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CNN INTERNATIONAL: Israel Opens Aid Crossing In Northern Gaza Under U.S. Pressure; IDF: "Serious Violation" Of Protocols Led To Strike On Aid Convoy; Treasury Secretary Yellen Raises Concerns About Chinese Overcapacity" Being A Risk To The Global Economy; Earthquake Felt In New York And Surrounding Areas; 3 Days Until Solar Eclipse Crosses The U.S.; Taylor Swift Makes Forbes Billionaires List. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired April 05, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:37]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: It's 8:00 p.m. in London, 10:00 p.m. in Tel Aviv, 3:00 a.m. in Beijing, 3:00 p.m. here in Washington. I'm Jim Sciutto. Thanks so much for joining me today on CNN NEWSROOM.

And let's get right to the news.

Sunday marks six months since Hamas's brutal October 7th attack, six months of war now in Gaza. Today, the question, are we at a major inflection point in Israel's military and humanitarian strategy in this war?

President Joe Biden warned Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu at a phone call yesterday, make changes yourself or face a change in U.S. policy. Today, we're beginning to see Israel's response.

The IDF has released its preliminary investigation into the airstrikes that killed seven World Central Kitchen workers on Monday, calling those strikes a serious violation of commands. And the Israeli government is opening a crossing to increase the flow of humanitarian aid into Gaza, particularly in northern Gaza, where the hunger is most acute.

There was a lot to dive into at this critical junction and juncture in the war. We begin on the White House with CNN's Priscilla Alvarez.

Priscilla, the president made very clear demands in his phone call with Netanyahu and he made very clear and quite critical, unusually critical public statements in the wake of this. These initial Israeli steps, is the White House reading them as enough, as sufficient?

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I think it's wait and see what they end up, what the execution looks like. And also what happens thereafter. The secretary of state, Antony Blinken, said the United States is welcoming these crossings, being open. Of course, U.S. officials have been saying for some time now that land crossings needed to be opened up to get aid into Gaza, it's not enough to air drop aid into the region. But the other part of that is making sure that the Palestinians are

actually receiving that aid. That's always been a challenge. It's not just getting aid in, but making sure that it can be distributed and what we saw earlier this week is the great harm that can in occur on humanitarian aid workers who are trying to execute that mission with the deaths of the world central kitchen employees and the many humanitarian workers that were killed before them.

And in talking to aid organizations, what they have said, it, they've told me is that they have deconfliction zones. They have a process, they have been telling the IDF where they're going to be. The problem is that those areas are still being hit and so it's also not just setting up little changes to the process, tinkering it here and there, but also making sure that they're respected and that is the wait and see from the aid perspective and all of that is going to contribute to how the White House sees this as a success or not, or how they measure this.

Now, of course, Jim, when asked about what exactly the measurements are here for the White House, whether Israel is doing enough or not, they didn't say they didn't provide those details. They just said they want to change an hours and days, so it's still -- we're still in a moment where we have to see what happens in the hours and days to come for that conclusion.

SCIUTTO: Right, because it's about aid, it's also about protecting civilian lives with the president, which the president has been very critical of Israel as well. So I'm sure there'll be watching closely.

Priscilla Alvarez, thanks so much.

From - - for the view from Israel, I want to bring in CNN's Nic Robertson. He is in Jerusalem.

Nic, it's clear that the IDF was taking this seriously. Their public comments, they said it was a severe error on their part. This preliminary report into the killing came out relatively quickly. I've seen investigations by the IDF take a lot longer, but this finding quite severe mistakes on the IDF's part and now consequences for some of the officers involved.

How does the IDF explain what I believe they're describing as multiple failures here?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yeah, multiple failures, grave mistakes. They say events that happened out with the protocols of the IDF's own rules of engagement. Of course, that's a level of scrutiny no one outside the IDF has, because no one knows what their rules of engagement are.

So, absolutely, this is quick and the prime minister's office is promising more detail to come. This is just a preliminary report, but there clearly is -- there clearly are elements about this that don't go far enough to explain, the fact that there was a misinterpretation of events on the ground, a misunderstanding what was happening in the vehicles on the ground. [15:05:03]

These details the World Central Kitchen said that the IDF has showed them video to support what the IDF says was a gunman on one of the aid trucks. Let's be clear. That's an aid truck carrying aid, not one of the Suburbans that was -- the SUVs that was carrying the aid workers when they were killed and another gunman nearby. And the World Central Kitchen said the IDF showed them that video and to them it's not convincing and they don't see that and they don't think it justifies or holds up what the IDF is saying.

So I think what were hearing from the White House, that closer scrutiny is required on this is kind of where we're at today, but that's also just one part of the picture because let's not forget, while President Biden speaking to Prime Minister Netanyahu, Netanyahu has got a cabinet that's essentially right-wing.

And we've heard a member of that cabinet, Itamar Ben-Gvir today criticized the IDF for holding commanders to account, firing two, disciplining three others and also criticizing the prime minister for agreeing to open up this new humanitarian corridor to the north of Gaza. And so, it's not all in the hands of the prime minister here either. This is not black and white.

SCIUTTO: No, no question.

I mean, you have two questions really here, which, which is killing aid workers, but also attention to avoiding civilian casualties, which the U.S. president has criticized Israel for, then you have aid getting in. They are opening these crossings in addition to this investigation, what has the IDF said it will do to protect at least aid workers going forward in terms of changing their practices and have they said anything about protecting civilians?

ROBERTSON: They often talk about protecting civilians and they do that through their leaflet drops and tell them safe time. So you use certain routes, safe areas to go to. But as we've seen, those often aren't safe, people get killed on those safe routes and safe times and they get killed in a safe zone.

But specifically to this investigation, the killing of the aid workers, specific to that, the IDF has said, we didn't realize they were in registered and vehicles that we couldn't see that these were clearly marked vehicles because it was nighttime and the IDF has suggested this idea that they could use some kind of thermal strips to put on vehicles, but this sounds like a great idea and its simplest form, it is.

But then there's a practicalities, particularly for the IDF, when the IDF -- who does the IDF give those strips to -- how long are they active? Is it possible that these strips could fall into the hands of Hamas and Hamas could use them to run around and sort of had some kind of safety. And the same maybe IDF says Hamas runs around in ambulances.

So, so the IDF's suggested some ameliorating things that can happen. But they really don't bear a lot of scrutiny, Jim, you just have to say that when you look at it from the details that we've seen and the IDF has made public so far, at least.

SCIUTTO: No question. And in the words of the World Central Kitchen that they found this investigation called comfort, given the multiple failures, Nic Robertson thanks so much.

Joining me now to discuss some of the broader issues, former defense secretary and CIA director under President Obama, Leon Panetta.

Thanks so much for taking the time this afternoon.

LEON PANETTA, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: Good to be with you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: The administration's response to the strike on World Central Kitchen, certainly more marked, more public than we've seen the criticism from Washington Israel to date. But it's not the first time because clearly the president had been running out with running out of patience with the Israeli military operations there.

Based on Israel's response so far in these last days and hours, if you were advising the president, would you say this is sufficient or we need to see much more?

PANETTA: Well, you know, this war is now going on for six months and I get the impression that that both President Biden and the prime minister have been talking, but in many ways talking past each other.

That's changed now. That really has changed now as a result of what happened in these last few days and it really is going to be important for Israel to show specific steps that it is taking in order to protect these aid workers in an order to advance humanitarian aid, it sounds like they're beginning to take some of those steps. I think that's important but frankly, time will tell whether or not they're going to be able to stick to it. And also, time will tell whether or not they're willing to change their procedures here.

[15:10:00]

I mean -- look, this is the result of bad intelligence. One thing I know is when you get bad intelligence, you make terrible mistakes and there's no question here that was bad intelligence. There was no way to verify what happened here. And that kind of procedure when it comes to bombing has to change.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. And beyond bad intelligence, bad decision-making, looking at one of these aid workers who was apparently carrying a bag and mistaking that for a weapon or somehow assuming it was a weapon -- I just wonder, given the number of civilian deaths in Gaza separate from this one, strike on an aid convoy, do you see a broader problem with not just how Israel choose -- chooses specific targets at any one time, but the care it takes or frankly doesn't take to protect civilians?

PANETTA: Well, you know, in having worked with the Israelis and having worked with them in an operations -- look, when they target somebody, they target somebody. They're very good at that. When they're -- when they're targeting and assassination are going after someone, they're very good at pulling the trigger and that is true in the military as well, don't pull -- don't pull the trigger.

And sometimes, if you're going to do it and you want to make sure that you're hitting the right target. You have to be able to verify, to take time, to make sure that the information that you're getting is accurate with regards to targets. And I have to tell you that in the past, at least in my experience, the Israelis usually fire and then ask questions.

SCIUTTO: Wow. I mean, that's quite an indictment. Is it not? I mean, when you're looking at the death toll here where there are more than 13,000 children killed, it strikes me, it's a fair question to ask whether it is an intelligence issue or even a rules of engagement issue. But just to a care issue, right? Deemphasizing the civilian casualties there's no question. I mean, look, the IDF has done a quick investigation here. It's not surprising that they've said there are serious violations here serious and multiple mistakes were made that led to this disaster and the real question is going to be, what are you going to do to change the procedures for going after targets to make sure that they're verified, and that you have accurate intelligence on those targets? That's a -- that's a heavy lift, but it's going to be required.

I mean, the United States frankly you know, having gone after targets particularly with al-Qaeda, there were moments where we were getting intelligence that somebody was there but we also had intelligence that there was collateral damage. And we said no, do not fire if that collateral damage is going to happen. So they have to have some of the same procedures.

SCIUTTO: You said you don't think there's any question that the U.S. will now have to apply conditions to military aid. Do you see Biden as willing to do so?

PANETTA: Well, I think it depends on how Israel response to this situation. I mean, if Israel takes some real steps concrete steps they try to improve their procedures, to try to help aid workers, to try to make sure that humanitarian aid is provided. Then I think the United States frankly, can continue to work with Israel and continue to provide weapons.

But if in fact they don't take those steps or they take some initial steps and then go back to business as usual, then I do think that the United States has to look seriously at whether or not to condition the weapons we're providing.

SCIUTTO: Strategically for Israel, has the conduct of this war damage their security, right? They're going after Hamas as any country would do following the attacks on October 7 but they have antagonized several of their Arab partners and allies and neighbors, certainly. They've created an enormous rift between themselves and the U.S., its closest ally.

And the world is looking at this and seeing a country that the view of many is not taking care to avoid civilian casualties and they hold responsible for. I just wonder what you think the strategic damage that does to Israel's security, if you think it does.

PANETTA: Well, this is a moment in time when they have to think seriously about how they're going to approach it. I mean, because the fact is they've been badly damaged in terms of their reputation and support that is necessary for them to conduct this war.

[15:15:07]

Look, nobody questions the fact that after defend themselves. Nobody questions the fact that they have to go after those who conducted the October 7 attack and they have gone after Hamas, they've gone after them in a very direct way. And they've clearly going after some of those that were involved in October 7.

I think part of the problem here is to define ultimately what is the mission here? Where are we going? Because Netanyahu is basically said that the mission is to destroy Hamas. Well, look, nobody -- you're not going to destroy Hamas but you can go after those in the Hamas leadership that were responsible for the attack. What we did in 9/11 is we went after those involved in the 9/11 attack. We didn't go after everybody who was in an al-Qaeda.

Israel has to make that same kind of definition clear because ultimately, look, the only way this war comes to an end is when it's clear that Israel has gone after those targets, has them in sight and ultimately now is working on what steps are going to be taken once this war comes to a conclusion. That's really what Israel has to focus on.

SCIUTTO: Secretary Panetta, thanks so much for joining and sharing your experience.

PANETTA: Good to be with you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Still to come, the IDF says that it made grave mistakes in the strikes on a World Central Kitchen convoy. What protocols will they now change? I'm going to speak to a spokesperson from the IDF about the investigation and what comes next.

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SCIUTTO: Sunday will mark six months since the October 7 terror attack by Hamas on Israel.

[15:20:01]

On that day, Hamas militants killed more than 1,200 people, most of them civilians and kidnapped some 240 others. We were there on the ground and the days and weeks just after the attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: We're very close to the Lebanon border in northern Israel. And soldiers have just blocked the road here in both directions. We can go either way. You could hear mortar and artillery fire going out. That is from Israel towards Lebanon. We've also heard artillery fire coming from Lebanon. And the concern is the soldiers telling us that there are possible infiltrations across the border from Lebanon by presumably Hezbollah fighters and that's why the level of concern is so great.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: And, of course, that concern continues. Of the 130 hostages still held in Gaza, according to the prime ministers office in Israel, 34 are dead, 96 believed to be alive. The death toll among the population of Gaza has been staggering, 33,037 according to the Gaza ministry of health, we should note the ministry does not distinguish between civilians and fighters, but we should also note that more than 13,000 of that total figure are children, the majority women and children.

And the suffering extends more broadly. The U.N. estimates that 80 percent of the population of up to 1.8 million people have been displaced by the fighting. Aid groups say Gaza is now on the brink of famine. Already, at least 23 children have reportedly died of dehydration and malnutrition in northern Gaza says UNICEF.

The expanding toll of the war has created an exacerbated divisions between the Palestinians and the Israelis, between Israel and the Arab world. And now, between Israel and its closest ally, the U.S. Testifying before Congress last month, Avril Haines, the director of national intelligence, said the crisis has galvanized violence by a range of actors around the world and while it is too early to tell, it is likely that the Gaza conflict will have a generational impact on terrorism.

Joining me now is IDF spokesperson, Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner.

And, Peter, Lieutenant Colonel, thanks so much for joining given we spoke earlier this week and you said you would come back after the initial investigation was released. That's happened and you're back here. We appreciate you honoring that commitment.

LT. COL. PETER LERNER, IDF SPOKESPERSON: Of course. Great to be here, Jim.

SCIUTTO: So first of the findings, there were multiple findings in here. And what it points to is that there were multiple mistakes along the way, including mistaking a bag around the arm of one of the aid workers for a gun.

I wonder when you look at this to report as a member of the IDF, what is the biggest conclusion that you found here?

LERNER: Well, the most important thing is clearly that this shouldn't have happened. And it could have been prevented. And unfortunately, the checks and balances within the IDF system, within the mechanism failed. They failed on an organizational perspective, failed on an individual perspective. So I think what is more important is how we take this unfortunate

tragedy that cost the lives of seven innocent humanitarian workers, people that came here to do good for the people of Gaza and create, create a reality where the humanitarian effort can continue. But while that continues, we can continue to achieve our goals.

I was listening to what former Secretary Panetta was saying. I think our goals to rid us of Hamas are very clear actually. Identifying, dismantling, destroying Hamas as a governing authority and making sure that they never have the power of government again, and bringing home those 134 hostages

SCIUTTO: But let me, let me ask you because I do want to get to something that the former CIA director said before I get there, I wonder you talk about the checks and balances within the IDF rules of engagement that they didn't work. And I wonder is the intention here to change those checks and balances or improve them in any way, or say that what we have in place is good. We just have to follow it better or are you looking to introduce new measures?

LERNER: Jim, it's a mixture of both of those. The system could have worked. But clearly it needs to work better in any case, it needs to work better in the decision-making process of the individuals that have the responsibility.

When I said earlier that it could've been prevented, it was precisely because once they conducted the first strike, they could should have reassessed what happened on the ground and then considered does a struck a second strike actually needs to happen based on intelligence, based on visual intelligence, based on all of the standing of the situational awareness of what was happening. And there were very various different things that could have happened despite the fact that the forces that conducted the strike, they didn't know that the WCK vehicles -- the four vehicles that were there and the three that were later struck, they didn't know they were WCK.

[15:25:16]

They were convinced these were Hamas because they misread the intelligence that they saw and they didn't know from the coordination efforts.

So there's coordinating issues inside the military, but also together with international humanitarian organizations that need to be sorted out. But there's also a practical issues of engaging and making sure that humanitarian aid actually gets from A to B.

SCIUTTO: Right. I know you were listening to the former CIA Director Panetta there and one thing he said, based on his own experience when he was directing the CIA, by the way, is as defense secretary as well, was that in his view, there's a longer term issue and he said and I'm paraphrasing that in his experience, the IDF often shoots first and then ask questions only after.

I wonder what your responses to that criticism. LERNER: So, respectfully, I would -- I would suggest, first of all, we have to understand what are the long-term goals. If we understand that if we that generational challenge that we face, if we don't confront and rid ourselves of Hamas, we are setting a new norm, a new standard for terrorist organizations around the world. That they will understand it is okay to overrun hospitals and use them as basis of operations. That it's okay to abuse the United Nations and the protection of the symbols of the United Nations or ambulances.

So I would say, yes absolutely. We are definitely seeking to change the paradigm once and for all with regard to Hamas and the Gaza Strip specifically, a change that will be beneficial for all decent people in this region. We want to live in peace with our neighbors, but we're not willing to be sacrificed at the hands of the likes of Hamas that are wanted, want to, and have promised to come into Israel time and time again to repeat the atrocities of 7 of October.

SCIUTTO: Beyond aid workers, what will the IDF do now to help prevent further civilian casualties in the population of Gaza?

LERNER: So, first of all, we have to implement what the government has instructed us last night to make the necessary preparations to increase the flow of aid into Gaza. So we will be in the next few days opening the Erez Crossing, which is not -- you know, Erez Crossing, was ransacked and destroyed on 7 of October. So, it wasn't even suitable for passage of pedestrians, let alone humanitarian goods. So that needs to be sorted out, increasing the workload of Kerem Shalom going -- the trucks that go into Gaza, although we still maintain that the amount of produce and goods and supplies and medical supplies that were going in through Kerem Shalom because actually more going in from outside and getting stuck on the Palestinian side because of the distribution capabilities.

When we talk about the distribution capabilities and relates specifically to the World Central Kitchen catastrophe, in this respect, coordinating a better coordination of the distribution of the goods of the supplies. And with regard to the limiting civilian casualties of this war, both prime minister and I think I also mentioned the other day, the need to actually engage and go into Rafah, a very challenging reality, a very challenging operational engaging situation. We know that in Rafah, there are still four operational brigade, sorry, battalions of Hamas.

We know that hostages are there and I think also Rear Admiral Hagari also mentioned that. So we know in order to achieve our goal, we need to get rid of Hamas in Rafah, but we also know that there's a huge amount of population there and they will need to be evacuated on one place to islands of -- humanitarian islands that can also be done with the assistance of the human -- the international humanitarian organizations. They need to be part of the solution, not part of prolonging the problem.

So I would say we need to limit the civilian casualties by being very exact on what were trying to achieve, but also considering and very aware that they're all civilians on the ground in the Gaza Strip. And we need to achieve our goals while maintaining our actions to get them out of harms way.

SCIUTTO: Well, we will watch that -- those operations as they continue very closely, Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner, we appreciate you coming back on the show.

LERNER: Good evening.

SCIUTTO: Still to come this hour, more on the border crossing that Israel says as we were just discussing, then well reopen this weekend, to let in more of that desperately needed humanitarian aid. We're going to go live to Gaza to speak to an aid worker involved. That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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SCIUTTO: Welcome back.

Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen has begun her second visit to China as secretary with a warning for Beijing. She says that China's overproduction of certain goods poses a risk to the global economy.

Joining me now to discuss that and other issues in this critical relationship, Democratic congressman from Illinois, Raja Krishnamoorthi. He is ranking member of the China Select Committee.

Congressman, thanks so much for taking the time.

REP. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI (D-IL): Hey, Jim. Thanks for having me.

SCIUTTO: So, Janet Yellen, she's zeroing in on something that you hear from a lot of us business leaders as well. And that is that China has really boosted production of key industries, particularly electric vehicles, EVs, solar panels as well, and that they're just about to flood or attempt to flood the U.S. market with this.

I wonder, do you -- do you agree with this concern? And what economic risk does it pose to this country?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: I do agree and it poses a grave risk. It's the same playbook that they've used in the past, whether it was with regard to aluminum and steel or electronic goods. Now, they're doing it with EVs, solar panels and lithium ion batteries, among other things.

And the idea is this, which is they are creating all this excess capacity, these excess goods to try to create jobs within China. But what they end up doing is they export those goods and dump them on markets, meaning under the cost of production usually subsidized by the state. And in the process they drive companies out of business, their competition out of business in other markets.

And so I think it's very important that Janet Yellen make it very clear to them that any such with regard to these other green goods, so to speak, would trigger countermeasures. SCIUTTO: So I want to ask you about those countermeasures, but first,

there is a good -- there's something good about that, right? I mean, EVs would presumably bring down the cost per present more choices to American consumers, for EVs, solar panels, et cetera. I get the idea that it's undercutting the market.

But is there -- is there a way to meet a happy medium to some degree, add, I mean, for when you say countermeasures, are you talking about tariffs?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: Possibly tariffs, possibly other barriers to entry. You know, we want -- you know, we want green goods. We want our businesses though to be able to compete on a level playing field. We want green goes, but we want to keep our own industry in the green. If we don't, we're going to lose jobs, were going to lose a whole nascent, for instance, electric vehicle industry that's popping up in the United States in here in my home state of Illinois, which is now a hub for EV manufacturing.

But at the same time, Jim, we could also create a yet another source of economic coercion for the CCP, where they essentially say, look if, you don't do X, Y, or Z against your own interests, maybe with regard to Taiwan, maybe with regard to some other national security interests, we are not going to provide you with these types of green goods upon which your economy now relies. So it becomes not only an economic issue, but also national security issue.

SCIUTTO: I get it. We've certainly seen China exercise that kind of economic might country like Australia, et cetera.

You have seen something of a thaw in U.S-China relations recently. U.S. and Chinese military representatives, they met in Hawaii to discuss the safety of forces in Pacific, first in-person meeting of that kind after years of cancellations by China. Biden and Xi, they spoke earlier this week, first time since their November summit.

I wonder, do you see this as a short term thaw with China calculating it needs the U.S. to some extent with its own economy faltering or is this potentially something more lasting?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: I'd like to hope that his last name, but we can't count on it. And that's why I think that we have to continue to explain to them that their reduction and aggression, whether it's military aggression toward their neighbors or economic aggression in the form that we just talked about, such as dumping are going to trigger countermeasures where we protect our interests along with those of our friends and allies.

And if they have any hope of resurrecting their tanking economy right now, then they're going to need to reduce that aggression. And if they do so, I personally believe that's in their best long-term firm interests and for that matter, all of our collective interests.

SCIUTTO: But Biden reiterated U.S. concerns about TikTok in his call with Xi Jinping on Tuesday the Senate leader, Chuck Schumer, he is not exactly expressed a willingness to rush this through. The House passed TikTok legislation.

I just wonder, where does this bill stand in your view? And do you think its going to get passed ultimately?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: I'm cautiously optimistic. I think leader Schumer has its own process and we want to observe his process along with those of senator, Chair Cantwell as well as Chair Mark Warner and their respective committees. We've talked to several senators. They have great interests in the House bill. I believe that it's imperative that we move forward, but we're going to respect their process and the way that they go about vetting this bill in the Senate.

SCIUTTO: Turning to Israel for a moment yesterday, the White House defended a recent transfer of more than 1,000 500-pound bombs, thousand small-diameter bombs. This despite ongoing concerns about the conduct of the war in Gaza, particularly exacerbated by the strike on World Central Kitchen this week.

Do you believe the U.S. should impose conditions on any new military aid to Israel, conditions such as reducing civilian casualties?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: Well, I think definitely there's an expectation at this point that they minimize harm to civilians, allow a lot more humanitarian aid into Gaza. I personally believe that there should be an immediate halt to hostilities, of course, linked to a release of hostages. We need these things to all come together and I hope that for instance, the Qataris put tremendous pressure on Hamas, which up until this point has also balked at the outlines of a deal which is in my opinion and imperative right now.

SCIUTTO: Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi, thanks so much for joining us. We hope you have a good weekend.

[15:40:00]

KRISHANMOORTHI: You too, Jim. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Still to come, scientists at NASA are hoping to solve one of the enduring mysteries about the sun, but they need the sun to get out the data. I'm going to have a NASA astrophysicist to tell us exactly how, when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: You see there on a camera at a New Jersey coffee shop. A rare 4.8 magnitude earthquake rattling the New York City area earlier today, the epicenter of the quake was in New Jersey. But people reported feeling the shockwaves all the way up north and Boston and down even the Washington, D.C. So far, there are no reports of serious injuries or damage as a result.

Chad Myers is in our weather center in Atlanta.

Chad, can you walk us through how large this earthquake was and how widely it was felt? CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: The largest earthquake in New Jersey

since New Jersey became a state in 1787. So the third largest ever, but that was before it was even the state.

I have no idea how they measured it in 1751, but you know --

SCIUTTO: Someone fell off a horse.

MYERS: Some rocks --

SCIUTTO: Yes, someone fell off a horse, yeah.

MYERS: Exactly, exactly. So the biggest we've ever had in this area here is about a 5.1. And then that was in 1755, and also in 1783. So here we are with a 4.8 and we had a very shallow quake. And when she quakes like this happened, we had one in D.C. many years ago, maybe a decade ago, the whole ground shook like a bell. It doesn't just rattle and roll like in the West, and these quakes go for a long period of time in all directions because all of the rocks aren't broken up into different faults kind of insulating one fault from another

One hundred and sixty-five thousand people logged into the USGS and said, yes, I felt it that number is usually like 50.

[15:45:01]

So a lot of people felt this, kind of light shaky, but it was shallow. That was the jolting, you kind of felt where in California if it's a long ways away or even a deep quake, it just kind of roles a little bit more with these S, not so much of a P wave. Shaky in New York City, Philadelphia, and D.C. And the waves can go farther because of the way the rocks are formed there.

We will likely have another aftershock here, probably 3.8, or likely somewhere in that ballpark. We already had a couple of twos, but so far so good. This was a shallow quake.

To give you an idea, Jim, just about a 4.8 quake. I looked it up on the USGS. There are 35 4 to 5.0 earthquakes per day in the world, but yet here we are 200 years later after the last one, that's how rare these really are across the East Coast.

SCIUTTO: Yeah, there are a lot of people there, right, around -- those cities in the East Coast notice this. Not -- no, I was in D.C. for the one I think in 2011, I definitely felt that.

MYERS: It's '11.

SCIUTTO: Chad Myers, thanks so much.

MYERS: See you tomorrow.

SCIUTTO: So keeping in the realm of science, we just three days out from the total solar eclipse happening on Monday. But a cloudy for cast is also on the horizon with 30 million Americans in the eclipse's path of totality as its known, millions more expected to travel to that area for this phenomenon, how will clouds affect your eclipse- viewing and what does the scientific community hope to learn from this eclipse?

Here to discuss a bunch of things is NASA's eclipse program manager Kelly Korreck.

Kelly, thanks so much. You, yourself you've seen two other total solar eclipses. So I wonder why this one in particular is exciting you.

KELLY KORRECK, NASA'S ECLIPSE PROGRAM MANAGER: So, one of the things that excites me about this solar eclipse is the fact that its during a time called solar maximum. The sun goes through these 11-year cycles and at maximum, it has the most structure and it's the most dynamic.

So the other eclipses were beautiful and really a whole experience that I encourage everyone to have at least once in their lifetime. This one will look even more spectacular.

SCIUTTO: So we read in an interview that you said in the past that no war else in our solar system that we know of at least has the right size moon to block the surface of the sun entirely. I mean, that's kind of a pretty amazing remark feature of nature. Tell us the significance.

KORRECK: Right. So we just happened to have a moon that is 400 times smaller than the sun, but it's also 400 times closer than the sun. So we're able to just cover the very disc of the sun, which allows us to see that outer atmosphere of the sun or the hot corona. And we spend so much time trying to study this because that corona is where space weather originates, where all the weather from the sun that can affect our technology. It can affect our astronauts as well as our power grid.

So we really want to understand this and this eclipse gives us that special -- special opportunity to do that. And it just happens to be a peculiarity of nature that we ended up with a right-size moon at the right distance, that other planets have similar eclipses in terms of blocking out the sun completely but it out more of it, or there were just be a little chunk out of it. And that's actually how we find planets around other stars as we just see a little bit of the light from the host star are taken away.

And that's what we find other planets outside of our solar system. But there's nowhere else that we know of that gets this perfect circle to be able to see them.

SCIUTTO: Yeah, I'm going to share that fact with my kids and act like its my own and I'll give you credit.

We do know this is a big moment for NASA. So tell us what NASA is going to be doing during the eclipse. I know you're going to launch some rockets and some high-flying, high-altitude aircraft as well.

KORRECK: Right. We are taking multiple looks at the sun and our earth's reaction to that in terms of science. So were flying two WB- 57s and they will look at the sun as well as testing our atmosphere's response that I honest fear or the layer of the atmosphere where all of our communications go through, think the GPS signals as well as radio communications. We're also taking a look at on through rockets, through a series of three rockets before, during and after the eclipse, again, studying that layer of communications for our atmosphere.

We're also flying kites and having folks on the ground and citizens science -- scientists participate, using their cell phones to take images and give it -- and send that into NASA to -- for NASA data.

SCIUTTO: Oh, that's kind of cool. I've look for how to do that. Kelly Korreck, thanks so much.

KORRECK: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: When we come back, Taylor Swift is joining one of the world's most exclusive clubs, the Forbes billionaires list. Who else scored a spot among the worlds super, super wealthiest? We're going to break it all down.

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[15:52:39]

SCIUTTO: Well, that time of year for every tech bro, nepo baby, and A-list star, the 2024 Forbes billionaire list is out. It was a blockbuster year for the world's wealthiest. There are more billionaires than ever. And they're just getting the richer.

Topping the list are several familiar faces. Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos, Larry Ellison, Warren Buffett, to name a few. This year though, the list welcome some new members, including pop star Taylor Swift, the NBA legend magic Johnson and the fashion designer Christian Louboutin.

Joining me to break it all down is the Forbes wealth editor, Chase Peterson-Withorn.

Thanks so much for joining, Chase.

CHASE PETERSON-WITHORN, WEALTH EDITOR, FORBES: Yeah, thanks for having me.

SCIUTTO: So, Taylor Swift, she's new to the billionaire list. How did she get there? And do you see a lot of musicians on this list?

PETERSON-WITHORN: Yes, there's been a growing number of musicians and sort of A-listers. But basically all of them have gotten super rich off of business ventures. You know, Rihanna had Fenty. You know, Kim Kardashian has SKIMS, but -- Jimmy Buffett had Margaritaville.

But Taylor Swift has really done it in a different way. She's done it by touring, recording and sort of famously re-recording her way onto the list. So she's really the first musician to join the billionaires list, basically just off of her career as a musician. SCIUTTO: One figure that caught our eyes, that there are 14 billionaires under 30 on this list. But for the first time in 15 years, no self-made billionaires under 30. So they inherited this?

PETERSON-WITHORN: Yeah, that's right. You know, the youngest of the young on the billionaires list are all heirs this year. So, it's people who are 19, 20, 25, who have inherited big stakes and huge fortunes basically. And so a lot of the older -- a lot of the people who are sort of archetype for being young billionaires, people like Mark Zuckerberg, they're kind of getting older and, you know, they're sort of moved out of the youngest of the young category.

SCIUTTO: No question. And, I mean, global economy is still recovering, but, but -- I mean, it's like the old adage, you got money, you make more money, right? I mean, it seems like the ones that are already rich just getting richer everyday.

PETERSON-WITHORN: Yeah, with the stock market sort of where they are these days. If you have an amount of money to pay on billionaires list, it's pretty hard not to end up richer than you were a year ago.

[15:55:07]

So, there's more billionaires than ever, and they're richer than ever. Their overall billionaires are $2 trillion richer than they were a year ago. So markets are up and the market masters are up.

SCIUTTO: And a bigger chunk of, well, nations wealth as well.

Well, Chase Peterson-Withorn, thanks so much for joining.

PETERSON-WITHORN: Yeah, thanks for having me.

SCIUTTO: And thanks so much to all of you for joining me today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next. We do hope you have a great weekend.