. We pay and use their tax dollars every single day. We should be delivering things for them in return for those tax dollars.

ACOSTA: But the president has been talking about Bidenomics.

ROCHA: Right. Right.

ACOSTA: And this doesn't seem to be helping him a whole heck of a lot right now. ROCHA: You're going to see folks start shifting into election mode

after the holidays, and I want to see him have a real different direction. Remember, when we were young we used to see that ad, this is your brain and this is your brain on drugs. That's what you should see, something as simple as black and white, to say, look, this is what I'm doing but look at crazy person over there. This is calm, we may not be perfect but we're going to keep plowing the field while that over there is cray-cray.

ACOSTA: All right. I think a fitting analogy to end this segment.

JENNINGS: I have to say --

ACOSTA: Yes.

JENNINGS; I totally agree. This is our economy and this is our economy on drugs. I couldn't agree more.

(LAUGHTER)

JENNINGS: We'll see if that works out.

ACOSTA: There's a lot on drugs right now, Scott, but we'll leave it there.

All right, Scott, Chuck, Joe, thanks, guys. Thanks for the time. Appreciate it.

Still ahead right now, at least six people were killed as tornadoes and severe weather tore through Tennessee. One of those victims just 2 years old. We'll take you there next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:30:43]

ACOSTA: Tonight, devastation in two Tennessee communities after deadly tornadoes ripped through yesterday. A two-year-old boy is among the six people who were killed, dozen more were injured.

A total of 25 tornadoes were reported across the region on Saturday, this one damaging electrical equipment and igniting explosion in the sky over Nashville.

CNN's Rafael Romo is near that area and the hard-hit neighborhood of Madison.

Rafael, the images from this line of tornadoes is just extraordinary, but also very destructive. A lot of damage where you are. Tell us the latest.

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Jim, very destructive.

And we have seen ourselves how powerful those tornadoes were just downing trees and powerlines and destroying many houses in this area. And Jim, let me tell you tonight, there is a community that is heartbroken and very sad. You were mentioning just a couple of moments ago that there was a two-year-old boy who had died and the Nashville Office of Emergency Management has released the identities of the three people who died here as a result of those tornadoes.

They include 37-year-old, Joseph Dalton; 31-year-old Floridema Gabriel Perez, and her son, Anthony Elmer Mendez who was only two years old.

And Jim, authorities are providing details about the terrifying events leading to the deaths of these people. What they say is that Mr. Dalton was inside his trailer when the force of the storm rolled his trailer over and it fell on top of the Perez's family, and that's how those three people died.

And let me also tell you, Jim, that there were two other children, a 10-year-old son who was the son of Dalton, and a seven-year-old boy, also the son of Floridema, who also survived the tornadoes. They are now doing well at a local hospital here with non-life threatening injuries.

But throughout the day, we have seen many people here who have come back trying to recover some of the belongings, many people after what happened here left because they were afraid about the power lines, they were afraid of being shocked, and have been returning little by little.

Many say that they don't know what they're going to do now. They don't really have any plans. And one big challenge right now for officials right here is that, how to restore power to this community.

There are as many as 36,000 customers who do not have power right now and an official with the local power company was saying that it's not going to take hours, but days before they're able to restore power to all of those people.

Jim, back to you.

ACOSTA: All right, Rafael Romo, thank you very much. Thinking of those folks there in that hard hit area. They're going through so much right now.

Rafale, thank you for the long day. Really appreciate it.

For many, this time of year is about giving back, but CNN Heroes, An All-Star Tribute salutes 10 extraordinary people who put others first all year long. The star studded gala airs live tonight at 8:00 PM. Eastern. Here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Tonight on CNN.

ESTEFANIA REBELLON, YES WE CAN WORLD FOUNDATION: We provide bilingual education for migrant and refugee children at the US-Mexico border.

ANNOUNCER: Support the extraordinary people making a difference in our world.

MIKE GOLDBERG, I.CARE: We are rebuilding the coral reefs here in the Florida Keys.

OSEI BOATENG, OKB HOPE FOUNDATION: I'm going to ensure that people in Ghana have access to health care.

DR. KWANE STEWART, PROJECT STREET VET: I see a pet in need and a person who cares for them dearly.

ADAM PEARCE, LOVEYOURBRAIN: Trauma can be a pathway for growth.

ALVIN ARBY, BARBERSHOP BOOKS: We saw child friendly reading space in the barbershop.

YASMINE ARRINGTON BROOKS, SCHOLARCHIPS: we all are connected because of the shared experience of having an incarcerated parent.

STACEY BUCKNER, OFF ROAD-OUTREACH: There should be no homeless vets. Period. None.

TESCHA HAWLEY, DAY EAGLE HOPE PROJECT: I don't want to be defined as a victim of my circumstances.

MAMA SHU, AVALON VILLAGE: I do want to make sure that they get all the attention and love that they deserve.

ANNOUNCER: CNN Heroes: An All-Star Tribute, tonight at eight on CNN.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:39:22]

ACOSTA: Tonight, an intense spotlight is on the heads of Harvard and MIT, as both the president of University of Pennsylvania and the chair of its Board of Trustees stepped down from their positions this weekend.

The dual resignations were the culmination of a highly charged week after this testimony up on Capitol Hill.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ELISE STEFANIK (R-NY): Specifically calling for the genocide of Jews, does that constitute bullying or harassment?

ELIZABETH MAGILL, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA PRESIDENT: If it is directed and severe or pervasive, it is harassment.

STEFANIK: So the answer is yes.

MAGILL: It is a context-dependent decision, Congresswoman.

STEFANIK: It's a context dependent decision. That's your testimony today calling for the of Jews is depending upon the context?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[19:40:05]

ACOSTA: Of course, we saw how President Liz Magill try to clean that up in a video later on in the week, and then the resignations that came over the weekend, and Penn students we've been talking with, they've been wondering what's next?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EITAN WEINSTEIN, JUNIOR: It became clear that President Magill didn't really seem to have a very strong grasp on the situation on the ground in campus.

JOSHUA WEISSMAN, STUDENT: There's a lot of tension on campus, and I really hope a lot of it starts to go down, and people start to calm down a little bit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Joining us now with more Jonathan Greenblatt, he is the CEO at the Anti-Defamation League. And, Jonathan, I mean, what a week this has been for the community over at Penn. What's your response to what we saw take place yesterday?

I mean, it is no small thing when the president of the university and the chair of the Board of Trustees, they both have to step down.

JONATHAN GREENBLATT, CEO AND NATIONAL DIRECTOR, ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE: Yes. I mean, it's an earthquake. This is a very rare occurrence.

But what's probably even more rare is putting a university president in front of Congress and serving her up the easiest softball to hit in human history and she misses it and she misses it, and she misses it.

But it's sort of a sign of the times really with these campuses, Jim. I mean, we've gotten to the point where there is so much, call it political correctness, call it moral relativism, and these comments about Jews, calls to kill or otherwise harm a segment of the student body are "context dependent."

There is no context in which it is appropriate or acceptable to call for violence against some of your classmates, no way.

ACOSTA: And we heard from student after student after student who just said over and over again, they don't feel comfortable on campus. And who wants to go through college in an atmosphere like that?

Do you think these resignations are enough? There is more that need to happen? There is more need to change? What do you think?

GREENBLATT: Well, I think number one, I think what you heard from the students is right. The number of antisemitic incidents is through the roof. We've tracked at ADL, an increase of over 1,000 percent of incidents on campuses year-over-year for this time period. It's crazy.

And I have heard from students saying they're moving out of dorms, they're thinking of transferring schools, because they don't feel safe, because apparently they're not. They are not being protected.

So look, Liz needed to resign. Chairman Bok needed to step down. These were the right things. People have to be held accountable if students are literally being endangered.

But now Penn needs a plan, and there are things they can do. You know, suspend the students who are inciting violence against their peers, adopt a definition of antisemitism that you can then use and bring into your DEI programs.

Can you believe most of these DEI programs, Jim, simply don't touch on antisemitism, despite the fact that Jews are far and away the most targeted religious minority in the country? It's crazy.

ACOSTA: And so what is happening across academia that has led to this do you think? What's going on?

GREENBLATT: Well, I think there are a few things. So number one, I think this sort of, this toxin of anti-Zionism, the normalization of antisemitism has poisoned a lot of these institutions, that needs to be rolled back, and I think with better education, you can inoculate these kids from that kind of ignorance. That's number one.

Number two, there are no consequences. So again, we've seen these violent -- we've seen violence, we've seen harassment. Just in the last few months, Jim, few students were suspended. None that I know of have been expelled. It is outrageous. That needs to change.

And then finally, I think these professors, look, I appreciate the tenure track, I get it. And you want to have academic freedom, but you shouldn't be free to intimidate and harass your students as is happening.

So we've really got to take a serious look at that as well.

ACOSTA: And what about Harvard? What about MIT? There are calls for resignations there. Do you want to see that happen as well? Or does the Penn case perhaps send a message that maybe things you know, we are getting cleaned up here?

GREENBLATT: I think it's just the start. There's a board meeting happening right now at Harvard. I know President Gay is under the microscope as she should be.

You know, last week, Rabbi David Wolpe, a member of her task force, resigned because he said, I've got all the responsibility, but no ability to actually change things.

Claudine Gay has to show the world that she is ready to make change, but I'm not sure that's the case.

ACOSTA: All right, do you think she should step down? GREENBLATT: I think, she might need to. She might need to. The question is whether or not she still has the confidence of the board, of the students, of the faculty. From my view on the outside, I don't have confidence.

I need to see action in order to have confidence and we've seen nothing yet.

ACOSTA: I saw a post from social media from you earlier today talking about -- to shift topics a little bit.

GREENBLATT: Yes.

ACOSTA: Denouncing Elon Musk's decision to reinstate the account of the conspiracy theorist, Alex Jones. Tell us about that.

GREENBLATT: Well, look, Alex Jones is a conspiracy theorist. He's been found guilty in court of lying and defaming people. He has violated Twitter's Terms of Service in the past.

He showed no remorse, no contrition, and apparently no willingness to change, yet, he has been re-platformed. I think that's bad for X.

[19:45:08]

It's bad for their users.

Look, and I totally believe in freedom of speech, but you're not free to cry fire in a crowded theater, and you shouldn't be free to harass other users just because their children were killed in Connecticut, or just because they happen to be Jewish.

So I think this is a bad decision.

ACOSTA: And what is going on with Elon Musk and X?

GREENBLATT: Your guess is as good as mine. He is a complicated guy.

ACOSTA: Yes.

GREENBLATT: X is a very powerful platform.

ACOSTA: You tried at times to --

GREENBLATT: Elon and I have gone back and forth for sure.

ACOSTA: Yes.

GREENBLATT: Look, the way I see it, I will criticize him and criticize a company when I think they get it wrong. And I'll credit them when I think they get it right.

I think for example, he's wrong to re-platform some of these really awful users.

ACOSTA: Yes, Alex Jones, I mean, who just preyed upon the families of Sandy Hook. It's despicable.

GREENBLATT: Sandy Hook and goes because after ADL, he's a despicable person. And again, I have -- like I criticized when Elon retweeted that White supremacist conspiracy theory, the great replacement theory a few weeks ago.

And then I credited him when he said he's going to enforce the Terms of Service to ban calls for genocide against Jews. So he's complicated.

ACOSTA: All right, Jonathan, all right, we'll keep this conversation going.

GREENBLATT: Great.

ACOSTA: Appreciate you very much.

GREENBLATT: Thank you.

ACOSTA: Jonathan Greenblatt, thanks again.

In the meantime, an Iranian activist won the 2023 Nobel Peace Prize for her work against oppression of women, but was not able to accept it as she remains in prison. Her story when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:50:58]

ACOSTA: Today, the children of jailed Iranian activist, Narges Mohammadi accepted this year's Nobel Peace Prize on her behalf and delivered the acceptance lecture, which she wrote from her prison cell in Tehran.

She said the Iranian people will dismantle despotism and that resistance is a lot.

CNN's Jomana Karadsheh has this exclusive with her family.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Ali and Kiana are preparing for the proudest moment of their lives. Today, they'll stand on the world stage here in the historic Oslo City Hall to receive the Nobel Peace Prize on behalf of their mother Narges Mohammadi.

KIANA RAHMANI, NARGES MOHAMMADI'S DAUGHTER: This is very symbolic for us. Narges is a flower in --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, I see. Okay, so --

KARADSHEH (voice over): We joined them as they got a first look at the room where they'll also present her Nobel lecture, smuggled out of Iran's Evin Prison.

(KIANA RAHMANI speaking in foreign language.)

KARADSHEH (voice over): "Standing here, I'm trying to visualize the crowd," Kiana tells us. "We will have to live up to this. A lot of important people will be here."

The 17-year-old twins' first language is French. They were not yet nine when they left Iran with their father for self-exile in Paris, after their mother was ripped away from them by a regime that has tried and failed to silence her.

ALI RAHMANI, NARGES MOHAMMADI'S SON (through translator): We are extremely proud of all that she's done, but what really saddens us today is that she's not here, because we should not be the ones being interviewed, that's my mother's right. But we will do our best to be her voice and represent what is happening in Iran.

(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE speaking in foreign language.)

KARADSHEH (voice over): Their mother who has been punished time and time again, sentenced to a total of 31 years and 154 lashes for standing up for political prisoners against the death penalty, and the compulsory hijab, and for exposing sexual assaults in prisons.

She has been accused of anti-regime propaganda and threatening national security. Her decades' long struggle for a free Iran honored in this exhibition at the Nobel Peace Center.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So we have been able to tell the story about Narges from 1979 to 1990.

KARADSHEH (voice over): Part of the exhibit is this recreation of the tiny cell where prisoners like Mohammadi and her husband, who is also a political activist were locked up during solitary confinement.

The exhibition and Mohammadi's Nobel win also paying tribute to the people of Iran, and their 2022 Woman Life Freedom Uprising.

KIANA RAHMANI (through translator): We are not just here for our family, but for freedom and democracy. We feel mostly proud, brave, and determined, a determination we got mostly from our mother.

KARADSHEH (on camera): I can't imagine what it's been like for you growing up without your mother being there.

ALI RAHMANI (through translator): From the time I was four and my father was arrested by the Revolutionary Guards, I realized that my family would never have an ordinary life.

My mother has been more than just any mother. She chose to fight the government for me and my sister so that my sister could have the same rights as me.

KIANA RAHMANI (through translator): Of course, at times in my life, I wanted her by my side. At puberty, your body changes. It's the kind of question you'd ask your mom. I had no one to ask. So I learned by myself. I would have loved if she could have taken me shopping, taught me how to wear makeup, and how to handle my body.

Frankly, I'm just glad she's alive because others have lost their loved ones and I can't even imagine what that feels like.

KARADSHEH (voice over): The family says Mohammadi hasn't been allowed to call them in nearly two years, and they're worried about her deteriorating health.

KIANA RAHMANI (through translator): I am not very optimistic about ever seeing her again. My mom has a 10-year sentence left and every time she does something, like send out the speech we will read out at the ceremony, that adds to her sentence.

Whatever happens, she will always be in my heart and I accept that because the struggle, the movement, Woman Life Freedom is worth.

[19:55:10]

KARADSHEH (on camera): The pain of separation from her children is one Mohammadi lives with every single day. I asked her about this in August, with the help of intermediaries in Iran, she responded in writing.

KARADSHEH (voice over): Mohammadi said: "If I look at the prison through the window of my heart, I was more of a stranger to my daughter and son than any stranger. But I'm sure that the world without freedom, equality, and peace is not worth living. I have chosen not to see my children or even hear their voices, and be the voice of the oppressed people, women and children of my land.

(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALES singing in foreign language.)

KARADSHEH (voice over): Jomana Karadsheh, CNN, Oslo.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA: Thank you very much for joining me this evening.

Reporting from Washington, I'm Jim Acosta. I'll see you back here next weekend. Don't go anywhere.

Coming up next, find out who will be the 2023 CNN Hero of the Year. Anderson Cooper and Laura Coates host a night of stars and celebration, CNN Heroes: An All-Star Tribute starts right after a quick break.

Goodnight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)