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CNN International: House Passes Bipartisan Bill That Could Ban TikTok In U.S.; China Pushes Back As U.S. Lawmakers Go After TikTok; Judge Dismisses Some Counts Against Trump In Georgia; Putin Again Threatens To Use Nuclear Weapons If Necessary; Biden Hits Battleground States Wisconsin Today, Michigan Tomorrow. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired March 13, 2024 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[15:00:36]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: It is 7:00 p.m. in London, 10:00 p.m. in Moscow, 3:00 am in Beijing, 3:00 p.m. here in Washington. I'm Jim Sciutto. Thanks so much for joining me today on CNN NEWSROOM.
And let's get right to the news.
The clock has run out on TikTok on Capitol Hill. Today, lawmakers in the U.S. House of Representatives voted to force TikTok's Chinese parent company, ByteDance, to sell the mega popular social media app, or risk of being banned in U.S. app stores. Most Democrats and Republicans back the measure, though some members of Congress have raised concerns about free speech protections in this country, and the singling out of a single social media giant over others.
Take a listen to the debate, the supporters and the opponents.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI (D-IL): Our intention is for TikTok to continue to operate, but not under the control of the Chinese communist party.
REP. MIKE GALLAGHER (D-WI): This is a common sense measure to protect our national security.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): This is not an attempt to ban TikTok. It's attempt to make TikTok, tic tac toe, a winner, a winner.
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): Who will be the next to control the data of over 170 million Americans? Are we going to trust Mark Zuckerberg to control their data? I certainly don't.
REP. ROBERT GARCIA (D-CA): If you're going to address this issue, we've got to take the same approach to also some media platforms. We can't just single out one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: For it's part, TikTok had tried to leverage its many millions of users against the vote this week. And today, they denounced the outcome. A spokesperson said, quote, this process was secret and the bill was jammed through for one reason. It is a ban.
For more on what comes next, CNN chief congressional correspondent Manu Raju with us now.
Manu, a rare piece of bipartisan legislation in the House. Tell us how this came together. And do we expect it to become law?
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's an open question about whether it will become law, even though this was an overwhelming vote, rarely do you see such a bipartisan majority, an overwhelming majority come together, on an issue like this, in an election year, and really potentially turning up key swing voters, young voters, in particular, there's vote 352 to 65, overwhelming number of members of both parties supporting this. There were 50 Democrats, mostly progressives, some younger members, too, voting no, as well as. Fifteen Republicans voting against this as well.
This really came together because of the concerns over national security, top national security officials have been on the Hill briefing members, warning them about the Chinese communist party in the potential of exploiting the private data of so many Americans. And that really took over the concerns that were levied about how this could stifle free speech. But at the same time are the concerns about the political ramifications of all of this. There are some Democratic members who are worried that if Joe Biden were to sign this into law, that he could face backlash from young voters at a critical time in this election.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MAXWELL FROST (D-FL): I don't think it'll be helpful with young voters, but, you know, my argument here, yes, it has to do with young people, but taking a step back, I just think its bad policy.
SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): Just for politics is addition, multiplication and cutting out a large group of young voters is not the best known strategy for reelection
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: And, Jim, that is one reason why it is uncertain about whether this could become law because now it does go to the United States Senate. The Senate takes its own time with legislation. The Senate majority leader, Chuck Schumer, has not expressed any support for this bill, simply said that the Senate would review this matter yesterday. He indicated this would go through the committee process which can take a long time.
There are a lot of members who have their own ideas. Some of the supporters of this effort to ban TikTok actually don't believe this legislation is constitutional. Some of them raised concerns about naming a specific company, ByteDance, call -- force ByteDance to sell TikTok, if not the TikTok will be banned in the United States, they say that by naming TikTok that could run afoul of the U.S. Constitution. So there'll be changes made in the Senate and will Chuck Schumer gives us a priority in an election year with the possible blowback that they can endure from voters. That's why there are so many questions still that despite this overwhelming vote can actually become law. That is uncertain at this moment -- Jim.
SCIUTTO: And will it be deliberately delayed in the Senate, Manu Raju, on the Hill, thanks so much.
[15:05:01]
There is no question that TikTok with its 170 million American users has become a mainstay for news pop culture, marketing entrepreneurship in the U.S., especially for young people. A majority of kids age 13 to 17 use TikTok every day. A third of adults under 30 say they regularly get on the platform that according to survey data from the Pew Research Center.
So could those voters punish lawmakers of this bill becomes law?
Here to discuss, Ashley Allison, CNN, political commentator and former White House senior adviser, and Charlie Dean, he's former Republican congressman from Pennsylvania.
Good to have you both on.
First question for you, Charlie Dent, this is a rare piece of bipartisan legislation. Why the meeting of the minds on this in your view?
CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, Jim, for better or for worse, one of the few areas where Congress has a bipartisan consensus is on China. Its really -- and Congress has frankly develop rather hawkish position on China, and this legislation banning TikTok as it manifestation of that current reality. So I would just simply suggest that all things China right now are really being closely scrutinized, and there's a lot of hostility.
So I'm not surprised it was a strong bipartisan vote. You know, whether or not this is great policy or whether it becomes law, is another matter. You know, the Senate is going to probably take its time on this thing, but at the same time, Congress will come together on China policy right now.
SCIUTTO: So let me ask you that nationally about the politics of this. You just heard from Manu Raju's speaking not just to the only Gen Z member of Congress there, but also Dick Durbin, who's been around for awhile. He talks about the danger of losing young voters if the Biden administration worried about that, should Democrats be worried about them
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think a lot of people are using TikTok, including myself as a millennial. I get on it every single day and I think the question is, what are we trying to solve here? If we want to make sure that foreign countries do not interfere in our elections. And the communications that we're seeing, there's a way to do that without just specifically targeting one company. I think there's been lots of conversations in Congress about what's
happening on Facebook. I'm not saying Facebook has China interference, but we have seen people being targeted by Russia during the 2016 on their platform. So this is manifesting in many different ways. And I think there's a different way to solve this problem.
I do think that because -- you need to go where voters are and the reality is that young voters, voters of color, even millennials and folks who are using TikTok as a form of commerce to sell products. That's where they are. And so to ban it, it could have political ramifications both on the Democratic side and on the Republican side.
So I think there's another way to solve this problem. I have often said, we don't want China in our politics and in determining what people were reading. But we also so want to make sure that people can communicate and interact with one another
SCIUTTO: Charlie Dent, Donald Trump, the Republican nominee for president. He was a really and vocal opponent of TikTok until he wasn't. He posted recently on Truth Social, which is a competitive website, we should note: If you get rid of TikTok, Facebook and I'm not even going to repeat how he addressed Mark Zuckerberg, will double their business.
We do know this. Trump's got skin in the game. He's got his own social media company. He also recently met with Jeff Yass, a hedge fund manager and GOP donor who's invested billions of dollars into TikTok.
Is Trump self-dealing here? Does he -- does he sense the youth politics angle or both?
DENT: But what is completely unsurprising about Donald Trumps reaction to this whole matter is that he really sets public policy in many respects based on how it affects him personally. So he doesn't like Mark Zuckerberg, so that's how he announced this. You know, Zuckerberg will somehow benefit and he thinks Zuckerberg is a bum. And that's how he came to this decision.
We should also note to that some people who are very close to Donald Trump are doing work for TikTok and they may have gotten to him. So the way Donald Trumps sets policy, it's not very deliberative. I mean, he's not looking at necessarily for what the public interest is or what's in the best interest of national -- in the United States. But he's looking at it from the standpoint of how it affects him, how it affects True Social, how it affects his vendetta with Mark Zuckerberg.
That's on the one hand, its very disturbing and alarming but not surprising. And I think Congress though by the way, has made a fair point here about TikTok. I mean, the issue here is what date is being shared between TikTok or ByteDance and the Chinese communist party. That is really the issue here.
And I think TikTok is going to have to spend some time trying to figure out its relationship with ByteDance.
SCIUTTO: Change in ownership, any potential digital back doors, et cetera.
[15:10:07]
Ashley Allison, Charlie Dent, thanks so much to both of you.
So the argument behind today's vote is the TikTok's Chinese ownership means that under Chinese law, the Chinese communist party could access American user data and use TikTok's algorithm, there's that word again, to spread disinformation.
Yesterday, America's director of national intelligence testified to that potential threat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISHNAMOORTHI: Director Haines, you cannot rule out that the CCP could again, just like they did here, use TikTok as a platform to influence 2020 -- 2024 elections, right?
AVRIL HAINES, U.S. DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: We cannot rule out that the CCP could use it, correct.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Not surprisingly, China has pushed back vigorously against that allegation.
CNN's Marc Stewart, he's in Beijing and he asked the Chinese government about the fight back here in Washington -- Marc.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARC STEWART, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This discussion and debate surrounding TikTok comes at a time when the United States and China are trying to find a roadmap for the future when it comes to these business and economic issues. Yet, there is skepticism. It's a point I brought up in a question to a spokesperson from China's ministry of foreign affairs.
Let's take a listen.
As you well know, lawmakers in the United States are voting to possibly ban TikTok regardless of what they may decide. What is your response to feelings of distrust from American lawmakers and the American public toward Chinese companies?
WANG WENBIN, CHINESE FOREIGN MINISTRY SPOKESMAN: Even though the U.S. has not found evidence on how TikTok endangers its national security, it has never stopped going after TikTok. Such practice of resorting to acts of bullying when one could not succeed in fair competition, disrupts the normal operation of the market. It undermines the confidence of international investors and sabotages the global economic and trade order. This will eventually backfire on the U.S. itself.
STEWART: I also asked if China was advising TikTok on how to proceed. The response, very much what you just heard. No further insight was given.
Marc Stewart, CNN, Beijing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Thanks to Marc Stewart for his reporting there.
So a range of views on the threat that TikTok's Chinese ownership poses to Americans and to the U.S. national security. What do we know about the risks specifically to user data and privacy? What might the impact be if this becomes law?
Joining us now is Ivan Tsarynny. He is a cybersecurity expert, CEO of Feroot Security.
Thanks so much, Ivan, for joining me.
IVAN TSARYNNY, CYBERSECURITY EXPERT: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: So, first, speaking to lawmakers, this is a two-tier threat in their view that it can access personal user data and then use that data to target individuals, influence U.S. elections there. Can you explain how that works? And do you see from your perspective a similar threat?
TSARYNNY: Yeah, that's an important question. Thanks for asking.
We specialize in finding tracking technologists and like I testified at the Capitol Hill late in February. What do we have found is TikTok specifically, but many other companies under the ownership of China are collecting a lot of information on people that never used TikTok or any other social media apps.
And that information can definitely be used for various purposes, like you mentioned, whether it's from spying or interference or election interference and other reasons that they might see fit.
SCIUTTO: So they're collecting by other means. I guess the obvious question then is does targeting TikTok specifically change the dynamic at all?
TSARYNNY: That it is a really important question. TikTok specifically is definitely (ph) -- would be definitely step in the right direction because that is one of the biggest collector of data of Americans but it is a tip of the iceberg. There is the real problem is the big China attack that is embedded into our day-to-day activities that are watching us and collecting our information, whether when were looking into bank accounts or scheduling doctor appointments.
SCIUTTO: Yeah.
TSARNNY: So there's definitely much bigger threat to us than just TikTok.
SCIUTTO: So what's the solution for that? I mean, I have some personal experience with this as do sadly, millions of Americans because I've been the subject along with other users, for instance, of Anthem or Marriott Hotels. They're very -- Equifax, previous hacks that China has been involved in as it hovers up this personal data.
What's the solution to that? I mean, is it better cybersecurity? Is it personal security? Is it legislation?
[15:15:04]
TSARNNY: Well, it is a really loaded question. I don't think there's one silver bullet that will take care of everything. But definitely governance of the data, security laws and holding companies, organizations responsible for keeping the data safe and secure is really important. But they're real threat here that comes in from the China is that under Chinese law, any company has to disclose and share the data with the Chinese or and the communist party. And when I say every company mean company under Chinese jurisdiction, and that is a real big threat for us.
SCIUTTO: Yeah. I guess, you know, you've got the personal data aspect, right? Which, you know, you can -- anything could be hacked, right? Sadly, and we've seen a lot of evidence of that.
But then you have the sort of positive outreach here, the idea, and this is what the director of national intelligence was speaking about specifically, which is that they could use that as a conduit to American voters. Good to share, disinformation, attempt to influence our elections is that arguably the bigger piece? And is there anything you could do about that?
TSARYNNY: Well, that is definitely a big base of what you just mentioned. But there's also other concerns that happening already have confirmed that had happened, where TikTok was spying a certain journalists that were using information that they only TikTok had on those journalists, including geolocation. So, spying and espionage has been in a way already, confer release or confirmed by "Wall Street Journal" and other publications where that happened already, which is a really big alarm for all of us.
SCIUTTO: Goodness. Well, to your point, it's not one solution, right? This is an ongoing problem.
Ivan Tsarynny, thanks so much for helping explain that all to us
TSARYNNY: Thank you
SCIUTTO: Coming up, we're going to go to Fulton County, Georgia where the judge presiding over Donald Trump's racketeering case has thrown out some of the charges, not most of them, but some of the charges against the former president. Which ones? We'll explain, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: We're following new developments out of Fulton County, Georgia, today where the judge has tossed out several charges against former President Trump in the election subversion case. The decision drops the total charges in the case against Trump and several other defendants from 41 to 35. Trump was named in three of the charges dropped today. The news comes as we await the decision by the judge on whether he will remove District Attorney Fani Willis or the lead prosecutor from the case.
CNN's Nick Valencia is in Atlanta.
Nick, I wonder why were these particular charges dropped and what specific parts of the case did they involve
[15:20:00]
NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, it's a criticism of the district attorney's office, lack of details. According to Judge Scott McAfee, he's effectively saying that they didn't add enough details about what underlying crime these defendants were allegedly eliciting from public officials. They all have to do with this solicitation of violation of oath of office by a public official and are related to that infamous phone call from the former president. That phone call where he called Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger and asked him to find more votes.
Also related to the so-called fake elector scheme where Trump and his allies tried to, you know, subvert the Electoral College and essentially say that he was the rightful winner here in Georgia when he was not. The judge criticizing the district attorneys office, saying they -- saying they just basically didn't include enough details about what the violation of oath of office was.
And this is what he's saying in part of his order, Jim, saying, quote, the courts concern is less that the state has failed to alleged sufficient conduct of the defendant. In fact, it is the legend abundance. However, the lack of detail concerning and essential legal element is in the undersides opinion fatal.
The caveat here though, is that he's left the door open for an appeal, saying that if the district attorneys office able to fill out these details are fill in these details. They can re-indict. Also very importantly, the most important count in this 41 count indictment has not been dismissed. That still stays and that's the racketeering charge.
This all happens as were waiting for this monumental decision from McAfee as to whether he's going to dismiss Fani Willis. He recently gave an interview to WSB radio in Atlanta saying that he's on track for his two weeks self-imposed deadline and coincidentally, we ran into him just several hours ago on the steps to the Fulton County courthouse and he says he's on track for a decision by the end of this week -- Jim.
SCIUTTO: We'll be watching.
Nick Valencia, thanks so much.
Joining me now to discuss the legal aspects, Georgia State University constitutional law professor, Anthony Michael Kreis.
Good to have you. Thanks for taking the time this afternoon.
ANTHONY MICHAEL KREIS, CONSTITUTIONAL LAW PROFESSOR AT GEORGIA STATE UNIVERSITY: Thanks for having me.
SCIUTTO: So this drops the total number from 41 to 35. Six is a lot. Is this a significant blow to the case?
KREIS: I don't really think so. Ultimately, there is a lot of confusion about the underlying theory of these charges, namely that the argument went that Donald Trump and his allies encouraged state officials here in Georgia to violate their oath to uphold the federal constitution and the Georgia state constitution.
But those documents are very different. There could be various different ways in which the election interference case could invoke constitutional rights being violated or constitutional rule being violated. But the state really never articulated a clean, plain theory of what that constitutional violation was.
And so I think the evidence is there, just (INAUDIBLE) that there's plenty of evidence there to sustain these indictments. But the theory of the criminality, the theory of wrongdoing was just never with particularity spelled out.
SCIUTTO: Okay. So lets talk about one of the pieces of evidence in the case that relates to these specific charges, that, of course, the infamous phone call between Trump and Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger for folks' memories.
Let's play it.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more that we have because we won the state.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: I mean, there you have a sitting president who lost an election pressuring a state election official to find exactly the number of votes to overturn that state. Does that call still factor into the overall indictment and wasn't that call one, of the strongest parts of the case?
KREIS: So the main crux of Fani Willis's indictment here in Fulton County is that there was a broad national conspiracy, right, a racketeering enterprise that was formed to overturn the election in Georgia, and for the entire country as consequence. And that call is still important evidence. That is a overact, an act in furtherance of that conspiracy in furtherance of that racketeering enterprise, that Fani Willis could still show in court as being an important fact in for a jury to consider about what Donald Trump was really up to here, in the aftermath of the 2020 elections.
So while this particular charge about oath of office related to Brad Raffensperger needs some clarification if Fani Willis wants to bring it, it doesn't really -- it doesn't go away. It's still part of the calculus. It's still part of the evidence that she will bring forth in proving the racketeering enterprise's existence.
SCIUTTO: Okay. Big picture before we go, because the judge is going to decide and the next couple of days whether Fani Willis can still be the D.A. The case remains even if the D.A. changes, but the timeline may change.
Where's this case going? And does it go anywhere before the November election or is this been successfully punted in part by the efforts of the defense?
KREIS: But I think this is always going to be a problem of a bottlenecking in the sense that Donald Trump can't be in multiple places at once facing multiple trials and criminal issues in various jurisdictions. So I think Fulton County was probably always going to be at the back end of things and what the appeals does that still be true now.
I think were probably looking at very, very late 2024, perhaps early 2025. Nothing today changes that but we have to wait and see what happens with disqualification issue.
SCIUTTO: All right. Anthony Michael Kreis, thanks so much.
KREIS: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: And coming up, Russian President Vladimir Putin says his nuclear weapons are the best in the world and he isn't ruling out using that. Former director of national intelligence, James Clapper, he is going to join me here to talk about that threat, and more
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:28:16]
SCIUTTO: Welcome back.
Russian President Vladimir Putin issuing a stark warning today saying he is ready to use nuclear weapons if the Russian state is at stake. This as overnight, Ukraine carried out one of its largest drone attacks to date inside Russia, targeting at least three of Russia's largest oil refineries.
CNN senior international correspondent Fred Pleitgen, he's been following this.
Fred, let's begin with Putin's comments. He has rattled the nuclear saber before deliberately. Do we know why he's doing it now? What's the significance?
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Yeah. First of all, you're absolutely right. He has done it before and he has done deliberately before. And if you look at the sort of patterns since the full-on invasion of
Russia in Ukraine, he's actually done it at 70 junctures there, mostly when things weren't going so well for Vladimir Putin. You recall at the beginning of the invasion when he was saying, or when the Russians essentially were saying that it will only take a few days. There was a quick special military operation.
About five days into the operation, he was calling on the Russian nuclear forces to get into a heightened state of combat readiness. And people were already seeing, look, maybe this invasion isn't going as well as some people or as the Russians may have thought. Then just a couple of days ago when he did his address to the nation, he once again talked about the West threatening Russia and whether they didn't know that Russia has nuclear weapons.
And now, once again, and it seems as though right now the timing once again is key. Were just a couple of days from Russia's presidential election, which Vladimir Putin, by all accounts, is going to win in a landslide. But it seems though he wants to strengthen his position even more than he already has. And, of course, one of the things that we know, Jim, is that there are a lot of Russians who right now are suffering economic hardship because of the sanctions that are going, also because of the special military operation on the funds that are directed to it as well.
[15:30:02]
And one of the things that is he's telling Russians is look, we are a big nation. We can take on anybody including the United States. And I think it was also a message to Washington as well, saying our nuclear weapons are essentially better than your nuclear weapons, don't mess with Russia. That seemed to be the position that Vladimir Putin was taken, the one that he was portraying to a domestic audience, which, of course, is extremely important to portray Russia as a strong nation, but then also to the U.S. and its allies as well, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Yeah, of course not strong enough though to face any domestic political opposition since he puts them in jail.
Fred Pleitgen, thanks so much.
Joining me now to discuss, CNN national security analyst and former director of national intelligence, James Clapper.
Director, good to have you on today.
JAMES CLAPPER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Thanks, Jim.
SCIUTTO: So, first of all, when you listen to Putin rattle that nuclear saber with this kind of rhetoric, and again, like we were saying there, it's not the first time he's done it -- is that a threat or a promise, right? I mean, is that empty rhetoric or is there substance behind it that should cause concern?
CLAPPER: Well, I think its this for the first time he'd said something like this, we'd probably be more -- more excited about it. But he has made similar statements since the beginning of their invasion of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. So you have to take it seriously. I still believe that the use of nuclear weapons while possible is still unlikely. I think even Putin knows that's really crossing the Rubicon and who knows what the implications are if, if he were to use a nuclear weapon, and I don't -- the Russians don't know either.
So you have taken seriously but the Ukrainians, there has been a history of Ukraine attacking targets in Russia. There are exile groups, for example, or other groups that have attacked targets sabotage and the like and I think some of this, I think Fred gone to this a bit as some posturing both for the international as well as the domestic audience know he's going to come up for reelection here --
SCIUTTO: Right, yeah.
CLAPPER: -- in a few days
And I also think frankly that he's probably a little insecure right now and I think blustering about nuclear weapons makes him feel better.
SCIUTTO: There's a view in the U.S. intelligence community, this was in there unclassified threat assessment earlier this week, quoting from it here, that Russia's inability to achieve quick and decisive battlefield wins coupled with Ukrainian strikes within Russia, which you just noted, continues to drive concerns that Putin might use nuclear weapons.
And I had a story this weekend about how there was a period in late 2022 when the U.S. was deeply concerned that Russia, as it was getting pushed back in Ukraine and there was danger of thousands of Russian forces being surrounded that the U.S. became concerned that Russia was deeply considering a nuclear strike. Is that the potential trigger if he feels insecure, he feels like he's losing ground or might lose the war, that he would order such a strike?
CLAPPER: Well, that's what makes us -- making assessments like this very difficult, because I think a lot of it has to do with the subject feeling he has if -- and I think, you know, it seriously, if it threatens a state, a Russian state.
Well, it hasn't reached that point where, you know, the very institution of the Russian government are in jeopardy, they're not. If a state is going to collapse, meaning at the end of this reign, well, that might be different.
SCIUTTO: Yeah.
CLAPPER: But I -- I don't -- I don't think we're there and I also believe the Ukrainians understand that.
SCIUTTO: Well, that's, I mean, the question, basic question. Does he view himself as the state? In other words, would he view a threat of himself as justifying? CLAPPER: And, increasingly, I believe he does. He sees him and the Russian state as one in the same and he sees himself as indispensable to the preservation of the Russian state. Ergo, another election.
SCIUTTO: Right.
So to that election, whenever your point, whenever we say those words, I want to put it in quotes because it's not free or fair. He puts his opponents in prison, where, of course, his chief opponent just died in prison. There's concern from U.S. officials. I spoken to that after he wins this election. That is -- that he's fixed, that he will become in emboldened and that he might attempt to expand military operations in Ukraine maybe even have another mobilization?
CLAPPER: Well, since he doesn't really have to worry about the outcome of the election and they've been through this before.
[15:35:03]
I don't think that this election is going to have that sort of effect on him at all. I think he already feels emboldened, empowered I think he feels that tide is turning in Ukraine. And so I don't think this necessarily emboldens him any, any more than, you know, than he already is.
SCIUTTO: I want to talk about China if I can today, as you saw, Congress passed at least in the House, they pass this legislation that would force TikTok -- TikTok's parent company to sell it. Do you believe TikTok is a genuine threat to American users, to the American political process?
CLAPPER: It could be I say that out of sensitivity to the impact of information operations now. TikTok is potentially for the Chinese government a way to -- and this is what worries me about it, really influence opinions in this country, if the Chinese government so chose.
So I think it potentially does pose a huge threat. Depending on what's -- the arrangement changes and the (INAUDIBLE), which I think the objective of the legislation, that it could pose a real threat if the Chinese wanted to mount a serious and sophisticated information operations campaign in this country much as the Russians did, something I'm familiar with, as he did in 2016.
SCIUTTO: Also to China -- regarding China's threat to Taiwan. In my new book, "The Return of Great Powers", the CIA Director Bill Burns, he told me that Russia's stumbles in Ukraine might actually accelerate rather than deter Xi's invasion plans for Taiwan because Xi might calculate well, I better strike now because only over time, Taiwan will only become better defended against a possible Chinese invasion.
And I'll quote from him now, Burns said Xi, sort of like Putin with Ukraine, starts to worry that his window is closing to achieve what he believes is his destiny, which is to control Taiwan, Burns told me. That can lead to autocrats, especially in the absence of a lot of contrary reviews and their inner circle and anything else to make the kind of stupid decision that Putin made in Ukraine.
I wonder if you would have a similar view.
CLAPPER: Well, actually, when this question came up, initially, when Russia invaded Ukraine and so what, where does that put the Chinese in relation to Taiwan? My initial reaction was well, they're going to pause and go to school on all the mistakes of Russians. And the Chinese have a much more formidable problem with an amphibious invasion if that's how they chose to choose to do it across that 90- mile Taiwan strait, then the Russian simply rolling across the border and it didn't go well -- it hasn't gone well for the Russians.
I do think -- I mean, I have great respect for Bill Burns. I think he has a point that as time goes on, as an as we have a done more to help Taiwan prepare a defense, that that makes it more difficult, I think above all, though, I think Xi's on his timeline and he will want to be absolutely confident -- absolutely sure that if they do invade it, it will succeed.
Now, you know, Bill Burn's point about the window closing, could that accelerate that timeline and China's -- in China or Xi's mine? That's a good point. I don't know.
SCIUTTO: So much we don't know, right. But let's suppose we have to be prepared.
Director Jim Clapper, thanks so much for always for joining and helping us understand the world.
CLAPPER: Thanks, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Coming up next, Joe Biden just touched down in the state of Wisconsin. It's the fourth swing state he's visited just in the weeks since the State of the Union Address. We're going to look at whether his campaign might be feeling some win, finally, at its back.
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[15:41:32]
SCIUTTO: Live pictures there, President Biden landing in a state critical to his reelection, Wisconsin, a state, of course, part of the blue wall, which Trump flipped in 2016, Biden did bring back to Democrats in 2020, not by big margins in either direction.
Today's visit is part of Biden's post-State of the Union campaign tour, as he officially clinched his party's nomination and is now looking to energize Democrats ahead of November. There he is walking down the steps.
CNN's Jeff Zeleny, he's in Milwaukee where the president is headed. He joins me now.
Jeff, I mean, clearly this is part of a post-State of the Union Address tour. They felt they did well, there. Can you tell us what are you hearing from voters in the back this key battleground state? JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Jim, as the
president arrives in Milwaukee, as you said, just leaving Air Force One, he's really stepping on the ground of the critical place he needs to win back the White House.
Of course, Wisconsin is at the center of this campaign, really unlike any other previous year, and here's why Donald Trump, of course, will be re-nominated here this summer. The Republican National Convention is going to be here in Milwaukee. In 2016, Donald Trump carried Wisconsin by some 23,000 votes or so. Four years later, Joe Biden won it by about fewer than 21,000 votes.
So very, very narrow margins here. So President Biden coming back to Milwaukee to really begin his march to the general election campaign. And there's no doubt that he has a bit of a bounce in his step. White House advisers and campaign advisers believe that that State of the Union Address indeed energized voters. And we've been here for the last several days talking to many of his voters and supporters, and indeed it has among Democrats.
And that is the first of business trying to get Democrats and Democratic leaning independent voters back on this side of the Biden campaign really trying to ease some of those questions about if he's going to run and try and draw some excitement about the fact that he is running.
He'll be announcing an infrastructure program here in Milwaukee, part of that bipartisan restructure law. At a granular level, he'll be saying that some of that money will be used to revitalize a critical street, Sixth Street, leading into downtown Milwaukee.
But, Jim, there is no doubt the road to the White House leads through Wisconsin. It's a key part of that blue wall including Michigan and Pennsylvania as well. He's already hit Michigan. He's already hit Pennsylvania. He'll hit Michigan tomorrow. So you cannot win the White House without these three Great Lakes states, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Yeah, and I kind of wonder if we should stop calling it a blue wall since it's not -- not always, necessarily rock solid, right?
ZELENY: Not permanent
SCIUTTO: So I wonder, is Biden adjusting his approach specifically to address Democrats concerns over his handling of the Israel-Hamas war?
ZELENY: Jim, such a good question and it's a reminder that this is not a sequel for the 2020 campaign. There are many new issues and chief among them perhaps is the administration's handling of the Israel-Gaza War.
I was just speaking a few moments ago to a leader of the Milwaukee Women's Muslim coalition. And she tells me that there is a big effort underway. In fact, to send a message to President Biden that we've seen in other states like Michigan, like Minnesota, and there is still a primary election here on April 2nd, so there's a move underway to have voters vote on instructed. That is the Wisconsin version of uncommitted, if you will.
So, of course, so that's one of the ways to send a message. But what matters is for the general election.
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If there's not a policy change, will this foreign policy challenge impact his domestic politics here? And there's a good sense that it will, and here is why. Because of youth vote, the young vote progressive votes, that's part of the Biden coalition.
College campuses are key to any Democrat winning in Wisconsin. And we all know how potent this issue is on college campuses, Jim. So, certainly, that is a reminder this race is actually not the same as the race four years ago.
SCIUTTO: No question. It's different.
Jeff Zeleny, thanks so much.
Our political panel back to discuss, Ashley Allison, former Congressman Charlie Dent.
Ashley, first to you, there's clearly as Jeff was saying there, a spring in his step, Joe Biden following the State of the Union and also specifically for Wisconsin Democrats, they feel energized. They feel that the abortion issue moves them and we've seen proof of that in the states, they feel that their mobilization to win back control of the state supreme court, that they've got the infrastructure and they've got the energy.
And I wonder if you buy that. Do you do you believe that Democrats are positioned strongly for the fall?
ALLISON: I do. And mainly one reason that they are is because of the chair of the Democratic Party there, a friend that I've known before he was even in that role, Ben Wikler who had been doing a lot of work to make sure that that infrastructure, that gap ground game that we are going to have to really unleash this fall and over the summer is strong is steady and has been there over the course, particularly to that Supreme Court race. That was an off, off-cycle election, and they had record turnout and were able to secure judge, that actually is pro choice.
So between the issue on abortion, Joe Biden talking about what he is doing right now for the economy in Wisconsin, that's really what folks are going to have to do, is go out and explain to people for years ago, we were literally going on lockdown because of COVID and because of Joe Biden, we are now back out, our economy he is still recovering and be able to convey that message.
And then to Jeff's point, still speak to people who might not be satisfied on all issues around Joe Biden, whether that is how he is handling issues abroad. And I think that they can do it, but the Democratic Party infrastructure with content probably has been, as been a strong as ever for been. SCIUTTO: No question. Excuse me for that sneeze there.
Charlie Dent, to you, what is the only Republican --
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SCIUTTO: I appreciate It.
The Republican strategy there because when you listen to the messaging from Trump's surrogates, they're all saying, for years ago, you were much better. I mean, you know, based purely on the data, that's not true, right? Where the economy was midst of the pandemic, et cetera. But again, this is how voters feel, what's the Republican message for Wisconsin?
DEAN: Well, the Republican message in Wisconsin has to be really sharp and crisp because they've got their heads handed to him in that Supreme Court race last year, where Republicans haven't figured out yet how to speak on abortion. Many of them think it's simply a communication problem. I happen to think it's a policy problem. They're going to have to moderate.
But it's clear that both parties, both the Democrats and Republicans, in this case, Biden and Trump have very serious based problems. Biden's is, of course, with young people, he's experiencing serious erosion among Hispanics, some erosion among African Americans, he's got real issues.
And Republicans on the other hand, have a very real problem, not just in Wisconsin but elsewhere where there's a significant number of Republicans who are not going to vote for Donald Trump under any circumstances. And many of them are Nikki Haley voters.
And so, Donald Trump, he's got a base problem, too. If he gets convicted, that base problem becomes even more pronounced. I -- by my estimates, he needs at least 90 percent of the Republican vote to win the presidential election. I just don't know how he gets there now.
I mean, I think he's going to have a real problem. He got with 40 -- 46 percent of the vote. That's a ceiling.
SCIUTTO: Okay. So let's -- I want to talk about Georgia, what warning signs it has for both candidates. First, let's start if I can with you, Ashley on Biden in Georgia. Black organizers credited there with helping deliver Democrats the state of Georgia in 2020. They've been warning for months about enthusiasm for him.
How did they change that?
ALLISON: Again, Black voters want to know, what have you done for me? What have you done to improve the quality of their lives? Black voters are not looking for a celebrity. They are not looking for gold sneakers to motivate them. They want to have a quality of life and Joe Biden has a story to tell when you talk about the HBCUs in Georgia and how Joe Biden has done historical investments, when you talk about small businesses, the opportunities that are there.
And so I don't -- you know, there is this narrative right now that Black voters are going to go to the Republican Party. I don't think it's going to be a substantial difference from 2020, but the issue that we have to face is not just whether or not people will go to Donald Trump. That's not my concern.
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My concern is potential third party or just not engaging in the election this time and not voting. So going, talking to people about what's at stake, talking to them on the diversity of issues that align with where Black voters are, is how Joe Biden can win Georgia. And I'll just say, in 2020, most people did not think Joe Biden was going to win Georgia, nor did we think that we would get to -- not we, I always thought two Democratic senators, one who has now been reelected over and over again, Senator Warnock.
And organizing does matter. And I think that they have the infrastructure there to prove it.
SCIUTTO: And Trump matters, right? I mean, Trump arguably helped them lose those Senate races, the Republicans.
Okay, so for Trump --
ALLISON: Absolutely.
SCIUTTO: -- in Georgia, Charlie Dent, to your point, Nikki Haley voters, Biden won that state by 12,000 votes in 2020, 77,000 Republican voters voted and showed up for Nikki Haley in the state of Georgia. That can't be a good sign for Donald Trump in that state.
DENT: Well, again, its still a little early, but it is not a good sign. And your previous point that many Georgia Republicans are still furious with Donald Trump over his role in 2020 in those runoff elections, where you can make a very strong case that Donald Trump suppress the Republican vote for those runoffs costing Republicans two Senate seats.
So there's a lot of hostility and, of course, we don't even have to bring up Governor Kemp and Brad Raffensperger, and of course, Geoff Duncan, all of whom have had very serious issues with Donald Trump. So Donald Trump has done a lot to divide Republicans in Georgia. It remains be seen how he puts that back together again.
That said, he's proud probably in decent shape to win Georgia relative to some of the other swing states that we've been discussing. So it's really in a weird situation, but I also point out too, I agree with that Ashley that there's going to be a significant number of people voting for a third-party candidates or independent candidates in this cycle.
SCIUTTO: That's a wildcard as well.
Ashley Allison, Charlie Dent, thanks so much to both you. Coming up next, residents in one coastal town built a barrier to protect their homes from rising storm tides. But much of it washed away after just a single storm.
Bill Weir joins us next to explain.
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SCIUTTO: Welcome back.
Residents in one Massachusetts town are taking drastic measures to protect their homes from rising tides. They invested in a $600,000 sand dune barrier. Days after it was completed, though just a single storm washed half of it away.
CNN chief climate correspondent Bill Weir is following the story.
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BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT: Jim, under bluebird skies like this, right? Beautiful, sunny day. You can see why folks love this particular beach, Salisbury Beach. We're right near the New Hampshire border that they're about an hour north of Boston.
And people have been coming here for 50 years tell me, used to get tired walking your kids down to the waterline because high tide was so far away, but year-by year, foot by foot, they've watched high tide get higher and higher and closer to their homes.
In Massachusetts, a homeowner like this owns much of the beach up to the low tide line.
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And because the state won't replenish private property, the folks here have to defend for themselves. So, after a bunch of freakish back-to- back storms starting in December of last year, they pulled together $600,000 and trucked in 15,000 tons of sand to build this defensive sort of sacrificial dune here that they thought would last three years, at least, because that's what's always happened in this part of Massachusetts.
It lasted less than a day. Another high tide freak storm came last week and took away at least half of their value, $300,000 worth of sand or so. And you can see not all the homeowners actually opted into this plan and those that did not for this house, for example, saw the waves go right into the living room there.
So it gives you a stark example in the age of sea level rise how defending places like this are becoming more and more expensive. And its the haves and have-nots as to which house survives these increasing bigger storms as well. Now, the folks here are hoping that the state kicks in and sort of since a lot of their sand ended up on the state part of the beat says you should help us defend $2 billion worth of property values in this part of the state. They pay an outsized portion of teachers and cops salaries and the infrastructures of these towns. But this is just one of 79 towns and cities within this coastal surge zone as Massachusetts officially braces for up to two-and-a-half feet of sea level rise by 2050.
It's almost a foot now, just from the 2020 until today. And this is just the result of that a little bit of rise. It's supposed to be three times, four times, five times more in coming generations. So while some of the folks on this beach, including the organizers of the $600,000 sand purchase, tell me they don't believe in climate change science and they think this is just really a string of bad luck.
Other neighbors are starting to think this is not -- this is unlike anything we've ever lived through before. And we have to think about the possibility of seawater coming through these homes into the wetlands, on the other side. There is not much margin for error here. This particular strip is so tight.
But again, a microcosm of coastal debates around the country, places like Rhode Island are buying up condemn properties instead of encouraging folks to rebuild and really vulnerable spots. It's called managed retreat and retreat is not really a word in the American vocabulary and a lot of places.
So how this plays out here and in other places could determine life in the agency level rise, the haves and have-nots. And ultimately, Jim, who pays for it all?
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SCIUTTO: Thanks to Bill Weir.
I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.
"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.
