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Trump Doubles Down On January 6th Whitewashing Ahead Of Iowa Caucuses; Timeline Of Secretary Lloyd Austin's Hospitalization Revealed; One-On-One With Captain "Sully" Sullenberger; Headrest Ripped Off Seats Near Hole In Alaska Airlines Flight; Biden To Speak In South Carolina After Campaign Launch; Fears Of Wider War In Middle East Amid Deadly Attacks. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired January 07, 2024 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:01:24]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington. Good evening.

Tonight Iowa voters are just one week away from making their voices heard in what is shaping up as the most consequential election in American history. Looming over the Republican field, Donald Trump has made his attempt to re-write the history of January 6th a hallmark of his campaign for reelection, and he did it all again this weekend, casting the rioters and seditionists who attacked the Capitol and were later convicted in court as, quote, "hostages." This weekend Trump called on President Biden to release them from prison.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They ought to release the J- 6 hostages, they've suffered enough. They ought to release them.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: I call them hostages. Some people call them prisoners, I call them hostages. Release the J-6 hostages, Joe. Release them, Joe. You can do it real easy, Joe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Today that incendiary message was parroted by a member of the House GOP leadership, New York Republican Congresswoman Elise Stefanik.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ELISE STEFANIK (R-NY): I have concerns about the treatment of January 6th hostages. I have concerns. We have a role in Congress of oversight over our treatment of prisoners and I believe that we're seeing the weaponization of the federal government against not just President Trump but we're seeing it against conservatives, we're seeing it against Catholics.

(END VIDEO CLIP) ACOSTA: And former Capitol police officer Harry Dunn defended democracy on January 6th, he certainly does not see those who assaulted him and his colleagues that day as hostages. Here's what he told us this weekend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OFFICER HARRY DUNN, OFFICER WHO DEFENDED CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6: Right now, they are in jail because they believe the lies that he was spewing. Now obviously they are grown individuals who made decisions to go down there and commit crimes, but it kind of was a good nudge being emboldened by the arguably most powerful person on the planet. So they are hostages of his lies, I guess, if anything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Now Trump supporters may buy his attempt to whitewash the events of January 6th but the Justice Department is not. Tonight reports that a key member of Trump's inner circle is cooperating with federal investigators.

ABC News reporting that his former deputy of staff, Dan Scavino, is speaking to Special Counsel Jack Smith and has revealed new details about Trump's inaction on January 6th according to ABC. Scavino told Smith's investigators that Trump, quote, "was just not interested in doing more to stop the violence."

Let's discuss that and more with John Dean, CNN contributor and former White House counsel in the Nixon administration, CNN political commentator S.E. Cupp, and "Vanity Fair" special correspondent, Molly Jong-Fast.

John, let me start with you first on the legal front here. How significant is it that Dan Scavino is talking to Jack Smith? I cover the Trump campaign in 2016, covered it in 2020, covered the Trump administration, Dan Scavino is just about glued to Donald Trump at all times. How big could this be?

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: He's a big inside witness. And you know, reading the story on ABC that had that account today, I was struck by how delayed we are in learning what the government really knows and what they don't know, and they know so much more. As during Watergate, I was always stunned when something came out and they treated it as new, when it had been known to the government for eons. And that's what's happening here.

I suspect Jack Smith has a picture of Donald Trump that day in detail that we'll find stunning, and he'll present that at trial. Scavino will be a good witness. There'll be -- apparently Luna was in there also and talked to Trump on that day. So these are powerful witnesses. Trump is in a heap of trouble.

[19:05:05]

ACOSTA: Yes, what do you think, S.E.? S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, listen, this is already a

mounting case, a bad case for Donald Trump. We know so much about Jan. 6th, and yet as John said there's probably so much more that we have yet to learn, that the government knows and the DOJ maybe knows and Jack Smith knows but we don't. What we do know is a lot. We have pictures, we have witnesses, we have testimony, we have video.

It's a bad picture. Trump can sort of posture all he wants about what happened that day and lie to his supporters who willingly believe him, but we all know what happened. And this is just one more pretty bad domino to fall for Donald Trump from Dan Scavino, so close to the president.

ACOSTA: Yes, and Molly, we talk a lot about earth one and earth two, and I suppose that applies here as well, because on earth two I suppose Donald Trump can go out there on the campaign trail as he did this weekend and call January 6th prisoners hostages. He can talk about Antifa and the FBI. He was doing that this week. He was doing a lot of other things, we'll talk about that as well, but on earth one it sounds like Dan Scavino has been talking to the special counsel.

MOLLY JONG-FAST, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. I mean, look, every time a Republican continues on this earth two thing the way Elise Stefanik did today on "Meet the Press," it creates a bigger unreality for this Republican Party, and it's worse, right. It creates a schism between what is real, what happened, what actually happened, the reason those people are sitting in jail, and what Trump says is real.

And you have -- so when you have someone like Elise Stefanik does that, right, Elise Stefanik knows they are not hostages. She knows that if you break the law like these people did, many of whom did it on camera or, you know, live streamed it, that then go to jail. This is how these things work. It's not a political -- they're not political prisoners and they're not hostages.

ACOSTA: And John, I mean, a new poll shows that a quarter of Americans and nearly one-third of Republicans believe that the FBI probably or definitely organized January 6th. Here's Mike Pence denouncing that conspiracy theory. I mean, obviously that's false, but here's Mike Pence denouncing it. And let's talk about it on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE (R), FORMER VICE PRESIDENT: You know, I have seen the director of the FBI repeatedly assure the American people that the FBI were not the instigators of the riot that occurred on January 6th, and frankly I am very grateful for the efforts of the FBI to bring nearly 1,000 people to justice who ransacked our Capitol and did violence against police officers that day, but you're right, we have been assured again and again that it was not the case. I have heard the many repeated assurances from the FBI that they were not involved, and I take them at their word.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: You know, John, a lot of what Trump does out on the campaign trail, you know, it's almost like the courtroom has become the campaign trail and the campaign trail has become the courtroom for Donald Trump. And he goes out there, he talks about the FBI and so on, but I just wonder, you know, from your standpoint, does the cold hard reality of his actions, does he finally get confronted with them? Do you think this year? We're in a new year, is that going to happen? What's your sense?

DEAN: He doesn't seem to want to confront reality, so I doubt he will confront reality. It appears that his style of leadership, it appears his followers don't want to confront reality. But you know, Jim, the clearest evidence that the FBI is not behind this is there have been hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of trials of these individuals. You don't think their lawyers would not have sought this kind of information and discovery that a defendant is given? Of course they would.

This would have been all over every trial that occurred if the FBI was somehow involved in this. They would use this and they could present it in the courtroom. So it's just a fallacy and the fact that Americans are pretty dumb on a lot of things like this, and so they'll buy into a story and they will live with it as long as they can until some day they wake up and realize it's bad.

ACOSTA: Yes. What do you think, S.E.?

CUPP: We should not even give this seconds' worth of our breath because it is so absurd and looney, and as John says, it's demonstrative provably false. A lot of these people plead guilty, admitted what they did.

[19:10:03]

We should not even give it the credibility that we are in this segment, talking about whether it may or may not be true. It is not true, it is a conspiracy theory meant to cloak the reality of what happened.

(CROSSTALK)

ACOSTA: Well, it's not debatable for us. I mean, I --

CUPP: And again John is right, his followers will believe it. But we do not have to push it.

ACOSTA: Yes. I mean, I don't know. I have done everything but have a sandwich board over my chest, I mean, you know. You know, you're not getting anything from us in terms of giving this any legitimacy whatsoever. But talk about whacky comments, Molly, I mean, Trump also made these bizarre comments about the Civil War this weekend. Let's listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The Civil War was so fascinating, so horrible. It was so horrible, but so fascinating. It was, I don't know, just different. I just find it -- I'm so attracted to seeing it. See, there was something I think could have been negotiated to be honest with you. I think it could have negotiated that. I think it could have been negotiated, and they wouldn't have had that problem. But it was a hell of a time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: It was a hell of a time that Civil War. Molly, you know, Nikki Haley, she gets into all kinds of trouble when she has that gaffe on slavery and the cause of the Civil War and so on. Donald Trump can go out there and talk about negotiating the Civil War like he's buying a casino or something, and there's just -- there's no impact.

JONG-FAST: Yes, I mean, he benefits from having the mainstream media having very low expectations of him, and because he says so much crazy stuff, he's able to do sort of flood the zone. But it's worth thinking about on Friday, Joe Biden gave a speech at Gettysburg. It was -- Valley Forge, not Gettysburg, I'm sorry. Valley Forge, and it was this very meaningful and important speech about democracy, which stated many, many facts, right?

Like, you know, facts like how many police officers got injured, and things that were not anything that could be interpreted as anything but facts. And then the next day, Trump does this crazy rally where he says all sorts of stuff about the, you know, the Civil War, and a lot of mainstream media coverage just compares these two as if they are the same, and they are not, right?

Trump is a dangerous autocrat who will not be a dictator except on day one. And Biden is trying to preserve American democracy. These two things are not the same, and Trump really benefits from this mainstream conventional political framing.

ACOSTA: Yes, I mean, John, I mean, what are your thoughts on this? I mean, I know we typically go to you for your thoughts on what's happening in the legal realm. You heard what the president said on Friday describing Donald Trump as a danger to democracy, the country is bitterly divided. You know, obviously that's a message primarily for the president's base, for independents, it's not going to penetrate Trump's base.

But you dealt with Richard Nixon. Richard Nixon was to some extent a danger to democracy in his own right. Where does Trump stand against or stack against Nixon in that regard?

DEAN: Jim, I have written several books about authoritarianism as a result of my experience at the Nixon White House. Nixon was one of several authoritarian presidents we have. I would say that Andrew Jackson was the first, Andrew Johnson was the second, Woodrow Wilson was the third, Nixon was the fourth. And Trump has been the fifth. So we're really comparing authoritarian personalities.

And I've got to tell you that Trump is the poster boy. He is the worst we ever had, the most dangerous we've ever had, and Nixon actually had a conscience. That's something Donald Trump doesn't have, and makes it much easier for Trump to do whatever he wants to do, whereas Nixon actually had lines he wouldn't cross. So while there are comparisons and there are similarities, the differences and the bottom line is significant.

ACOSTA: All right, Molly, S.E. and John Dean, thank you so much, guys. Really appreciate it.

CUPP: Sure.

ACOSTA: Thank you.

All right, coming up next, breaking news, new details emerging tonight about Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin's recent hospitalization. A live report from the White House is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:18:55]

ACOSTA: Breaking news just into CNN. We're getting new details on the circumstances surrounding Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin being hospitalized.

Arlette Saenz joins us now from Delaware.

Arlette, what are you learning?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, we're getting some new details about the timeline and the circumstances under which Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin was hospitalized on New Year's Day. That includes experiencing severe pain and being transported to Walter Reed by ambulance.

Now the Pentagon revealed today that Austin had undergone an elective medical procedure on December 22nd while he was out on leave. He returned back home on December 23rd but it wasn't until January 1st, New Year's Day, that he started experiencing those severe pains. Then he was transported by ambulance to Walter Reed and admitted to the ICU. The Pentagon press secretary, Major General Pat Ryder, said that he was admitted there due to his medical condition and then remained in the ICU due to hospital space and also privacy concerns.

On January 2nd, the next day, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, CQ Brown, was notified. He is not in the chain of command.

[19:20:06]

And then Deputy Defense Secretary Kathleen Hicks who was on vacation in Puerto Rico, she started to assume some of the duties of the Defense secretary but she was unaware at that time that the reason why was because Austin was in the hospital. It was not until January 4th that she learned he was in the hospital. That is also when National Security adviser Jake Sullivan learned and President Biden was informed.

Then military's secretaries, members of Congress, of the relevant committees, they were notified on Friday. And the Pentagon publicly disclosed this matter on Friday afternoon. But there are still a host of questions surrounding why the Pentagon waited so long to disclose his hospitalization. President Biden did speak with Austin last night. The White House says that the president continues to have confidence in him, but there are still so many questions remaining about the circumstances and why they would wait so long to disclose this matter.

ACOSTA: Yes, Arlette, last hour I asked former secretary of Defense, Leon Pennetta, about all this, and this is what he told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEON PANETTA, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: I think it's fair to say that he made a mistake by not acknowledging to the public and certainly to White House officials that he was hospitalized. Secretary of Defense is a key part of the chain of command when it comes to national security. Not only dealing with all these crisis in the world, but also dealing with, you know, the nuclear trigger.

He's a very important part of that chain of command. I think the most disturbing thing I heard is that neither President Biden or members of the National Security Council were informed that he was hospitalized until Thursday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And Arlette, that's just some of the mounting criticism that we're hearing from Washington surrounding all of this.

Arlette, thank you so much. Really appreciate your reporting today.

In the meantime, when we see terrifying stories like that emergency landing in Portland, Oregon, it's hard not to think about another harrowing landing that captured the nation's attention 15 years ago. That's right. This was 15 years ago. We'll talk to the man behind the "Miracle on the Hudson," Captain Sully Sullenberger. There he is right there. About handling these kinds of life and death scenarios. He's coming up in just a few minutes. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:26:31]

ACOSTA: Tonight we are learning even more frightening details from that harrowing Alaska Airlines flight where a part of the plane blew off midair. The NTSB says the sudden drop of pressure ripped headrests and cushions off of some seats. Investigators are still searching for the missing piece that plugs a whole door closed as they gather more data about exactly what went wrong.

And joining me now is someone who is very familiar with a harrowing flight and how to land a plane safely, that is Captain Sully Sullenberger in 2009, and we all remember he successfully landed a commercial airliner on the Hudson River after both engines lost thrust. Miraculously all 155 passengers on board survived.

Captain Sullenberger, great to see you again. And we're going to talk about CNN's special tonight on the "Miracle on the Hudson" in just a moment, but of course you are the perfect person to talk about this Alaska Airlines flight. What did you think when you saw all of this?

CAPT. C.B. "SULLY" SULLENBERGER, SUCCESSFULLY LANDED PLANE ON HUDSON RIVER: Well, I'm sure it was shocking for everyone on the airplane. It would be very sudden and very loud, it would be cold as that air from 16,000 feet entered the cabin, but it sounds like the crew handled it very well. The passengers remained calm. They followed instructions, although I'm sure with that much air noise coming into the hole it would have been hard for the passengers to hear some of the instructions from the crew.

ACOSTA: And I hope I'm getting the vernacular right when I talk about a plugged door, but, you know, that plug on the side of the plane that came off in the shape of a door, you know, obviously it looks like a door, it wasn't being used as a door, have you ever heard of something like that happening before? And what is going on in the back of your mind in terms of thinking how did that happen?

SULLENBERGER: It's a rare occurrence, and that's the mystery that the investigators will solve. You know, the National Transportation Safety Board will bring all their resources to bear and they will look at how the airplane was designed, how it was manufactured, how it was delivered to the airline, and what maintenance might have been done on that door or not.

I think it was a fairly recent delivery so it's unlikely that that door had been changed since it was manufactured and delivered to the airline. So they'll figure out what the cause was, and they'll make sure that they know whether this was a very unique event to this one airplane, or if there was an issue with that kind of exit on other airplanes of similar types.

ACOSTA: And can you put yourself in the cockpit of that flight and tell us -- this Alaska Airlines flight, and speak to how the pilots handled this? I mean, it sounds as though the pilots, the crew, they just handled it perfectly. What is your sense of it?

SULLENBERGER: That's certainly the impression I get from what we know, what little we know. Apparently there was a cockpit alert, as there should have been, when that exit was opened. And the cockpit crew would have been aware of the pressure changing, and they would know that they would need to descend to an altitude where pressurization was not going to be an issue, where the air was easier to breathe.

So they'd have to communicate with the flight attendant crew to assess what damage had occurred. Of course absent that warning light in the cockpit and maybe some noise, they wouldn't really know what was going on in the cabin, so it's important that the flight attendants inform the captain and the first office officer what the situation was and what they knew was going wrong.

ACOSTA: And Captain, you know, this was such a close call. You know something about close calls. How close a call was this to being just an absolute tragedy?

[19:30:12] SULLENBERGER: Well, it's very fortunate that it happened at 16,000 feet where the differential between the pressure inside the cabin and outside in the atmosphere was not as great as it is at much higher altitudes. It's also fortunate there was not someone seated in that seat right by the exit, and it is important that people kept their seatbelts fastened near there, so they would not be sucked out of the airplane by the sudden rush of this change in air pressure.

We had a tragic situation a number of years ago where a woman, Jennifer Riordan was actually pulled partway out of an airplane and did not survive that when an engine part hit the cabin and blew a window out.

So this could have been a catastrophic situation, fortunately, because of the circumstances and the way the crew and the passengers behaved, it did not have a tragic end.

ACOSTA: Yes. And let's talk about the Miracle on the Hudson. I did that tease a few moments ago before the segment. I can't believe it's been 15 years since that took place. I don't know what you think, if you think it's been 15 years, but on "The Whole Story" with Anderson Cooper at the top of the hour, we're going to delve back into this. Your thoughts on that day?

I mean, it's still unbelievable to me to see the video that we're showing right now, the people standing on the wings. What stands out to you from that day? What goes through your mind when you think about it now 15 years later?

SULLENBERGER: Well, first of all, you're right, it really doesn't seem like it's been 15 years, but it has been a very busy and a very good 15 years for all of us on the airplane.

I think a lot of people feel like they had a second chance at life. A lot of people were given a renewed faith in humanity when all of these people, the first responders, the rescuers, the passengers, the crew themselves all made it their mission to save every single life, and I'm so grateful that every life was saved.

ACOSTA: And do you --

SULLENBERGER: I can't say enough about our air traffic controller, Patrick Harten.

ACOSTA: Yes.

SULLENBERGER: The New York Waterway who rescued us and everyone involved, all the first responders of New York and New Jersey.

ACOSTA: Yes, it was an amazing team effort and I was just curious, just very quickly, finally, do you still keep in touch with any of the folks who were there that day? Flight attendants? Passengers?

SULLENBERGER: Yes, I certainly do. In fact, I got a nice note, Lorrie and I did, from one of the passengers who now has 12 grandchildren, he sent us a photo. ACOSTA: Wow. That is fantastic, and it is great to be alive to be able

to experience all of that.

SULLENBERGER: Yes, sir.

ACOSTA: Well, Captain Sullenberger, we appreciate your time very much. Hats off to you as always. We'll always remember that day. Thanks very much for your time.

SULLENBERGER: Thank you, Jim.

ACOSTA: All right. Appreciate it, and make sure to tune in to CNN's "The Whole Story" with Anderson Cooper, the legacy of the "Miracle on the Hudson." It was a miracle. That is coming up at the top of the hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:37:25]

ACOSTA: President Biden will be speaking tomorrow at Mother Emanuel AME Church in Charleston, South Carolina, the church where a gunman opened fire in 2015 killing nine Black parishioners and the church holds added significance for the president because South Carolina was a critical turning point in the 2020 campaign setting Biden on a path to the nomination.

How important will it be this time around?

Joining us more to talk about that, Bakari Sellers. He's a former Democratic state representative from South Carolina, a CNN political commentator.

Bakari, I mean, I know that, I guess South Carolina is in the bag for Joe Biden this time around. Maybe it's a bit more important on the Republican side, but the fact -- can you speak to the fact that Joe Biden is going to South Carolina, going to Mother Emanuel to give this speech, to do this campaign, his second part of his campaign launch there. What do you think?

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, this is interesting. And it's going to -- it is going to serve a couple of purposes. And I just have to, I guess, set some level of expectation and kind of warn the Biden campaign as well.

Mother Emanuel, for many of us is not necessarily a campaign stop. It's very raw on the field. This is something that took nine people that many of us love and adore, away from us because of the color of their skin. And so I want the campaign and I believe they've been doing this it up to this point to refrain from labeling this a campaign stop, because this place is more than that, that's first.

And second, I mean, just kind of, you know, doubling down on that. I mean, you know, this can't be a traditional campaign speech. I want the president of the United States to hearken on to the values that he holds true, that level of empathy. You know, Jim, my mom -- my grandmother, excuse me, not my mom -- my

grandmother would have this saying that you can't fall off the floor. And you know, when you're eight or nine years old, that makes literally no sense.

But there are a lot of Americans, A, that feel like they're on the floor and I want the president to speak to those individuals who feel put down and persecuted no matter if they're Black, White, Hispanic, no matter if they're -- what they're going through or what their plight in life may be, or even if they may be some conservatives in the Midwest, those people who feel that pain. I want him to speak to that pain and not necessarily give a Donald Trump is full of BS speech.

ACOSTA: Yes, and to that point, I mean, Bakari, you and I both remember, and I was covering the second Obama term when he gave the speech, Barack Obama, we have a clip of that when he spoke at the church back in 2015.

[19:40:06]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: (Singing "Amazing Grace.")

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Yes, Bakari, maybe I should have teed that up a little better and said that Barack Obama sang "Amazing Grace" there. But it goes to your point that this is a -- just a hugely important and critical and profound place for the Black community in South Carolina.

SELLERS: Yes, and next time I'm going to get on you and your producer, you've got to warn me when this is where we're going. This -- I was in that, I was sitting next to one of our former colleagues, Sunny Hostin, and the president took a pregnant pause before and we both kind of popped up, and then he went into "Amazing Grace."

And I joked with the 44th president and a little bit with his comms director. He missed every single note of "Amazing Grace." He had to be carried by the AME Minister, when he gave that speech, and it was just so powerful.

I don't want Joe Biden to try to be Barack Obama because he can't, but what I do want him to do is speak to people's hearts and souls about what this country should be.

ACOSTA: You know, but to ask you a political question, Bakari, I mean, I'm sure you saw what James Clyburn said earlier today, obviously, a strong Joe Biden ally, he said that the Biden team is having a tough time penetrating what he described as the MAGA wall. Let's listen to that and talk on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC): I have no problem with the Biden

administration and what he has done. My problem is, we have not been able to breakthrough that MAGA wall in order to get to people exactly what this president has done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Does the President need to get people by the shirt collar? Is that part of this? Is that part of the issue?

SELLERS: Yes, I mean, it's not by the shirt collar, I mean, you've got to meet them where they are before you can even reach their shirt. I mean, the fact is, he can't do this in the campaign, and some of the people around him believe he can just do this from Washington, DC and that's just not the case.

I mean, politics isn't necessarily biblical in the sense that most times, people would quote scripture and say, may the work that I do speak for me, and while the president has done great work, you usually have to get out and talk to people about it, because sometimes they don't feel it in their pockets, on their plates, and their gas tanks, or in their homes. And so -- and then you have to take credit for those things.

And so yes, Jim Clyburn is so correct on that. In particular, one of the things that I talk about with my friends, Charlamagne, who has been a thorn in the side of the White House and others is this simple fact that this election is not just Donald Trump versus Joe Biden, it is Donald Trump versus Joe Biden versus the couch.

And I think the White House is having a hard time understanding that a lot of Black folk may just stay home if they don't feel as if they've been spoken to, messaged towards, cared about, and the policies don't positively affect them. Right or wrong, we are going to do our damnedest to get them out, but that's a realization that the White House has come to realize.

ACOSTA: Bakari, how did that happen?

SELLERS: I mean, I think it's been decades. It's not just a Biden problem. I guess, the best example I can give you is one of the greatest orators of my generation, and I'm just a little younger than you, Jim, but one of the greatest orators of my generation is Barack Obama, but the messaging was something totally different.

ACOSTA: Well, Obama is raising concerns, too.

SELLERS: But no one knew -- my example is, no one knew what was in Obamacare until people tried to take it away from us. We didn't do a good enough job when Barack Obama was president of the United States touting and talking about messaging what was in Obamacare, and no one really knew what was in it until people tried to take it away.

Democrats for a long period of time since Bill Clinton left the White House simply have not been a party that messages well and we allow others to define us. I'm waiting for us to take our gloves off, meet people where they are,

reclaim the middle class, talk about issues that really matter and I honestly think a lot of that goes through our mayors, not necessarily 1600 Pennsylvania.

ACOSTA: All right, Bakari Sellers, great stuff. Good to talk to you again. Thanks so much. Really appreciate it.

SELLERS: See you soon, Jim.

ACOSTA: All right, sounds good. See you soon.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:49:27]

ACOSTA: Secretary of State Antony Blinken tonight back in the Middle East in a week-long trip crisscrossing the region against the backdrop of heightened tensions with cross border fire at Israel's northern border, the ongoing war in Gaza, and after a week of deadly incidents across the region.

Let's get some perspective now from Norman Roule. He ran the Iran desk at the Office of the Director of National Intelligence from 2008-2017. He is now a senior adviser at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

Norman, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. We really appreciate it.

You're sense of Blinken's -- what he has on his plate -- heading into this trip?

[19:50:06]

NORMAN ROULE, SENIOR ADVISER, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: Good evening.

Secretary Blinken has three primary tasks. His first task has got to be to find a way to prevent a Lebanese war. He's got to find a way to bring in other partners such as the United Nations and France and prevent Lebanese Hezbollah from igniting a conflict with Israel at a time when Israel is being pressured from within to return its own citizens to the border.

The second task is going to be Gaza -- humanitarian aid, hostages, reducing the number of civilian fatalities by Israel. And last, he's got to look at the day after process, which is probably better characterized as the months after given the political complexities within Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

ACOSTA: And, Norman, how big does Iran loom over all of this? We've learned that Blinken's trip includes maybe some indirect back channel talks with Iran. Iran seems to loom over a lot of this. ROULE: Well, here's the situation. We're going to go into a period of

intense diplomatic process where we're trying to build a two-state solution and in essence, reduce the power of Iran's proxies.

Is it reasonable to expect that Iran or its proxies will sit back during those many weeks and months while that is underway? Well, it's not. So the question becomes what is the international community going to do to confront and press Iran back so that this process can play out to bring peace to the region, a very complicated issue. I don't think we actually have an international plan in that regard at present.

ACOSTA: You know, and this weekend, you know, we've spoken with two former Defense secretaries. Listen to what they had to say about how the administration is handling things right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEON PANETTA, FORMER US SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Well, I don't think there's any question that the United States has to have a firm approach with regards to the Iranian proxies, whether they're in Syria, whether they're in Iraq, whether it's the Houthis who are attacking in the Red Sea, whether it's Iran itself.

I think they have to know that the United States will respond if we feel that our forces are being threatened. And indeed, right now, those forces are being threatened.

MARK ESPER, FORMER US SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I think the reluctance to engage to push back is actually causing this type of expansion. I mean, there's been 108-some attacks against US forces in Iraq and Syria and we've responded only about six or seven times.

Now, I do give them credit for the strike that they conducted this week in Baghdad. I thought that was very aggressive, probably targeting the right person, so that was good. But you now have in the Red Sea, over a hundred and some drone ballistic missile attacks against commercial shipping US forces and we are yet to respond.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Norman, your sense of all that?

ROULE: Well, we're talking about the issue of red lines and there are two factors that are dealing with red lines. Red lines should only be undertaken to enforce existing international law and support the global order based on that law. The second is red lines should be and must be supported internationally with partners.

In each case, we have a situation in the Middle East, either -- be it the Houthis, or be it Iraq, or be it in Israel area where you have multiple countries with equities involved. So there's more than sufficient reason for us to confront.

The problem quickly becomes, what do you do? And how do you prevent a long-term conflict? And the answer there is increasingly surgical military action with a sense that we are willing to continue that action and won't be put off by a counter Iranian response, the test or fortitude, that will take planning, political coordination with our allies, and some communication, good communications from the White House to the American people.

ACOSTA: We got just a little bit of time left. But what was your reaction when you saw that ISIS attack inside Iran?

ROULE: It bore all the hallmarks of an ISIS attack. We have to keep in mind that there are a number of wars and conflicts taking place in the Middle East at once. Gaza hasn't replaced those conflicts, ISIS and the Khorasan has not gone away and is continuing its attacks on the Iranians. And of course, the Iranians would find a way to blame Israel or the United States for some of that.

ACOSTA: All right, very interesting, Norman Roule, thank you very much for your time. We appreciate it.

All right, we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:59:00]

ACOSTA: In just a few moments, a new episode of "The Whole Story" with Anderson Cooper airs right here on CNN. It explores the legacy of the Miracle on the Hudson, 15 years later. Here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: About 10 years before, I'd been on a really, really turbulent flight. And when I was on that flight, there was a pilot who was a passenger.

He leaned over me and he said, ma'am, do not worry about turbulence. He said, all we worry about in the cockpit are birds and fire.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The birds had been completely consumed by the engines and that burning smell came into the airplane.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For whatever stupid reason, I took off my seatbelt and I went over and I looked out the window. The engine is still there, but it's not running.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What was most frightening to me was the silence. There was no engine noise.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We could feel our blood pressure shoot up. My pulse spiked, our perceptual field narrow and tunneled vision because of the stress.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I knew without a shadow of a doubt that life was over.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I honestly thought that I was going to die.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I thought this was it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And a special thank you to Captain Sullenberger for joining me earlier this hour. An all-new episode of "The Whole Story" with Anderson Cooper is coming up next right here on CNN.

Thanks very much for joining me this evening. Reporting from Washington, I'm Jim Acosta. I will see you again next weekend. Goodnight.