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CNN International: Defense Cross-Examines David Pecker In Trump Trial; New Gag Order Hearing Set For Next Thursday; Fourth Day Of Testimony In Trump Hush Money Case. Aired 11a-12p ET

Aired April 26, 2024 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00]

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PAULA NEWTON, CNN HOST: Hello, and welcome. I am Paula Newton in New York, outside the courtroom where Donald Trump's criminal hush money trial is now underway.

LYNDA KINKADE, CNN HOST: And hello. I'm Lynda Kinkade in Atlanta. We have a busy hour ahead for you. I'll be bringing you the top international headlines, including the very latest on the Israel-Hamas war, and the continuing pro-Palestinian protests at various college campuses across America, that are now spreading to Europe.

NEWTON: Well, we do begin here in New York, where the defense is continuing its cross-examination of former tabloid publisher David Pecker. Now, this week, Pecker has detailed several so-called catch and kill operations, which the prosecution argues were part of a much broader effort to keep negative stories about Donald Trump under wraps during the 2016 U.S. presidential election. Remember, this was meant to influence the election. Those are the allegations.

And now, we get to Karen McDougal's allegation of an affair with Mr. Trump, and that in the last hours has been the major focus. We are still waiting for a ruling from Judge Merchan. After his -- after this week's gag order hearing, the prosecution is accusing Trump of committing four new violations, and in response, the judge said he will hold a new hearing on the allegations next Thursday.

Now, I want to alert you to what's going on, on the left hand of the screen. You can see some key updates from Donald Trump's trial. You can read along with us because, a reminder, there are no cameras allowed during these proceedings. We have many CNN reporters, though, inside the court, keeping us up to date on what's going on. Everything they see and hear will appear on that side panel.

Joining us now is Katelyn Polantz. She is live for us in Washington. We've had the cross-examination now going on for about, what, today, about almost an hour and a half. They're really going through some parts of these agreements right now that can seem a bit tedious to the jury. I mean, what do you think the defense attorney Emil Bove is getting at?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: The defense attorneys in this case have David Pecker on the stand, and as they cross-examine him, they're trying to inoculate everything he said previously that may be damaging to Donald Trump, as the prosecutors used him to set up the arc of this case, the scheme of the catch and kill tabloid journalism world, the ability and the willingness of the National Enquirer to help Donald Trump's campaign in 2016.

The defense team has been questioning David Pecker about many of the points he spoke about, the scheme with a doorman to buy a story and keep it quiet before the 2016 election, this -- the payoff, $150,000 to Karen McDougal to keep her story about an alleged affair with Trump quiet before the 2016 election, the meetings where David Pecker has testified he had interaction or saw members of the Trump campaign, his communications with Michael Cohen, Donald Trump's lawyer, who he said he understood was a key part of that campaign. All of that came out in the prosecutors' testimony.

And so, now the defense is trying to make all of that sound like typical checkbook journalism, the typical business that would have happened for many people, many sources, many celebrities, outside of the political sphere as well. They've talked about how the National Enquirer would have run negative stories about Trump's national political opponents, whether or not they were beneficial to Donald Trump, that there were regular sources and relationships that the National Enquirer had with people who became part of what the prosecutors say became this criminal conspiracy or criminal act that Donald Trump was perpetrating in 2016, that Trump went way back with the National Enquirer with Pecker himself, that attorneys for some of these women -- an attorney for these women, he also was a regular source of the National Enquirer.

And then finally, they heir highlighting, just now, a couple minutes ago, Emil Bove, the defense attorney, asked David Pecker about the story that the National Enquirer bought related to Karen McDougal, and how that came out in a different publication, The Wall Street Journal, just days before the 2016 election. Pecker did acknowledge that that happened that it was made public, this Karen McDougal allegation against Trump at that time.

Now, all of this, though, the prosecutors will have another crack at. They'll get to ask David Pecker more questions and then more witnesses.

[11:05:00]

If we get to see another witness this afternoon, remains to be seen. We don't know who is next. But, this is a case where there are many stars lined up as witnesses in the coming days in this historic trial against the former President.

NEWTON: Yeah, Katelyn. That witness list is tightly held, and they don't really give us a big heads up as to who will be next. Katelyn, before I let you go, I do want to ask you about Trump's words coming in to the courthouse this morning. He did wish his wife a happy birthday, and said he would be going to Florida to join her, to celebrate her birthday. But, he also did something that it would seem would again violate the gag order. He called the judge here, again, one of the most highly conflicted judges he has ever seen. At what point will even the prosecution say, look, this cannot continue, because right now, we're looking at a hearing on Thursday and still no ruling?

POLANTZ: Yeah. The judge has very specific reasons for having this gag order, Paula. What he wants to do and what the prosecutors have reiterated over and over again, is that Donald Trump should not be intimidating anyone. He should not be intimidating jurors on this case, and he should not be intimidating witnesses as they're on the stand or possible witnesses that could be called in the coming days. He also is not supposed to say anything that could interfere with the work of the court's staff, the district attorney's staff, the family members of the lawyers involved, the staff or the court. That doesn't necessarily include the judge himself. He can comment about the judge. He can comment about the DA that brought this case, but he can't do things that would try to infect or hurt the integrity of the process in the courtroom.

The issues that are going to be heard at this hearing next Thursday on the gag order, whether Donald Trump is in contempt of court for violating it four more times. That is about comments he has made in recent days about David Pecker, who is currently on the stand, calling him very nice. Prosecutors say that he is using his platform to signal to witnesses, he is going to be commenting publicly about what they say. And also, he has commented about the jury. That's another thing that the prosecutors want him held in contempt over. They want him to be fined multiple times. And of course, there is 10 other times he was commenting about Michael Cohen and the jury in this case, where prosecutors say he should be fined $1,000 for each of those 10 iterations that he has made in public.

NEWTON: Yeah. Katelyn, we'll see what ends up happening with some of those hearings. But again, these so-called violations may or may not continue, like you said. Even when he says something nice about the witness on the stand, the prosecution is saying that is interfering and the gag order should still apply. Katelyn Polantz, we will continue to watch the developments there in the courthouse for us. Thanks so much.

I want to bring in Attorney Bradley Moss for us now. And I do want to pick up on this issue of the gag order and perhaps what the former President's intent was coming in and calling the judge "highly conflicted". As I pointed out earlier, perhaps that doesn't, by the letter of the law, really involve the gag order itself. But, given the fact that he is trying to come in and have his influence on this case, we should point out there have been threats to judges in this country and worse than that.

Some of our legal experts have pointed out that at certain point in time the judge is going to have to make a ruling that actually means he brings order to this, to actually in some way, shape or form, bring some discipline to what the former President says and yet not really construct his First Amendment rights. I mean, what do you think the judge should be doing this time, because right now, we don't even have a hearing until Thursday? BRADLEY MOSS, NATIONAL SECURITY ATTORNEY, & PARTNER, LAW OFFICE OF MARK. S. ZAID: Yes. The judge is stuck in a bit of -- between a rock and a hard place here. If this were any other criminal defendant, commenting on witnesses, making the various remarks Donald Trump did in advance of trial about the judge's daughter, but any number of other officials outside of the judge, the district attorney himself, stuff like that, they would have been thrown and held in contempt immediately and put in prison.

Donald Trump is getting some special latitude here because he is Donald Trump, and I don't mean that as the celebrity, I mean, that as the former President, the current lead -- the current Republican nominee, possibly someone who will become President next year. So, he is getting a bunch of special latitude. And what Donald Trump has determined really quickly here, he has seen this throughout his life, he can push the boundaries more than anybody else can because of these privileges he gets.

So, what remains to be seen as we have this hearing on Thursday, will the judge just issue these financial impositions, which Donald Trump doesn't care about, or is there going to be a line that Donald Trump crosses where the judge says, enough is enough. We're going to coordinate with Secret Service. You're going to spend a couple of nights in jail. That would be hugely political in terms of the backlash, but that's where the judge is looking right now is, what do I do to keep this on track and keep the administration of justice on track?

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NEWTON: As you said, if it was anyone except for this former President, perhaps there would have been certainly, at least some kind of a fine by now, and perhaps even unlimited imprisonment.

I want to ask you about what's going on with the testimony right now, in terms of the redirection here. David Pecker, from what we can see in court from the transcripts we've seen, has been an incredibly composed witness for the prosecution, and he remains apparently very composed during this redirection. If you're the defense attorneys now for Donald Trump, you may not want to antagonize him. But, what can you do to really get to the heart of the prosecution's case? Because they laid out a very structured case with, as I say, a man who was -- seemed very certainly delivered in what he was saying and thoughtful.

MOSS: Yes. So, David Pecker was clearly well prepped by the government and by his own personal attorneys. No doubt. He understood how to testify, how not to go off on tangents. What I think the defense is trying to do in cross-examination, they've had some limited success here, is sort of dirtied up the issue, identify circumstances, other politicians that Pecker has helped sort of this idea that this is actually just standard operating procedures, as they keep saying, that he has done this for multiple people, this was nothing special. That may be well and true. He may have done this for other people. But, that's not the issue here.

The question is, did you do it for Donald Trump? Was there this criminal scheme with Michael Cohen and Donald Trump to do these catch and kill operations tied to and in support of the campaign? And then, did that lead ultimately with Stormy Daniels to Michael Cohen having to falsify business records as part of that pay off because David Pecker wasn't willing to cooperate anymore? It's laying a foundation. Defense is trying to do what it can to muddy up the waters. I think they've done some decent job. But, I don't think they really hurt the government's case.

NEWTON: And Brad, given your expertise, I want to go back to what happened in the Supreme Court yesterday, and the fact that the blanket immunity that Donald Trump is looking for, that was at issue in front of the Supreme Court. The conservative justices did ask some very pointed questions about limited immunity. How did you see all of that in terms of how the process went yesterday, and again, the questioning on the part of those justices?

MOSS: Yeah. I think what we -- a lot of us took from those oral arguments is that, by and large, the court is not going to agree with Donald Trump on his larger issue. This was, remember, just came out of a motion to throw out the indictment based on idea he had complete immunity from all these charges, for all these acts. They seem likely to say, no, you're taking that too far. Some of them, even his own lawyer, conceded in oral arguments, are purely personal acts.

What will be interesting to see based off what the ruling is, whenever it does come out is, what instructions they give for the lower courts going forward? Do they want the courts, whether the Appellate Court and D.C. circuit or the trial judge, to hash out between the lawyers with pretrial motions, a legal separation between official acts and personal acts, or do they think that's something that can be better handled in jury instructions at trial? Depending on which path the Supreme Court sort of guides the lower courts, that'll give us a sense of whether or not there is any chance that case ever makes it to trial before the election, because if it's the former, if it's this legal fight, that they will never see the light of day until 2025, at the earliest.

NEWTON: Yeah, which is certainly important for Donald Trump. And yet, I'm sure for the kinds of work that you -- that you're involved in, it is also important for future presidents. We'll have to leave it there for now. Bradley Moss, thanks so much. Really appreciate it.

Coming up, Lynda Kinkade will bring us some of the day's other top stories, including the pro-Palestinian protests spreading on college campuses right across the United States and internationally. What the students are demanding? That's just ahead. And then, Palestinian officials say they've concluded a search of mass graves at one hospital complex in Gaza. The grim findings, ahead

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KINKADE: Welcome back. Pro-Palestinian protests at college campuses across the United States showed no sign of stopping, despite hundreds of arrests so far. Campus, (VIDEO PLAYING)

That is a professor at Emory University here in Atlanta being thrown to the ground and detained. Law enforcement also used pepper spray to disperse what they call it an unruly crowd. Other schools are allowing protesters to remain in their encampments at least for now. Students' demands include a ceasefire in Gaza and divestment from companies affiliated with Israel's war. Columbia University, where these protests began, is considered the epicenter of the movement. The school says talks with protesters are ongoing and they do show progress.

Polo Sandoval is at Columbia University, and joins us now live. Good to have you with us, Polo. So, we've already seen hundreds of arrests, both students and professors. What's happening there where you are today?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hearing from Columbia, hearing from the pro-Palestinian students that are still staged in that encampment, there is a consensus at least on both sides, they do not want to see a repeat of what played out on this campus just last week when Columbia University, some of the help of the NYPD, allowing them to make their way onto campus to help them clear out an encampment and detain well over 100 people. Of course, since then, that encampment has popped up.

But, we know based on reporting from our colleague, Abby Washer, that the pro-Palestinian students participating in that encampment were told last night by the leaders of the group that so far these days- long negotiations have not provided anything that they are satisfied with, that the offerings from the university are simply falling too short based on that long list of demands, some of what you just broke down. But really, the key ones are being a divestment and also amnesty of the students and faculty that have faced disciplinary action in the past. Meanwhile, you have the university as well, what they want is the dismantling of that encampment, especially in this space that's typically repaired during this time of year for that annual graduation ceremony, a massive commencement event. So, this is what we're hearing.

Then finally, we also understand, based on what some of the students that are participating in this event are saying, that part of that negotiating conversation is a possible statement that would be released by the Columbia University, or Minouche Shafik, the president of the university, potentially addressing that events of last week when the NYPD detained those students. So, certainly a lot of moving parts. But, I think that one thing is quite certain here is that there isn't really an end in sight, at least at this moment. We will be back on campus later today since it is still restricted access. The university will permit us to once again make our way back on campus in a couple of hours. So, we will certainly see if anything has changed and if there is more progress has been made in trying to bring things to a close.

KINKADE: All right. We will continue to touch base with you throughout the day. Polo Sandoval, good to have you on the story. Thank you. Well, protests in solidarity with the Palestinian people are also

spreading overseas, including in Germany, the UK, and Australia. Police in Berlin cleared this encampment in front of the parliamentary building. Activist (inaudible) of Germany's Democracy insisting they will not remain silent as they demand a ceasefire in Gaza.

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CNN's Melissa Bell takes us to France now where students there are blockading part of a prestigious university in the heart of Paris.

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MELISSA BELL, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Student protests here in central Paris at one of -- Sciences Po, one the most prestigious universities in France's main buildings in central Paris. What set these protests of, we're hearing from the students here was a protest that was held on Wednesday in another building, and that was cleared out by the Police. What the students have said is that the police's intervention is what has galvanized at this point from the protest movement today. But, it is also a protest movement that is very much in sympathy with what's been happening on American campuses.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm seeing some friends and comrades doing this in Columbia University and all around the U.S. and now in Australia, also motivated us to continue the fight that we've been doing since October.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, we are inspired by Columbia, Harvard, Yale, UNC, Vanderbilt, all these universities that have mobilized, but our solidarity remains with the Palestinian people first and foremost.

BELL: Inside the building, they have set up tents. They've been camped out overnight, and they intend to staying there as long as it takes to get the attention of their university, very similar demand to the ones we see in the United States, the end of the war in Gaza, but also the end of any cooperation between the academic institution and any companies that might be working with Israel.

Melissa Bell, CNN, Paris.

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KINKADE: And you're looking at live pictures right now of that demonstration outside the Paris University. Those protesters have been out there in support of the Palestinians for several days now. Just a couple of days ago, police actually tried to break up a separate protest at that university site. At this stage, we know that protesters have stopped people from entering the campus. Let's just have a listen in for a moment.

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It seems they are just literally locking anyone from entering or exiting that building, as it stands. Earlier, we saw some students unveiling a Palestinian flag. We will continue the developments -- we continue to follow the developments there as they happen throughout the night.

Well, authorities in Gaza say they have finished their search of mass graves uncovered at the Nasser Hospital Complex in Khan Younis. And a warning, you're about to see a video from the site and it is disturbing. Gaza's Civil Defense says workers found nearly 400 bodies, several children amongst them. All the bodies were still draped in surgical gowns. And Civil defense officials says it appears at least 20 civilians may have been buried alive. Israel's military says any suggestion that it buried civilians in mass graves is false.

We're joined now by CNN's Jeremy Diamond in Jerusalem. And certainly a grisly finding, up to 400 bodies in that mass grave. The IDF, of course, denying any involvement. We know the EU and the UN are demanding an investigation. What more can you tell us?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, here are the details. The Gaza Civil Defense says that they located 392 bodies in three mass graves at Gaza's Nasser Hospital. They have identified 165 of those bodies so far, and they say that they were found in three separate mass graves. The Israeli military, for its part, is absolutely denying that they buried any bodies and mass graves during its time operating inside that hospital last month. They say that a mass grave was dug by Palestinians months ago, and they say any attempt to blame Israel for burying civilians in mass graves is categorically false. They had acknowledged previously that they had exhumed some of those bodies in order to test them to see if they were potentially the bodies of Israeli hostages, but they insist that they placed them back into those same graves.

But, the accounts we're hearing on the ground are very different, not only from Gaza's Civil Defense, which says that only 100 of the bodies had previously been buried there before the Israeli military began operating in that area, but the families of some of those whose body -- whose bodies were buried in January said that those bodies had been dug up and placed in a separate mass grave.

Now, Gaza's Civil Defense also showed evidence that some of these bodies were decomposed from weeks ago and some of them are the bodies of children. They include individuals who are still in surgical gowns as well as wearing hospital wristbands. Gaza's Civil Defense is also alleging that there were executions done here, saying that some of these bodies were found with gunshot wounds to the head, although we cannot independently verify those claims.

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I also want to show you the video of a father who discovered and was able to identify the body of his son, a 15-year-old boy whose decomposed body was found amid these hundreds of other bodies at Nasser Hospital, and he was able to identify his son by looking at his shirt and that was the decomposed body was found amid these hundreds of other bodies at Nasser Hospital. And he was able to identify his son by looking at his shirt, and that was the only way he could identify him because of how badly his body was decomposed.

And as you said, Lynda, now the United Nations is indeed calling for an independent investigation. They say that forensic experts need to be allowed into Gaza now to be able to examine the scene and identify any potential crimes that may have occurred here.

KINKADE: All right. Jeremy Diamond for us in Jerusalem. Good to have you on the story. Thanks for being there for us.

Well, a flotilla with humanitarian aid that was set to depart from Turkey to head to Gaza has been delayed. Organizers blaming Israel.

Our Scott McLean has the latest from Istanbul.

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SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: (voice-over): At a port in southern Turkey, this cargo ship is being loaded with aid that may well never be delivered. The ship will be part of a small flotilla soon bound for Gaza, along with this ship being tuned up in Istanbul. Neither have permission from Israel to enter the blockaded Gaza Strip.

MCLEAN: This is a passenger ferry. It's not meant to carry aid. It's meant to carry people, and there will be hundreds of them on board, mostly activists, because as much as this is about sending aid to Gaza, it is also very clearly about sending a political message.

ANN WRIGHT, FREEDOM FLOTILLA COALITION SPOKESPERSON: And if we can get our little ship in, it will be a drop in the bucket of what's needed. But, hopefully, it will put pressure on other countries to put pressure on Israel, and it could be diplomatic isolation, economic isolation, to make them stop this genocide.

MCLEAN (voice-over): Ann Wright is a former American soldier and diplomat-turned pro-Palestinian activist and was on board an ill-fated aid flotilla to Gaza in 2010.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mavi Marmara, you are approaching an area of hostilities which is under a naval blockade.

MCLEAN (voice-over): The ships were boarded by Israeli troops in international waters, and on the Mavi Marmara, carrying hundreds of international activists and journalists. Soldiers were greeted by slingshots and with bars and chairs after rappelling down onto the deck. The resistance was futile.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have one person has just been hit in the head by bullets.

WRIGHT: I was at the boat next to them, and we heard the shots hitting the Mavi Marmara, and we saw people falling. Nobody expected that. We didn't expect that the Israelis would start killing people and killing 10 of them.

MCLEAN (voice-over): Nine Turks and an American were killed. Israel initially defended the deadly raid, but then years later, apologized and paid a multi-million dollar settlement to the victims' families. One of the victims was Cengiz Songur, whose son Ismail has spent the last six months organizing this latest effort. MCLEAN: Why are you doing this again?

ISMAIL SONGUR, PRESIDENT, MAVI MARMARA ASSOCIATION: That's very simple, to break the siege of Gaza. It's not because of my father. Right now, we are standing for the children of Gaza. According to Islam, if a person is dying while going for the good mission he is becoming a Shaheed, a martyr. That's why it is not a kind of loss for us. It's kind of gain for us.

MCLEAN (voice-over): The flotilla has not been coordinated with the Israelis, nor is it attempting to use the established maritime corridor to Gaza used by the World Central Kitchen before seven of its staff were killed by Israeli strikes. Flotilla organizers say they will not allow Israel or any Western country to inspect the cargo. Israel declined to comment.

SONGUR: We are sure that Israel is not authority in the region to check our humanitarian aid. That's why it's very clear for us. We have the green lights from the international conscience to move with the flotilla.

MCLEAN: And if they block you?

SONGUR: That's the problem of Israel. We will go there. If Israel tried to block it again, same or similar scenario can happen in the Middle East.

MCLEAN (voice-over): Scott McLean, CNN, Istanbul.

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KINKADE: Well, still to come, up-to-the-minute coverage of Donald Trump's hush money trial going on right now in New York. Our Paula Newton will be back with us from outside the courthouse.

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NEWTON: Returning to our top story, Donald Trump is back in court today for his hush money criminal trial right here in New York. We are on a short break and we will get back to that testimony very soon.

Now, when they come back, David Pecker, the former publisher of the National Enquirer, will be back on the stand. This is in fact his fourth day of testimony. He is being cross-examined by defense attorney Emil Bove. Pecker has been testifying about conversations with Trump and Michael Cohen. Remember, he was Trump's lawyer along with a tabloid efforts to suppress stories that could have damaged Trump's 2016 campaign.

Meantime, we are awaiting a ruling from Judge Merchan following a gag order hearing earlier this week. Prosecutors say Trump has committed four new violations. And remember, a new hearing on those allegations is set for next Thursday.

Now, of course, Trump's trials are no doubt having a political impact on this campaign. A new CNN poll shows just 13 percent of Americans feel that Donald Trump is being treated the same as other criminal defendants. Most of the U.S. is divided on the matter, as you can imagine, with 34 percent saying he is being treated more leniently. And yes, 34 percent saying he is being treated more harshly than other defendants.

For more now, we want to go to CNN's Alayna Treene. She is in Washington for us. Alayna, right? So far so normal. The country completely divided even on that. I want to go to what many might consider the heart of this case, though, and that is the true significance of it in terms of the electorate. From what we've seen in the poll, but also what you've noted now in months of covering the Trump campaign, what do you think voters are seeing right now as we continue to follow every twist and turn here?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Well, it's really interesting. I think this poll actually reflects very much what I see when I travel all over the country with the former President and attend his rallies, as well as speak with many Democratic voters about this. They are divided. And I think a lot of people view this through their own political lens. And I think actually this trial, in particular, is one where you really see that polarization because a lot of people are less worried about this case. They're less concerned that this shows that Donald Trump could be a threat to democracy, something that they argue they see in the indictment regarding his efforts to -- his alleged efforts, I should say, to overturn the 2020 election, or the classified documents case. I hear more concerns about those two general cases.

This one, I know. When I talk to voters, they say, I'm not really sure if this was criminal. Of course, we're seeing the lawyers argue, and Donald Trump's attorneys as well defend him against those claims. So, we'll see how that shakes out. And I have to say, look, when I talked to the Trump campaign, they really don't know how this is going to play in a general election. We did see when he was indicted four times last summer that the Trump campaign received a bonus and fundraising as well as a boost in support around those. But, it's still very unclear what that will look like, now that we've entered the general election part of this. That was during the primary. This is during them trying to court more independent and moderate voters.

[11:35:00]

And so, this is something that I know the campaign is tracking very closely, but no one really knows what this will look like, especially if Donald Trump at the end of this does end up having a conviction. I know our poll went through those numbers. But, it's very unclear where Americans will stand if he ultimately is convicted in this trial, Paula.

NEWTON: Yeah. And in fact, our poll said that 56 percent said they did not believe that this would result in a fair verdict. It's interesting because that is Democrats and that is Republicans as well. Right? TREENE: Right.

NEWTON: The point is one way or the other. They don't know the results of this trial, but they think it's unfair. I don't have a lot of time. But, before I let you go, what did you make of the President actually saying happy birthday to his wife and making it clear that he was going to be with her tonight, given all the details that are being repeated in this courtroom about his personal life?

TREENE: It's not unintentional. I think they're very much -- there is -- Melania Trump and her role in some of this, or maybe not her role, I should say, but kind of her presence looms over this. This trial, out of all of them, despite Donald Trump's attorneys thinking that this is actually the weakest of the four criminal indictments he is facing, it is the most personal for Donald Trump, and it has the result of being some of the most embarrassing that he will face. I think this testimony we're hearing from David Pecker underscores that he is walking through a lot of salacious details.

And so, of course, Donald Trump wants to show that he is going to be celebrating Melania Trump's birthday. He will be spending the weekend with her at Mar-a-Lago. And we heard David Pecker say that. One of the really interesting things I took away from his testimony was he was saying, before Donald Trump was a presidential candidate, he would still catch and try to kill stories of that would embarrass Melania Trump or Ivanka Trump, family members. But then, once he became a presidential candidate, it was more about protecting him from what could hurt his campaign. And so, I think all of that is great contests, as you look at what Donald Trump is doing currently this weekend.

NEWTON: Yeah. An incredibly complicated relationship there. Alayna Treene for us. Thanks so much. Really appreciate it.

Joining us now is Caroline Polisi. She is a criminal defense attorney and lecturer at Columbia University Law School. And I thank you for joining us. You make a really interesting point that David Pecker's testimony is setting the stage for the underlying crime of election interference here, and that that's what underpins this entire case, regardless of all the salacious facts that we're listening to right now.

CAROLINE POLISI, FEDERAL AND WHITE COLLAR CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yeah, that's right, Pamela (SIC). Remember, these are 34 felony counts of falsification of business records, and the reason they're felonies, the DA is arguing, is because those falsifications were done in furtherance of concealing another crime, and it is becoming abundantly clear that their theory of the case is sort of a conspiracy to violate federal election law -- to violate federal campaign laws. And so, that's the backdrop against which the prosecution is asking David Pecker these questions.

Now that we've seen the defense get into cross-examination, we see them trying to draw out from Pecker that this practice of catch and kill was not done only in the context of being for an election. He did it for other celebrities, and indeed other political candidates. He testified about Arnold Schwarzenegger and Mark Wahlberg doing the same type of sort of checkbook journalism that we've been hearing about on the stand. So, it's all about context here. The defense would have you believe, just as you were talking about, that this was done maybe not only specifically for the election, but also to help President Trump or aspiring President Trump, keep these things from his personal life from his wife and children and things like that.

NEWTON: Caroline, as you're speaking here, we see that cross- examination is back on and David Pecker is back on the stand. He has testified that he knew this practice in terms of trying to kill these stories was a campaign finance and perhaps a legal issue. Why do you think that's significant?

POLISI: Yeah. I think that's a bombshell. Honestly, I had serious questions about the DA's theory of this case, specifically with that intent requirement. Remember, as I noted before, you need to get that intent on Trump to commit campaign finance law violations. Now, until Pecker testified, we didn't really know the extent of his really specific knowledge with respect to those violations. Remember, he entered into a non-prosecution agreement as well as a conciliation agreement with the Federal Election Commission, basically saying he wouldn't contest their theory that this practice for the payments to Karen McDougal and the doorman and such that those were actually campaign contributions, in kind, corporate campaign contributions that aren't allowed, and that were really falsified in his business records.

[11:40:00]

And so, that's the context in which this is all playing out.

NEWTON: Yeah. And before I let you go, we had -- speaking of bombshells, Harvey Weinstein, his conviction was thrown out also by New York appellate court. Four to three was the decision. It was close. How could -- what happened there? The fact that some of those judges said that extraneous prejudicial evidence was used in that trial or to convict them, how do you believe if any that could impact what's going on here, and the kind of evidence that we're listening to?

POLISI: Yeah. Really, really interesting timing on this decision, because the Harvey Weinstein case was decided, in part, at least based on these what are called molyneux witnesses, and that's other bad axe evidence that the judge allowed in. The appellate court said it actually -- it doesn't go to actually the underlying crime that prosecutors are trying to prove in this case, what's unconstitutional.

Now, here, all of this evidence that we're hearing from Pecker about Karen McDougal, about the payments for the doorman, etc., that's actually not part of the elements of the crime that the district attorney has to prove. So, those are sort of these extraneous other acts, other bad acts, sort of pattern evidence that could raise some eyebrows. Now, Judge Juan Merchan, in this case, has been very measured in what he chooses to allow and not allow. You always have to weigh in any context in a criminal case, the prejudicial versus the probative effect that the evidence is going to have on the jury. In the Weinstein case, this court is saying it was too prejudicial that extraneous evidence was too prejudicial. I think Juan Merchan here is on probably better footing.

NEWTON: OK. And again, of course, the defense team of Donald Trump will be looking very carefully at all the aspects of that case, as they are sure to appeal if in fact he is found guilty. Caroline, thanks so much. We'll leave it there for now. Appreciate it.

And that rounds up our coverage for this hour. Once again, David back on the stand now as Donald Trump's attorneys have their cross- examination. After the break, though, my colleague Lynda Kinkade will have the latest on Antony Blinken's high-stakes visit to China. Stay with CNN for all of that.

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KINKADE: Welcome back. I'm Lynda Kinkade. You're watching CNN Newsroom. Here are some of the international headlines were watching today.

And there are new U.S. inflation numbers out that could trouble investors by the Federal Reserve's preferred gauge. Inflation jumped to 2.7 percent for the year that ended in March. That's higher than economists had predicted and above February's number. Prices rose by three tenths of a percent in March alone.

[11:45:00]

More than 100 prisoners have escaped from a prison in Nigeria. It happens after heavy rainfall destroyed part of the medium security facility, according to the Nigerian Correctional Service. 10 of the prisoners have been caught. The Correctional Service says it's on top of the situation but encouraged the public to keep an eye out.

Kenya is reporting at least 70 people dead in a nationwide flooding event. The Red Cross has more than 300 rescues since the heavy rains started in March, and the government has ordered mandatory evacuations in some areas. More than 1,300 households have been displaced.

A key meeting today between the President of China and the U.S. Secretary of State. A few hours ago, Antony Blinken sat down with President Xi Jinping. The President saying the U.S. and China should be quote "partners rather than adversaries". The meeting between the two came after Blinken met with the Chinese Foreign Minister for five hours.

CNN's Kylie Atwood is traveling with Secretary Blinken, and spoke to him a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN U.S. SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: I want to ask you about a commitment that CNN has reported President Xi made to President Biden when they met in November. We reported that he told President Biden that China would not interfere in the upcoming presidential elections in the United States. But, since then, there have been reports of online Chinese accounts that have falsely mimicked Trump supporters. Do you believe that these accounts violate President Xi's commitment?

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: What I can tell you is this. President Biden was very clear about that with President Xi, and I repeated that today in my meetings.

ATWOOD: You repeated what?

BLINKEN: That any interference by China in our election is something that we're looking very carefully at, and is totally unacceptable to us. Look, it's something we're tracking very carefully. I can't speak to these specific reports. I can say that as a general matter, we've been very clear with China. Don't do it.

ATWOOD: But, they're not violating the commitment yet, as far as you can tell?

BLINKEN: Well, again, I'd have to look at the specific reports that you're referring to. But, we have seen, generally speaking, evidence of attempts to influence and arguably interfere, and we want to make sure that that's cut off as quickly as possible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KINKADE: Well, for more, Marc Stewart joins us live from Beijing. Good to see you, Marc. So, the Secretary of State certainly sent a strong message to Chinese officials about its support from Russia. The U.S. saying that it's enabling Russia to continue its brutal war in Ukraine.

MARC STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, Lynda. This relationship is among the top issues for Secretary Blinken. It's something that we anticipated he would bring up and he certainly did. China contends, if we look at the war between Russia and Ukraine, China contends it's a neutral partner, but American officials feel otherwise. They believe that China is helping Russia and its defense industry, helping it to ramp up production of things such as armored vehicles and of tanks. These concerns were once again reiterated by Secretary Blinken when he met not only with Xi Jinping, but also with Foreign Minister Wang Yi, and said that there could be additional action taken.

Already, there are sanctions levied against China. This comes at a time, Lynda, when we have seen a relationship really blossom even further between China and Russia, especially as China tries to portray itself as an alternative, a different way of viewing the world than the United States and the West.

KINKADE: And Marc, this meeting, of course, comes at a time when U.S. lawmakers are moving to ban TikTok unless it finds a new owner. What was that about that, and what are the messages you are gathering from your spot in Beijing?

STEWART: Right. The TikTok message, despite all the anticipation, was not brought up in conversations today, and it's something that China for the moment seems to be trying to avoid a discussion of. I was at the Foreign Ministry just a few days ago and asked about it, and the government official said China would not comment any further. So, we're going to have to see how things go through the court system and the legislative process.

But, other points of discussion during this meeting, Taiwan. China reiterating that Taiwan is a red line issue for China. There was discussion of some of the economic issues. China expressing concern that perhaps the United States is trying to overhype claims that China is oversaturating the market with some of its products, things like EV, solar panels, making it very difficult for other governments, other countries to compete. But, there was some issues of common ground, in particular, I'm going to point to the fentanyl, efforts to curb fentanyl production.

[11:50:00]

It's something that both the United States and China would like to tackle. And it seems like that there were some positive discussion on that front at least, Lynda.

KINKADE: That is good to hear. Marc Stewart for us in Beijing. Thanks for staying out late for us. Have a good weekend.

Well, three decades since democracy came to South Africa, its ruling party is facing some very unhappy voters. We hear from multiple generations about what's gone wrong.

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KINKADE: Welcome back. It's been nearly 30 years since Nelson Mandela made history, becoming South Africa's first democratically elected President. It was a moment of great hope for an equal and prosperous society. But, today's younger generation is struggling to see such a bright future for themselves, as our David McKinsey reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SETH MAZIBUKO, SOUTH AFRICAN LIBERATION HERO: It was actually a corner of death.

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Liberation icon Seth Mazibuko lived the painful history of this country.

MAZIBUKO: Students were coming from that direction and police were coming from direction. That morning of June 16, 1976, this was where the students who were marching peacefully. They were raising their hands and fingers of peace. They were given bullets.

MCKENZIE (voice-over): Protesting the apartheid state and its racist education system.

MAZIBUKO: I still feel guilty today that I led students and children out of the classroom to be killed. MCKENZIE (voice-over): Their sacrifice and the sacrifices of later generations helped topple the violent apartheid state, birthing a peaceful democratic South Africa, the Rainbow Nation, where everyone can vote. But, for Mazibuko, 30 years on, the rainbow has faded.

MCKENZIE: Has the leadership of this country respected the sacrifices that you made?

MAZIBUKO: Sold out.

MCKENZIE: Sold out.

MAZIBUKO: Many of the leaders that were supposed to be leading, they left this community. They left the very people that they're fighting for.

MCKENZIE: When thousands of students were bravely marching down these streets, they were fighting for a better future for South Africa. But, decades later, here is a staggering statistic. More than 80 percent of grade fours cannot read.

Has it gotten worse over the 18 years of you being at the school?

PRINCE MULWELA, TEACHER, MORRIS ISAACSON HIGH SCHOOL: Yes. It's becoming worse and worse.

MCKENZIE (voice-over): At Morris Isaacson High School, famous for its role in 1976, teachers like Prince Mulwela say that jobs in education are given to the politically connected and corruption is rife. Primary students now come to his classes unprepared, he says. Corruption watchdogs call it a silent crisis.

MULWELA: We're living in a world in South Africa where it's all about politics. Everything is being politicized. So, the education system is also being politicized. So, that is the reason why probably we're experiencing such problems.

ATLEGANG ALCOCK, STUDENT, MORRIS ISAACSON HIGH SCHOOL: I feel honored being in the school because then I get to learn about history.

MBALI MSIMANGA, STUDENT, MORRIS ISAACSON HIGH SCHOOL: Some put their lives in danger for a better future, for better education.

MCKENZIE (voice-over): I spoke to two leading students at Morris Isaacson. They are proud of their school, but acutely aware of the challenges that lie ahead.

[11:55:00]

MCKENZIE: Is there enough opportunity for young people like yourselves in this country?

ALCOCK: Right now? No.

MSIMANGA: It's going to be a struggle. Yeah, and it is scary for us to be sitting at home and doing nothing. ALCOCK: Especially when you know that you went to university for so long, and you have a degree a qualification but you're still struggling to get a job because of the unemployment rates.

MCKENZIE (voice-over): Those rates are some of the world's highest, an uncertain future despite the bitter struggles of the past.

David McKenzie, CNN, Soweto.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KINKADE: Well, thanks so much for watching this hour. I'm Lynda Kinkade in Atlanta. Stay with CNN. One World is up next.

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