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Trump Doubles Down on Incendiary Anti-Immigrant Rhetoric; Interview with Representative Jared Moskowitz (D-FL) about Trump's Campaign Rhetoric; IDF Claims to Have Found Biggest Hamas Tunnel in Gaza; Rudy Giuliani May Face More Legal Trouble After Verdict Ordering Him to Pay $150 Million in Damages; Chicago Man Freed After Murder Conviction Vacated; Black Women Opting for Homebirth. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired December 17, 2023 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[20:00:53]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN ANCHOR: You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington. Good evening.

Tonight Trump repeated his incendiary and hateful anti-immigrant rhetoric at a Nevada rally one day after he accused immigrants of poisoning the blood of this country. The former president is now claiming that migrants are coming from prisons and much more. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They come from prisons. They come from mental institutions and insane asylums. Many are terrorists.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Trump also took aim at President Biden falsely claiming that the influx of migrants across the southern border is not just the president's fault but a, quote, "invasion" that Mr. Biden supposedly launched.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Our border had never had been stronger but then crooked Joe came in and he launched an invasion against our country. This is an invasion. This is like a military invasion. Drugs, criminals, gang members and terrorists are pouring into our country at record levels. We've never seen anything like it. They are taking over our cities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: It should go without saying there is absolutely zero evidence of the preposterous allegation that President Biden in anyway orchestrated or launched a so-called invasion of immigrants at the southern border. Beyond the heated rhetoric, though, Trump also provided a window into some of the policies he would enact during a second president term pledging last hour to implement, quote, "the largest deportation operation in American history." (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Given the unprecedented millions of Biden illegal aliens who are invading our country, it is only common sense that when I'm re- elected we will begin -- and we have no choice -- the largest deportation operation in American history.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Yesterday in response to Trump's accusation that immigrants are poisoning the blood of the country, the Biden campaign released the following statement which said in part that Donald Trump channeled his role models and parroted Adolph Hitler. We should note while the Biden campaign and the White House have responded to Trump's anti- immigrant comments, we still have not heard anything directly from the president himself.

CNN's Priscilla Alvarez is closely following this for us.

Priscilla, what's the latest?

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Biden campaign has been bracing for this. This rhetoric from the former president is not new. And they have said as you mentioned there in that statement that he is following his role models, and the White House adding to that saying in a statement, quote, "Echoing the grotesque rhetoric of fascist and violent white supremacists and threatening to oppress those who disagree with the government are dangerous attacks on the dignity and rights of all Americans, on our democracy, and on public safety. It's the opposite of everything we stand for as Americans."

Now, Jim, as I've talked to campaign officials, they note that the policies that have been rolled out by former president Donald Trump on immigration are, quote, "un-American," but they also note that we should be taking him seriously. Of course the former president tried to move forward with some of these policies in his first term. He ran into obstacles particularly on resources, like he said there with the largest deportation.

But the intent is the same. And it's going after immigrants. And that is where the president and the campaign have been prepared for that and they have blasted him on that. In fact, President Biden used his first statement through his re-election campaign to specifically criticize Trump's travel ban on predominantly Muslim countries calling that, quote, "cruel." And so the campaign and the White House know this is coming, they have known, and they are responding to it as they see fit, and calling it for what it is, saying that it is inhumane and un-American.

But as you noted, Jim, we haven't heard directly from the president yet. We have heard in his private events with donors, he has said that this rhetoric is very similar to Nazi terminology, but publicly and in response to this we have not heard from him. ACOSTA: And perhaps we'll hear some of that from the president this

week. We might see him in Wisconsin later on this week at a speech so we'll see about that.

In the meantime, though, one of the things that former president Trump has been saying among many things is that the current President Biden hasn't really been doing anything on immigration, but we're just getting some news tonight that the Biden administration is doing something on the border. What are they doing?

[20:05:02]

ALVAREZ: Authorities on the U.S.-Mexico border are having to suspend operations into railway crossings. These are two areas of the U.S. southern border that have been hit the hardest. They are seeing an influx of migrants. They include, for example, Del Rio as well as El Paso.

Now a Homeland Security official I spoke with today said that on Sunday, today, El Paso saw about 1300 migrants then in Eagle Pass, Del Rio sector, they saw nearly 3,000. These are big numbers. And the reason for them, when you talk to officials, is because there is unprecedented migration across the western hemisphere fueled in part by the coronavirus pandemic and how conditions deteriorated across the hemisphere.

And that's what's landing at the U.S. southern border. And this has been a big issue for the Biden administration for the last three years. I mean, remember, just from the beginning, the first few months there was a surge of unaccompanied minors that caught the administration flat-footed.

ACOSTA: Right.

ALVAREZ: So this has been their reality over the last three years. On Capitol Hill it's starting to hit a new sort of point with these border negotiations, and now that is hampering the ability of the president to get aid to Ukraine and Israel. So all of this is converging in this moment and it's all a very sensitive, delicate issue for the president going into 2024.

ACOSTA: Yes. A critical moment for President Biden. All right, Priscilla Alvarez, thank you very much for all the reporting tonight. We appreciate it.

Let's discuss that and more now with Democratic Congressman Jared Moskowitz of Florida. He serves on the House Foreign Affairs and Oversight Committees.

Congressman, thanks very much for being with us. We appreciate it. What's your reaction to Trump echoing Hitler in this campaign speech over the weekend saying immigrants are, quote, "poisoning the blood of the United States?" What's your response to that?

REP. JARED MOSKOWITZ (D-FL): Well, first, Jim, thanks for having me. I mean, President Trump said he wants to be a dictator on day one, as all the great dictators of course said, right? They only want to do it for just one day, and now he's literally quoting them using their language, and in fact he's actually quoting Vladimir Putin in order to take shots at a U.S. president.

You know, my fear is that unfortunately Trump is flooding the zone and has flooded the zone with so much nonsense that people tune it out and they say to themselves, oh, he's just kidding, he doesn't really mean it. But Trump is literally telegraphing, he'll really telling the American people exactly what he's going to do on his revenge tour. We should listen to him. This is not going to get better. It is going to get worse with former president Trump.

ACOSTA: And what we heard from Trump today in Reno, Nevada, was he's falsely accusing President Biden of orchestrating an immigrant invasion as he was putting it in this speech earlier today, and while that can be brushed off, one thing that he did talk about and his aides have talked about is Trump's vision of having mass detention camps for immigrants, for undocumented immigrants in this country. What's your response to that? What would House Democrats be prepared to do to try to stop something like that from taking place?

MOSKOWITZ: Well, first of all, as Trump's own Republican opponents have said, Trump had four years to build a wall, didn't build a wall. Trump had several years to, quote-unquote, "stop immigration," get immigration under control, and he did none of that. He did separate parents from their children in a horrible policy that didn't stop immigration.

And so this is really more Trump just -- more bluster and more using talking points from the internet, trying to get people foaming out of the mouth with anger, trying to blame obviously minority groups, trying to get obviously, you know, non-educated white Americans mad at the fact that America is becoming more of a melting pot.

What would Democrats do? Democrats would respond, obviously, with the same fervor as we did the first time. What I hope, Jim, is that we don't have to see how Democrats respond because quite frankly we should never let Donald Trump get anywhere near the White House, not even for a tour, quite frankly.

ACOSTA: And let me ask you, Congressman, about what's going on in the war between Israel and Hamas. An investigation is under way after the Israeli military accidentally shot and killed three Israelis that were taken hostage by Hamas. Are you concerned with some of the tactics the IDF is employing? Have they been too heavy handed? Do you think that potentially might have resulted in what took place over the last 48 hours with these hostages? What's your sense of it right now?

MOSKOWITZ: Well, obviously the news of the hostages is horrific. Those hostages, obviously, would never have been there had they not been taken hostage by Hamas on October 7th, and had Hamas actually not know where all the hostages are because some of the other groups came in after -- on October 7th attack. Obviously, you know, what happened in that instance was done by some soldiers on the ground. There has to be a full investigation of how that happened.

[20:10:04]

I actually met with the brothers of one of those hostages that was killed by the IDF in Washington, D.C., so it's absolutely heartbreaking. As far as the tactics that Israel is employing, I do think obviously, they need to do more on the ground rather than from the air. I do think they need to transition into a new phase. And I think they're doing that, quite frankly, which is unfortunately why this episode happened because they are doing more on the ground than from the air.

But obviously, you know, Israel is making progress, the world will want to see them make progress as fast as possible. They're going to want to see them get the folks that are still -- that planned this attack, that are still in these bunkers and these tunnels. But obviously, you know, Israel has the full support of the United States and we've got to pass the Israel aid package that so far right now is hung up in Congress.

ACOSTA: Well, I was just going to ask you a question about that. We're hearing from our team up on Capitol Hill that it appears there's not going to be a deal worked out tonight over in the Senate where they've been trying to work on some sort of compromised package deal that would include aid to Ukraine and Israel and fund security upgrades down at the border. Is that going to get passed? Is it just sort of holding out a little too much hope to think that Congress is going to get that passed and over to the president sometime around the holidays?

MOSKOWITZ: Well, look, while I would like to have seen this done quite frankly a month ago, we could have funded Israel had Speaker Johnson not played politics within weeks of the attack in his first week as speaker quite frankly he could have brought Congress together on the Capitol steps, but instead he decided to be divisive and put, you know, the IRS into an Israel bill, which had never happened before, violates the single subject rule which they pled to do in the 118th Congress. And as a result which, you know, the Israel aid didn't go anywhere, and the speaker knew that that was going to happen. He was told that by the Senate.

On Ukraine, obviously, it's imperative that we continue to help our friends and ally, Ukraine, against Vladimir Putin, who invaded a sovereign country. We cannot let Vladimir Putin win. If we do China is going to look at what happened there. It's going to have massive repercussions in Taiwan. And let's not forget the rest of Europe. If he can just go in and take a country or take half a country he won't stop there. Again, that's not what dictators do. They don't just stop. They continue, especially if they think they are successful.

And on the border, look, there are issues at the border. I think we need more border agents. I think we need more technology. I think we can refine some of our policies. So I hope we get a grand deal in the new year. To me, I always thought that they were going to punt this into the new year, with the holidays coming up. That just seemed to be where the 118th Congress is. I mean, look what happened in the House.

They voted for the impeachment inquiry and then they ran out of town for three weeks because they wanted to show the American people how important that was. They literally just ran out of town for three weeks. Again, the House also left without doing Israel-Ukraine and the border, they punted that to the Senate.

But, Jim, I'm hopeful that we can get a deal because it's too important to the world, quite frankly.

ACOSTA: And I did want to ask you about the border. Do you think -- because the president has been saying, I guess quietly that in recent weeks he has been open to some -- I think what has been described as a significant compromise on border security to try to beef up what is being implemented in terms of measures to control the influx of migrants coming into this country.

Do you think the president or White House might have missed a window of opportunity, perhaps should have worked on that sooner, and is potentially giving a political gift to the GOP? Obviously you heard what Trump is saying out on the campaign trail as ridiculous and out of control as it might be, he is seizing on an issue that Republicans feel like is in their favor right now.

MOSKOWITZ: Look, we're a year before the election. You know a little less than a year before the election. So there's plenty of time. So, you know, as far as we can get in there in January and solve this problem, quite frankly, you know, it would take the talking point away, but let's not pretend like Donald Trump will stick to the facts. He's telling his crowd that gasoline is $6, $7 and $8 when we know that's no longer the case.

But, look, I think the president is right. I think putting a big deal, a grand deal together with all of these issues -- obviously we've got to make sure that this country is still the beacon of the world, that people who are escaping persecution, like my grandparents escaped Europe during the Holocaust and came to this country, we've got to make sure that we're still that beacon of freedom for the rest of the world.

But there's no doubt that we can overhaul, you know, what's going on at the border and we can enforce the border through technology and through more border agents and things of that nature. But we need massive, you know, immigration reform here. You know, we have people in this country that we have to protect. The Republicans, you know, don't want to do that. And so, you know, there are people on both sides of this that make valid points, but I think because the issues in Israel and the issue of Ukraine we have to figure out where we can find some middle ground here, and get accomplished where there's bipartisan agreement.

[20:15:03]

Sure, there might be folks on the left and the right that want a voting against this grand deal for different reasons but if there's massive bipartisan agreement in both Houses, I think we've got to figure out how to make a deal.

ACOSTA: All right. Congressman Jared Moskowitz, thank you very much. We really appreciate it. Happy holidays.

MOSKOWITZ: Thanks, Jim.

ACOSTA: Thank you.

In the meantime, Israel says it has found the biggest Hamas tunnel yet. The latest on the fighting in Gaza is next. And later, Rudy Giuliani could soon face more legal actions after being ordered to pay two Georgia election workers nearly $150 million. Plus, in addition to that, after 42 years in prison, one man was exonerated and released this week. He will join us live to share what all of that has been like for him, and what it finally feels like to be free. We'll talk about that in just a few moments.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:20:07]

ACOSTA: Now to the latest in the Middle East. Just hours from now U.S. Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin will visit Israel for the second time since the Hamas attacks in October. The secretary is expected to push Israeli officials to define clear goals in the country's ongoing war. President Biden has warned Israel that it is losing support due to its relentless bombardment of Gaza and the mounting civilian death toll.

The Palestinian Ministry of Health says more than 18,000 people have died in Gaza since the war began. This comes as the Israeli Defense Forces claimed to have uncovered what it says is the biggest Hamas tunnel inside Gaza stretching nearly three miles in length and fully equipped with electricity, ventilation and communication systems.

And joining me now to discuss all of this is CNN military analyst, retired U.S. Army commanding general, Lieutenant General Mark Hertling.

General Hertling, great to see you as always. Always appreciate the insights. I guess, first of all, I mean, the images of this tunnel are just kind of mind-boggling. What is your take in all this? What was your reaction to that when you saw that?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, Jim, my reaction is this is what Israel has been talking about since the beginning of this conflict. They knew that these kinds of tunnels existed. I mean, we've been showing on CNN the single file tunnels that you almost have to squeeze through, but you can't conduct an operation of literally thousands of terrorists when you are squeezing them all through.

So you're talking about a tunnel in this case, it's 50 meters, about 200 feet or so underground that has the capability to hold weapons, have large meeting spaces, travel around and even bring vehicles in. It's just part of the network that's subterranean under the Gaza that Hamas has been building for the last several years, in fact, close to a decade. And how they have been shifting the money away from the Palestinian citizens to build these kinds of things, to construct their military apparatus. And it's just mind-boggling, it is, but it also shows the difficulty of fighting in this kind of subterranean environment.

ACOSTA: Yes, I mean, our Jeremy Diamond was saying just a short while ago that, I mean, this tunnel is almost big enough or maybe big enough for vehicles to move through. I mean, that is a different kind of tunnel. There's no question about it.

And General, today the IDF announced it's taking control parts of Khan Younis in southern Gaza. The Hamas-run health ministry also reported an Israeli airstrike in northern Gaza. What's your sense of things right now? I mean, President Biden has been concerned about what he's described as indiscriminate bombing in Gaza. But what's your sense of where things stand right now tonight?

HERTLING: I don't -- I'm not in concurrence, Jim, with the indiscriminate bombing. It may be somewhat excessive, and we can talk about that, but, you know, from the very beginning of this conflict starting eight weeks ago, you and I were talking about how they would start in northern Gaza, in Gaza City and then go to potentially Khan Younis, then to Deir al Balah, where -- and then even down south into Rafah.

The Israeli government has said this operation will take many more months where many of the United States' administration is saying they'd like to see it ended in terms of the kinetic operation by the end of December. I've said from the beginning I don't think that's going to happen given the size and strength of the Hamas terrorist groups that are in the subterranean tunnels. And we're seeing in each section of Gaza that there are more and more underground headquarters, and Hamas has been very diligent in terms of setting traps for the Israeli forces as they go through.

So anyone that says, hey, we ought to shift from using air power to ground and special operation forces, that's easy to say on the outside. But truthfully with some of the constructs that we've seen Hamas is using, these underground networks and some of the uses of civilian buildings have to be struck. I think it will continue on. Secretary Austin is going to discuss that with the Israeli government over the next couple of days.

ACOSTA: Right.

HERTLING: But I think we're going to see a continuation of these kinds of strikes until Israel determines that Hamas is defeated.

ACOSTA: And I did want to ask you about the three Israeli hostages who were mistakenly killed by the IDF. We've talked to a variety of people this weekend. I certainly want to get your take on all of this. When I spoke with the IDF spokesman Jonathan Conricus yesterday, I mean, he really didn't indicate that there is going to be a major shift in their tactics or rules of engagement. They're going to remind their soldiers that they may come across hostages from time to time who have escaped captivity and they need to be able to recognize that. But I mean, the three men came out of a building shirtless, waving a

white flag. They were shot anyway.

[20:25:03]

The IDF says those troops were not following the proper rules of engagement, but Colonel Conricus was saying, look, you know, we have Hamas fighters who are pretending to be civilians, who are doing things to draw in IDF forces, to entrap them and kill them. It is such a messy, chaotic battlefield. I'm wondering, General, what's your advice in all of this?

HERTLING: Well, I don't have any advice, Jim. But truthfully what I would say is Hamas and any terrorist organization is going to use deception and trickery, and you add to that the fact the conditions of the battlefield, as you just said, and I would bet that the hostages as they came out of the building probably did not look like the clean cut young men we see in their photos.

ACOSTA: Right.

HERTLING: That have been appearing on air, they have been in captivity for two months. The Israeli soldiers who are always anxious in any kind of firefight with adrenaline surging and especially, depending on what their level of training and experiences is, you know, and truthfully, Jim, I had a fratricide incident in a command when I was in Iraq, and it devastates the individuals who shoot their fellow citizens.

And in this case I'm sure it's not only devastated whoever engaged those three hostages, but I would believe that this rippled through the Israeli Defense Forces. And they are attempting to conduct their operations according to rules of engagement, but truthfully as you just said, the conditions on this battlefield are extremely complex and complicated. You don't know who the enemy is.

When people pop out of buildings, especially buildings as the Israelis have been showing contain a vast amount of ammunition and they contain ambush sites, it's very difficult to differentiate. But I believe that the Israeli Defense Forces will review their rules of engagement and I know their chief of staff has addressed this issue with all their soldiers in the fight right now, but it's tough. It's really heartbreaking.

ACOSTA: Yes. Very heartbreaking. All right, General Hertling, great to have you on as always. Thanks so much.

HERTLING: Yes. Merry Christmas to you, Jim.

ACOSTA: And Merry Christmas to you as well. Thanks a lot.

In the meantime, a major storm is moving up the East Coast. What people in its path need to know. We're talking about rain but eventually it's going to be changing over to some snow and some very cold temperatures. It's a lot during the holidays to bear with, but stay with us, we'll talk about it in just a few moments. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:31:45]

ACOSTA: That major storm on the East Coast is intensifying after lashing Florida all weekend long. The system is now hitting the Carolinas triggering tornado watches and flood concerns as it moves up the coast.

Meteorologist Elisa Raffa is in the CNN Weather Center.

Elisa, I'm seeing these radar graphics that you're showing us hour by hour, and the pink splotch in the middle seems to be getting bigger. That's not good.

ELISA RAFFA, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Yes. That tornado watch was extended, Jim, through 10:00 this evening, as we're still watching for those spin-up tornadoes for the outer banks of North Carolina, so it continues until 10:00 because you see this band here, kind of similar to a hurricane where you get these bands and some of the little storms can kind of rotate, that can cause some brief spin-up tornadoes as the thing starts to move onshore after dumping almost a foot of rain in parts of South Carolina.

You can see the heavy rain stretching already up the East Coast. Raining pretty heavily over parts of Delaware, Maryland, D.C. and then some of those showers headed into New York. The flood watches are in effect up to Maine for 60 million people going into Monday as this thing will continue to soak the northeast, so you have some of that heavy rain, a very messy commute from Philly to New York and then up into Boston tomorrow morning. Cold air comes in behind this and we do get a little bit of burst of snow, especially from the lake-effect going into Tuesday.

Look at these browns here. These are high wind warnings in effect from Long Island, Cape Cod up into Maine where winds could be up to 65 miles per hour. The National Weather Service warning about a couple of power outages possible there, so we'll have to keep an eye on that going into Monday as well. If you're farther inland, you're looking at gusts maybe 45 to 50 miles per hour but the closer you are to the water, the less friction there is and those winds will really pop.

So if you were going to do some early holiday traveling, you are looking at of course many delays from Philly, D.C., New York and Boston. It will be turbulent -- Jim.

ACOSTA: Yes. Elisa, I mean, and for folks who might not be paying as close attention as they should, when you say that the wind gusts are 40 to 50 miles per hour, people this week when they go outside on the East Coast, if they're in these areas, they're going to notice that, so be -- you know, be careful, hold on to your hats when you're heading off to work this week.

Elisa, thank you very much. We appreciate it. Rudy Giuliani could soon be back in court over his disparaging lies

about election workers. Stay with us. We'll talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:38:22]

ACOSTA: The lawyer for two Georgia election workers defamed by Rudy Giuliani in the wake of the 2020 election says a new case may be coming.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MERYL CONANT GOVERNSKI, ATTORNEY FOR RUBY FREEMAN AND SHAYE MOSS: We've already used his words against him and he absolutely should expect to hear from us if he continues to defame our clients. No options are off the table.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And she made those comments after hearing what Giuliani had to say about a Washington jury's decision on Friday putting him on the hook to pay nearly $150 million in damages to her clients.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you still believe that what you said about these women in the wake of the 2020 election was truthful?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you still believe these claims?

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: I have no doubt that my comments were made and they were supportable and are supportable today. I just did not have an opportunity to present the evidence that we offered.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Joining us now to discuss, CNN legal analyst Norm Eisen.

Norm, great to see you again. I mean, not that Rudy Giuliani has $150 million. Perhaps he could buy a member of his entourage a better haircut. But it sounds as though from what we're hearing from the attorney, Giuliani could be charged again for again defaming these women heading out of the courtroom.

NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: That's right, Jim. He made comments not just as he was leaving the courthouse but other comments during the week of the damages trial that reiterated the falsehood that Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss had engaged in some form of wrongdoing with respect to the 2020 election. That's nonsense. It's false.

[20:40:01]

It's been found by the court to be defamatory, and he's exposed again. Whether they proceed against him or not remains to be seen. It probably depends on whether he keeps it up, but if he does he should expect a high likelihood of another defamation suit.

ACOSTA: What do you say -- I mean, the election workers legal team, the attorney, also seem to be indicating that they may be targeting other people in Trump world, perhaps even the former president himself, and going after him on defamation, which is a process Trump has been through before. What do you make of those prospects?

EISEN: Well, the case that the two election workers brought in D.C. was an important test case in a number of regards. It shows how a D.C. jury will view Donald Trump's slanderous statements, his big lie that the election was stolen.

By the way, Jim, the case is not only important as a benchmark for possible future defamation actions, this is the same jury pool that will hear the federal election overthrow case in D.C. court should that case get to trial in 2024. So it's doubly ominous for Mr. Trump and anyone else who's circulated these falsehoods about a stolen election, and called out these innocent election workers whose lives, as we all heard, were turned upside down.

ACOSTA: And, I mean, people might be looking at this $148 million figure, and say, OK, Giuliani obviously doesn't have that kind of money. What can you do legally if you are Rudy Giuliani to try to get out of this? I mean, I suppose he can appeal the amount. What are his options?

EISEN: He'll probably attempt to shelter his assets. He may have already attempted to take steps. We don't know. And so there's things you can do out of court. He'll attack the judge's default judgment on liability. Giuliani did not comply with discovery, so the judge entered on the question of defamation, she said, yes, defamation occurred. The trial was on damages. He'll attack that on appeal.

And as you note, he'll point out that the damages are disproportionate, that they're unfounded, that even if he did wrong, this number is too high. But, Jim, to do all that, he has to be able to afford a lawyer.

ACOSTA: And that's an open question at this point. All right, Norm Eisen, great to talk to you as always. We'll do it again sometime soon. Thanks so much.

EISEN: Thanks, Jim.

ACOSTA: In the meantime, after 42 years in prison, one man was exonerated and released this week. James Soto joins us next, there he is, to tell his story and share his big plans for the future. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:47:41]

ACOSTA: After spending more than four decades behind bars for a crime he did not commit, a Chicago man is now free. This is the moment James Soto was finally able to greet his family after being exonerated of murder. On Thursday a judge vacated his conviction along with his cousins in a 1981 double homicide. James' lawyer says they were convicted almost solely on witness testimony, which was later retracted.

And joining me now is the man in that video, James Soto.

James, thanks very much for joining us. I don't know if the right word is congratulations, but I am very happy for you that you are now freed after this terrible ordeal that you've been through. What was going through your mind as you walked out of prison?

JAMES SOTO, FREED AFTER 42 YEARS WRONGFULLY IMPRISONED: I mean, it was so surreal, you wondered if you entered an alternative universe or was I in an alternative universe for 42 years.

ACOSTA: Yes, and what did you say to yourself all these years you were maintaining your innocence, and you were trying to get somebody to listen, obviously, and finally the system did? How did you survive all these years?

SOTO: Well, a lot of times you have to just internalize stuff and just tough it out. And I know that's difficult to understand. Like, for instance, right now in the holiday season I'm going to join my first Christmas with my family in 42 years. And you know, sometimes you don't feel the joy because you had to suppress it for so many years, but it's getting there. You know, I'm on this side of the wall, and I'm starting to feel this holiday season. And you know, it's a process.

ACOSTA: And James, do you feel like your life was stolen from you? How did you cope all of those years?

SOTO: Absolutely, I felt -- I feel like my life was stolen from me. I felt as if, you know, you were in some type of hibernation. You were like just put away, entombed, you feel so lost and hopeless. But like I said before in one of the interviews, it's either you have to get up and continue on and fight or you're going to lay down and accept what they're going to give you and have death by incarceration or (INAUDIBLE) life sentence.

ACOSTA: And you managed to stay busy all these years.

[20:50:01]

My understanding is you've been working on your case. You took the LSAT if I have that correct after earning your bachelor's degree in prison. So you tried to educate yourself. You tried to live a life that one person might lead outside prison, but you did it inside prison.

SOTO: Yes, I did. I have studied the law. I was self-taught for about 36 years. I'm proud to say that I helped another individual get fully exonerated named Roberto Almadovar (PH), and those types of successes, I said if I can do it for another person, I can do it for myself. And this, like me coming out right now is going to give somebody else a sense of hope. And it continues like that. You pay it forward. Because, again, the only alternative is that you're going to be stuck in there to never get out.

ACOSTA: And James, I mean, it's also a testament to the people who work in the field of rehabilitation. I covered these kinds of stories in the past, and they are really good, terrific people, brilliant people who work in the field of rehabilitation to try to help people such as yourself remake their lives. I suppose you have people like that in your life?

SOTO: I do. I do. I have been fortunate enough to garner the attention of attorneys like Jennifer (INAUDIBLE), and the Exoneration Project, with Lauren Myerscough-Mueller, Karl Leonard, I mean, I just can't -- Debra Loevy, they've been awesome. They have been able to correct this injustice. And I wouldn't be here if it was not for them.

ACOSTA: Yes, I've covered the Exoneration Project in the past, and they just do amazing work. They've been doing it for years. They did it for you.

James, great to talk to you. Love to have you back on, get a status update, see how things are going but all the best to you.

SOTO: I would love to be on because I do want to seek by juris doctorate degree and help others that are in the same situation as me.

ACOSTA: Perfect. Sounds good. Keep us updated and all the best. Best of luck to you, James.

SOTO: Thank you.

ACOSTA: All right. Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:56:38]

ACOSTA: Figures from the CDC show that black women in the U.S. are two to three times more likely than white women to die from pregnancy related complications.

Coming up next on "THE WHOLE STORY WITH ANDERSON COOPER," CNN's Abby Phillip talks with one mom about why she looked at other options. Here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR, CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP (voice- over): Elaine chose her home with her husband and with Kimberly at her side.

ELAINE WELTEROTH, "PROJECT RUNWAY" HOST, CHOSE HOME BIRTH: It was the most incredible feeling.

KIMBERLY DURDIN, MIDWIFE: It is beautiful. And also sometimes complications happen. And that's part of our training. Elaine had more bleeding than we like to see after a birth, and we

call that a postpartum hemorrhage, and the cool thing is elaine was not quite aware of what was happening. We were able to stop the bleeding and give her lots of IV fluids.

PHILLIP: I had exactly the same experience.

WELTEROTH: Really?

PHILLIP: I delivered my daughter and I had a postpartum hemorrhage, and I lost a lot of blood and they managed it and it was like it never happened.

WELTEROTH: You didn't walk away from your birth experience with birth trauma --

PHILLIP: Not at all.

WELTEROTH: -- because you had a hemorrhage. You felt cared for it.

PHILLIP: I was totally fine. I mean, I was fine. My baby was fine. I felt great.

WELTEROTH: Look at us, changing the face of home birth. We are those moms. Turns out we're those moms.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA: And Abby Phillip joins us now.

Abby, how popular has this become and I have to admit when I was listening to you tell that story, I was also very worried and scared at the same time. I'm just so happy that everything is OK. But this is becoming an option for more and more mothers.

PHILLIP: Yes. And I just -- you know, to emphasize, look, these complications do happen and can happen either at home or in the hospital, but they also can be managed with well-trained practitioners. In that clip who you were just listening to was Elaine Welteroth, she is the former editor-in-chief of "Teen Vogue." She's a host of "Project Runway." She chose a home birth despite having access to really potentially the best doctors in Los Angeles.

And part of it was because she felt like she could get more patient- centered care in that setting from midwives, including the woman who was sitting there explaining that. That was her midwife Kimberly Durdin. And look, Jim, this is becoming extremely popular, broadly in the United States going from 1 percent of births at home in the '80s to 2020 where it's now 12 percent of births, but really the story I think right now is what's happening with black women.

And black women, in 2019, there was a 36 percent increase in black women choosing home births, that went up another 21 percent in 2020. So there is definitely a movement here, not just to give birth at home without any sort of, you know, just doing -- nobody is doing it on their own, but they are doing it with the help of care providers who are specifically trained in providing patient-centered support to black women who are very concerned that they don't get that kind of support in a hospital setting.

So that's one of the things that we will explore in this documentary is why is this happening and what does it mean and what does it look like both at home and in a hospital.

ACOSTA: And it's not for everybody.

PHILLIP: Absolutely. I mean, look, not everybody can have a home birth, that is 100 percent true. And many women absolutely need to be in a hospital. They need that kind of care, and so it's really important for people to just know that they have options but explore them in a way where they are educated about what they are.