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Protesters Gather In Tel Aviv After IDF Mistakenly Kills Hostages; Interview With IDF Spokesperson Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus; Tracking Senate Intelligence That Went Missing Under Trump; Trump Steps Up Anti-Immigrant Rhetoric At NH Rally; Ukraine's President Zelenskyy Returns Without U.S. Aid Deal; U.S. Military Official: No Guarantee Of Success But Ukraine "Certain To Fail Without U.S." Aired 5-6p ET

Aired December 16, 2023 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:59:55]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: You are live at the CNN NEWSROOM.

I'm Jim Acosta in Washington. Good evening.

We start tonight with thousands of Israelis gathering in Tel Aviv after Israeli soldiers mistakenly killed three Israeli hostages in Gaza. The massive rally took place in Tel Aviv where Israelis are demanding that their government bring home alive the more than 100 hostages still being held by Hamas.

And we're learning new details about how those hostages were killed. The Israeli Defense Forces say the three men came out of a building shirtless, waving a white flag when they were shot by Israeli soldiers.

The chief of the Israel Defense Forces says he is taking responsibility, calling it a difficult and painful event.

Another hostage, 27-year-old Inbar Haiman died while being held captive by Hamas, according to the Israeli prime minister's office. Her family says she was a gifted artist, full of love and joy for life.

Let's go straight to CNN's Alex Marquardt who's live in Tel Aviv for us.

Alex, Prime Minister Netanyahu just spoke about all of this. Obviously just the devastating news about the tragic killing of these hostages, it must be reverberating all across Israel tonight. What more can you tell us?

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes Jim. It really is. It's really being very deeply felt. And Prime Minister Netanyahu expressed what so many Israelis are feeling, that these men were so close to freedom after more than two months in captivity. They were, as Netanyahu said, we are so close to embracing them but he went on to say, we cannot turn back time.

Now, perhaps notably, Prime Minister Netanyahu did not take any responsibility, while his defense chief Yoav Gallant did say that the military is responsible for this.

Prime minister Netanyahu emphasized that he believes it was military pressure, the military operations by the IDF in Gaza that got the first round of hostages out, and that he believes that this military pressure continuing will get Hamas to essentially come to the table and agree to release more hostages.

But in speaking with the families of hostages, people who want to see these hostages come home, it is clear that they want Netanyahu to be more proactive, to put a deal on the table to try to get these more than 100 hostages home.

I spoke with the cousin of one of the hostages, and I asked him what he thinks will change after this tragedy in which three hostages were killed by Israeli soldiers. Here's what he told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIL DICKMANN, COUSIN OF HOSTAGE: But I believe that such a tragedy could have been prevented by a deal between Israel and Hamas. They must change things now. They must pick a different course, and I think it's possible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: Now, there may be movement on the hostage negotiation front. Those talks have been stalled for quite some time. The mediators -- Qatar, U.S., Egypt -- have been trying to come up with a new proposal.

Tonight, Netanyahu talked about the instruction that he gives to his hostage negotiating team, and earlier I reported that the director of Mossad, David Barnea was set to meet with the Qatari prime minister to start talking about or to engage further on these hostage talks, so there may be some movement on that front, though we're far away from any kind of active negotiations, Jim.

ACOSTA: And so, Alex, just to make sure I understand what that relative was telling you just a few moments ago because it's very striking. Are you saying that some of the families of these hostages are saying because of the tragic events that took place where these three hostages were mistakenly killed that the Israeli Defense Forces should adjust their tactics, try something different so they don't have further loss of life of these hostages? Is that essentially what we're hearing?

MARQUARDT: You're getting a whole range. There are a lot of people who say we want the IDF to keep fighting against Hamas. We understand that they need to be eliminated.

But we want the government to do anything that is possible right now to get these hostages home. Put something new on the table. Some kind of proposal. Hand over the prisoners, even some of the worst prisoners that Israel may have to Hamas, in order to get the hostages home.

Gil and others I spoke with tonight saying that the most important thing is human life. And I think what this event really emphasized, Jim, is that many of these hostages may be in danger.

We have heard hostages come out of Gaza who have been released who say that they heard the fighting, they heard the missiles and the shells landing next to them. Some were wounded from that.

We heard the families of hostages saying that the hostages were being moved around, and that they were dressed like civilians, and accusations that the IDF didn't know what they looked like or who they were or where they were moving.

And so I think this incident yesterday with the three hostages killed by Israeli forces has really raised the fear of these families that their hostages may be next, their cousins or brothers or mothers, may also be hurt.

[17:04:57]

MARQUARDT: And I think this has really sparked a conversation about how careful the Israeli military is being. We know that the U.S. has put a lot of pressure on them to be a lot more surgical and precise.

If they can kill their own hostages, then obviously there are other implications about what they could be doing in Gaza as well, Jim.

ACOSTA: All right. Alex Marquardt, thank you very much for that report.

Here now to discuss this is a spokesperson for the Israeli Defense Forces, Lieutenant Colonel Jonathan Conricus. Colonel, thank you for coming back on the program. We appreciate it.

Will the tragic shooting of these three hostages result in the IDF taking a hard look at what it's doing on the battlefield?

LT. COL. JONATHAN CONRICUS, SPOKESPERSON, ISRAEL DEFENSE FORCES: Hi. Thank you for having me on the show.

Of course it will. It's an incident that shapes, I think, every heart and mind in the IDF from the top down. And the chief of staff issued a very clear statement saying that the IDF is responsible for everything that happened and that we take full responsibility for the actions of the soldiers on the ground.

And of course, express our deepest condolences to the bereaved families. It is an absolutely tragic incident, a mistake. A soldier that acted or soldiers that acted in violation of the rules of engagement. And they were not supposed to have fired as they saw the hostages approaching.

And we're trying to understand exactly why, and then what happened afterwards. And what we have done so far is to issue clear guidance to other -- all of the other soldiers inside the Gaza Strip, learn from what has happened and then specific directives how to minimize the risk of this happening again.

ACOSTA: Colonel, I mean, do you have a better sense now that some time has passed, how this happened, how this terrible mistake was made. It sounds as though they were waving the white flag. They were trying to say, we are Israelis, please don't shoot us. Please don't kill us, and yet that wasn't apparently enough.

What more can you tell us?

CONRICUS: Yes. I think we have to understand, and CNN has been reporting from the ground as well including from the Israeli side and also from the Palestinian side. So I think CNN viewers have seen how chaotic the environment is.

What our soldiers have been encountering on the battlefield are enemy combatants, Hamas fighters that have been dressed as civilians, trying to trick Israeli soldiers into IED ambushes and booby-trapped houses.

Yesterday or two days ago we exposed an attempt by Hamas using blue tooth loud speakers playing Hebrew voices, a recording of people speaking in Hebrew, in order to draw Israeli soldiers into an IED ambush area.

So that is something that we're seeing a recurring theme, Hamas using all kinds of tricks on the battlefield in order to confuse and of course eventually kill Israeli soldiers.

That is probably part of the mindset of the Israeli soldiers when they saw the situation and wrongfully understood it. And again, I want to emphasize, operated contrary to the rules of engagement.

ACOSTA: Right. And I understand the IDF has said that one of the three hostages ran back into the building and started shouting in Hebrew for help. And so what you're saying is that because there have been these instances where Hamas fighters have essentially tried to trick the Israeli forces into thinking that perhaps they were dealing with a civilian or maybe even dealing with a hostage, that now you have soldiers who just don't know what to do.

Have the rules of engagement been clarified? What can you tell us?

CONRICUS: Yes. They have been and additional guidance has been given. And again, you know, we have to keep in mind the circumstances where we're fighting. We're fighting against an enemy that is absolutely ruthless, and nothing is beneath Hamas when it comes to cynicism and using children, elderly women, and humanitarian facilities for in order to advance their military objectives.

And that is what the Israeli soldiers face, and that is why they are extremely, perhaps, on edge. And, you know, add to that, the general fatigue and fog of war of fighting. Some of them have been fighting now on the ground for a month and a half. That also takes a toll. And we know that humans make mistakes, and it is a very dynamic environment.

[17:09:44] CONRICUS: What we are focusing on now, parallel to the fact that we're owning up and taking responsibility, expressing our deepest condolences to the family. We're telling our soldiers, do not lose sight of the aim. We are going to dismantle Hamas. We are going to bring back the hostages, and we are going to return safety to Israelis.

71 days have passed since Hamas attacked Israel and we are not going to stop until we dismantle Hamas and bring our people home.

ACOSTA: Why did the troops shoot again though?

CONRICUS: That is being investigated. That is a very important part that is being investigated. Today we released and we briefed also the international media under full transparency the latest details of what we know. Of course in an ongoing investigation that may have other ramifications, legal ramifications, there are details that we cannot discuss.

What we have said is what has been cleared so far. And, you know, to be clear is that the first fire was obviously totally in violation of the rules of engagement. As regards to the second incident, we are still investigating it, trying to understand what the soldiers on the ground understood. And what their picture of the situation was.

Once that will be clear and understood, then maybe it will be shared and maybe it won't in the immediate future because there's an ongoing investigation, with obvious consequences in the future.

ACOSTA: You said that some additional guidance has been given, but that your soldiers have also been told that the mission remains the same, to root out the leadership of Hamas, to take out as many Hamas fighters as you can, to eliminate Hamas.

Has additional guidance gone out, though, going back to what our Alex Marquardt was talking about a few moments ago, which is there is now, I suppose, the prospect, that on occasion, from time to time, because this has been going on for more than a couple of months now, that you are going to have situations potentially where hostages escape, hostages get loose, and a soldier has to be able to make a better determination than obviously what we saw in this incident, this tragedy.

CONRICUS: Definitely they will have to, and I trust that they will because this has been looked into and clear guidelines have been given. And I think that every soldier on the battlefield would want nothing more than to save Israeli hostages and bring them back safely. Doing as much as risking their own lives in order to save Israeli hostages being held.

So I think that the guidance has been given. I think that, you know, the battlefield is a chaotic and a very loaded one. There will be additional challenges on the ground. There may be additional mistakes because we are a military fighting in populated and urban areas, and things happen, not only to Israelis, but to all other militaries fighting in these conditions. We will try to minimize those instances by clear guidance, clear rules

of engagement, by learning from mistakes and events, learning from enemy tactics, techniques and procedures what they're doing, how they're trying to trick our forces and what kind of exploitation of civilians, and sensitive and protected installations Hamas is doing.

And of course, at the end of the day, keeping a steady and focused aim, which is to defeat Hamas and make sure that we bring our people back and return safety and security to Israeli civilians.

ACOSTA: All right. IDF spokesperson Lieutenant Colonel Jonathan Conricus, thank you very much for your time this evening. We appreciate it.

CONRICUS: Thanks for having me, Jim.

ACOSTA: all right. In the meantime, a binder with top secret, highly- classified intelligence is still missing. It disappeared right at the end of Donald Trump's presidency, and involves the plot of Russia interfering in the 2016 presidential election. More on that CNN exclusive report is next.

Coming up later, how much longer can Ukraine hold out with no new help from the U.S. or the European Union. We'll talk about that as well.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

[17:14:06]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ACOSTA: Welcome back.

And questions are swirling over where a binder holding some of the country's most closely-guarded national secrets could be. The highly classified information about Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election went missing in the final hours of the Trump presidency.

These are documents considered so sensitive that the House Intelligence Committee secured them in a safe inside another safe, a CIA vault. And more than two years later, that binder is apparently still missing.

And joining me now is CNN contributor, John Dean who served as White House counsel in the Nixon administration.

I mean John, I don't know where to begin with this. This is just one of the cookiest stories. I mean it's amazing to me that this binder is just completely missing. I mean, have you ever heard of such a thing?

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Hard to lose a 10-inch binder, never, never. Hard to lose a 10-inch binder, it really is. It had to have been removed.

And you know, what's surprising is they made multiple copies of them, of the binder, they tried to redact some of the material and get Trump to declassify it. He was going to use it to make his argument that the whole thing was a hoax.

The Department of Justice at the last minute refused to do that. The White House counsel tried to pull back copies, and apparently successfully did copies. It's the original that apparently is missing, which doesn't have any redactions in it.

[17:19:45]

ACOSTA: And do you suspect some kind of cover up going on here behind this information just disappearing? I mean, it seems to me that it's also just odd that we're hearing about all of this now almost before the 2024 election when apparently all of this went missing, you know, shortly before Trump left office. I mean, that's a lot of time to pass.

What's going on? Shouldn't there be an investigation or something?

DEAN: I think there's a problem with amnesia in the West Wing that is there from the Nixon years even.

The only person whose memory is good is Cassidy Hutchinson's. She remembers Mark Meadows taking a copy of it home. His lawyer says, no, no, we didn't do that.

So, you know, I don't know if there's a cover up. It is certainly mysterious. I hope the -- when I heard this story, I hope the FBI is not letting up on this. In fact, I hope a grand jury somewhere is looking at this because these are very, very delicate secrets.

ACOSTA: And what does this mean for Mark Meadows? I mean, as you just said, he has said through an attorney, don't look at me. But Cassidy Hutchinson, as Congressman Swalwell was saying in the previous hour on this program, Cassidy Hutchinson's recollection of various events surrounding January 6th has been pretty spot on.

DEAN: It sure has been. You know, there's an easy way to resolve this that my lawyer used to offer any of my testimony that was conflicted by anybody else. He said my client will get on the box. What he meant by that is I'll take a lie detector test.

Indeed, I did, I took one when the former director of the FBI questioned my testimony, Pat Gray, I succeeded. He refused to take one. I suspect the same thing would happen today.

I think Cassidy Hutchinson would pass one. I'm not sure others would.

ACOSTA: Yes. And I did want -- and speaking of others, I did want to talk to you about this jury ordering Rudy Giuliani to pay nearly $150 million to these two Georgia election workers who have just been through the ringer after he defamed them in the wake of 2020 election.

And yet outside the courtroom he was still doubling down on all of these lies. Let's listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you still believe what you said about these two women in the wake of the 2020 election is truthful?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you still believe these claims?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you still believe these claims?

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER TRUMP ATTY: I have no doubt -- I have no doubt that my comments were made and they were supportable and are supportable today. I just did not have an opportunity to present the evidence that we offered.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: You know, John, it looks like, I mean you saw the footage there of the man with the strange haircut behind Rudy Giuliani, but I suspect Giuliani is going to be taking a financial haircut of that magnitude if he keeps doubling down like this.

If he's looking for any kind of leniency to say ok, the award was too massive in this case. How does that help his cause at all if he goes out and continues to spew this stuff in public?

DEAN: It doesn't. It shows how little real regard he has in his heart for these women that he really hurt. He just could care less.

I think, Jim, there is a likelihood that a court of appeals could shave this verdict -- it's a big one. And traditionally these kinds of judgments do get trimmed back.

We didn't have that in the Fox case. It was a settlement. We really had the Alex Jones case was somewhat cleaned up before it got to a final judgment. But he hasn't tried to appeal the amount. He realizes it could get worse.

So you know, these people who insist on doing this are really playing a dangerous game, but some of them get away. O.J. Simpson has a $50 million judgment against him. Reportedly he's paid something like $133,000 on it over all these years to the Goldman family that collected it.

Alex Jones has a $1.4 billion judgment against him. He's offering to pay $55 million on that judgment. $5.5 million every year, and then that's just only partial settlements. But I don't even know if those who have been offered, they're now considering whether they'll take it.

So that's what Rudy set in mind is to offer something greatly less than he has been found guilty and the judgment against him were.

ACOSTA: Yes, $150 million is a heck of a haircut. No question about it.

All right. John Dean, as always, thanks very much for your time. We appreciate it. DEAN: Thanks, Jim.

ACOSTA: Thanks.

In the meantime, Donald Trump is taking his anti-immigrant rhetoric to a new level. What he told his supporters in New Hampshire today. That's next.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

[17:24:46]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ACOSTA: Former president Donald Trump took his anti-immigration rhetoric to a shocking new level today at a rally in New Hampshire. He said that immigrants are quote, "poisoning the blood of our country" using language that is often employed by white supremacists.

CNN's Steve Contorno joins us with more.

Steve, sounds like some of the stuff that we heard from Trump before but it was really kind of on steroids today, the way he was doubling down, tripling down, and adding some really insensitive layers to his usual rhetoric.

What more can you tell us.

STEVE CONTORNO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. That's right, Jim.

In some ways it felt like -- you would be forgiven if you thought you had walked into a Trump rally in 2015 and not 2023 because so many of the themes were reminiscent of the kind of language he was using eight years ago.

CONTORNO: And when it came to discussing undocumented Americans in general -- undocumented migrants, it was particularly dark and often using this language that has been adopted by white nationalist groups and roundly criticized by civil rights leaders.

[17:30:00]

And this is something we have heard more and more from him lately as he gets closer and closer to this campaign, people starting to actually vote.

Take a listen to what he had to say today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They're poisoning the blood of our country. That's what they've done. They've poisoned mental institutions, and prisons all over the world.

Not just in South America, not just the three or four countries that we think about, but all over the world. They're coming into our country from Africa, from Asia, all over the world. They're pouring into our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CONTORNO: Now, along with this rhetoric, also some policy proposals, including a travel ban, "quote, "terrified counties, ideological screening for all immigrants," and "quote, "the largest deportation operation in American history."

A lot of these things are things he said he would do when he was elected president in 2016, and he ran into the American legal system or political trouble, including with some Republicans, or just sort of dropped off entirely on.

And that is one of the criticisms that we have heard, especially from Governor Ron DeSantis. He has no problem with the rhetoric or the policies of President Trump.

He has said that Trump didn't do enough when he was president. He was just here a day ago in New Hampshire as well. And he was telling crowds that he would actually be more effective at accomplishing the Trump agenda than Trump himself -- Jim?

ACOSTA: Yes, I was going to ask you, Steve, some of these other candidates called out Trump for using this kind of racist, nativist rhetoric?

CONTORNO: You know, actually, DeSantis was asked about this today in Iowa. He didn't call it out.

In fact, again, he's been more suggesting that he could do the job better than Trump could himself.

He has also talked about many of the same policies Trump has. He's talked about building a border wall. He has talked about deportation. He has used some incendiary rhetoric himself.

Because he had said he would, quote, "shoot immigrants stone cold dead" if they tried to cross the border with drugs or by damaging a fence.

So far, we haven't heard anyone call out Trump. And, in fact, some people like DeSantis and maybe Vivek Ramaswamy have actually kind of adopted the same language themselves.

ACOSTA: All right, Steve Contorno, thank you very much for that report. We appreciate it.

In the meantime, Ukraine is asking the West for help, and for now it's not getting any. What that might mean for the war with Russia. That's next.

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[17:36:55]

ACOSTA: Ukraine is facing a daunting winter ahead as the stalemate continues with Russian forces. The lack of continued U.S. funding for the war is now having a direct impact on the battlefield.

And CNN's Nick Paton Walsh reports from Kiev.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Jim, no doubt it's been an appalling week for Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy and, frankly, Ukraine's military effort as a whole.

Regardless of the setbacks, they do appear to be seeing on much of the front line, we have seen ourselves in the southern counter offensive in difficult conditions there.

There are suggestions the bid to cross the river from Kherson towards Russian positions is also experiencing a tough time.

They have had an abysmal piece of bad news about the U.S. still stalling, unclear precisely when it will come through. The E.U., their $55 billion vetoed by Hungary.

The E.U. sunny in the outlook suggesting to get it through in January. It caps an appalling week and it essentially highlights the lack of drive in the West to continue this vital moment of existential security for Europe.

And really it should be pointed toward that fringe group of Republicans that appear to believe that Ukraine should present a finite set of goals for a specific price tag.

And then there are some perhaps, who suggest, well, if you're losing the war here, why should the U.S. fund to lose it. If you're winning the war, why do you need further funding? And if you're in a stalemate, maybe that's good enough for peace talks.

It neglects the fact that Russia is in this for the win. Russia has billions at its disposal, and a high tolerance of casualties, and a lack of interest in history.

The recent history of the U.S. fighting lengthy wars of choice for trillion-dollar price tags, they know war is expensive and a messy business, and Europe, too.

When precisely, the people are so keen to say no to Ukraine, when do they say no to Russia? To Putin's Russia and its ambition, clear ambition for more territory.

An enormous mess, frankly. Ukraine is in now, and its Western allies are at this point, to blame -- Jim?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA: All right, Nick Paton Walsh, thank you very much.

You just heard Nick describe the dire situation in Ukraine. One senior U.S. military official told CNN Ukraine is, quote, "certain to fail," end quote, without American support.

Joining me now to talk about this is retired U.S. Air Force colonel and CNN military analyst, Cedric Leighton, and former CNN Moscow bureau chief, Jill Dougherty.

Jill, I understand you got back from Berlin. You were talking to your sources there in Europe. What are European allies saying about the war, U.S. funding and where things go from here?

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Jim, they're extremely concerned at this point because if the United States -- and we still don't know what that decision will be by the Congress.

If the United States stops funding, there's no question that there could be an impact on European funding. You already saw, and you just reported what Hungary did.

[17:40:00]

So the -- I would say the West's support and the unity of the allies is the really crucial issue right now.

Because I can tell you that Vladimir Putin is taking advantage of every single crack in the unity that he can.

And you just look at his news conference the other day, the call-in, where he was, I would say, almost cocky in terms of the hubris that he had, saying the Ukraine's free loading is coming to an end.

Meaning assistance from the United States, mainly, and also from Europe. So it's difficult, and Vladimir Putin will take advantage of it.

ACOSTA: He absolutely will.

And, Colonel Leighton, I mean, what is, to the best of your ability to describe it, what is the situation on the ground with Ukraine?

We have been talking about so much about Hamas and Israel for the last several weeks. We don't get that day-to-day picture of what's happening on the ground in Ukraine.

Is it that dire where, if the funding doesn't come through, they may not make it until next year? I mean, we had Colonel Vindman on a week ago. He thought that the Ukrainians could still gut this out.

What's your sense of it?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, he certainly can get things out, Jim.

But here's what's going on right now. For example, around the town of Bakhmut, the Russians are advancing. Around the town of El Difka (ph), the Russians are advancing.

So what you're seeing is movements on the eastern front, the southeastern front, and the southern front that indicate the Russians are moving forward or at least trying to move forward in an environment where they're basically outgunning the Ukrainians five to one, seven to one. in some cases.

And of course, the Ukrainians don't have adequate air power. They don't have the kinds of things that they would need to stop this kind of advance by the Russians.

Especially given the munitions shortages that are sure to come about with the funding shortages. So this is a very serious thing.

And then you add on top of all of that, the cyberattacks that are designed to cripple the Ukrainian infrastructure, and those are ongoing right now.

ACOSTA: And, Jill, I mean, President Zelenskyy, he was in Washington this past week. He was with President Biden, of course. And here's what they said after their meeting. Let's talk about it on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Thanks to Ukraine's success, success in defense, other European nations are safe from the Russian aggression, unlike in the past.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Putin is banking on the United States failing to deliver for Ukraine. We must, we must, we must prove him wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Yes, Jill, I mean, Zelenskyy was trying to make the case that we're almost fighting the Russians for you, is essentially what he's saying. That's not resonating.

DOUGHERTY: No, it isn't. Although, in Vladimir Putin's mind, or at least if we can say that, his strategy, really, is to say that he's at war with the West.

He actually does say that he believes this is not just Ukraine. This is a war against the West.

And I think, Jim, what he's trying to do right now with all of these reports about the difficulties that the Ukrainians are having is to make the case, really, to the United States and to the allies that this is unwinnable.

This is going to go on forever. It's going to drain funding. It's going to be -- there's no end in sight.

And that, of course, is what some people in the United States, who oppose continuing the aid to Ukraine, believe.

So if he can make that case, and right now, he is throwing everything that he can at this. Remember, just the other day, we had that declassified intel report

that showed that 87 percent of the ground troops that Russia had at the beginning of the invasion have been either killed or injured in some way taken out of the field of battle. That is incredible.

But Putin will just take more and more people and throw them at this to show, to prove, if you can, that it is unwinnable. And he's banking on the West and the allies just kind of falling apart and caving in.

ACOSTA: Very quickly, Colonel Leighton, you see it that way as well?

LEIGHTON: It's certainly true, what Jill mentioned. And I think what is happening is that Putin is realizing his clock is running out as well.

With those kinds of losses, it's hard for him to sustain operations, although he does have a lifeline to China. And of course, he's banking on us throwing in the towel quicker than he will.

[17:44:58]

ACOSTA: All right. Very interesting.

Colonel Leighton, Jill Dougherty, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

In the meantime, "CNN Heroes" are working to make the world a better place. And this holiday season you can join their efforts, as Anderson Cooper explains.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Anderson Cooper. Each of this year's top-10 heroes proves that one person can make a difference.

And again, this year, we're making it easy for you to support their great work. Just go to CNNheroes.com and click donate to make a direct contribution to that hero's fundraiser on GoFundMe.

You'll receive an e-mail confirming your donation, which is tax deductible in the United States.

No matter the amount, you can make a big difference helping our heroes continue their life-changing work.

And from now to through January 5th, your donations will be matched by the Elevate Foundation (ph), dollar for dollar, up to a total of $50,000 for each of this year's honorees.

CNN is proud to offer you this simple way to support each cause and celebrate all of these everyday people changing the world.

You can donate from your laptop, tablet or phone. Just go to CNNheroes.com. Your donation in any amount will help them help others.

Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And while you're at CNN.com, check out the biggest moments from this year's "CNN HEROES, AN ALL-STAR TRIBUTE." And you can nominate someone to be a hero. Nominations for 2024 are open now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:51:00]

ACOSTA: Numbers from the CDC show that black women in the U.S. are two to three times more likely to die than white women today from pregnancy related complications.

Faced with the statistics, many black women are choosing to opt out of hospital births.

CNN anchor and new mother, Abby Phillip, explored this topic for CNN and "THE WHOLE STORY" with Anderson Cooper.

Here is a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They treated her almost like it was an assembly line. They did not check her or feed her. They did not respond to her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She started throwing up, pick it up, and her eyes rolled up to the back of her head. So I looked up and screamed, I told the nurse,, ma'am, ma'am, help me, she ain't breathing. I started doing CPR on her.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Nurses called for a code blue, and along with the doctor, finally took action.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They rolled her down the hallway but when they made it to the double doors, they handed her a knife, and she was cut wide open and took the baby out.

PHILLIP: Baby Aniah survived, her mother did not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And Abby Phillip joins us now.

Abby, I know it's personal for you. You have an opinion piece, at CNN.com titled, "How I Wound Up Giving Birth at Home."

You wrote, "Never in a billion years would I believe, in modern medicine, as someone who takes no unnecessary risk with my health, would end up giving birth at home."

Abby, I did not realize -- I know you have a beautiful daughter, but I did not realize that this was what happened, and that this was a big issue. It's scary to think about.

How did you come to this decision? PHILLIP: Jim, it's totally not something that I thought when I got

pregnant that I thought I would do.

I honestly never thought about home births. I did not think that was sitting at all that people did.

But the more I started taking into it and realizing that there were these horrible statistics for black women.

And that in this country, women predominantly give birth in a hospital setting, and yet it has not improved outcomes, especially compared to other developed countries.

I started asking myself, where and how can I be best supported? It turned up for me the answer was at home.

Look, I don't think that this is necessarily something for every woman. Every woman as a different choice to make. They have different needs during pregnancy. I was lucky enough to have low-risk pregnancy.

But what I thought was so interesting, as I was exploring this when I was pregnant, was that I was shocked, honestly, by how many of my friends and peers, women just like me, who probably could go to any hospital and have access to any doctor, they were making the same choices, too.

I think it has something to do with the question of, are women and black women in particular, being listened to in our medical system?

If they are not, is that one at the reasons that some of these very preventable complications that are taking their lives are happening?

This documentary explores all of those issues. Hospital births and in hospital settings as well

ACOSTA: Right, because there is also the question of, they've been through childbirth -- obviously, you have. What happens if there is a medical emergency? If you do this home?

PHILLIP: It's a very important question and one that every woman, as one date work with a midwife, you go through and have plans, and have contingency plans, backup plans. And the key I think is to gauge your risk individually with their care providers.

[17:54:59]

That's what I did. We knew exactly what the plan would be, where I would go, if we felt that there was an inkling of something that went wrong. There is certainly that.

But I also think, what I realized in the process was that things can go wrong in any setting. The question is, are your care providers listening, windows things happen, so that they can intervene in a timely fashion, as well?

ACOSTA: That is a huge, huge part of this, no question about it. It sounds like essential viewing.

Abby Phillip, thank you very much.

PHILLIP: Thanks, Jim.

ACOSTA: Don't miss the new episode.

Great to see you. Thank you so much.

The new episode of "THE WHOLE STORY" with Anderson Cooper is tomorrow night at 9:00 on CNN. And Abby will tell us her very personal story, "SAVING BLACK MOMS." It's very important and critical viewing. It will be tomorrow at 9:00.

We'll be right back.

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