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Pro-Palestinian Protests Spread To College Campuses Across U.S.; Nearly 2M Under Serious Tornado Threat; Biden Prepares For Election-Year Correspondents' Dinner; "How It Happened, Titanic Parts 1 And 2" Airs Tomorrow at 9PM ET/PT; Justices Seems Skeptical Trump Has Absolute Immunity But May Not Greenlight Quick Trial In January 6 Case. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired April 27, 2024 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[17:01:21]

JESSICA DEAN, CNN ANCHOR: You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

Hi, everyone. I'm Jessica Dean in Washington.

High tensions and more arrests today at college campuses across the country as protests against the war in Gaza spread at major universities.

In Indiana, state police in riot gear carrying shields and batons were seen clashing with IU Bloomington students at an encampment there on campus. Police say they arrested at least 23 people after they ignored six verbal warnings to remove the encampment and leave the area.

The university said it quote, "encourages and respects free speech including the right to peacefully protest". But added that school members are expected to follow university policy and state law.

In Boston school officials at Northeastern University say campus operations have quote, "returned to normal" after police detained about 100 people there this morning.

Demonstrators across the country want their schools to stand against what they believe are acts of genocide being committed against the Palestinian people in Gaza. But some Jewish students worry that the protests are becoming anti-Semitic, leading to harassment and they fear for their safety on campus.

We are covering this from college campuses all across the country. CNN's Polo Sandoval is live outside Columbia University in New York epicenter of these protests.

Polo, let's go first to you. And what you're seeing today.

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jessica, if there's any sign that they don't expect any major demonstration just off the Columbia campus, it's the loud sounds of police barricades being cleared out of the area here as they don't expect anything major on the sidewalks. Similar to what we saw play out in the last several days. In fact, some tempers rising a couple of days ago here on the sidewalk off- campus.

On the campus and I ended up visit there just a couple of -- just a few moments ago. It is very quiet. The encampment continues. And I had an opportunity to hear from some for the organizers just yesterday and they do say that those negotiations that are about seven days in or so between pro-Palestinian student protesters and Columbia University are at an impasse, at least for now.

That is because they cannot seem to find any common ground in what is the main priority demand for these students that have set up that encampment for about a week and a half now, which is divestment from companies associated with or at least with some Israeli connections.

They have, however, seen some progress on at least two other fronts. That is in transparency in terms of the investments that the university is making and also in terms of trying to convince the university to issue a statement possibly from the president of the university addressing the incident from last week when they when they asked the NYPD to step onto campus and to help clear out an encampment that we all know simply came back up which now has triggered other universities throughout the country.

The student organizers, they have not received any assurances from the university that they will not once again turn to the NYPD, though they say that they are prepared for that should that happen.

But I have to tell you after spending again a couple of hours on campus a few moments ago, Jessica, there was no sign that that is imminent. But there is certainly some uncertainty on campus because you do have campus workers preparing for commencement in a couple of weeks' time. And you hear from some of those students, especially those who are not actively involved in these protests were wondering if their commencement will move forward, which again thus far there doesn't seem to be indication that that will change.

DEAN: All right. Polo Sandoval for us in New York City.

Let's go now to Rafael Romo, who's live outside Emory University in Atlanta. And that's a different scene there today. What are you seeing?

[17:04:52]

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jessica, very different. Especially if you compare it to what happened here on Thursday, the situation here at Emory university has been calm so far this weekend. But that doesn't mean repercussions about the violent arrest on Thursday are over.

We took a look earlier at the university quad and it was empty but you can still see messages written with chalk on sidewalks saying things like "Long Live Palestine", and "Ceasefire Now".

After clashes with police resulted in multiple arrests on Thursday, including at least one Emory University professor, there were protests once again here Friday. But they were more peaceful.

Now also Friday, Emory tenured faculty gathered on campus to express concerns about Thursday's violent arrests and the fact there were three police agencies here on campus. They were discussing a motion for a no-confidence vote of Emory University president Gregory Fenves that will take place next week.

Earlier today, I had an opportunity to talk to Martin Berg, he's a third-year law student graduating in three weeks who was arrested on Thursday and released Friday afternoon. He told us even inside of DeKalb County jail, the conversation continued to focus on the situation in Gaza.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN BERG, COLUMBIA STUDENT, ARRESTED DURING PROTEST: That's why we were there and that's what we talked about when we were in jail. When we were there sitting and talking about why we were there, talking about if we regretted it. None of us did.

We talked about how the people who are dying in Gaza right now, the tens of thousands of men, women, mothers, fathers, and children are being displaced.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROMO: And Jessica, Emory University president, Fenves said in a statement that some of those participating in the protests were highly-organized outside protestors who arrived on campus in vans to construct an encampment.

That was a position Berg said he strongly disagreed with. In the same statement, Fenves also said the following. And here I quote, "As Emory community members continued to express themselves and protest, we are committed to working with students and faculty, open expression of servers and the EPD to facilitate their peaceful expression. However, we will not tolerate vandalism, violence, or any attempt to disrupt our campus through the construction of encampments.

Jessica, as you can see, very different positions about what happened here. Now, back to you.

DEAN: All right. Rafael Romo for us there at Emory University.

Let's go west now to Camila Bernal, who's in Los Angeles outside of the University of Southern California. And Camila, they have canceled their main stage commencement around all of this. What are you hearing today.

CAMILA BERNAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

So I'm actually at UCLA. But at USC, the commencement ceremony has been canceled for safety reasons. Of course, this week, things got violent, people got arrested, and now they have said that they're going to continue to try to figure out what other events they can have for the graduating class of 2024, which I'll remind you, did not have a graduation in 2020 when they were graduating from high school.

Now, here at UCLA, things are peaceful, but you are seeing the encampment, you know. There is a large portion of the university that is currently full of tents and a lot of the students here say that they're not going to leave. It's very similar demands that we were hearing from my colleague Polo in New York.

It is divestment. It is students who say they want disclosure of where the money in the university is going to and they say they're going to continue to be here in this encampment for as long as it takes.

Now, I also want to say that even though they say they will continue to be here, they're also saying they're going to be peaceful.

We do not know exactly how long they want to be here, but they say that they're going to continue despite even tomorrow having counter protesters here.

That's what scheduled at UCLA tomorrow. And so again, as of now, things have remained peaceful, but there are some people outside of the encampment that I wouldn't always describe as peaceful. But for the most part, things have remained calm.

I want you to listen to what one of the grad students here had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARIA SALEM, UCLA STUDENT: We have a lot of demands.

First and foremost, we are here also to make Palestine unavoidable. We -- no business as usual, we cannot continue every day when there's a genocide happening in Gaza. And so we're here to also show that. We need to keep continuing to talk about it.

It's not about our encampment or us as a college or university, it's about them always.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERNAL: Now, here at UCLA, we have not seen any arrests. The university policy is that they are not going to call police officers unless they feel that the safety of the students is endangered.

So what you're seeing now is just security guards that are walking around and riding around in bicycles to try to keep the peace and to try to make sure that everyone is safe in this area.

[17:09:45]

BERNAL: But again, no one has been arrested here at UCLA and they say that anyone that wants to go inside has to sign up to go inside of the encampment. And they have to agree to some of the rules including not engaging with counter protesters.

So we'll see how things develop throughout the day and especially tomorrow as that counter-protest is expected here. But as of now, things have been peaceful, Jessica.

DEAN: All right. Camila Bernal for us. Thanks so much for that reporting.

And joining us now is president and CEO of the Jewish campus organization Hillel, Adam Lehman. Adam, thanks so much for being here with us. We appreciate it.

There are fears that these protests are spreading anti-Semitism and we know that some Jewish students have said they feel unsafe on their own campus.

We also know that there are some Jewish groups at some of these schools that are calling for a ceasefire in Gaza. What are you hearing from the students you're talking to?

ADAM LEHMAN, PRESIDENT/CEO, HILLEL: Yes, thank you, Jessica. I was with a group of Columbia students just yesterday and every single one of them expressed fear for their safety and it's not based on theoretical concern. We've had students who've been stabbed in the eye with a Palestinian flag at Yale. We have had students who have been pushed, who have been hit, who have been shoved in connection with these protests.

And the language of the protests while sometimes peaceful, is often not peaceful, its often expressed in terms of the violent elimination of the state of Israel, in terms of removing all Zionists from those campuses and a Zionist from where we stand at Hillel is someone who believes in the right of self-determination for the Jewish people in our ancestral homelands.

So if you're a Jewish student who is hearing threats to Zionists or kill the Zionists as a Columbia student recorded on his own Instagram account, or you're seeing students who are being physically assaulted or followed back to their dorm rooms.

Of course, they're concerned. And I should point out that since October 7, we've recorded more than 1,400 instances of hate speech, of assault, of vandalism. So the campus climate is boiling and it really is creating an intolerable situation for so many Jewish students.

DEAN: And so how do you think these schools should proceed? How can they make sure they're balancing? All voices being heard in the sense that if you are peacefully protesting, that you're not incorporating hate speech, that that is allowed to happen, but also protecting the safety of these Jewish students who say they don't -- they don't feel safe right now.

LEHMAN: Yes. And it's really about protecting all students because when these protests or encampments spin out of control, that's disruptive for the entire campus community. So in terms of how universities can and should approach it, we're big fans of free speech. Our whole tradition at Hillel and in Judaism promotes dialogue.

What we need is for universities to reassert control over their campuses. That means they've all tried to implement what are known as time, place, and manner restrictions so that there are spaces and time for protest and protesters frankly, under principles of free speech can effectively say what they want to say however, irrational or sometimes aggressive, it can be.

But the protesters in this moment are running roughshod over the basic rules that have been provided for all students from whatever background and in doing so, they have to face consequences.

So that means we really do believe to promote safety, universities need to eliminate encampments when they are creating safety risk.

Number two, students who are so clearly and brazenly violating rules and policies should be suspended or expelled if they continue to do so in a way that threatens other students.

And finally, we need universities to reinvest in educating students and promoting dialogue. In sitting with students at Columbia yesterday, they are eager to talk about differences. They are eager to support Palestinian well-being as well as the well-being of Israelis.

But often, people should know that when they go to these encampments or when they go to students who are theoretically there to support Palestinian rights, there's a policy of anti-normalization. These protesters won't even talk to many Jewish students because they are treating -- they're dehumanizing them and demonizing them just by virtue of their Jewish identity and belief in the right of the state of Israel to exist.

DEAN: how much of a sense do you get -- you mentioned some of the things that have been said, comments about being anti-Zionist about education? and do some of these protesters that are saying things that begin to spill over into anti-Semitism in those cases?

Again, some peaceful protesters and we've seen other instances where it's not as peaceful but in those cases where they're using that language, do you think they understand what they're really saying there?

[17:14:47]

LEHMAN: Yes. Very sadly I do. Again, I'll just reference my meeting with Columbia students yesterday. They pointed out at these schools, these are bright young people who are getting access to top tier education.

Sadly, they're literally reading out of a playbook from Hezbollah, Hamas, and Iran. The chants are coming from National Students for Justice in Palestine and it is not sadly just about supporting the well-being of humanitarian aid in Gaza. In fact, there have been -- there's almost no active warfare being conducted there.

The playbook for Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah, is all about the violent elimination of the state of Israel. So sadly, I think a lot of these students do know what they're saying and doing. And that's why it can feel so threatening and anti-Semitic to Jewish students who, as part of their core identity do feel affinity to the state of Israel and do believe in its right to exist.

DEAN: Adam Lehman, thanks so much for joining us. We appreciate it.

LEHMAN: Thank you.

DEAN: Close to 2 million Americans are hunkering down for potentially dangerous tornadoes as powerful tornadoes tear through the middle part of the country, flattening homes, tossing debris all across towns.

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DEAN: Tonight, we're monitoring dangerous and powerful storms threatening much of the Central Plains. From Michigan to Texas, millions are facing the threat of tornadoes, strong winds, and softball-sized hail with rare warnings of multiple tornadoes and excessive rain in Oklahoma and Texas.

In Omaha, Nebraska destructive tornadoes, gutted homes on Friday. Look at that -- just leveling entire neighborhoods. In the Elkhorn neighborhood one resident reacted to this incredible devastation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We got home as fast as we could. I got my babies in the basement. We covered up with a blanket. We got (INAUDIBLE) dark down there.

All of a sudden the lights went out and we heard everything being thrown around above us. It was so scary. It was so scary. Other places, scared (ph) our neighbors. Everybody, everyone's houses are -- they're gone.

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: Nebraska's governor just finished touring his state's hardest hit areas and he had this to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JIM PILLEN (R-NE): I just came from a couple of the locations of ground zero in let me tell you, it's extraordinarily sobering. You know, when you think too close, it's an emotional experience to take it in.

We just met with a family that had moved in from out-of-state Kentucky, lived in her home six months. They're trying to do something today, but most likely its 100 percent total loss.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: In nearby Iowa, roughly 120 homes and businesses were damaged in the small town of Minden. On the outskirts of Lincoln, Nebraska multiple cars of a train derailed after being hit by a tornado. Miraculously, there were no deaths reported from Friday's storms. But here's the thing. It's not over yet. And tonight the National

Weather Service has not just a tornado threat, but a rare threat because of just how powerful the tornadoes could be.

Let's bring in meteorologist Elisa Raffa. And Elisa, please explain exactly what these threats are over the next 24 hours and what makes them rare?

ELISA RAFFA, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Yes, we're calling it a "particularly dangerous situation", that is the term from the National Weather Service. We've got plenty of tornado watches in effect from southern Iowa to parts of northern Missouri, part of Kansas, Oklahoma, and then into Texas.

But I want to show you the watch in particular for Oklahoma, parts of Oklahoma and Texas. This is where we have that particular dangerous situation because it's not just say, there are tornadoes possible type of watch, this is a strong tornadoes are possible.

We're looking at EF-3, EF-4 type tornadoes are possible. So it is a heightened threat just because the storms are just -- can be explosive, really just so powerful.

And we've seen that already multiple tornado warnings, one just downside Oklahoma City for storm that has some twist to it. We've had some observed tornadoes on the ground just north of Stillwater, Oklahoma passing into Kansas there. They're just south and east of Wichita. Then another cluster of storms has been pretty potent just north worth of St. Joseph, Missouri about to head towards the Iowa border there.

So a lot of different areas that we've been watching where these storms are twisting and turning.

And there have been a few tornadoes already on the ground. We've seen some video from storm chasers, but really just spending (ph) a lot of the Central Plains here.

Now, here's that continued risk. It's a level four out of five that moderate, severe risk for strong tornadoes damaging winds of 75 miles per hour and very large hail to the size of tennis balls.

This again, is the area that has that particularly dangerous situation from Oklahoma back down into Texas, including places like Oklahoma City and Tulsa that we have to watch very closely, not just for tornadoes, but for tornadoes on the order of Ef-3 or stronger.

That would cause severe damage pretty similar to what we saw yesterday in Nebraska. We're talking winds in excess of 130 miles per hour in tornadoes like that. So just something that we need to watch incredibly closely.

[17:24:42]

Raffa: On top of this to make this more complicated, a couple of the tornado warnings that we've had, where tornadoes have been observed, it's hard to see because they're rain wrapped. We have excessive rain coming down with these storms as well. There's that high excessive rain risk that's very rare.

So when we issued 4 percent of the time and it is the cause of 40 percent of our storm-related deaths and 80 percent of our flood- related damage as well.

So again, this can make matters worse because we're looking at some rain wrap tornadoes, meaning it can be hard to see because its pouring rain.

So the storms do continue to fire up as we go through the evening. It could organize into a line and push eastward then that line flourishes again with daytime heat and humidity tomorrow across a lot of the same area from Missouri down into Arkansas, even parts of Texas again, we have another severe risk for tomorrow for the threat of a few tornadoes and damaging winds, Jessica.

DEAN: All right.

Hoping everyone stays safe in all of that. Elisa Rafah, thanks so much for walking us through it.

It is a rare chance for celebrities, D.C. officials and journalists to mingle under the same roof. Ahead, what we can expect from the White House Correspondents' Dinner as President Biden looks to show off his comedic chops.

[17:25:50]

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[17:30:14]

DEAN: Today, President Biden is getting ready for the White House Correspondents' Dinner tonight.

With the election a little more than six months away, the event's a bigger political occasion this year for President Biden. It gives more urgency to striking the right tone with a number of issues, foreign and domestic, currently facing his administration.

Larry Sabota is the director for the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia. And he joins us live now.

Larry great to see you. Thanks so much for being here.

We're used to seeing presidents make some jokes, likely at their own expense. How are you expecting the president to approach tonight?

LARRY SABATO, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR POLITICS, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: I would expect him to show great vigor of the way he did in the State of the Union address so that the press doesn't write anymore "Biden is too old" stories tomorrow.

But beyond that, it's a great opportunity, it's a great forum for a president to send all kinds of messages, not just comedic, but also serious. And apparently. the president wants to do that with respect to the decline of democracy and press freedoms around the world/

This is a worldwide trend. It isn't just happening in the United States.

DEAN: Right. And the Biden campaign, kind of just going on with his appearances lately, they're branching out a little bit with respect to his media appearance.

He's going on Howard Stern first, for example, something maybe Hillary Clinton would refuse to do in 2016. What do you make of his team's media strategy so far?

Because we can hear some groaning for sure inside the beltway that he's going outside of the beltway in a way to really connect and do interviews.

SABATO: Jessica, it's a long campaign. And I would think that he will be giving interviews to virtually all major news organizations. Who knows, maybe even "The New York Times." Despite all the -- all the nastiness there.

But, you know, he's got a long time to go. I think it's perfectly ok. In fact, it's advisable for him to reach out to organizations, news organizations that reach different parts of the electorate.

Because whether we like it or not, there is no common media conversation in the United States anymore. People get their news in lots of different ways, from lots of different organizations and outlets.

And you have to find a way to reach people where they are and where they're listening and watching.

DEAN: It's so splintered now. You're right, it's hard to reach everyone in one place.

I also want to ask you about the idea that were going to see President Biden and President Trump debate.

It seemed like maybe we wouldn't. We live in a world as you just kind of alluded to where so many of the political norms are just gone. But this week they both said they do want to debate one another.

Do you think will see that it come to fruition?

SABATO: It's the right thing to say in April or May. But actually putting it together, in particularly, with Donald Trump is one of the two candidates, you know, I'm torn about it.

I've always favored debates. I've studied every minute of the Kennedy- Nixon debates, about 100 times each. And of course, that elected John F. Kennedy, I don't think there's any question about it.

But then we went to three cycles, 1964, 1968, 1972 without any presidential debates because the incumbents or front runners didn't want to elevate their challengers.

Well, it's a little different in this case. It's really more a way for a Biden, perhaps, to limit the lies that may well be told by Donald Trump. And he's done it many times.

And he didn't debate a single time in the Republican primaries. He had some substantial opposition. They were good people running against him. No debates at all. And he also canceled one of the debates in 2020 with Joe Biden.

So I think Biden has plenty of justification for saying no. if he does. And maybe it's in his interest to debate and that will probably determine whether he does. Trump's going to jump for it, Jessica.

(CROSSTALK)

SABATO: There's no question. He needs that. And he has -- there's no safety belt on him. He can say and do anything. And as we all know, there are no consequences.

DEAN: Yes, it will be interesting to see how that unfolds.

Larrys Sabato, it's always great to hear - hear your thoughts. We really appreciate it.

SABATO: Thank you, Jessica.

DEAN: Beyond the guest of honor, the White House Correspondents' Dinner is always a big red carpet event here in the nation's capital as well.

And CNN's Harry Enten is joining us now on the red carpet.

Harry, you got any friends there yet?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: You know, it's -- I would say it's the 1980s strike back. Just before I got here, Andrew McCarthy, of course, was in all those brat pack films, was on the red carpet.

[17:35:04]

Standing to my right now, in fact, is Molly Ringwald. I don't know if I should tell her that I had a major crush on her in "Pretty in Pink."

So the fact is, at this particular point, yes, things are just getting going a little bit. But with Molly Ringwald off to my right, I feel like it's -- it's going to be a hot evening. That's all I can say about that.

DEAN: A hot evening. It's just beginning. So we're going to see you. Next time we check in with you, there's going to be far more people behind you.

What -- what's the kind of vibe there? What are people expecting to hear from the president tonight? ENTEN: Yes, look, I think the president, like most presidents who come out, is going to crack a few jokes. Obviously, he's going to crack a few jokes about Donald Trump. Obviously, the fact that, right now, he's on trial in New York.

I know from the reporting that his team has been whipping up some good jokes. They spent about four hours over the past few days whipping up some jokes.

So, look, I think it's going to be a funny time. President Biden last year was able to gin up some laughs. So I don't expect it to be any different this year.

Of course, the real question is, is this going to be the last time he's laughing as president with the election coming November? We'll just have to wait and see on that one.

DEAN: Absolutely. And of course, before I let you go, you're a numbers guy. And you have always looked -- you look at all the numbers.

Does history suggest that a speech at a Correspondents' Dinner can actually do anything substantial, move polls in any way?

ENTEN: You know, I was looking at the questions that were said to me before this segment. I saw that one. Whoever wrote that up is quite clever. It made me laugh.

No, there's no example that at the White House Correspondents' Dinner speeches there can make a difference. Most folks aren't watching it.

Folks who are watching it are nerds, like you and me, Jessica. But I think it's still going to be a fun time either, can't move the poles.

But at the end of the day, we're going to wait and say, because history is always history. It's not always predictive of the future. And maybe this year will be the year in which the jokes told at this White House Correspondents' Dinner actually do move the policy on that one -- Jesica?

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: Yes, while we will wait and see. I mean, you do think back to when Barack Obama was taunting Donald Trump, it didn't move a poll, but it did maybe shift history a little bit.

Harry Enten, we will check back in with you. Good to see you.

ENTEN: Nice to see you.

DEAN: Former President Trump spending all week in court for his hush money trial, but he still faces three other cases. Ahead, the looming decision from the Supreme Court that could push those other cases until after the election.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

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[17:40:24]

DEAN: We look tonight at two hostages captured on October 7th. A new video released by Hamas today showing American-Israeli Keith Siegel. In the video, Siegel appears to be speaking under duress as he pleads with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to negotiate a hostage release deal.

CNN has been unable to verify where or when the video was shot. But in the video, the Israeli citizen, Omri Meuron (ph), says he's been held hostage for 202 days, which suggests it was filmed on Thursday.

Evacuations have been ordered following a train derailment and New Mexico with its border with Arizona. Thirty-five cars of that train derailed Friday, quickly catching fire.

At least six of the cars were carrying propane. The evacuation orders for people living within a two-mile radius of that crash site. It's not yet clear what caused the derailment, but an investigation is ongoing.

Britain's King Charles will return to public duties next week following treatment for cancer. According to Buckingham Palace, the 75-year-old monarch will be joined by his wife, Queen Consort Camilla, as they tour a cancer treatment facility.

The palace says the facility is not the same one where he or his daughter-in-law, the princess of Wales, Catherine, is receiving treatment. Despite returning to his duties, there has been no update on the king

or Princess Kate's health.

And there's always more to the story beneath the surface, beyond the headlines. CNN's original series, "HOW IT REALLY HAPPENED" returns tomorrow night. The special two-hour premiere, hosted by Jesse l. Martin, is revisiting the sinking of the Titanic.

Here is a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The two lookouts on duty at the time in the crow's nest, were Frederick Pleat and Reginald Bley (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was what the lookouts described as a slight haze all around the horizon. That's called a refraction haze. And that delayed the sighting of the iceberg.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They didn't see the iceberg until they were just practically right upon it. It kind of rose up out of the ocean.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The lookouts described it as a dark mass that came through that haze/

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And they realized it was an iceberg and ring the warning bell.

(BELL RINGING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three rings on the bell for an obstacle directly ahead, and then telephoned the bridge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He called down and said, iceberg dead ahead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: CNN's original series, "HOW IT REALLY HAPPENED," a special two- hour premiere on the Titanic, airs tomorrow night at 9:00 P.M. Eastern and Pacific.

[17:44:43]

We'll have more CNN NEWSROOM when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DEAN: The special counsel investigation into former President Donald Trump could be in jeopardy. The Supreme Court appears poised to delay the election subversion trial even further after hearing arguments on whether presidents have total unity while in office.

Trump and his team argue, yes, presidents do. And they argue that's why he should not face any charges in this federal criminal case against him.

Much of Wednesday's arguments focused on the difference between official acts conducted by a president versus private ones.

(BEGIN AUDIO FEED)

[17:49:59]

SONIA SOTOMAYER, U.S. SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: If the president decides that his rival is a corrupt person and he orders the military or orders someone to assassinate him, is that within his official acts that for which he can get immunity?

JOHN SAUER, ATTORNEY FOR FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP: It would depend on the hypothetical that we can see that could well be an official act.

ELANA KAGAN, U.S. SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: If a president sells nuclear secrets to a foreign adversary, is that immune?

SAUER: That sounds like similar to the bribery example, likely not immune. Now, if it's structured as an official act, you would have to be impeached and convicted.

(END AUDIO FEED)

DEAN: Here to discuss this further, is law professor at Loyola Law School, Jessica Levinson. She's also the host of the podcast, "Passing Judgment." Jessica, great to have you on. Thanks so much for being with us.

Just, first off, what do you make of this week's arguments at the Supreme Court? We listened to a few of them there.

JESSICA LEVINSON, LAWS PROFESSOR, LOYOLA LAW SCHOOL: Well, it was absolutely fascinating. For almost three hours, you heard the justices really struggled with where to put this line when it comes to presidential immunity from criminal prosecution.

And while I think you did see division genes in the court, I heard some agreement that basically neither side was going to win completely, that there would not be a finding of absolute immunity from criminal prosecution for official acts, which is what Trump's team wants.

And there probably would be a middle ground, meaning not exactly what Special counsel Smith wants.

I heard them really searching. I think you're exactly right to highlight those quotes that talk about the line between official acts and private acts. I heard them really searching, trying to figure out, well, how do we draw that line?

DEAN: So how difficult is that -- that question of what constitution an official act? And if it gets tossed to a lower court and decide, how much of a delay could we expect in this special counsel case?

LEVINSON: So I guess I'll answer the last part first, which is I don't think this case is going to trial before the election. I think that's what everybody is asking and it's very unlikely.

In part, because - it gets to the first part of the question, which is that I think the court is likely to lay out a new standard for how we determine when an act is an official act and entitled to immunity and when an act is a private act and it's not entitled to any immunity.

That could then go back to the trial court judge. Judge Chutkan. And she would have to apply that standard to the facts at issue in the complaint in the case pending before the former president.

And then, the party who doesn't like her ruling, they could then go back up to the D.C. circuit court of appeals.

I mean, we could talk about what exactly that ruling might look like. I do think it's a complicated issue for the court. And they're trying to figure out what exactly falls within that bucket of official acts.

But I think what everybody is asking is, how long will it take? And the answer is, I think it is extremely unlikely we would see a trial before November.

DEAN: Yes. And Michael Dreeben, an attorney for the Justice Department, noted to the justices, that another way to frame this argument is to ask whether the rule of law applies to the president.

Do you think that's a fair way to frame this case?

LEVINSON: Well, I certainly think it is a favorable frame to him. What he's trying to get at is to say, shouldn't it be that we look back to our basic principle that no person is above the law, that the rule of law applies equally to all of us?

AND I think that is compelling. But the truth is that there is Supreme Court precedent that says, in the civil context, that we do treat presidents differently.

Now, we've never been here. We've never had an answer for the criminal context. But I think, while that broad statement is really appealing, what the Supreme Courts really doing is going one step below that and saying, but there is actually something different in their view about the president.

And they're trying to craft a decision that balances the rule of law, while also balancing respect for executive duties.

And frankly, what you've heard a lot is the fear that if they say that there is no immunity, then criminal prosecutions could be used as a weapon against future presidents and future ex-presidents.

DEAN: And Trump's attorney, John Sauer, acknowledged that some of the alleged conduct supporting the criminal charges against the former president or private. When he was asked about Trump's phone call to the Georgia secretary of state, Brad Raffensperger, he said that was private.

In doing so, did he give any credence to Jack Smith's case here or -- and I think a broader question too is, are they just trying to delay this case as long as possible?

LEVINSON: Well, let's be clear. I think the answers that last part is, yes, they are trying to delay this case as long as possible, not just this case, of course, all the other cases pending against the foreign president. And they've won that.

I mean, we're talking about Supreme Court arguments at the end of April. We're not going to see a decision likely until the end of June. And as we said, we don't think that we're going to have this trial.

[17:54:59:]

So in this case, whatever happens with respect to the immunity standard, it's a win for the former president.

Now, in terms of that concession of, yes, we understand John Sauer saying there are private acts here, I think that's really just an acknowledgment of what Judge Chutkan, the trial court judge, had already said.

And frankly, what we can all see, which is not everything that forms the basis of this indictment can possibly be seen as an official act.

DEAN: Yes. All right, Professor Jessica Levinson, thanks so much for your insight there. We appreciate it.

LEVINSON: Thank you.

DEAN: Protests that began at New York's Columbia University have quickly expanded to more schools across the country with some closing their campuses to prevent anymore or unsafe conditions.

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