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College Protests Spread Amid Clashes With Police, More Arrests; Columbia Student Protest Leader Banned From Campus; Nebraska Residents Left Devastated By Tornado's Destruction; First Week Of Hush Money Trial Testimony Ends After Three Witnesses; Biden To Attend Tonight's White House Correspondents' Dinner; South Africa Marks 30 Years Since First Democratic Election. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired April 27, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:19]

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Hello, again, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

And we begin this hour with new developments in the unrest sweeping across American college campuses. At Arizona State police say they've arrested 69 people for trespassing after a large group formed an authorized encampment to protest the war in Gaza. According to the school, most of the people were not ASU students, faculty, or staff.

And at Northeastern University in Boston, the campus is all clear and has resumed normal operations. Police there detaining about 100 people this morning. In a statement, Northeastern officials say they believe professional organizers joined the ranks of student protesters. And police in Washington, D.C. are also keeping a close eye on demonstrators at George Washington University. Earlier today they blocked a street but remained peaceful.

Let's go now to other campuses across the country. CNN's Camila Bernal and Polo Sandoval are with us right now.

Camila, you're at UCLA. What's happening there?

CAMILA BERNAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Fred, it's relatively peaceful and quiet here at UCLA. But as you can see behind me, the encampment is here and it does take up a large part of the university. The university actually saying that they also have staff members for people who do not feel comfortable walking through this area or letting them know that this is what's going on here.

And I do want to say that no one is allowed inside unless they let you. They were not allowing us to go inside, but what they're saying is that some of the students are staying there the entire time, others are coming and going, and what they're telling me is that they want this university to divest from Israeli linked companies that are profiting from the war in Gaza. And they say they want to see that accountability from the university.

And then they maybe will leave this encampment. They say they're not giving up. You're seeing many, many tents and what they're telling me is happening inside is that they're having lessons about the political conflict in the Middle East. They're having religious ceremonies because they believe that this is the space where they can do that.

I spoke to a Jewish student that is part of these efforts and take a listen to what he told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN KERSTEN, UCLA STUDENT: We're here at our university, but we know that every university in Gaza has been turned into a graveyard. And as students, as Jews, as Palestinians, as allies in the United States, we want to end our complicity. The U.S. government and U.S. institutions are complicit through their funding. The UCs have investments tied up with the asset manager Blackrock, which invests in weapons manufacturing. And we're here to say that our institutions need to be supporting us. And that we refuse to be complicit in violence against Palestinians.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERNAL: And Ben told me that it was extremely important for him as a Jew to be here supporting this movement. In terms of this university, they say they will not call police officers until it's needed for the safety of their students. So in the meantime, you are seeing a lot of security guards walking around and going around in their bikes that those were hired by the university. But again, they will say that they will not call police until it is needed for the safety of the people here.

Over at USC, though, the campus essentially shut down. We're not allowed to go there after the protests this week. Their commencement ceremony also not happening this year. And keep in mind that the graduates this year were also the 2020 graduates in high school. So they did not have a graduation then. The university saying they're going to hold other events to try to get these graduates to have a special moment as well. Well, but again, a lot of things just disrupted in this university and at USC as well.

WHITFIELD: Yes. All right. Camila Bernal at UCLA. Thank you so much.

Let's go to New York now and Polo Sandoval is at the campus of Columbia University, which sparked a lot of these protests across the country.

So what's happening there, Polo?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Fred, it is certainly not lost on the members of this encampment that those pictures that Camila just showed you, that wave of protests, they originated in the very spot that you see behind me here in the heart of Columbia University. A member of this encampment telling me just a short while ago today on this Saturday, it is business as usual.

Of course, that has been redefined for the last week and a half as we continue to see this protest or presence on this lawn here. Yesterday after hearing from one of two negotiators, Makhmut Khalil, he's been negotiating with members of the university here as they tried to find some common ground, and eventually to be able to take all of this down. Khalil telling us that it seems that those ongoing negotiations, that they haven't stalled, they at least have slowed, and saying that, though there has been some progress that was made, they still have not been able to find that common ground which leaves things very much open-ended here, Fred.

[15:05:15]

We also heard from organizers, really leaders of this encampment who told us that thus far they don't expect any update in those negotiations, started last Friday, to be updated this weekend. The next update could potentially come on Monday.

We also heard from these organizers of the protest that said that they have not been offered any guarantees by the Columbia University president that they will not once again turn to the NYPD to force any of the participants of this campus off the area here. And then finally, this really has now left so many students kind of a state of uncertainty. This weekend I have an opportunity to speak to a student who is expecting to graduate from Columbia University next month.

Keep in mind, he started his undergraduate studies in 2020 when the pandemic interrupted his studies. Now he faces the possibility with this ongoing demonstration. But today is very much peaceful, potential disruptions there as well. So really just another voice as we continue to wait and see what kind of resolution the university will eventually try to find with members of this encampment that set up almost about a week and a half ago -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: And then, Polo, north of there in Boston at Northeastern University, we've heard about the tensions on that campus. What do you know?

SANDOVAL: About 100 individuals were detained yesterday at Northeastern University in Boston. The vice president of communications saying that this was part of their -- of cleaning up that campus, trying to remove anybody who's not affiliated with the university. We're told by campus officials that those that provided identification were released, but face the possibility of disciplinary action from the university. Those who refuse to identify themselves, they were detained.

So it really, what we have seen here for the last two weeks just a snapshot of what continues to play out as our colleague Camila just showed us in other parts of the country.

WHITFIELD: All right. Polo Sandoval in New York at Columbia University. Thank you.

All right. Columbia has become a flashpoint in the nationwide campus protests. But now one of the leaders of the school's demonstrations is banned from campus.

CNN's Miguel Marquez has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KHYMANI JAMES, STUDENT PROTEST LEADER: Zionists, they don't deserve to live comfortably, let alone Zionists don't deserve to live.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Khymani James, a spokesperson for the student protest at Columbia University, said this more than once in a personal social media post in January.

JAMES: The same way we're very comfortable accepting that Nazis don't deserve to live, fascists don't deserve to live, racists don't deserve to live, Zionists, they shouldn't live in this world.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): Confronted by CNN about his comments, James, unapologetic.

JAMES: I think we need to shift the conversation from people's comfort to the hundreds of thousands of people who have been displaced, the tens of thousands of people who have been murdered by Israel. I think it's very --

MARQUEZ: And how do your words help?

JAMES: I think it's very important --

MARQUEZ: How do your words help?

JAMES: I think it's very important for people to understand that the conflation of anti-Zionism with antisemitism is woefully incorrect and wrong. Again --

MARQUEZ: So do you apologize?

JAMES: Again, as I mentioned earlier, we believe in the sanctity of life here at this encampment.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): Despite his calls for a class of people to cease existing, James nearly daily expresses his belief that Israel is committing genocide.

JAMES: While Israel plans to move forward with its genocide, backed by the United States and other Western powers, it is important to remember why we are here.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): After being confronted, James released a statement, saying, in part, "I am frustrated that the words I said in an Instagram Live video have become a distraction for the movement for Palestinian liberation. I misspoke in the heat of the moment, for which I apologize.

Some Jewish students at Columbia say they have been called Zionists by protesters just for being Jewish. Other Jewish students have taken an active part in the protests for what they view as an overbearing Israeli response to the October 7th Hamas terror attack and a weak U.S. response to continued bloodshed. JONATHAN BEN-MENACHEM, JEWISH STUDENT SUPPORTING PROTESTS: It's

possible that pro-Palestine protests might make some Jewish students feel uncomfortable. But I will emphasize that, you know, the pro- Palestine protests here at the encampment are, you know, that they have fundamental values against hate and bigotry.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[15:10:00]

MARQUEZ (on-camera): A Columbia University spokesperson tells CNN that Khymani James has now been banned from campus, but won't comment any further on ongoing disciplinary proceedings. Back to you.

WHITFIELD: All right. Miguel Marquez, thanks so much.

Up next, communities across the heartland are beginning to clean up after devastating tornadoes rip through the Central Plains. We'll speak to the mayor of Omaha about the situation on the ground. And 55 million people are still under a severe weather threat. New tornado watches are being issued. We're tracking the storm next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:15:12]

WHITFIELD: All right. Welcome back.

New developments in our breaking weather story. Forecasters have just issued an extreme weather alert for parts of Oklahoma and Texas. It's a very rare alert that means dangerous supercells are expected. Nearly two million people are in the risk zone. This is happening after devastating tornadoes rip through the Central Plains overnight causing widespread damage.

A lot of developments are unfolding. For the latest, I'm joined now by CNN's Lucy Kafanov in hard-hit Elkhorn, Nebraska, and meteorologist Elisa Raffa, who is following conditions from the CNN Weather Center.

So, Lucy, let's go to you first. What are you hearing from residents?

LUCKY KAFANOV, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, actually, Fred, first of all, two homes, two-story homes completely flattened here. Now if we pan over a little bit here we see a lot of volunteers and residents who were doing active cleanup efforts here. They are part of the local Hindu temple which has about 5,000 members and the Nashville India Association of Nebraska. But they are all packing up their things right now as you can see because there is concern about another weather front moving through here.

In fact, you remember it was sunny when we spoke earlier. You can see the clouds moving in so people definitely want to get to safety here. But before that storm does move in, I just want to give you a little bit of a look of what we're looking at here. This home, half of that roof collapsed. We saw a child and a parent here trying to collect and salvage whatever items they had. The house next to it largely standing, although the back of it is destroyed.

You can see again the homeowners have these trucks here. They're trying to salvage what they can of the items inside. Most of the families here were sheltering in their basements. That's what prevented so much loss of life, and also their early warning system. And I just want to get around this vehicle here to show you there is some point we'll see it there's a dumpster over there. There's actually two dumpsters that have been completely full of debris.

And these are not folks from the state or the local, you know, these are not officials who are helping with cleanup. These are volunteers from the community. This is not official. People are really coming in to help. And I believe we also have a shot of a drone that's giving us the overlook

What that drone should be showing you, Fred, is that street that we were speaking at earlier where so many homes were flattened, where people again are trying to salvage what they can from their possessions, there is so much shock all of this happened so quickly. There's not really a lot of time to process the emotional impact of all of this. But yes, people for now pausing some of the construction efforts.

And what I'd actually love to end on a little bit of a positive note. This property destroyed, the flowers are still standing. A little bit of optimism in this time of tragedy -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: Yes, every little bit counts. But yes, those are the contradictions that come with tornadoes every time. All right. Thank you so much, Lucy.

Elisa, I mean, we're just hearing of more tornadic activity that could be on the way. What should people be bracing for?

ELISA RAFFA, AMS METEOROLOGIST: A lot of the same that we had yesterday. Today's bullseye is really going to be in Oklahoma area. All you see here in the red from southern Iowa through parts of Kansas into Oklahoma, even down into Texas. All of this is new tornado watches that are in effect as we go through the afternoon. Now, this one in particular, this one here in Oklahoma, that does now include Oklahoma City and Norman, Oklahoma, is a particularly dangerous situation.

That is a very rare type of tornado watch only issued about 7 percent of the time. And what that means is that we're not only worried about tornadoes, we're worried about strong tornadoes, EF-3 or stronger, because these storms are just really firing up and they just have so much juice in the atmosphere to work with. We do have a tornado warning there where parts of northern Texas. A lot of severe thunderstorm warnings right now just to the west there of Oklahoma City.

But, again, we're bracing for things to blow up and explode even more. The risk for today really is almost border to border. It's that red area that we're especially concerned about that moderate risk. It's a level four out of five. We're looking at the threat of, again, very strong tornadoes, damaging winds up to 75 miles per hour and tennis ball-sized hail in this red hatched area there that includes Tulsa, Oklahoma City, Wichita Falls.

We're looking at the possibility of, again, very strong tornadoes, EF- 3, EF-4, possible similar to what we saw yesterday. That would cause severe damage because we're talking about wins upwards of 135 miles per hour on that EF scale, the Enhanced Fujita scale that we use to determine what that damage looks like.

[15:20:05]

So just again, a very serious day ahead. On top of this, we also had a high risk issued for the heavy rain for some of those same suburbs there of Oklahoma City, just to the east there of Oklahoma City. That is also very rare, only issued 4 percent of the time but it's responsible for 40 percent of our flood related deaths and 80 percent of our flood related damages. So just incredible what the atmosphere has set up for us today.

Storms continue to blow up as we go into the afternoon. They could start to organize into a line as we go into Sunday, that would bring the damaging wind threat a little bit farther to the east. We have another day of severe weather to watch out for as we go through today, the day tomorrow. This threat doesn't look like it's as concerning for the strong tornado threat, but we could still pack damaging winds up to 70, 75 miles per hour, and some pretty large hail.

Some of those areas still kind of the same from southern Iowa down through Missouri and then includes parts of Arkansas, too. So a couple of busy days ahead for us.

WHITFIELD: Yes. All big concerns. All right. Elisa Raffa, thank you so much.

All right. In Omaha, Nebraska, the Elkhorn community was one of the hardest hit areas, but the city reports no deaths, only a few minor injuries.

Omaha Mayor Jean Stothert joining me now on the phone with the very late latest.

Mayor, I mean, tell me about the destruction that you have been seeing.

MAYOR JEAN STOTHERT, OMAHA, NEBRASKA: Yes. And it's quite widespread in a certain area of town. It's basically our northwest portion of Omaha in the Elkhorn area. But with all the destruction that I have seen, I must say without one death and very few injuries, minor injuries. And I really would be -- I have to say I'm so grateful to our early warning that we have had here with thanking our weather forecasters for clear and accurate warning or sirens that were going off really alerted people and a lot were just hunkered down on in their basements.

But thank God with all of this destruction, it's estimated right now, early estimates are about 100 homes were damaged severely and about 50 of those 100 were totally destroyed. And without one death, that is something that's really amazing. So I give all the credit to our weather forecasters and for all the early warning, but we still have a lot of work to do.

WHITFIELD: It is amazing. I mean, and that you credit the early warnings, and those basements, I mean, how remarkable. Now what are your concerns about people who are, you know, not professionals in this debris removal, but that they're out there helping, neighbor helping neighbor. We just heard our Lucy Kafanov report on seeing that, a community really coming together. But then what are your concerns about, you know, the risks that come with that?

STOTHERT: Right. And then this is part of it, but, you know, yesterday Omaha Fire Department, Omaha Police Department, they mobilized very quickly. In fact the storm was still here. They set up their command centers immediately out in that area and then yesterday evening, it was all hands-on-deck with the Omaha Fire Department, and they were going house to house, property to property that was damaged to make sure -- and to search and rescue and anybody that was in there that they would find and get to safety.

Right now I will say that response we have had from our community is pretty amazing. And that's not just from our city partners, in government, but are non-profit sectors and they're all continuing to work with us to provide support and resources. So on my web page for the city of Omaha, we are reporting all of these things that we think people need to know what services are available.

You know, we've set up one of our community centers out in Elkhorn last night, very quickly for shelter. There was about 100 people that needed shelter immediately. We provided that, working with the Salvation Army, Red Cross. All of those entities are a great help. But we just want to tell people to be very, very careful also. We still have some -- last night at the peak we had about 10,200 homes that were without power.

We're down to about 4300 now. Some of our distribution network was heavily damaged, but there are some areas that we are not re- energizing yet because we have lines down, power lines down. And if we would re-energize them then those would be live lines laying on the ground. So we really want to make people very, very cautious. Thank them for what they're doing and what they're doing to help but they still have to be cautious that it's still a potentially dangerous situation.

WHITFIELD: Right, in fact, you heard from our meteorologist, I mean, still more bad weather on the way. So what do you tell people how does the city prepare?

STOTHERT: Well, you know, these are unexpected events, weather events like this, natural disasters are, and we prepare, you know, for the worst and hope for the best. And so we are making sure that everyone here is aware of what the resources we have available for them now. But also, there's a potential of more bad weather today and tomorrow, too.

[15:25:00]

So we just want them to be alert and aware as they were yesterday, and to listen to what's going on in the news and what the information we're giving them. And if it's necessary, they may have to take shelter again, which I certainly don't want to have to do, but that's a potential. I will sign today a disaster proclamation which requests state and federal assistance. And it also lets the community know that these are unexpected expenses and that we're going to have to deal with them and pay for a lot of cleanup.

So that will be done this afternoon. We're providing free disposal sites. We have two now designated, that for tree debris in that area and they will be open every day. And so we will just continue to get people updates on the city's Web page and just makes sure that people stay tuned to what's going on on television with our weather forecasters.

WHITFIELD: All right. Omaha, Nebraska, Mayor Jean Stothert, thank you so much. And all the best to you and your community.

STOTHERT: You bet. Thank you.

WHITFIELD: Evacuation orders remained in place after a train carrying propane derailed near the Arizona-New Mexico border. Huge flames could be seen billowing from the tangled, overturned train cars. The burning hazardous material forced part of I-40 to be shut down. No reports of injuries. The cause of the derailment is unclear right now.

The NTSB is investigating. U.S. Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg said in a post that he is coordinating with state and local agencies to ensure safety in the region.

All right. Still to come, three witnesses took the stand in the first week of testimony on Donald Trump's hush money trial. The major takeaways and what's next, straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:31:17]

WHITFIELD: All right. Former president Trump's criminal hush money trial resumes on Tuesday. So far three witnesses have testified. Former "National Enquirer" publisher David Pecker wrapped up more than 10 hours of testimony on Friday, and jurors also heard from Trump's former longtime personal assistant, Rhona Graff, as well as Michael Cohen's banker, who arranged his home equity line of credit which Cohen used to pay Stormy Daniels $130,000 in hush money.

CNN's Kara Scannell has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARA SCANNELL, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A new witness, former President Donald Trump's assistant of 34 years, took the stand on Friday, shedding light on the inner workings of the Trump Organization in Trump's hush money trial. DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT, 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:

Rhona, let me have the calls please.

SCANNELL: Rhona Graff, whose office was next door to Trump's on the 26th floor of Trump Tower, said she was in control of his calendar and maintaining his contact list at the organization. Graff confirmed two contacts she maintained were for former Playboy model Karen McDougal and adult film star Stormy Daniels, two women who alleged affairs with Trump, both of which he denies.

McDougal's contact entry included a phone number, e-mail, and two addresses. Daniel's contact listed her cell phone. She testified, as far as she can remember, Trump never used e-mail to communicate. Prosecutor Susan Hoffinger asked Graff if she had seen Daniels at Trump Tower. Graff responded that she vaguely recalled once seeing Daniels in reception on the 26th floor.

Then it was Trump's attorney's turn to cross-examine Graff. Susan Necheles asked Graff about Trump's interest in casting stars in "Celebrity Apprentice," suggesting that was the reason Daniels was spotted at Trump Tower. Graff responded, that's what she assumed, testifying, I vaguely recall hearing him say that she was one of the people that may be an interesting contestant on the show.

TRUMP: Thank you. Good job.

SCANNELL: As Trump's assistant, Graff often appeared on "The Apprentice."

RHONA GRAFF, FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP'S ASSISTANT: Hi, this is Rhona from Trump's office. He asked me to call you and tell you to meet him tomorrow morning at the New York Stock Exchange.

SCANNELL: Graff said in her testimony that she felt "The Apprentice" elevated Trump to rock star status. Necheles also focused on demonstrating Trump and Graff had a good working relationship. She asked if Trump was a good boss. Graff responded, I think that he was fair and respectful boss to me. She added, sometimes he would peek his head in and say, go home to your family, which I thought was very thoughtful of him.

As Graff testified, Trump sat with a closed lip smile, tilting his head to get a better view of his former assistant. Trump's team made clear Graff was testifying under subpoena, with Necheles asking, you don't want to be here, do you? Correct, Graff replied.

Earlier, Trump's attorneys worked hard to undermine a foundational witness for the prosecution, ex-tabloid executive David Pecker, who is back on the stand for his fourth day of testimony. During Trump's attorney Emil Bove's questioning of the former "National Enquirer" publisher, he attempted to discredit one of the prosecution's key witnesses, Trump's ex-personal attorney Michael Cohen. He asked Pecker if he felt Cohen was prone to exaggeration. Pecker agreed he was.

After court, Trump weighed in on the trial. TRUMP: This is eight days that we've all been sitting in this

courthouse. I just want to thank everybody for being here. I know you have to suffer through this like everybody else.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCANNELL (on-camera): Michael Cohen's banker took the stand on Friday afternoon, explaining to the jury how he helped set up a bank account for the shell company that Cohen ultimately used to transfer the $130,000 payment stormy Daniels. There's no court on Monday, but the banker will be back on the stand Tuesday, answering question from prosecutors before Trump's lawyers get a turn at him.

Kara Scannell, CNN, New York.

WHITFIELD: And coming up former U.S. attorney general, Bill Barr, says Donald Trump should not be anywhere near the Oval Office, yet he still plans to vote for him.

[15:35:11]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: All right. In just a few hours, President Biden will attend the White House Correspondents Dinner. The star-studded event attracts celebrities from the entertainment world, politics and journalism. It also gives the president to stage a primetime slot to needle the media and his political rivals.

[15:40:06]

CNN's Priscilla Alvarez is joining us now from the White House.

Priscilla, what do we know about how the president is preparing for this evening?

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, there have been multiple strategy sessions out in the White House residence as they find tune his remarks for tonight. Of course, this is a tradition that dates back to Calvin Coolidge and it's an opportunity for the president to speak to a crowd of nearly 3,000 journalists, celebrities and politicians. And while it's usually a fun affair, it also comes as he faces low approval ratings. So it is still high stakes for him especially during a presidential election year.

Now up until this point, there has been a lot of prep behind the scenes for this that includes huddling with his advisers, as well as some submitting within his own orbit jokes for the evening because, again, this is also an opportunity for the president to have some fun, to needle the media and his Republican rival, Donald Trump. But in remarks before the president has also gone between being funny and being serious.

And that is certainly going to be the case tonight, especially with the backdrop of the conflicts that are unfolding abroad, but also with journalists who are detained abroad. So while he is going to flex his muscle when it comes to jokes, it's also a way in which he's going to make sure to strike a serious tone, especially when it comes to journalism, freedom of speech and the conflicts that are unfolding abroad.

But all the same, Fred, it is a highly anticipated night. It's one that the president has been preparing for, for days now, including his advisers, and get another opportunity to hear from the president during a high-stakes moment.

WHITFIELD: All right. Priscilla Alvarez at the White House. Thanks so much.

All right. Ahead of tonight's correspondents' dinner, President Biden made news by saying he's happy to debate Donald Trump in the lead up to this year's election. It's the first time Biden has said so explicitly in this campaign. Earlier, he told reporters any possible plans for debate would depend on Trump's behavior. Biden's latest comments came in a wide ranging surprise interview with shock jock Howard Stern.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOWARD STERN, HOST, "HOWARD STERN SHOW": I don't know if you're going to debate your opponent.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I am, somewhere. I don't know when, but I'm happy to debate him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right. I'm joined now by CNN senior political analyst, Ron Brownstein. He's also a senior editor for "The Atlantic."

Great to see you.

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Hi, Fred.

WHITFIELD: OK. Well, any surprise here, you know, that the president would say, yes, he's willing to debate?

BROWNSTEIN: Yes. Well, first, you know, this never happened. I mean, you know, Benjamin Harrison and Grover Cleveland didn't debate in 1892. Teddy Roosevelt running as a third-party candidate didn't debate William Howard Taft and Woodrow Wilson in 1912. We've never had a debate between two people who had been president as far as I know in any circumstance. So it would be obviously something historic.

I have been dubious that they would actually debate. As you know, the Republican National Committee pulled out of a cooperation with the Commission on Presidential Debates. They had been demanding all sorts of changes that would have been more favorable to Trump. I thought Biden would not be that anxious to get on a stage with Trump, again, after kind of the hectoring performance that, you know, he saw in 2020.

But each of them are making comments that are kind of moving us toward that possibility. And so I think you now have to say it is at least on the table, but whether they'll be able to, you know, get through all the details, actually stand across from each other, I'm not sure, but it certainly seems more possible than just six months ago.

WHITFIELD: So if they do it, you know, how important, you know, our debates really? I mean, how influential might it potentially be?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, we are a very dug-in country, right? And there are not a lot of moving pieces in the electorate. In many ways, it's not so much voters who are choosing between Biden and Trump as the choosing between one of them and not voting. And the reality is, as you know, one pollster for a general election presidential candidate once said to me, he said the cruel irony of this business is that the people of the most influence are the ones who are paying the least attention.

I mean, basically the last 8 percent or 10 percent of the electorate who is really untethered from both parties. So historically, debates have not had a huge effect. But I do think, you know, this is a tight race and at the margin everything matters. So if they do get on a debate stage, it would certainly be a high risk, high visibility event.

WHITFIELD: OK. All right. Let me pivot, you know, to these new comments from former Trump appointed U.S. attorney general, Bill Barr, who has said in the past that Donald Trump should be nowhere near the Oval Office because of these efforts to overturn the 2020 election. He now says he will still vote for him this November. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: You're voting for someone who you believe tried to subvert the peaceful transfer of power that can't even achieve his own policies, that lied about the election, even after his attorney general told him that the election wasn't stolen, and as the former chief law enforcement in this country, you're going to vote for someone who is facing 88 criminal counts.

[15:45:12]

BILL BARR, FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, look, the 88 criminal counts, a lot of those are in -- and I've said --

COLLINS: Even if 10 of them are accurate?

BARR: The answer to your question is yes. I'm supporting the Republican ticket.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right. So what do you make of, you know, Barr's justification and that of other, you know, Republicans who at first, you know, said, you know, Trump's should be nowhere near the responsibility of being president yet now are changing their tune?

BROWNSTEIN: Yes, you know, what the political scientists call negative partisanship is a hell of a drug. I mean, basically, what you see are these leaders like Mitch McConnell who Trump has attacked his wife in a racist term saying he's going to vote for him after the speech he gave, you know, immediately following January 6th. And what they are arguing essentially is that Joe Biden's liberal policy agenda is a greater threat, greater risk for the future of the country than the demonstrated evidence that Trump is willing to undermine the rule of law.

Roughly a quarter of Republican voters think Trump did something wrong after 2020. What Barr is saying is emblematic of the bigger question, what do they do?

WHITFIELD: All right, Ron Brownstein, we'll leave it there for now. Thanks so much.

BROWNSTEIN: Thanks for having me.

WHITFIELD: And tonight live from the nation's capital President Biden and comedian Colin Jost headline the White House Correspondents' Dinner. Our CNN coverage hosted by John Berman and Sara Sidner is live tonight at 7:00 Eastern Time on CNN, and streaming on Max.

We'll be right back.

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[15:51:26]

WHITFIELD: All right. Today marks 30 years since the historic election that brought Nelson Mandela the power in post-apartheid South Africa. It was a time of great hope for the future. 30 years later economic inequality still plagues the country and crime and corruption are major problems.

CNN's David McKenzie reports on the state of affairs ahead of next month's critical elections.

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SETH MAZIBUKO, SOUTH AFRICAN LIBERATION HERO: Into the corner of death.

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Liberation icon Seth Mazibuko lived the painful history of this country.

MAZIBUKO: Students were coming from that direction and police were coming from that direction. That morning of June 16, 1976, this was where the students who were marching peacefully. They were raising their hands and fingers of peace. They were given bullets.

MCKENZIE: Protesting the apartheid state and its racist education system.

MAZIBUKO: I still feel guilty to date that I led students and children out of the classroom to be killed. MCKENZIE: Their sacrifice and the sacrifices of later generations

helped topple the violent apartheid state. Birthing a peaceful democratic South Africa. The Rainbow Nation, where everyone can vote. But for Mazibuko, 30 years on, the rainbow has faded.

Has the leadership of this country respected the sacrifices that you've made?

MAZIBUKO: Sold out.

MCKENZIE: Sold out?

MAZIBUKO: Many of the leaders that were supposed to be leading, they left this community. They left the very people that they were fighting for.

MCKENZIE: When thousands of students were bravely marching down these streets, they were fighting for a better future for South Africa. But decades later, here's a staggering statistic. More than 80 percent of grade fours cannot read.

Has it gotten worse over the 18 years of you being at the school?

PRINCE MULWELA, TEACHER, MORRIS ISAACSON HIGH SCHOOL: Yes, it's becoming worse and worse.

MCKENZIE (voice-over): At Morris Isaacson High School, famous for its role in '76, teachers like Prince Mulwela say that jobs and education are given to the politically connected. And corruption is rife. Primary students now come to his classes unprepared, he says. Corruption watchdogs call it a silent crisis.

MULWELA: We're living in a world, in South Africa, where it's all about politics. Everything is being politicized. So the education system is also being politicized. So that is the reason why probably we're experiencing such problems.

ATLEGANG ALCOCK, STUDENT, MORRIS ISAACSON HIGH SCHOOL: I feel honored being in the school because then I get to learn about history.

MBALI MSIMANGA, STUDENT, MORRIS ISAACSON HIGH SCHOOL: Some put their lives in danger for a better future, for better education.

MCKENZIE (voice-over): I spoke to two leading students at Morris Isaacson. They are proud of their school, but acutely aware of the challenges that lie ahead.

Is there enough opportunity for young people like yourselves in this country?

ALCOCK: Right now, no.

MSIMANGA: It's going to be a struggle. Yes. And it is scary for us to be sitting at home and doing nothing.

ALCOCK: Especially when you know that you went to a university for so long, and you have a degree, a qualification, but you're still struggling to get a job because of the unemployment rates.

MCKENZI (voice-over): Those rates are some of the world's highest. An uncertain future despite the bitter struggles of the past.

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David McKenzie, CNN, Soweto.

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WHITFIELD: And thank you so much for joining me today. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. The CNN NEWSROOM with Jessica Dean is up next.

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JESSICA DEAN, CNN ANCHOR: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM.

Hi, everyone. I'm Jessica Dean in Washington, and we begin with dangerous and powerful storm system shaping up across the Central Plains.