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Today, Angry Biden Talks to Netanyahu About Aid Workers Deaths; Federal Judge Slams Normalization of Jan. 6 While Sentencing Rioters. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired April 04, 2024 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. You are live in the CNN newsroom. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington.

Today, President Biden will hold a phone call with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. That will almost certainly be tense. A senior administration official says the president is angry and will voice his frustration over Israel's military killing of seven aid workers in Gaza this week. The founder of that organization, World Central Kitchen, Jose Andres is calling for an independent investigation and says the IDF systematically targeted his group's aid workers.

The CNN analysis of videos of the aftermath shows the attacks appear to have been multiple precision strikes outside of the conflict zone. The entire convoy, two armored cars and another truck was struck.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHEF JOSE ANDRES, FOUNDER, WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN: This was not used a bad luck situation where, oops, we dropped the bomb in the wrong place or -- no, this was over 1.5, 1.8 kilometers with a very defined humanitarian convoy that had signs in the top, in the roof, a very colorful logo that we are obviously very proud of, but that's very clear who we are and what we do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Now, let's begin our coverage over at the White House with CNN's Arlette Saenz. Arlette, by all the counts, the president is furious with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. What more can you tell us?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, President Biden is expected to convey his frustration and anger directly to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu when the two men speak in the coming hours.

Now, this phone call, sources tell CNN, was not initially on the calendar at the start of the week, but was added after that Israeli strike, which killed seven aid workers with World Central Kitchen in Gaza. That moment really prompting outrage from President Biden all the way down among his senior officials.

But one big question going forward is whether this moment could potentially serve as a turning point in U.S. military support for Israel's operation in Gaza.

Now, the president is expected to focus on the deaths of those seven workers in this call, but he's also expected to broaden things out a bit, talking about the need for protections for humanitarian aid workers. One U.S. official telling CNN that the Biden administration has already started conveying to the Israelis that they need to change the way they transmit information about where aid workers are stationed.

The president also could potentially talk about those ongoing ceasefire negotiations to get hostages out of Gaza and more humanitarian aid in, as well as concerns about that potential Israeli operation into Rafah.

Now, yesterday, ahead of this call, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin spoke with his Israeli counterpart, Yoav Gallant. A Pentagon spokesperson said that he expressed outrage, as well as stressed that this incident reinforces the concerns that the U.S. has about an operation into Rafah. The U.S. has said the Israelis need to do more to ensure that civilians are protected and evacuated if any operation is underway.

But even as we have seen this heightened and sharpened rhetoric from the administration, using that word, outrage, what we have not seen is a shift in policy at this moment. There's been no indications that the U.S. is reconsidering their support of giving Israel military aid without conditions. In fact, our colleague, Natasha Bertrand, reported this morning that the U.S. recently authorized sending more bombs to Israel to add to their arsenal.

So, there will be big questions for President Biden going forward, whether Israel will face any consequences from the U.S. in the wake of this devastating strike.

ACOSTA: All right. Arlette Saenz over at the White House, thank you very much. Keep us posted.

I want to bring in Kimberly Dozier, CNN's global affairs analyst. Kim, I guess I do want to talk about what leverage the president might have in his talks with the Israeli prime minister, but let's talk a little bit about what Chef Jose Andres is saying. And he's essentially accusing Israel of systematically targeting his group's workers. What's your sense of that?

[10:05:00]

KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: I think this is in part a reaction not only to the horror of losing them, but to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's callous this happens in war reaction with no apology yet. They are under pressure now to look at every aspect of their targeting, to defend how they do it. But it is clear from this incident that one arm of the Israeli Defense Forces didn't know what the other was doing.

One arm was communicating with that convoy on the ground, which was going through an area that Israel controlled. And those three vehicles, not only were they clearly marked, but they were a mile apart. And according to Andres, the first vehicle got hit, those people spilled out, took cover in the second vehicle, running for their lives between the two. That one came under fire. They took shelter in their third vehicle and then everyone was killed. You can only imagine the horror of that.

ACOSTA: So, it was happening over and over and over?

DOZIER: Someone was specifically targeting this convoy.

Now, what we don't know, what Chef Andres is alleging, is that whoever was targeting them knew it as World Central Kitchen. I think that's why you're starting to see leaks in the Israeli press of the potential that it is an A.I.-chosen target that a human then didn't do enough homework on before approving. So, the drone was doing its job, and somebody hadn't checked before letting this lethal force go forward.

ACOSTA: Well, this question has been floating around in my head in The New York Times and a story about it this morning, and that is the Israelis have this incredible ability to do precision strikes the way the United States does and other advanced military powers around the world. And you look at what took place in Damascus, very precision conducted strike.

And in this case, the Israelis are saying, whoops, we messed up.

DOZIER: Yes.

ACOSTA: How did -- one does not go with the other, right? In the layman's view it doesn't seem to add up.

DOZIER: It seems from this incident and others that the Israeli standards of operation allow them a wide leeway with the potential for civilian casualties. I spoke to one of the U.N. aid officials and they say, look, they've targeted three of our convoys. They have targeted our convoy three times. Luckily, they were armored vehicles, no one was killed.

But every morning, they give them the IDF GPS coordinates, how many vehicles, type of vehicles, what the vehicles are carrying, how many people are in these convoys, how many people at each of these locations, and yet, these location, these convoy have gotten hit. And 177 U.N. aid workers at last count have been killed and now the world is paying attention at last when it's foreign aid workers.

Also, I think the IDF is on the back foot and trying to defend itself because World Central Kitchen has fed Israelis since October 7th, not just Palestinians. They're seen as apolitical. They're seen as helping the situation.

ACOSTA: They are just trying to feed people, yes.

DOZIER: And an alternative to the U.N. system, which Israel doesn't trust.

So, I think Biden is going to be within his rights today to say, you know, you told us over and over behind closed doors that you were carefully avoiding civilian casualties. Now we have proof you're not. What are you going to do?

ACOSTA: Right. And what kind of leverage does the president have? I mean, there's been a lot of conversation about whether or not you should continue uninterrupted sending arms to the Israelis. There's this issue of fighter jets and so on.

Obviously, you know, the United States isn't a tough bind there because it doesn't typically use that kind of leverage with the Israelis.

DOZIER: That's going to be the tough part in that public opinion within the U.S. is probably going change and Biden is going to be facing more opposition among the Democratic Party. And yet if he chooses in any way to cut off military aid, that will enrage much of the GOP.

And this U.S. presidential election coming up is on a knife's edge. He can't afford to lose votes over Israel. And when it comes right down to it, even if he lessens military aid, Netanyahu needs to keep prosecuting Hamas in order to keep his coalition together and not trigger new elections.

So, Netanyahu is doing this for his political survival. If he gets aid lessened, he's just going to keep going full steam ahead.

ACOSTA: That's true. There's no proof. I mean, it seems at this point Netanyahu is not listening to the president and the question remains whether using that kind of leverage, cutting off military aid or even holding it up would have that any kind push on Netanyahu as well.

Kim Dozier, thank you very much.

[10:10:01]

On the heels of this deadly strike on the World Central Kitchen workers and other major aid group, Doctors Without Borders, is accusing Israel's military of repeatedly endangering aid workers, quote -- saying this, quote, this is not an isolated incident. Israel has repeatedly attacked humanitarian workers and is disregarding the protection of medical and humanitarian efforts, further obstructing aid efforts.

Joining us now is Avril Benoit, the U.S. executive director for Doctors Without Borders. Avril, thank you very much for joining us.

Maybe you can pick up on the conversation Kim Dozier and I were just having a few moments ago. I understand your group has lost five colleagues since the start of the war in October. Obviously, our hearts go out to your organization as well. How do you respond to the prime minister's comment, this happens in war? And what about what Kim was saying a few moments ago where the Israelis have some really tough questions to answer about how this convoy was taken out, the World Central Kitchen convoy?

AVRIL BENOIT, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, DOCTORS WITHOUT BORDERS/MEDECINS SANS FRONTIERES: Yes, this happens in war when you completely disrespect the Geneva Convention's international humanitarian law and good judgment. It happens in war when you are reckless, and it shouldn't.

I mean, this is the problem. Time and again, we have seen in our own experience, hospitals attacked that were full of patients. We've had colleagues shot. We've had vehicles bulldozed. We've had many instances where ambulances have been attacked, repeated assaults on independent humanitarian aid, which was there only to save lives and alleviate suffering.

So, that is why we're calling it out. This is an incident which is garnering a lot of attention, and that is good because it's an outrage. At the same time, let's look at it as a pattern of attacks on the ability of Gazans to even receive humanitarian assistance.

ACOSTA: And the Israelis have described this as a mistake. But as Kim was mentioning a few moments ago, the convoy, the World Central Kitchen convoy, those vehicles appear to have -- and this is what we know at this point. Of course, the information may change. It appears that those vehicles were taken out one after another. And as people were trying to flee from one vehicle to the next, they were getting taken out. They were getting hit.

That suggests that the Israelis either were targeting something that they thought was a Hamas target, and they just kept going, or something worse. What's your sense of it, and have your workers been in similar situations like this?

BENOIT: Yes, it always really raises a lot of questions because even in attacks on shelters where the families of my colleagues from Doctors Without Borders, where they and their families were staying and family members killed, those were notified to the authorities. The notification was acknowledged and, nonetheless, it was attacked, even though it was just filled with families, with children, et cetera.

So, it makes you wonder why we never really see independent investigations. We never really see fulsome evidence that anything like this was justified. All we see is this repetition of attacks, this repetition of disregard for civilian infrastructures, generally speaking, not to mention all the harm that's coming to the wider population that are not working for humanitarian organizations or volunteering.

So, either it's gross incompetence, which is repeated in terms of not following the norms of how you engage in a violent assault on a suspected target. Is it complete incompetence or is it willful disregard and sending a message that Gazans should not receive aid? Because that's the message we start to receive after all these months. ACOSTA: Yes, and that raises a whole load of questions as well.

I do want to ask you a little bit about how your organization, other organizations like yours try to de-conflict. Are you in contact with Israeli military contacts and say, okay, we are making a movement from this location over here to this location over there, please don't hit us, or we're going to be operating out of this shelter here, please don't hit us. Are those the kinds of conversations that occur? And do you know whether or not that message goes through when you try to send those messages out?

BENOIT: Well, we get to acknowledgement of receipt and that's about it, we don't get any promises in our case. So, I don't completely understand how World Central Kitchen has been doing it, nor the other organizations.

[10:15:03]

In our case, all I can say is we notify.

The COGAT is the entity of the Israeli government that we are asked to notify, and when we do, it's acknowledged and that's it.

Our sense from the beginning, though, has been that nowhere in Gaza is safe. Delivering aid in Gaza is not safe because nowhere is safe. And that is one of the reasons you will consistently hear from the get-go organizations around the world, both local organizations and international ones, like Doctors Without Borders, are calling for a real ceasefire, a ceasefire that is lasting so that we can really bring the assistance that people need.

ACOSTA: And just to follow up on something you were saying a few moments ago, is it your belief or is it going too far to say that you believe that the Israeli strategy at this point is to ratchet up the suffering to a point where they think that the leaders of Hamas will just come out waving the white flag, that if the suffering gets to of a magnitude, that they just can no longer tolerate that they'll come up waving a white flight, and how realistic is that?

BENOIT: Look, I can't tell you what they're thinking and what the strategy is. We hear the words and don't see them matched by action. We hear words, not only from Israeli officials, but also from U.S. officials, right up to President Biden, saying that they care about civilians. They want the harm to civilians to stop. They want humanitarian aid to flow uninhibited.

At the same time, the actions don't bear that out. You were just talking about the decision of the United States to continue to provide weapons that are attacking not only civilians, but also the humanitarian organizations.

So, it's the actions that we want to see. We want see the ceasefire, which will be visible, tangible, meaningful in order to be able to stop this suffering and the attacks that are happening.

ACOSTA: All right. Avril Benoit, thank you very much for your time. Thanks very for the work that your organization does. We really appreciate it.

BENOIT: Thank you.

ACOSTA: Still to come, it's a campaign rally call now. Longtime Republican Strategist Karl Rove is slamming Donald Trump for promising to pardon January 6th rioters. We'll tell you about that coming up in just a few moments. That's next.

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[10:20:00]

ACOSTA: A federal judge is issuing a stark warning about the consequences of playing down the January 6th Capitol attack while sentencing one rioter to more than seven years in prison. The judge blasted him for downplaying the attack, saying, quote, we cannot condone the normalization of the January 6th Capitol riot, warning of a vicious cycle that could imperil our institutions.

Let's discuss with CNN Political Commentator, Republican Strategist Shermichael Singleton and CNN Political Commentator Karen Finney.

Shermichael, what do you make of that? I mean, you have members of Congress on the Republican side calling the people in jail for what they did on January 6th, quote, hostages, the way Donald Trump does, obviously. How badly is January 6th being normalized and twisted with disinformation? Is it something that people should be worried about?

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, politically, Republicans on the Hill, including the former president, recognize that a large portion of his MAGA supporters do believe that these individuals were unfairly targeted by the justice system, not Shermichael's opinion, but it's their opinions.

And when you look at focus groups, and I know Karen loves focus groups, when you talk with some of those individuals, they'll tell you, we believe that Democrats or the justice system or the system is going against these individuals.

But I want to be clear about this. We're in the midst of a major presidential cycle. There is no way you can win by only targeting individuals that are already with you. You have to be able to convey a message to Americans in the middle. And most Americans look at January 6th and they say this was an atrocious act against our country, against a democracy. They don't want to support any individuals who stand by that.

ACOSTA: Yes. And, Karen, I mean, Karl Rove, of all folks, Fox News contributor, former deputy chief of staff to President George W. Bush, no shrinking violet himself, he has been slamming Trump's characterization of January 6th criminals as hostages.

Let's listen to Karl.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KARL ROVE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: If they were smart, they'd take the January 6th and go hard at it. And they would say, he wants to pardon these people who attacked our Capitol.

Every one of those sons of (BLEEP) who did that, we ought to find them, try them, and send them to jail.

And if one of the critical mistakes made in this campaign is that Donald Trump has now said, I'm going to pardon those people because they're hostages. No they're not. They're thugs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Ryan's looked a little nervous there, because Ryan was supposed to be the architect of the expansion of the Republican Party base, which he then put on the backburner when everyone got behind Trump.

Look, Rove is exactly right, and I think this is a hypocrisy that you're going to see Democrats pulling out time and time again. How can you say you're for law and order when you allowed and encouraged people to perpetuate violence, not just against our Capitol, but against law enforcement?

And we know people died, and we know there are men and women who are still living with PTSD from that day. And you're going to see those folks out on the campaign trail. We've heard from Michael Fanone. We see Harry Dunn, who's actually running for Congress, to remind people.

And the last thing I'll say on that, as I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with Karl Rove, Biden and our team need to continue to push that, because that was --

[10:25:02]

ACOSTA: Yes, that was a point he was making.

FINNEY: Yes. That was a real breaking point. And we've seen it across the country for a lot of Republicans. They were terrified and felt like that is too far.

ACOSTA: And there were some cheers for Karl Rove there, and, Shermichael, I wonder if those are sort of the Nikki Haley Republicans. And I know there's some Republicans who say don't call them Nikki Haley Republicans, they're just never Trump Republicans, but there's a category of the Republican Party right now, they're just deeply uncomfortable with this.

SINGLETON: Yes, uncomfortable, unsatisfied about the options. I mean, look, electoral politics is about addition, not subtraction. Former President Trump has a base. They're incredibly enthusiastic about him. They're excited about door-knocking, making phone calls. They're going to show up in November or maybe even early voting if some of them choose for their guy.

The question that I have as a strategist, Karen, you've worked on presidential campaigns, who are the voters that you can persuade to come to your side to make the difference on the mathematical margins? There's one on the margins in the battleground states in 2020. I expect that that's going to be the case this November.

But, currently, President Biden appears to have an advantage. Are Democrats somewhat not excited about what's going on in the Middle East? Of course, they are. Are people disgruntled? Of course, they are. But I think he's probably going to have an easier time turning out his folks than Republicans. If you keep talking about things that turn people off, talk about the economy, talk about immigration, talk about foreign policy, not that the election was stolen from you because most people don't agree with that.

ACOSTA: Yes. And, Karen, I do want to show this new CNN poll of polls, to Shermichael's point. Look how close this is, if we can put it up on screen. I think it's something like -- no, not that one not the Gallup poll. There's a new CNN poll of polls. It shows a dead even between Trump and Biden right now. There it is, 48 percent 48 percent Thank you guys for doing that quickly.

I'm sorry for the confusion that I've created that. But you know what, I did want to throw one more thing up on screen for you, Karen, and that is this tweet from Ben Rhodes who worked for Barack Obama, deputy national security adviser, talking about President Biden's handling of the situation.

He says, the U.S. government is still supplying 2,000-pound bombs and ammunition to support Israel's policy. Until there are substantive consequences, this outrage does nothing. Bibi obviously doesn't care what the U.S. says, it is about what the U.S. does. When the election is that close, 48 to 48, can the president afford to lose young voters Arab American voters who are furious with the way this White House is handling Israel right now in Bibi Netanyahu?

FINNEY: And, by the way, African-American voters, many of whom are either Muslim or are related to Muslim. It's part of the reason it's having such a broad impact in this country. Also, we're seeing these horrible images, what happened to World Central Kitchen, horrible. But we're seeing these images every day. The answer is no.

And Ben is right that, you know, clearly, the White House put out this precursor that Biden is coming into this whole mess (ph). Well, that's not going to be enough. We're going to need to see more action. And people are feeling like, where are you using leverage to actually get Bibi to change behavior. And I think the real question is what can be done? I mean, is it arms? Is it funds? Obviously it's not just with aid. So, look, I think we're going to have to see over the coming months.

The one thing I will tell you, though, internally with the groups that I'm working with, what we're seeing in the data is there is a conversation that can be had with these voters. You have to acknowledge the anger. They have to stop trying to push down that anger. People are angry. Let them be angry.

However, what we're seeing is voters acknowledge Trump is a bigger threat. Other issues that they care about, climate change, his rhetoric on immigration, talking about kids in cages again, and mass deportations. People have deep concerns about other parts --

ACOSTA: But they may go into the voting booth and not have that totality of all those issues that you're talking about. A lot of that -- and we have to go, I know we're out of time. But a lot of these elections, as you guys both know, almost every four years, there's some intervening event right before the election.

And if voters, in a collection of battleground states, are focused on this issue, and they're seeing the U.S. sending bombs to Israel while they're bombing aid workers, that might just be it. They might just walk in angry and say, that's it, I'm going to vote top of the ballot and vote the rest. And that could be --

FINNEY: That's absolutely something that we all have to keep an eye on and the president and his team have to keep an eye on, no question.

ACOSTA: Guys, great discussion. We'll do it again soon. Thanks a lot.

We'll be right back.

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