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CNN INTERNATIONAL: Trump In Court For Day 8 Of Criminal Hush Money Trial; 24 Percent Of Trump Supporters Say Conviction Could Impact Support; Anti-War Campus Protests Go Global; U.S. To Send More Weapons, Equipment To Ukraine; Anti-Israel Rhetoric Ramps Up In Iran. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired April 26, 2024 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: It is 8:00 p.m. in London, 9:00 p.m. in Paris, 10:30 p.m. Tehran, 3:00 p.m. here in Washington. I'm Jim Sciutto. Thanks so much for joining me today on CNN NEWSROOM.
And let's get right to the news.
Today is day four of testimony in the People of the State of New York v. Donald J. Trump.
And moments ago, prosecution called its second witness, Rhona Graff, Donald Trump's long time assistant is now on the stand. She spent more than 30 years working for Trump, sitting outside his office on the 26th floor of Trump Tower she controlled his calendar her testimony comes after more than ten hours of questioning, cross-examination, redirect re-cross of David Pecker a longtime friend of the former president's and former executive behind the national enquirer tabloid.
CNN's Zachary Cohen has been following all the developments with us.
So, Zach, a big week of testimony from David Pecker now moving off to moving on to Rhona Graff, who worked very closely with Trump. Why is she important here?
ZACHARY COHEN, CNN REPORTER: Yeah, Jim, as you mentioned, Rhona Graff worked for the Trump organization for almost 30 years. She sat right outside of Donald Trump's office in Trump Tower. She managed his calendar and she just testified to all that again, in court. She said that she's there on pursuant a subpoena, so as she is essentially forced to be there, subpoenaed by prosecutors as their witness.
And right now, she's testifying about her role in managing Trump's contacts with the Trump Organization, and she's just told the jury that two of the contacts that she maintained for the Trump Organization were Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal. Obviously, two potential witnesses in this case, two people that we've heard a lot about, and there are at the center of the prosecutions case here that this hush money payments, these hush money payments that are paid to suppress stories, negative stories about their alleged relationships with Donald Trump, in order to prevent them from getting out and impacting his election there. She is very intimately aware of any contact that was happening between
the Trump Organization and these two women. Her testimony is ongoing.
Like you said, this comes after David Pecker, the tabloid king, just wrapped up about 10-1/2 hours of testimony, has been on the stand answering questions from both defense attorneys and prosecutors. Defense attorneys for Donald Trump had to poke holes in his credibility, undermine his credibility on the stand by noting some small inconsistencies in his story. But upon redirect, the prosecution did try to re-establish that by honing in on the key points here and the key points according to Pecker's testimony, are that his understanding was based on that 2015 meeting, in August 2015, in Trump Tower, that he was supposed to buy these stories as they came up before anybody else could buy them and publish them to prevent them from getting out and he did so to help a presidential campaign.
That's something he re-established on multiple occasions today, really again, reinforcing the core point of what the prosecutions argument is here is that these hush money payments were about helping Donald Trump's presidential campaign by preventing these negative stories from surfacing elsewhere. That includes both the Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal stories. But the difference with the Stormy Daniels or and this is where David Pecker's testimony sort of left off offers that were Stormy Daniels, David Pecker says that he did not pay for that story. He did, however, raise, highlight, alert Michael Cohen, that this story was floating out there and he did recommend that Michael Cohen should pay and buy this story, before another media outlet published it.
He actually said on the stand today that if this story got out through another media outlet, quote, the boss is going to be very, very, very angry with you. So he also reaffirmed to that this again, was all about helping and Donald Trump presidential campaign. He reinforced Michael Cohen's role in this alleged conspiracy, and he sort of set the scene for these future witnesses, including Rhona Graff, who is testifying and putting them in the context that the jury needs to know as this case moves forward, and as the prosecution continues to paint its narrative. Do we know what the intent or just watching the cross- examination from the defense, where exactly were they trying to poke holes in Peckers testimony?
One key theme of the defense attorneys questioning was trying to make the case that these hush money payments were business as usual for Pecker as the tabloid king. That this was something that was highly normal and something that he did regularly in order to further his own business interests. And that's the other thing he said. They're going to highlight the fact that these Trump stories and buying these Trump stories was good for Pecker's business. That they pointed out that there was one incident where this investigation may need it would have helped Pecker to wrap up this investigation in order to sell off the "National Enquirer" intimating that he only agreed to testify that non-prosecution agreement in order to further his own business interests.
[15:05:05] The prosecution, again, tried to rebuff that in their own line of questioning after the fact, but these inconsistencies were quite small. They're picking on little discrepancies in what Pecker said during his interviews with the FBI, and then in his testimony later on, the prosecution did for the most part, try to clear that up and reinforce the core point here, which was that Pecker's understanding is that he was to buy these stories, prevent them from coming out in order to help Trump's reelection campaign.
And when it came to Stormy Daniels under that '15 -- 2015 agreement, he brought that up to Michael Cohen and suggested that he buy it for the same reason.
SCIUTTO: Trying to establish that pattern of catching and killing stories. Zach Cohen, thanks so much.
I want to speak now to Jeff Swartz, former Florida judge, professor of law, Cooley Law School, and defense attorney Misty Marris.
Good to have you both on.
Jeff Swartz, Rhona Graff, someone who by all accounts, very close, very involved in Trump's business. Her office right outside his office there. And crucially, Pecker described sitting in Trump's office when Trump's assistant Graff walked in and gave him invoices and checks to sign.
I imagine they have her on the stand or one reason they have on the stand now is to establish -- establish that re kind of in that chain of custody of the payments.
JEFFREY SWARTZ, PROFESSOR, COOLEY LAW SCHOOL: Right. That's one of the reasons She's the keeper of the gate, and nobody gets in to see Mr. Trump. No one gets a telephone call through to Mr. Trump unless it goes through her. So she can now relate the number of telephone calls for example, that he took from Stormy Daniels or the number of phone calls he took from McDougal. She can also testify that there was an ongoing flow of people in and out of his office who had to get checks signed. She can also know what -- if the door was open, what the conversations were. She is like eyes and ears on Donald Trump when he's sitting in Trump Towers.
This is very important because it sets the stage for the later witnesses are going to come in and say, I was there, I talked about this. I saw checks being signed, all those kind of things that she now sets up for them to be able to testify to.
SCIUTTO: And, Misty Marris, to that point, Pecker also said she's the one who helped organize that 2017 Trump Pecker meeting in which they discussed this plan to catch and kill stories.
MISTY MARRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY & TRIAL ATTORNEY: Of course, because she has a lot of knowledge about the Trump Organization. She knows what was going on with Trump, both with respect to the election in his personal life and she knows the level and degree of involvement that he has with signing invoices, signing checks, having these conversations, meetings with Michael Cohen, Pecker, that meeting is so critical, and She's the one that was maintaining the calendar.
So I would say she has a dual purpose. Some of what we just spoke about would be the substantive testimony that we're going to hear the other piece of it will be putting together a timeline. Remember this is eight years ago, so she's going to verify what our business records, entries that she might have on the calendar or emails relating to these meetings in order to submit those into evidence and ultimately we build that timeline because remember, that's important to the prosecution. They say Trump was in disaster mode after the access Hollywood tape. So the way this unfolds is really central to the prosecution's case.
SCIUTTO: Misty, just speaking of the defense for a moment here, and as it regards Pecker, they were trying to establish that his actions were motivated by making money, right? Business is bottom line, not necessarily a deal to protect Trump.
From a defense lawyer's perspective, and I don't want to get your thoughts, Jeff, but do you think they hit their mark?
MARRIS: That's what they have to do. So, first, the defense throughout this trial, were going to see the theme of showing that these types of agreements, the hush money payments, NDAs, they're not illegal on their face. So we heard that by reference to other people who the --who the "National Enquirer" actually bought similar stories, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Tiger Woods. So that's one piece of it.
The other piece you raise a great point is this idea of mixed motive, that there's many reasons for these types of stories to be purchased and to be withheld or published. And that, that undermines the idea that this was solely for the purpose of the election. So that's what the defendant this is going to need to get on the record and its really going to be a common theme throughout all the witnesses.
SCIUTTO: Jeff, how do you think they did? And, of course, there was an effort following that cross-examination during the redirect where the prosecution tried to restore his credibility. I believe one of the exchanges was Pecker saying, yeah, sure. I had other catch and kill agreements, but this is the only one I had for a presidential candidate.
SWARTZ: Yeah, I've -- first of all, he's major business was buying stories to publish them. If he was doing it for some people that he was trying to kill stories. I'm sure it's because he was getting something else in return from those people. Now in this particular case, with a presidential candidate, if he becomes president of the United States, he has the ability to walk into the Oval Office, which we have seen him do.
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And that gives him a certain prestige and credibility that he wouldn't have gotten, otherwise. I think on redirect examination, the state did exactly what they needed to do. And that was returned the jury back to what was really important, not the little picayune possible inconsistencies from an FBI 302 report but getting back into this is what I did. This is why I did it. This is what I told Michael Cohen and this is what's really important for you to know.
And I think they probably did a pretty good job of doing.
SCIUTTO: We are still waiting, Jeff, for a ruling on a potential gag order against Trump. And, of course, we've had additional violations alleged by the prosecutors. Are you surprised by how long its taken the judge to decide on this? Or is this to be expected? By the way, he's got, you know, busy days in courts -- in court with these witnesses testifying.
SWARTZ: Normally, if you're going to find someone in contempt, you move fairly quickly to do it. The problem is right now that Mr. Trump is a gift that keeps on giving. That is that he will not stop.
SCIUTTO: Right.
SWARTZ: And every day before he comes to court and every day afterwards, he's adding more and more instances on that now have to go into this order because its been brought to the attention of the court by the state. I think the fact that he's waiting until after a day off, that is next Thursday to be able to rule on all of this is probably just giving him some breathing room.
I still think its going to be delivered in open court and I still think its going to be Judge Merchan trying to take control over his courtroom and making sure that Mr. Trump acknowledges that.
SCIUTTO: Misty, do you -- do you see the same there? Do you think he has good rule that Trump has violated the order hold of and contempt?
MARRIS: I definitely think he's going to rule at least that isn't contempt on some of what the prosecution has brought to the attention of the court. And I really think that's the reason why were seeing a delay because the judge is going to go through each and every one of those alleged violations and make an independent assessment about whether or not they violate the gag order. And that's because of just the unprecedented nature of this case, balancing that First Amendment right and the its a little limited gag orders, so it does have some carve-outs of what Trump can say. And ultimately make that determination.
But when I was listening to that hearing and I heard him admonish the defense attorneys. I said it's not going to be a great day for the defense on this side. I think there's likely to be some violations all right.
SCIUTTO: All right. Thanks so much. Misty Marris, Jeff Swartz, we appreciate it. We know we'll come back to you.
So are voters watching Trump on trial, do they think he'll get a fair verdict in this case? CNN has its first poll out measuring how the electorate is looking at this major moment at the intersection of criminal justice system and the presidential election. With me now to break it down, CNN's Jeff Zeleny.
So, Jeff, we're just getting into the arguments of this trial now and several of the key witnesses. I wonder how are voters looking at the process here and the charges.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, we are getting our first look and as you said, it is just a snapshot. Of course, the trial is just getting underway. There's witness testimony right now from Donald Trump's longtime assistant.
But this poll that we have conducted gives a sense of going into this, how the public looks at this, and take a look at these numbers. Where Trump's -- Mr. Trump's actions related to the business records were they illegal or illegal even split perhaps not surprisingly, given the divide in the country, but not wrong at all, 12 percent, not sure, 21 percent.
So certainly that number at the end of this trial, that's what well have our eye on here, but certainly an interesting even split going in to this trial, if this was against the law or not at all, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Well, it's actually there if you add up the -- they think it was illegal and unethical, it's still two-thirds of respondents --
ZELENY: Right.
SCIUTTO: -- who saw something wrong in Trump's -- in Trump's activities, their actions going back to 2016, 2017.
Tell us what else we found about just the overall impact of, for instance, a potential conviction in this case.
ZELENY: I think this is the most important finding, and again, we do not know what the outcome of this will be. But going into this, when you asked his supporters, are they worried about a conviction and could it impact their support? Seventy-six percent of respondents say they'll support him regardless. But that 24 percent number might reconsider their support. That is a certainly an interesting finding, a quarter of all supporters say they could reconsider their support.
The question, of course, is for whom? A deeper subset of this shows that eight in ten of those respondents said they would not support Joe Biden's. So that's certainly opens the door to a third party candidate here. Would some of Donald Trump's supporters now decide to go third party?
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Again, it's not hypothetical. This is just an early snapshot, but very interesting, not all of his supporters would stick with him should there be a conviction in this case.
SCIUTTO: And we did see in the primaries and even since Nikki Haley dropped out, there is a portion of Republican voters that either say they prefer another candidate or wouldn't vote for him. Of course, it all depends on how they actually vote.
Jeff Zeleny, thanks so much.
ZELENY: You bet.
SCIUTTO: And we will bring you updates on what's happening inside that trial as it continues. You could follow on our screen here as well.
And when we come back, America's college campus protests go global. I students around the world now stand in solidarity. We'll be in Paris next.
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SCIUTTO: Those campus protests here in the U.S. have now gone global. Students around the world from Australia to Europe joining the movement. A major university in Paris was strong ties to Columbia in New York is now seeing its third day of protests as dozens of students blockade the main campus building.
Our Melissa Bell is in Paris.
And, Melissa, I wonder how the police in universities are responding, because as you know, here in the U.S., on some campuses, we've seen quite an aggressive response from authorities.
MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, actually, Jim, there was a similar dynamic here in Paris on Wednesday night. The students here at Sciences Po, which is one of the most prestigious universities in France had held a demonstration in another campus building. They were at some point cleared out by the police and that's really what's got a lot of the anger here today.
Now, because you can just see behind me the police have come in and they're telling the protesters to move on. This is another building that they've been occupying since last night. The police have been coming in much greater numbers of the course last few hours and saying, urging these students to move on, telling them either there'll be arrested if they don't go.
For now though, that's sitting in front of the building, but also the occupation inside continues, Jim, and I think what's remarkable is how similar so many of the demands of these students are.
[15:20:02]
They say they're adding, acting out of inspiration from what's happening on American universities in solidarity with Palestinians and essentially calling both for end to the war in Gaza, but also for their own academic establishment to boycott any companies still doing business with Israel.
And this is something that you're seeing spreading in other European countries as well in Germany, the United Kingdom as well this Friday. We've seen protests inspired by what's happening over the U.S., Jim. SCIUTTO: Melissa, not only have we seen clashes between protesters and police. We've also seen clashes of protesters on protesters, right, the pro-Palestinian with pro-Israeli protesters. And I wonder if you're seeing any of that conflict there as well.
BELL: That's exactly what happened here a short while ago. There was a large group of pro-Israeli protesters who come down the street and they were facing off for sometime the police and that's when they're presence got greater keeping them aside. In the end, the pro-Israeli protesters had to be fairly forcefully moved away.
They've now been dealt with, they've dispersed. But what is left are the pro-Palestinian students who say they're going to continue camping out here, Jim, until their university gives them what they're asking for.
Melissa Bell, good to have you there. Thanks so much.
Well, here in the U.S., throughout the week, we've been bringing new scenes from those anti-war protests, continued to spread so many different campuses and sometimes seems like this as well.
Yesterday at Emory University in Atlanta, two professors, police arrested two professors there. One throwing one to the ground, two officers on a female professor. Her name is Carolyn Fohlin, she tried to help a student who was pinned to the ground by four police officers.
Today, authorities charged her with disorderly conduct and simple battery against a police officer. Remarkable to watch that.
The University of Southern California has canceled its commencement ceremony after police arrested nearly 100 protesters earlier this week.
Polo Sandoval joins us now from Columbia University in New York, where negotiations still ongoing between students leading those protests, including that encampment behind you and with university officials.
So where do those talks stand, any progress?
POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Just a few moments ago, Jim, before coming to us, we actually heard from the official voices of this pro- Palestinian sit-in movement here in Columbia University. And it was clear after you hearing from them that these negotiations that are seven days in, to use their word, have reached a stalemate. So there's going to be big question about what will come next when negotiations come into -- continuing to the weekend. What is almost pretty much guaranteed at least for the rest of today, and perhaps the next few days is this encampment will still remain here.
Now there is still that long list of demands that we've heard from students, of course, what they described as the primary objective right now is divestment, and also amnesty for some of the students and the faculty who have faced some consequences, the academic consequences for their involvement in some of this demonstrations. In terms of an objective for the university, theirs is to dismantle the space. You see the whole goal is to prepare this massive space for commencement ceremony that's scheduled for the next couple of weeks.
But in order for that to happen, as we heard from the students a short while ago, they need to find common ground at this point, but at least his based on what we just heard from some of the student leaders here, that seems unlikely for now.
Now, back to what you and I discussed about yesterday, which there was reported some not only the students, but also university reported some progress that was made in those negotiations, that happened on at least two fronts according to one of the two negotiators that I just heard from a short while ago, that is on finance -- the issue of financial disclosure. Basically, the students want to find out exactly where the university is investing their money especially with companies associated with Israel. And then secondly, on the issue, or at least the an item that's on the negotiation table, which is for potential statement from the president of the university, specifically addressing the events of last week.
As you recall, that's when the university of reached out to the NYPD and ask for the agency's assistance for helping clearing out an encampment just like this one, only to have it pop back up. So here we are again, Jim, to seven days into these negotiations. Unclear if they will continue into the weekend, but we do know for sure is at least at this point, that forward momentum, if there was any, at any point which we believe there was based on what we heard, it seems that that has slowed.
SCIUTTO: Based on the protesters and organizers you've met, can you describe who's making up the inhabitants of the encampment, encampment there?
SANDOVAL: Yeah and as I told a little bit about that, I'll have Steve Makolef (ph) behind the cameras, give you a view of what we have here. Now, we're told that this has mainly students.
When you are joining us right now in that, in that two-hour window when the, when the university working with the school of journalism allows credential press. So you'll see a few reporters and journalists from the crowd.
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But these are supposed to be mainly students. And I say suppose two because this is still a restricted campus since last weeks event, meaning only students with their ID, faculty, perhaps parents are allowed here.
Now, I did hear something interesting in the last hour from one of the organizers, which is that they did not believe that the encampment has grown, at least not significantly. So at least that can it gives you a better idea of where things stand right now in terms of the size, it is still contained to this space. You see the flags that we've seen up for the last several days, the tents, certainly. But after being here ready for several days, it is pretty clear that it hasn't -- the encampment isn't -- hasn't grown but its also clear that its not going anywhere anytime soon, unless the university reaches out to the authorities.
SCIUTTO: We'll see if there's any progress. Polo Sandoval of Columbia, thanks so much.
Well, some good news out of Buckingham Palace. King Charles III will resume public duties next week, two months after the palace announced he was undergoing treatment for cancer. On Tuesday, he and his wife, Queen Camila, will greet cancer patients and specialists at a treatment center, understood to be separate from where the king himself actually received care.
King Charles' schedule is expected to pick up in the coming weeks as Britain prepares to mark the one year anniversary of the monarch's coronation on May 6. And there he is, looking pretty good.
When we come back, with tensions running high between Israel and Iran. CNN is now inside Iran, a special report from the Islamic Republic is next.
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SCIUTTO: Welcome back.
Ukraine's effort to repel Russia's ongoing invasion is set to get another boost.
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Today, the Pentagon announced a new $6 billion aid package for Ukraine involving money for air defense systems, counter drone capabilities, also long-range artillery, ammunition, all of which they were running short on.
CNN's Oren Liebermann is at the Pentagon.
So, Oren, just a little explainer here for a moment because you had these supplemental signed by the president after those long delays on the Hill, $61 billion. Explain how this fits in as compared to that aid?
OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: So this comes from a part of that aid, but this is the Ukraine security assistance initiative. This is not equipment and weapons that will go to Ukraine immediately. Instead, this is equipment that the U.S. will purchase newly from weapons manufacturers and will then, when its ready send it to Ukraine. The idea is not to get this to them right now, instead, it is to provide them with months, if not some years, of equipment, because it takes time for some of this to be made, that it takes time to ship it over.
So this is more of a medium or long-term solution to what the U.S. sees will be Ukraine's ammunition and air defense needs this is unlike the billion-dollar package announced earlier this week for $1 billion, that is called drawdown authority, that comes straight from U.S. stocks and is already on its way to the Ukrainian forces who desperately need it right now.
SCIUTTO: And just briefly, what is the central goal of this aid? Is it to allow, for instance, a new Ukrainian counteroffensive? Or is it mostly for them to simply hold the line?
LIEBERMANN: Right now, it looks like what we're -- from what we're being told in the equipment were being looked at, it is mostly defensive in nature, air defense munitions, counter drone munitions as well. So all of that is defensive, but certainly that's not it. They're also being provided with long range ATACMS. Those are long- range precision guided missiles with a range of nearly 200 miles of those are clearly offensive systems.
Still it has been so long since the U.S. has been able to provide a major package that I think, Jim, you have to look at this as sort of filling the gaps in right now before the U.S. can step beyond that.
SCIUTTO: Oren Liebermann at the Pentagon, thanks so much.
So now to the Middle East where tensions between Iran and Israel remain high following those missile and drone strikes inside both countries, will that lead to more conflict between the two nations or attacks?
Our Fred Pleitgen is the only western journalist now inside Iran. He joins me from Tehran.
Fred, I wonder how Iranians are reacting to this moment of tension with Israel?
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I think a lot of concern here among a lot of Iranians, Jim, that all of this could spiral into a wider conflict and certainly an ongoing conflict. Nevertheless, on the ground here, especially from hard liners, you do feel some pretty tough rhetoric and a pretty tough stance especially towards Israel, but of course, also the United States.
Here's what we witnessed today.
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PLEITGEN (voice-over): Iran's hardliners flexing their muscles, screaming "death to America" and "death to Israel" at Tehran's main Friday prayers.
The staunchly conservative prayer leader saying the Islamic republic will not back down.
Iran has warned it will take an even harder line towards the U.S. and towards Israel in the future, saying that if Israel attacks Iran or its assets one more time, the Iranians will strike back from their own territory.
Tensions in the Middle East remain at a boiling point after Iran launched a massive drone and missile attack against Israel in retaliation for the bombing of its embassy compound in Syria, killing several top Revolutionary Guard commanders.
Israel, the U.S., and other allies managed to take down most of the Iranian drones and missiles. But Israel then hitting back with a limited strike against an airfield in central Iran. The hardliners flying massive Palestinian flags, ripping into Israel's operation in Gaza and the U.S.'s support for Israel. The message here, Iran is ready for a confrontation.
That, in fact, we are even happy about this, this man says. We are praying day and night for a second and third attack.
And he says, we've had these threats for a long time, but the difference is now the people are strong. The IRGC is strong and the army is strong. And we have strong tools.
And this cleric says, if the Islamic Republic of Iran will have more conflicts in the future, it doesn't mean we are warmongering. We're just reacting to the bullies.
But on the streets of Tehran, concern that current tensions could escalate and even turn into war.
I believe the situation will get worse, this man says, as both sides are more combative, In my opinion, it will lead to war and the calamity for people.
This woman says, we are definitely concern, worried but what can we ordinary people do about it.
Iran's leadership says its military is ready for combat even as they say war is not in their interest.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
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PLEITGEN (on camera): So there you can see, Jim, some of the concern here on the ground in Tehran, of course, also happening in other cities in Iran as well, but also some of that really tough rhetoric, especially coming from the government, but also from the hardliners that we for instance, saw there at those Friday prayers.
Now, all this comes, of course, as the Islamic Republic of Iran has said that there has indeed been a strategic shift on their part where they say that if Israel attacks even their assets in the Middle East, they will strike back hard. Now, of course, we know that the two sides have been able to walk back from the brink when you had that big altercation about a week and a half ago.
Nevertheless, you do feel on the ground here that there is a great deal of tension and the belief that things could get a lot worse if things continue on the trajectory that were currently seeing. Of course, a lot of that also has to do with Israel's ongoing operation in Gaza, and the big criticism that you hear about that here in Iran, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Yeah. And well, now the possibility of invasion of Rafah in Gaza as well.
Fred Pleitgen in Tehran, thanks so much.
After this break, what exactly is happening inside Trump's trial with no TV cameras allowed inside the courtroom? We'll speak to it but veterans sketch artist about capturing history.
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SCIUTTO: Hello.
Back to our top story, the testimony continues in the criminal trial of Donald Trump.
Our Zach Cohen following it day by day, hour by hour.
What's the questioning been like of Rhona Graff, Trump's former, I guess, current assistant?
COHEN: Yeah. Rhona Graff making clear that she was there, not voluntarily. She's under subpoena and she was answering questions from prosecutors about a variety of exhibits, including emails, including the calendar, both of which she said that she maintained while working for Donald Trump at the Trump Organization.
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As he said, she worked there for over 30 years and that she sat right outside of Donald Trump's office at Trump Tower during that time. So she's likely been privy to a lot of different documents and also a lot of different documents and also a lot of different conversations that were happening in an around on Trump's office around this time.
And look, she confirmed also that Donald Trump was, according to a calendar entry that was entered into evidence that Donald Trump was working at Trump Tower in January 2017? Obviously, that's around the time of that David Pecker says that he met with Donald Trump to discuss the alleged payment to Stormy Daniels.
She also confirmed that she was the one who would handle communications and there were several emails between her for n Trump's assistant at the White House during this time, she was sort of the main liaison because she testified that Donald Trump didn't use email.
So, she was really a witness there that the prosecution was using to establish and introduce documentary evidence, but also to establish her credibility by walking the jury through her role at the Trump Organization.
Now, defense attorneys tried to also establish that she was a friendly witness, that she worked with him and didn't have any animosity toward Donald Trump, but there was no reason to think that she was there to burst her own selfish reasons. In fact, that they got her to say that she was there not voluntarily.
They also raise questions about why Rhona Graff would have testified that she seems to recall Stormy Daniels being at Trump Tower sometime before Trump ran for election.
This was something that Rhona Graff said that she assumed Stormy Daniels was visiting Trump Tower because she was interviewing to be a participant on "The Apprentice". This was to clarify something that she had brought up during the prosecutions questioning.
So she's off the stand now, and another witness has begun testifying about to see how that plays out.
SCIUTTO: That's right, Gary Farro, who worked for First Republic Bank for 15 years.
Do you do you know what Gary Farro's role is in the prosecutor's case?
COHEN: It looks like he will probably speak to bank records. You have to think that he would probably speak to the transaction allegedly that was made between understood. Trump Organization and Stormy Daniels.
SCIUTTO: Understood. Central, of course, to their overall case. Zach Cohen, thanks so much.
I want to bring back Jeff Swartz, former Florida judge.
Tell us, Jeff, how the prosecutors case is proceeding here with each of these witnesses. Where do we stand now in your view?
SWARTZ: They're actually stage setters for the most part or introduction of bank records that they want from the bank instead of getting them from -- as a result of the subpoena and/or search warrant to get them out of the Trump Organization.
They want to see all the checks flowing back and forth. I think part of it may be to show that certain types of checks were signed by Trump whenever they had to be signed. And I think that that's part of what they're going to try to do with this next witness.
As it relates to the assistant, obviously, she is supposed to be setting the stage for the fact that she was the gatekeeper. She's the one that kept everybody, let everybody in, took all the phone calls, took things into Trump, was aware of his whereabouts where he was going, and what he was doing, probably at all times day and night.
So as a result of which, it just sort of sets the stage for someone like Michael Cohen or even Pecker.
SCIUTTO: So, Pecker is already been on the stand number of days establishing what prosecutors say was the pattern here, paid to kill stories that would have damaged Trump and therefore, hurt him in the campaign. Now, now you do a little chain of custody here. You've got his assistant who brought the checks and he signed -- you've got a banker. What are the remaining holes then four, for instance, a Michael Cohen or perhaps even a Stormy Daniels to fill?
SWARTZ: Well, I think that they\re going to try to put together some more of the payment records and then after they do that, they're going to start looking at travel records that they're -- they've obtained probably relating to things that Michael Cohen did, probably taking a look at his phone records and getting those introduced, probably trying to get whatever other records they can including Donald Trump's cellular phone records, and doing things like that to set it all up for the timeline that now Michael will introduce.
And then when he introduces all of those things, and it goes through them, they now give him credibility for the things that he's alleging.
SCIUTTO: All right. Jeff Swartz, here we go. They're building the case sometimes takes time.
Well, another story from the court, at the start of each day, in court, a handful of photographers are able to snap a few images of Donald Trump as a criminal defendant. But once proceedings get underway, no more cameras, no video inside the courtroom either. Our only visuals come from familiar courtroom sketches like this one, which capture for us the pageantry of the arguments, the mood of the judge, the demeanor of witnesses, and more.
[15:45:07]
For a look at this unique and essential aspect of court reporting, I'm joined now by veteran sketch artist Art Lein.
Art, thanks so much for joining us.
ART LEIN, COURTROOM SKETCH ARTIST: Thanks for having me.
SCIUTTO: So, first, I want to ask you about the craft itself. Is this purely meant to convey reality? Or is art as well? Because when I look at these images and I have for years, they strike me to some degree as works of art.
LEIN: Well, the main point is telling the story and I think telling the story as objectively as we can. It doesn't mean that I'm drawing exactly what I see, but, you know, it helps if I can work with a reporter and have the script and the visuals kind of match.
SCIUTTO: You've had the chance to, of course, the sketch Donald Trump, one time in this, in this case, and were going to throw that particular image up on the screen tell us about sketching him in particular.
LEIN: Well, the only time I sketched him, he was far away was the Supreme Court during Justice Gorsuch's investiture ceremony in 2017. And, you know, he came in at the last moment, and sat down with Melania and it was over pretty quick. So he was very far away, on the other side of the courtroom.
SCIUTTO: It used to be that each news outlet would have its own court artists, sketch artist inside. Now, there's typically a pool artist in the case of this trial, there are actually three artists in the room. What's it like when you're sketching, not just for one outlet, but really four in some cases for everyone. LEIN: See, that I wouldn't know. I kind of unusual and then I always worked for one outlet. I've been under contract with NBC for 40-some years. In the days when I started, everybody -- each news organization had itself an artist and there would be like maybe six of us. I started right after Watergate and it was a bit different now. You've tend to have pool artists and they're working for several outlets.
SCIUTTO: Yeah. I wonder though again, as we show another image here and you see the colors, the materials here, even the expression on Donald Trump's face and the one were showing here -- I mean, they could be just straight up sketches, right? I mean, there could be just straight up sketches it's almost like a criminal sketch artist, right, where you're trying to create a -- create an image that folks can then recognize.
But these deliberately have color, bold color. They have the hair when you look at Donald Trump's hair in this one, there's a swoosh and the hair almost looks like a wave, the expressions in the faces, the shadows. That strikes me as deliberate, right, to the style, right? Because it doesn't have to be that way. It strikes me that there is some -- there is some art to it as well.
LEIN: I think you're right and each artist has their own palette and their own choice. So, yeah, up and I thought maybe it would be a little more objective if we just were in black and white and certainly make our job easier.
SCIUTTO: True. Well, these ones are more interesting to look at. I'll say that and it's good to hear how you put them together.
Art Lein, thanks so much for joining us.
LEIN: You're welcome.
SCIUTTO: And still to come this hour, what do you do when a giraffe has a stiff neck? Well, you call a chiropractor, of course. We're going to have the very tall tale coming up next.
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[15:51:41]
SCIUTTO: Before we go, I wanted to bring you a tall tale that's gone viral on social media, a 16-foot tall tale to be exact. "The Washington Post" first reported the story of how Joren Whitley received a call from a giraffe owner who said their giraffe Jerry was chewing oddly.
Joren is a chiropractor who helps both people and animals. So he drove two hours to a ranch in Ardmore, Oklahoma, to lend a hand. Whitley recorded TikToks of him working on his patient. Videos have collectively gained some 50 million views and Joren joins us now.
I got to tell you. I'm trying to picture you do your job there because I seen chiropractors at work, if I had a stiff neck, right, you'd be manipulating the vertebrae and so on. How did you manage that on animal 16 feet tall?
JOREN WHITLEY, HUMAN AND ANIMAL CHIROPRACTOR: Luckily, they had a second story and so were able to do most of what were trying to do in this neck off the second story ledge. So it was actually pretty easy. I just glad didn't have to bring a ladder.
SCIUTTO: Did -- I mean, did the giraffe respond? Because you're like holding its neck, right? I'm going to have to think like did it know you were there to help.
WHITLEY: Yes. So, normally, whenever I work on a horse, we get these little tells like that were actually helping the shoes, who changes in like their eyes dilation or how their ears are moving. With a giraffe it was more just I had to go off of what he -- like how he responded to me. So, like he wanted to nuzzling deeper with each adjustment. So I was like, okay, were not irritating him and he's -- I mean, he responded really, really well to it.
So I make the adjustment and you can see he just kind of enjoyed it, and then he -- it's like he wanted more.
SCIUTTO: Yeah, it looks like he's a dog who wants a pet. You know, it reminds a little bit of my dog.
WHITLEY: Exactly.
SCIUTTO: Now, if I have this right and I don't know why I knew this trivia, but I did check to be sure. Giraffes and humans have the same number of cervical vertebrae. Does that mean that that other than size your work is kind of similar? The adjustments are similar?
WHITLEY: It kind of. I would relate it to a really big horse. So, we have the same number of cervical vertebra, so it's like, you know, in that aspect, it's the same. But height-wise -- I mean, each one of our vertebra, this big and theirs are this big. So --
SCIUTTO: Right.
WHITLEY: There's a lot more force that has to be used. The range of motion I have to get each vertebra into before I'm able to make the adjustment completely changes, and there's also a little bit of a safety factor working on human. I don't have to worry about them swing in their head around and hitting me or something of that nature. So --
SCIUTTO: Yeah, I mean, listen, it's a big animal. I mean, as much as she looks like she is -- she or -- he or she?
WHITLEY: A he.
SCIUTTO: He. Much as it looks like he's enjoying it there, you know, they got a lot of power, I guess. Most obvious question is, did it work? Did you what was it? Was it just the neck was out of place a little bit?
WHITLEY: Yes. So basically he just had a little bit of jaw tension. It was restricting jaw range of motion to one side. So I forced the adjustment or forced it but put motion back into the jaw. It moved back in the direction it was supposed to go into. And that allowed the joint to move through its normal range of motion. And then I was able to get into its neck and work because that tension from his job was actually causing tension off into his neck as well.
And, yeah, I mean, ultimately, owner was happy with it. He seemed really happy with it. And it seemed like he wanted more and we'll be back again soon, hopefully.
[15:55:00]
SCIUTTO: I was just going to say you might have trouble not going back based on the giraffe's reactions as we're -- as we're watching there. I mean, do you -- I mean, if I were to go to the chiropractor, I imagine, you might say you've got to come back for a couple of visits to make sure this holds. I mean, are you going to -- are you going to be back there for a follow-up?
WHITLEY: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Hopefully soon. With giraffes, again, there's a whole another safety aspect of things. So we have to do things and according to when they are doing certain things with their animals, training or whatnot to be able to work on them safely, but yes.
So the joints, depending on how long its been irritated, we could have to work on it a few times before it continues to move through that range of motion. So, yeah.
SCIUTTO: Well, good luck with your big job. It kind of looks like fun actually.
WHITLEY: Yes, sir.
SCIUTTO: Joren Whitley, thanks so much.
WHITLEY: I love my job. Thank you.
SCIUTTO: Thanks so much to all of you for joining me today. I'm Jim Sciutto.
"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next. Please do have a great weekend.
