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CNN International: Gaza Aid Worker Deaths Spark Global Outrage; Biden, Sanders Team Up On Lowering Health Care Costs; WSJ Poll: Close Races In Key Battleground States; Trump Attacks Migrants, Warns Of "Biden Border Bloodbath"; Blinken Attends NATO Foreign Ministers Meeting In Brussels; Deadly 7.4 Magnitude Earthquake Hits Taiwan. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired April 03, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:27]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: It is 8:00, p.m. in London, 9:00 p.m. in Gaza, 3:00 a.m. in Taipei, 3:00 p.m. here in Washington. I'm Jim Sciutto and thanks so much for joining me today on CNN NEWSROOM.

Let's get right to the news.

We begin with the ongoing outrage and pressing questions following an Israeli airstrike in Gaza on a crucial life-saving aid convoy carrying food to the needy. Seven aid workers and their security guards were killed. And today their bodies were transported out of Gaza to be sent home.

The founder of World Central Kitchen, Jose Andres, writing in "The New York Times" called the strike, quote, a direct attack on clearly marked vehicles whose movements were known by the Israeli defense forces.

We realize today that I interviewed one of the victims of that strike, Zomi Frankcom, just last September while she was delivering food and aid to the victims of the Morocco earthquake.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: But let's put that picture back up on the screen here if we can, because it also shows the danger that you and your teams put themselves through. I mean, that's a helicopter. It's really hanging off the edge of a mountain dirt road there. It shows the risk you're taking.

Tell us how you manage that along with what is your main focus, which is of course just feeding people who are hungry

ZOMI FRANKCOM, AID WORKER: Absolutely good as you say. World Central Kitchen's laser focus is on providing fresh meals, which provides hope and comfort in times such as these which are absolutely terrible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Absolutely terrible. President Biden said last night that he is outraged by this Israeli

attack. One question, will there now be any consequences for U.S. support for Israel or Israeli plans to invade Rafah where more than 1 million Palestinian civilians remain?

CNN's Jeremy Diamond is in Jerusalem.

And, Jeremy, you're well aware, I imagine, of the outrage here in Europe, around the world and the quite strong comments condemning this strike and holding Israel responsible for this strike from Jose Andres. In Israel, is there anything similar? And how is the government responded?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly, what we have seen from the Israeli government is the recognition of what a big deal this is to kind of put it in the most basic terms, both in terms of the international pressure, in terms of the gravity of this strike that killed seven workers of the World Central Kitchen, six of whom are foreign nationals, which is certainly playing a big part in that international outrage. And in the swiftness of the Israeli response and what the Israeli government and its military have done is acknowledged the fact that the Israeli military carried out this strike and that it was a mistake with the Israeli military's chief of staff, its top general going so far as to call this a grave mistake and publicly apologizing in a video statement on behalf of the Israeli military for what he said was a misidentification of this target.

But make no mistake that this convoy of vehicles was certainly targeted, whether or not the Israeli military knew that this was a convoy of the World Central Kitchen is another question. Of course, we know that the World Central Kitchen did inform the Israeli military of its movements prior to departing. And we also know that to at least two of the three vehicles that were struck prominently displayed the logos of that humanitarian aid group.

And this was not trust one strike. We've geo-located the locations of three different vehicles in this convoy that were struck by what appears to be precision guided missiles indicating these vehicles are about one-and-a-half miles apart from the first two, the third one indicating three separate strikes, likely carried out by a drone, likely with surveillance, giving the military a pretty sizable visibility over the situation.

Now, in the wake of this, of course, what were seeing is several aid groups reassessing the security situation, including the United Nations, which says that it is suspending nighttime operations for at least the next 48 hours. And Jose Andres for his part saying in an interview with "Reuters" that this was the Israeli military systematically targeting these vehicles, and this was not just a bad luck situation. He is also calling on the United States to pressure the Israeli prime minister to end this war in Gaza.

President Biden and his advisers of four now, while they are expressing outrage, they are continuing to express support for this war, at least for Israel's fight against Hamas.

SCIUTTO: Jeremy Diamond, thanks so much from Jerusalem.

[15:05:03]

Well, 13 leading humanitarian and human rights organizations, including Save the Children, Amnesty International, and Oxfam International have issued a statement calling for urgent international action to stop Israel from escalating its military operations into Rafah. These groups warned that if Israel proceeds, the consequences could be, quote, catastrophic. This has civilians across Gaza are already starving, facing the possibility of famine.

Tess Ingram is with UNICEF. She joins us now from Rafah in Gaza.

Tess, thanks so much for joining us.

TESS INGRAM, UNICEF SPOKESPERSON: Thanks for having me, Jim.

SCIUTTO: I want to ask you in the wake of this strike, on aid workers killing seven, the IDF says it is doing all it can to protect civilians in Gaza, including aid workers, more cautiously an IDF spokesperson said to me than any army in the world.

Is that an accurate description? In your experience, in UNICEF's experience in Gaza, does that hold up?

INGRAM: No, it doesn't hold up to me, Jim. The Gaza Strip is currently the most dangerous place in the world to be a child. And we've seen reportedly more than 32,000 Palestinians killed, a large proportion of them, children, children make up half of the population of the Gaza Strip. And on top of that, we've seen almost 200 humanitarian aid workers killed as well.

So this is not a safe environment and that is largely because of the intensity of the hostilities and the volatility and unpredictability. There are systems that are meant to keep civilians safe, even wars have roles, and clearly those systems are not functioning properly in the Gaza Strip, and we're seeing an enormous loss of civilian life because of it.

SCIUTTO: One of those systems is communication between aid groups like World Central Kitchen and like UNICEF, with Israeli defense forces. Can you describe how that coordination works? How does UNICEF communicate with them? And are you confident that those communications make you safer?

INGRAM: So this is a system that humanitarian aid groups use all around the world whenever we operate in a conflict as a humanitarian agency, we'll communicate with the parties to that conflict, to say, hey, we want to go on a mission to this place. This is where we're going to go and what we're going to do, at what time? Is that okay? Can we do that safely?

And we will read generally receive a response that says, no, this mission can't be facilitated, or yes, we'd give you a safety assurance. Now, World Central Kitchen said that they coordinated with Israel for this mission, which means that they've got that safety assurance, and yet this still happens.

And this is not the first time, Jim, that we've seen issues on coordinated missions. UNRWA has had issues with three trucks being hit while they were on the road. They've also had a deconflicted warehouse that's been struck.

So, the system is currently not functioning properly, and we've been calling for some time now for the assurances that we get to be respected to protect us and the people that we're here trying to help.

SCIUTTO: Beyond safety issues and safety from Israeli strikes, there's the question of getting aid that is necessary to the people of Gaza. The IDF spokesperson Daniel Hagari told me earlier this week that Israel wants to flood Gaza with humanitarian aid. He says that they've doubled the amount of trucks and food by the World Food Program into the north of Gaza, and that they're working with different aid organizations here.

Is that true? Do you believe that commitment from the Israeli Defense Forces?

INGRAM: Look, we haven't seen it in action on the ground yet. I would love if that commitment transpired. But what we're seeing at the moment is an enormous humanitarian catastrophe. Children on the brink of famine, many already dead for malnutrition in the north of the Gaza Strip.

And I can tell you that I've met children who are fading away in front of their parents' eyes. Ive met children who have been buried under the rubble, children who have lost their lives, children who have been orphaned, and we adjust not getting enough at and to be able to meet the needs of these kids. Aid is declining, not increasing.

SCIUTTO: You've seen attempts to get it in by airdrops. Of course, you have this seaborne path that was opened by World Central Kitchen. Of course, that now is threatened due to these deadly strikes here.

Is it your view that the road crossings really must be the principal way to get aid into the -- into Gaza that's needed?

INGRAM: Absolutely. And that provides us with the best chance to get aid in efficiently cost-effectively and at scale, 250 trucks is equivalent to 25 ships.

[15:10:05]

And we could get 250 trucks in, in one day, 25 ships a day. That would be fantastic.

But the issue we have at the moment is we're not reaching that level. And there are only two crossings open and both of them are in the south. There are crossings in the north that could be opened that are just minutes away from the children that are dying from malnutrition. And if we could only open those crossings, we could get aid indirectly to the north, which would also protect humanitarian work as it prevent them from having to drive the whole way across the Gaza Strip. SCIUTTO: What will the effect been now of this deadly strike on aid

workers here in terms of casting fear to aid organizations and perhaps blocking or limiting the access and the work that you can do?

INGRAM: So we've already seen some organizations reconsider how, how and if they're going to operate in the Gaza strip and that's devastating because the needs are so enormous and we just have to continue to do everything we can to try and meet them. We are staying and delivering. We've been in Gaza for 40 years and we're not going anywhere.

But what we're trying to do is figure out how we can improve the systems that protect us. And I know that a lot of conversations and meetings are underway in light of the terrible incident that happened on Monday. So hopefully from this tragic some sort of positive change can come. But ultimately, what's needed, Jim, is a ceasefire because that's really the only way that we can do our drop and children can see an end to the fighting.

SCIUTTO: Well, Tess Ingram, thanks so much for joining us and we wish safety for you and your team operating there.

INGRAHAM: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: For more now on the IDF response, how can prevent this, I'm joined now by IDF spokesperson, Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner.

Lieutenant Colonel, thanks so much for joining this afternoon.

LT. COL. PETER LERNER, IDF SPOKESPERSON: Jim, good afternoon.

SCIUTTO: So regarding this deadly strike on the World Central Kitchen workers, Prime Minister Netanyahu said Israeli forces unintentionally struck innocent people. Jose Andres, however, of World Central Kitchen, of course, the founder, he is accusing Israel of, quote, systematically targeting those aid workers crews, noting that his group has clear communication with the Israeli military.

I want to play now his comments and get your reaction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE ANDRES, FOUNDER, WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN: This was not just bad luck situation where, oops, we dropped the bomb in the wrong place or not, this was over 1.5, 1.8 kilometers with a very defined humanitarian convoy that had signs in the top, in the roof. Very colorful logo that we are obviously very proud of, that that's very clear who we are and what we do.

What I know is that we were targeted deliberately nonstop until everybody was dead in this convoy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Targeted deliberately. What's your response to that? LERNER: Jim, this is clearly a tragedy, a tragedy that should have never happened. Our chief of staff, the IDF chief of staff, Lieutenant General Herzi Halevi, said very clearly that it was a mistake and misidentification. And that we need to investigate what transpired.

The reality is one where the investigations are underway. We expect their conclusions in the next couple of days. I'll be happy to join you and share with you the outcomes.

We know that the humanitarian effort is important. You spoke to Rear Admiral Hagari just a couple of days ago, who emphasized the importance and actually invited all international organizations that want to come and facilitate the humanitarian activities to come. And this is a tragedy of a complex wall situation. A reality that should not happen, and a reality that we have to prevent in the future.

SCIUTTO: Well, as you know, aid organizations are reconsidering that very question as to whether they can trust assurances from the Israeli military that they will be allowed safe passage. And you described this as a mistake.

The issue isn't -- and by the way, CNN has geo-located this as well, is that this was three vehicles separated by some mile and a half altogether. It appears to be multiple strikes, so it was not one individual bad call. It seems to be a series of bad, bad calls here. How is that possible given the rules of engagement as described by you and Admiral Hagari to me earlier this week?

LERNER: So as I said, and I echoed what the chief of the IDF staff said, misidentification, it doesn't mean that those vehicles perhaps -- and I don't want to speculate too much, but because the investigation is ongoing. But if by saying misidentification, then obviously the vehicles were identified and therefore struck.

The strike -- it should not have happened. It is a grave mistake and mistake that partners that are doing good in the Gaza Strip, paid dearly with.

[15:15:04]

You know, yesterday, we facilitated the access -- and I was listening to the former speaker just as I was coming on -- we facilitated the access of 266 trucks into Gaza yesterday. The U.N. system only distributed 120 of those inside the Gaza strip.

So there's aid that needs to go in, aid that we are facilitating to make sure can reach the people that are in dire need. This is a tragedy. We need to make sure, we need to learn the lessons, we have to understand and get to the bottom of what transpired what was the reason for the strike?

SCIUTTO: What are you talking --

LERNER: As I said, I expect that will be in a couple of days.

SCIUTTO: On the misidentification as you saw, and we've been playing pictures of that. These were clearly marked with the highly identifiable and familiar logo of World Central Kitchen, which has done its work around the world. This is a team that communicated with the IDF prior and they say, were given assurances, assurances of safe passage.

This gets to -- because there have been other incidents like this as well, I'll name even IDF soldiers shooting Israeli hostages who are waving a white flag, this raises broader questions about the standards that the IDF applies before it shoots, before it fires.

And I want to play how Admiral Hagari described those standards to me on Monday hours before this strike. And then see how those two things come together. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REAR ADM. DANIEL HAGARI, CHIEF SPOKESPERSON, ISRAEL DEFENSE FORCES: I want to repeat it again -- I want to repeat again because it's important, any American general that will visit here, the Israeli air force and the Israeli intelligence and will be involved in those strikes will see that we do it, and I repeat it, more cautiously than any army in the world. We have so much lawyers in the room and so much intelligence in the room in any strikes that we conduct.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: And yet, all those lawyers, the intelligence, it's not just this strike which by the way was multiple strikes, we should be clear over the course of this convoy, but previous instances were clearly those lawyers and the intelligence officials in the room made repeated bad calls.

So what does Israel going to do to raise the standards so this doesn't happen again?

LERNER: So, first of all, I need to reiterate. We need to wait and see the outcome of the investigations. We have two investigations that are running in parallel. One that is an operational investigation to understand the immediate influences of the flow forces on the ground so that we can continue facilitating the access of humanitarian aid, and an independent investigation -- independent of the chain of command by former senior military officials in the IDF, senior officers that are privy and no and can understand the nature of the conflict.

And we need to wait before we jump to conclusions about what actually happened in this specific case.

What admiral Hagari was alluding to and what he was very clear on in his comments is yes, indeed, when we look around and our colleagues from around the world are looking at us, from West Point to Sandhurst, our colleagues are looking at us and saying, you're setting a golden standard, a standard that --

(CROSSTALK) SCIUTTO: I'm not sure that's true. I'm not sure that's true because we know that U.S. commanders have met with Israeli officials to share their own experience. And we know that the Biden administration in urban combat, and in fact they are urged less aggressive tactics than Israel has employed, and we know that the White House has repeatedly pressured Israeli officials to hem in those military operation because the White House is concerned as well by the number of civilian deaths.

LERNER: Jim, don't take my word for it. Look up. John Spencer from the Urban Warfare Center and Institute in West Point. He's very clear on his analysis of how this war is being fought.

It doesn't mean there can't be mistakes. Every war throughout the course of history, there are mistakes. The reality is a warfare that is conducted in urban areas will always result in unfortunate civilian tragedies as we've experienced.

(CROSSTALK)

SCIUTTO: It's the scale, though, you know, Lieutenant Colonel, it's the scale. Thirteen -- more than 13,000 dead children and a strike like this one, where the team did everything right, they made it clear where they were and they traveled in vehicles that were clearly marked. I mean, that's the issue, right, is that even when folks follow those rules, you can't guarantee their safety

LERNER: So I would say, first of all, let's not regurgitate Hamas's figures. We don't know what the real casualty number is.

(CROSSTALK)

SCIUTTO: U.S. intelligence, U.S. intelligence by the way, you quote U.S. military, the U.S. intelligence has found very similar estimates of civilian casualties in Gaza. So I'm not regurgitating Hamas statistics here.

LERNER: Well, I saw that the Pentagon redacted that -- those figures and said that they were based on Hamas's numbers.

[15:20:02]

We need to be very, very cautious in accepting anything Hamas says.

But I would say, of course, there is a reality on the ground, a war being conducted in urban warfare in a situation unprecedented in against an enemy that has, over the last 16 to 17 years, built and weaponize the civilian arena precisely so that I wouldn't be sitting here asking -- answering your questions because they are trying to exasperate the situation, they are trying to create a civilian tragedy on the other side.

Now, we are operating and indeed -- sorry, we are operating against a ruthless enemy. And we are operating onto the understanding that we need to do everything possible in order to limit civilian casualties, and unfortunately, this tragedy with the World Central Kitchen is one that exemplifies exactly, and I would say, despite that, the deep tragedy of this event, there are thousands of humanitarian movements taking place all the time. Every single day we are coordinating.

And so while we have to get to the bottom of what happened, what was the causes, what were the results? And more importantly, how do we make sure it doesn't happen again in the future? We have to make sure that the humanitarian aid can continue to flow as Rear Admiral Hagari pointed out, that is what plan on doing.

SCIUTTO: Well, I will take you up on your offer when the investigation is complete, to share the results of the investigation.

Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner of the IDF, thanks so much for joining.

LERNER: Good day.

SCIUTTO: When we do come back, President Biden enlisting the help of his former campaign rival Bernie Sanders. The two teaming up today on an issue critical to Democrats reelection pitch. That's health care. It's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Today at the White House, rivals-turned-allies joining forces on a cause key to Democrats' political messaging leading up to November, lowering health care costs.

[15:25:02]

President Biden and Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders focused today on the administration's effort to make prescription drugs more affordable, including commonly used medications such as insulin and asthma inhalers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We know we've made historic progress in the last three years, 35 bucks for insulin for seniors, $35 a month for inhalers, for asthma, $2,000 a year of total cap on costs for seniors. We're lowering the cost of some of the most expensive prescription drugs for seniors.

And what I want to do next, what we want to do next is these caps and cost for everyone -- everyone, not just seniors. With Bernie's help, we're showing how health care ought to be a right, not a privilege in America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: So do those claims stand up?

Here now to break it down and whether these policies are working, Victoria Knight. She is a health care reporter for "Axios".

Victoria, thanks so much for joining.

VICTORIA KNIGHT, HEALTH CARE POLICY REPORTER, AXIOS: Jim, thanks so much for having me.

SCIUTTO: So, this is clearly central to the Democrats reelection message. Poll after poll shows Americans, though, generally just aren't aware of Biden's record on health care. Can you tell us? Exactly what he has done to me, particularly on this principle claim of lowering health care costs. What's true?

KNIGHT: Yeah. I mean, first of all, you're exactly right. Polling consistently shows majority of Americans are not aware that the IRA, the Inflation Reduction Act, had these health care provisions and what those provisions are. First of all, one of the biggest things is it allows Medicare to negotiate the prices of certain number of prescription drugs. So starting out, it's going to be ten drugs and that solely increases over the years to 15 and 20.

And so, that means right now were in the process of negotiation so we don't know how much those prices will end up being. But eventually it should lower the cost of some drugs and also cap insulin at $35 for just seniors on Medicare and then it also capped the out-of-pocket costs for seniors to $2,000 per year.

And it also basically penalizes drug companies if they increase their prices faster than the rate of inflation. So those are the biggest provisions.

SCIUTTO: One of the things that often look at is how much things cost overseas versus here in the U.S. Today, Senator Sanders, he mentioned an inhaler that cost $49 in the UK, but $645 here in the U.S. Why that difference? And is there anything being done to address that?

KNIGHT: Well, certainly, President Biden, Senator Sanders want to argue that they are trying to do something to address that. I mean, I think it's a part of our complex health care system. European countries have very different system they do allow their governments to negotiate drug prices with companies.

As I said, this is a first-time Medicare has ever done this. So we're just starting out that process here in the U.S. and it's basically just because drug companies can kind of set prices depending on their estimates of how much things cost and to produce some things like that.

SCIUTTO: We'll see how voters see this going into November.

Victoria Knight, thanks so much.

So, are events like the one we just saw on health care making an impact on Joe Biden's polls, including his approval rating?

It's been just about a month since his State of the Union Address, which many in the White House believe help jump-start his campaign. Since then, the president has hit every major swing state, opened more than 100 field offices across the country and held a record shattering fundraiser -- in just one night, bringing in $26 million.

Now, a new "Wall Street Journal" poll offers some of the first insights into the effects of that strategy, if any, in key battleground states.

CNN senior data reporter Harry Enten here to break it all down.

Harry, I mean, there had been some talk that poles were looking a little better for Biden in recent weeks, particularly post-State of the Union. What are these polls show?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Yeah, there are some polls that show that some other polls that perhaps don't show it looking nearly as good for the president. And this might be one of those that shows that perhaps not looking good for the president. All right, so this is across the seven swing states that "The Wall Street Journal" polled. What do we see an aggregate?

We see that Donald Trump is ahead of Joe Biden, 47 percent to 44 percent. Keep in mind that Joe Biden won six of the seven swing states back in 2020. So, not a particularly good picture form. Now if you add in the third party candidates look, you've got Robert F. Kennedy Jr. at 11 percent, that in fact would be the best third-party showing for -- a best showing for a third-party candidate since the 1990s, and Ross Perot.

But again, Donald Trump still ahead of Joe Biden by three points. Now, if you dig in to the individual seven states, which you see, a lot of races that are too close to call or what we would call, no clear leader because the margin of error is larger in these swing states because there are smaller sample sizes.

[15:30:05]

But Donald Trump is ahead by five points in Arizona. That we have a clear leader in. Joe Biden's also trailing down Trump. Donald Trump is ahead by eight points in North Carolina. The rest of the states, there's no clear leader, but again, you're seeing a lot more red on the board, than blue, and that just sort of is part of what this poll shows you, which is that Donald Trump at this particular point does in fact seem to be ahead of Joe Biden in the key seven swing states that this poll looked at.

SCIUTTO: We have a larger conversation about what actual votes and various special elections, what they've indicated, and I know those can be added.

ENTEN: We've had those conversations before.

SCIUTTO: We have. On the top issues though, what do these? Polls show about how voters in key battleground states who they trust between Biden and Trump more.

ENTEN: Yeah. You know, the top lines are one thing, but lets take a look at the individual issues and that can sort of gives you an idea of why an aggregate Joe Biden is trailing Donald Trump.

So who is trusted more on the economy and inflation? Donald Trump by 20. Immigration and border security, Donald Trump by 20. Israel-Hamas war obviously been very much in the news, Donald Trump by 14. Now, take a look down here. Where are the issues where Joe Bidens doing a little bit better. Well, he's doing better on abortion, he's trusted more on that by 12 points, but that's not really what the 2024 campaign is shaping up to be about, perhaps outside the state of Florida.

How about protecting democracy, something that Joe Biden and Democrats have really put as the focus of their campaign? What we see is that Joe Biden only has a one point lead that is well within the margin of error. So you're looking at the issues. No wonder that Joe Biden is trailing Donald Trump because Donald Trump is trusted in more issues than Joe Biden is.

And if you just take a wider sort of view back, is the U.S. on the right track? If you look across these seven swing states, just 25 percent of voters say that they are. And if you look back in election since 1980, where the incumbent party loses the White House guess what? That matches? 25 percent said the countries on the right direction.

So, overall, this poll is suggesting an environment that's much friendlier to the Republicans and Donald Trump than one that's friendly to Joe Biden and the Democrats, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Harry Enten, thanks so much for breaking down the numbers.

ENTEN: My pleasure, my friend.

SCIUTTO: So while President Biden focuses today on health care, an issue he believes will help him in November.

His opponent, former President Donald Trump, is doing the same, leaning in on immigration and issue he believes will help him. At campaign events in Michigan and Wisconsin last night, Trump painted an extremely dark image of migration, highlighting specific incidents of violent crimes to, well, fearmonger. There was no evidence of a migrant driven crime wave as he regularly claims. Facts just don't back it up.

Take a listen, however, to how he talks about it and the violent rhetoric he uses to describe the state of the country.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is country changing, it's country threatening and it's country wrecking. They have wrecked our country. We will stop the plunder, rape, slaughter, and destruction of our American suburb, cities and towns.

The treasury will be raped, plundered, and rob to bear to pay for welfare, free health care, free housing, food stamps, Medicaid.

I will end the carnage, bloodshed, and killing.

(END VIDEO CLIP) SCIUTTO: Carnage, bloodshed, killing, rape.

With me now to discuss all this, two political reporters, CNN analysts, Laura Barron-Lopez of "PBS NewsHour" and Seung Min Kim of "The Associated Press".

Listen, it's not going to change. I mean, this is the way Trump has talked about going back to 2016 while he was president, since his presidency and now as he's running for president again.

I just wonder, does, Laura Barron-Lopez, the data seem to show this works for him, right? I mean, in polling, it seems to, right? In special elections in the midterms that we've had, even go back to 2018, it has not. I just wonder what's the truth?

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yeah. Well, you're right, Jim, and that it does work for him with his base, this type of rhetoric, this violent rhetoric. I mean, we see that a majority of Republican base voters believe his lies about election. We see that roughly almost 30 percent of Republican voters think that violent maybe necessary, in order to get the country back on the right track.

But when you look at the broader general electorate, I think it's a different question because there's Republican pollsters who conduct focus groups that I've talked to who say that when you're looking at the world of those other -- another 30 percent of Republican voters that don't support Donald Trump, those voters are persuadable and they are much more in line with John McCain, Mitt Romney type of Republican voters in the past, who don't like where they see, the direction they see their party going in.

And they are basing it a lot on the fact that Donald Trump is facing some 91 felony counts, on the fact that they consider him to be attacking the Constitution and democracy. And those Republican voters could very well be persuadable for President Joe Biden. And this type of rhetoric, it doesn't really work with them.

SCIUTTO: Well, in his immigration focus, one of the stories he likes to highlight is the killing of Ruby Garcia, allegedly killed by her friend who had entered the country illegally back in March.

[15:35:05]

Trump, he's talked about escape her case multiple times, did so again yesterday, claiming he'd spoken to her family, but her sister Mavi says that just never happened.

So I want to play now, what Trump said and then what Mavi told Target 8, a local news station. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Now, Ruby's loved ones and community are left grieving for this incredible young woman, remembering what they called her. They said she had just as most contagious laughter and when she walked into a room, she lit up that room and I've heard that from so many people. I spoke to some of her family.

MAVI GARCIA, VICTIM'S SISTER: He didn't ask speak with any of us. So it was kind of shocking seeing that he has said that he has spoke with us and, you know, seeing, well, misinforming people on live TV.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Yeah, misinforming. Lying is another word

Seung Min, listen, we've seen Trump do that before. Sometimes he still manages to get the message across. I mean, he's convinced the big portion of the country that the election was stolen and there's no evidence of that do lies like that in the midst of the broader message, do they weaken that message? Do they weaken some of the inroads he seems to have been making with Latino voters?

SEUNG MIN KIM, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, they certainly don't help, but I think you have a point, Jim, in saying that lies or the misinformation that he makes on examples like that doesn't actually take away from the broader immigration message that he's trying to send a voters, which is that really dark, almost apocalyptic picture of America when it comes -- with illegal migration and that's the -- that's the portrait that former President Trump is really trying to paint for voters because he knows and Democrats and Republicans now that Trump inherently has an advantage over President Biden when it comes to the issue of immigration.

And now, Democrats and President Biden and the White House have really tried to turn that on. Republicans head a little bit for the last couple of months when Republicans rejected that border security deal, deal here in Washington. But I think the persistent bad pull numbers for Biden when it comes to immigration shows that a lot of those process arguments don't work with voters outside of the beltway and immigration is really going to be a strong issue for Trump of over the next couple of months, several months.

SCIUTTO: And it is remarkable. I mean, it was a bipartisan plan to boost security at the border, raise the standard which, which Trump cynically and clearly stated he didn't want to get Biden a win and yet there we are.

Laura Barron-Lopez, Seung Min Kim, thanks so to both of you.

KIM: Thank you

SCIUTTO: Still to come, a major earthquake shakes Taiwan, the strongest the island has felt in some 25 years, goodness. We're going to live with the region with the latest on the damage.

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[15:41:06]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back.

Earlier today, Secretary of State Antony Blinken met with his NATO counterparts to discuss critical aid to Ukraine. NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg is considering a range of options to shore up long-term support for Ukraine, including transferring leadership of the group, overseeing such aid from the U.S. to NATO, with worries about the continued delay in the providing aid.

Throughout this war, U.S. officials have stressed they do not want to risk direct conflict with Russia. For its part, Russia has repeatedly rattled the nuclear saber as it warns and threatens the risks of a broader conflict. Is a nuclear exchange, more conceivable today than we realize?

Joining me now to discuss as Annie Jacobsen. She's author of the new book, "Nuclear War: A Scenario".

Annie, thanks so much for joining.

ANNIE JACOBSEN, AUTHOR: Well, thank you for having me.

SCIUTTO: It's remarkable book and it's concerning. In my own book, I reported that in 2022, the U.S. began preparing rigorously for Russia potentially striking Ukraine with a tactical nuclear weapon. And it struck me that one of the issues U.S. officials struggled with was defining exactly what Russian nuclear doctrine is.

Do we know under what specific circumstances Russia would consider order a nuclear strike? Or is that something of a concerning mystery?

JACOBSEN: I think it remains a concerning mystery and its a serious concern at that. As you know, from all of this reporting, we're really living at the razors edge with this kind of new found resurgence in talking about a nuclear threat, you and I both know this, used to be off the table rhetoric.

SCIUTTO: Yeah, it's clearly back on the table. You wrote in the book. And this one stood out to us, time and again, declassified nuclear war games have demonstrated that if deterrence fails, this is how it ends with Armageddon, with civilization being destroyed.

Good Lord, I mean, is the world closer to the circumstances that would create a nuclear exchange? Then the public realizes?

JACOBSEN: I think so. And I think, you know, the reason I wrote the book and thank you for that quote there is to demonstrate to people in appalling detail, just how horrific a nuclear war would be, you know, second-by-second, moment by moment from nuclear launch to nuclear winter.

I think then people can join this conversation that people like you and I have -- unfortunately, regularly, and, you know, perhaps move us back from that brink of brinksmanship, which is profoundly dangerous.

SCIUTTO: Yeah, the circumstances are so appalling. You don't even want it anywhere near the table, right? Let alone on the table.

You specifically examine what a nuclear war would look like if North Korea fired a missile, first. And I wonder is North Korea in your view, the most likely actor or spark for something like this, one of the most likely? Why did you focus on that?

JACOBSEN: You know, as you know from reading the book, I interviewed scores of national security top tier individuals who are responsible for these kind of decision-making should they ever have to come to pass? And it was in an interview with Richard Garwin, who actually drew the plans of the first thermonuclear weapon, Garwin's now in his 90s that he proposed the worst-case scenario of being a nuclear armed nation that had a nihilistic madman at the helm and that points us toward North Korea.

I think that's was coupled with one of the impetus of the book was during the previous administration when you had an American president, President Trump, you know, talking about fire and fury and using that same nuclear saber rattling that is so dangerous that, that sort of became the really most prescient, most concerning scenario to write out in the book. So that's exactly what I did.

[15:45:29]

SCIUTTO: I want to ask about U.S. nuclear doctrine here because it maintains a nuclear launch policy called launch on warning. Former Secretary of Defense William Perry, who has been such a vocal voice on this, told you, once we are warned of a nuclear attack, we prepare to launch. This is policy, we do not wait.

So I'm curious what qualifies as such a warning. And are there are fail-safes if for instance, one sensor, one satellite, one communication is wrong?

JACOBSEN: I mean, that's exactly the scenario, the problems that come up in a nuclear scenario.

And so, what Perry explained to me and others confirm is you have this system of satellites in space that is so technically advanced, that can notify the Defense Department, and, wow, is it a big notification with under a fraction of a second, warning as soon as that launch happens, and there begins this incredible sort of sequence of events that becomes so terrifying. Secondary confirmation happens about nine minutes later from a ground radar system and yes, at that point in any nuclear scenario, the president is asked to launch on warning.

SCIUTTO: Goodness. Well, Annie Jacobsen, author of the book, again, "Nuclear War: A Scenario". It's alarming, but we need to know these facts. So we're prepared. Thanks so much for joining.

JACOBSEN: Thanks for having me.

SCIUTTO: And still to come, a major earthquake has shaken Taiwan, the strongest the island is felt in 25 years -- when you go live to the region with the latest on the damage.

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[15:50:21]

SCIUTTO: Now to the massive earthquake that rock Taiwan, divers -- drivers stopped on highways and, bridges roads started shaking during the morning commute. Wow, could see it there. Taiwan's fire agency reports the death toll stands at least nine people with injuries nearing 1,000 is the strongest earthquake in Taiwan in 25 years, 7.4 quake, that's big, toppled buildings.

Goodness. Triggered this landslide on the islands eastern coast, wow. Very frightening to see that.

CNN's Hanako Montgomery is in Tokyo.

Tell us, do we know -- do we have a good sense now of the true extent of the casualties here at this point and the damage?

HANAKO MONTGOMERY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Jim, I mean, we're hearing some preliminary information about the extent of damage. Like you mentioned, we know that at least nine people have died, and nearly 1,000 people were left injured because of this earthquake. We're also hearing from the Taiwanese authorities that at least 137 people are still trapped in Hualien province, which is located off the east coast of Taiwan, which was very close to the epicenter.

Also, you know, the eastern coast of Taiwan is where most of the island's earthquakes take place. So though they're used to it, this is a very, very significant earthquake to shake the island.

Now, just a bit of context about Hualien County, it's known to be a tourist hotspot. It has several hiking routes. It has a famous, famous gorge where people go both within Taiwan and also international tourist. And in fact, of the nine people who are confirmed dead, three of them were hiking around Taroko Gorge when rocks fell down and killed them.

So again the authorities right now, they're trying to rescue some of the people who are still stuck in Hualien County. We know that most of them are in a mining area. And in order to get them out, the Taiwanese defense ministry has deployed a military troop oops, and they're working with local governments to help get those people out.

Now, also, the Taiwanese government is warning about potential aftershocks that we could be seeing with magnitudes ranging from 6.5 to 7.0. So, you know, those shocking videos that you saw there, Jim, I mean, potentially this could continue and the damage could potentially be even more exacerbated, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yeah, some of those videos -- the landslides just, just remarkable.

Hanako Montgomery, thanks so much for joining.

Please do stay with us. Were going to have more news right after this short break.

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[15:55:34] SCIUTTO: The countdown to Monday's solar eclipse that will sweep across the United States is on totality when the moon will entirely block out, the sun will occur along a more than 100-mile wide path all the way from Texas two main an estimated 20 million people in the travel to another city in order to fall the view that the last full eclipse that was in 2017, millions more are expected to travel for this one.

Please do join us Monday for CNN's coverage as we track the eclipse from Mexico across America, into Canada, and experienced the eclipse from numerous locations along with plenty of science and excitement along the way.

Our special coverage starts at 1:00 p.m. Eastern Time.

Thanks so much for joining me today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.