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CNN International: Police Confront Protesters At University Of Texas-Austin; Blinken: Israel Proposal To Hamas "Extraordinarily Generous"; National, Swing-State Polls Show Tight Race Between Biden & Trump. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired April 29, 2024 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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JIM SCIUTTO, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: It is 8:00 p.m. in London, 10:00 p.m. in Riyadh, 2:00 p.m. in Austin, Texas, 3:00 p.m. here in Washington. I'm Jim Sciutto, thanks so much for joining me today on CNN NEWSROOM.
And let's get right to the news.
We begin at the University of Texas in Austin, where tensions are running high right now, law enforcement are standing off with student protesters there, beginning it appears to make arrest.
I want to bring in CNN's law enforcement correspondent, Josh Campbell.
Josh, explain the law to me here. What law do police say the students are violating to necessitate the response we're seeing?
JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Jim, and this isn't just UT-Austin, but it's the same law that we've seen cited in so many of these locations across the country at college campuses whenever arrests were being made and it's essentially comes down to trespass. Regardless of where one falls on the ongoing issue and how rights just they think their cause, there is no First Amendment right to protest on private property.
And so, that's where this comes down to. You know, I've talked to folks in law enforcement who say that we don't want to be involved in any of this. But, of course, they're the ones who get called and not just at a university, but anywhere where there's someone who was not authorized to be on private property in order to try to remove those individuals. And that's what we're seeing take place right now, this escalation by law enforcement there in Austin, a number of different agencies.
You have the Austin Police Department, the University of Texas police department, and also the Texas State Troopers. We see them there in this crowd control gear. They moved in just a short time ago to this makeshift encampment that was set up with just a couple of dozen people that were there eventually moving in, pulling away some card tables that were set up to serve as somewhat of a barrier for this makeshift camp that was installed there. And then we've seen a couple of people detained, unclear yet if they're actually going to move in and try to detain the rest of the group that you're seeing on your screen.
CAMPBELL: Yeah, so, for so for folks watching to Josh's point, there, these are police and state troopers. They're not members of the military, but as we often see in this country, police uniforms, police equipment can resemble military equipment, which has come under some criticism in this country at times.
Josh, there was an incident on the UT-Austin campus, I believe last week when arrest were made, but then those arrested were released and I believe that charges dropped. As I understand it, some students are being detained, but not arrested. What -- what's the difference?
CAMPBELL: Yeah. So as, of right now, appears authorities are just trying to break up this makeshift camp and they can pull people out of that, obviously placed them into custody of law enforcement when use the word we use the word like arrest. We think, well, they've been now charged with something or taken to jail. Unclear if that's actually going to happen, or rather law enforcement is just focused on dispersing this crowd that is there. So we've yet to be seen on that front.
But to your point, you know, even though we saw last week over 60 arrests at UT-Austin has police moved in the local district attorney ultimately decided that they would not actually charge these individuals and that was in a sense to try to reduce some of the tensions that we've seen here. Because again, were not talking about violent crimes, but we certainly are talking about trespassing and we've seen particularly the University of Texas come out and say that this is something that they're not going to abide.
It's worth pointing out as well that unlike in some other areas around the country where we've seen law enforcement tried de-escalate things. In Texas, the Republican governor, Greg Abbott, came out last week after that incident very forcefully saying basically that all these people need to be in jail. It's worth pointing out the Texas state troopers obviously worked for him. So different tactic, a different tack that were seeing being by law enforcement in Texas than we've seen at other colleges.
SCIUTTO: At UT-Austin, have we seen any violence by the protesters, the demonstrators there, or is this principally a response to just being where they are, trespass?
CAMPBELL: So -- yeah, last week, there were some incursions between protesters and counter protesters, as well as some skirmishes between law enforcement in these groups, as well as they worked to move in. And that's one thing that we often hear from police as well, is that it officer is trying to remove someone from a location, if you then do so much touch an officer and it provoking way, that could be grounds for criminal charge.
And so, you know, obviously, it doesn't get to that. They hope that once they give these dispersal warnings, that people will comply. But oftentimes we see that they haven't. But your question, Jim, not wide- scale violence there at the University of Texas.
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And it's worth even pointing out that now, today, it seemed that law enforcement, even as they escalated here and moved in, it seems to be a much more methodical process than we saw last week. You have first the group of local police, they were surrounded by these state troopers. They're essentially serving as the rear security for these officers.
So they at least appear to have some type of plan, whereas last week, it appeared much different.
SCIUTTO: And while there are regional well differences, we should note that the first arrests in these protests took place in New York City at Columbia, where authorities there at the university asked police to come into arrest them.
Always good, Josh Campbell, to have your perspective and your experience, longtime special agent for the FBI.
We want to go now to Columbia where we reported earlier, the Columbia University management leadership made a deadline of 2:00 p.m. today, for protesters to leave the encampment there. You're still seeing pictures of Austin, Texas, but we're going to move to Columbia shortly.
And our reporters on the ground have told us that those Columbia students have not left, in effect defying that order.
Joining us now is Taya -- is Columbia Student Body president Taya Vijayakumar.
For transparency, we should note that she interned last year for CNN's parent company, Warner Brothers Discovery.
Taya, thanks so much for joining me.
First, can you tell us what is happening right now on the Columbia campus? There was a 2:00 p.m. deadline. It's now 3:00 Eastern Time here. But it appears that most or all and here's a live picture there now as well of the protesters have decided to stay.
TEJASRI VIJAYAKUMAR, STUDENT BODY PRESIDENT, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: Yeah. So right now, the protesters are reorganizing on the encampment and a lot of other students and faculty have come out form to get line to attempt to protect them.
SCIUTTO: Sorry, I said Taya, Teja I should say.
A very basic question for you and now we've switched back to live pictures from Austin, we'll distinguish as we show each of the experiences there.
Teja is as you -- I'm sure you've seen some pictures if you're not seeing this one right now, the police response in Austin, Texas and were seeing them grab protesters there, handcuff them and take them away, which we saw last week. And you also saw at Columbia a couple of weeks ago police arrest protesters.
What's your response to seeing that police response?
VIJAYAKUMAR: Yeah. There's nothings scarier than watching the police arrest your peers, especially when they are just sitting or not posing any of (INAUDIBLE). It definitely like sent a shock through our campus and was received really, really poorly by our student body.
SCIUTTO: There's a basic question here. Critics have described these protests as fundamentally antisemitic.
Are they, or are participants in the protests on Columbia's campus mixed in background and in their message?
VIJAYAKUMAR: Yeah, I'd say about the protests are extremely mixed in perspective. I think like there's no room for antisemitism at Columbia. I also really don't think that these protests are antisemitic. I think they are critical of war and critical of the Israeli military but I don't think that they're antisemitic.
In fact, many of the people in the encampment are Jewish. They held a Passover Seder and Shabbat dinners, and they have like a lot of teachings about antisemitism and how to actively not be antisemitic.
SCIUTTO: What is your review of Columbia University's response to the encampment and the protests there so far?
VIJAYAKUMAR: Yeah. I kind of wish that the university would acknowledge their students commitment to peaceful protests because the encampment has been itself very, very peaceful thus far. And I think the messaging around the encampment has sort of antagonize to the protesters, the student protesters in particular, which I think is a little bit unfair to students. I think, you know, we can say what you want about them protesting outside of our campus and outside of our community. But the encampment has been pretty peaceful as well.
SCIUTTO: Has there been communication among student leaders at Columbia and say for instance, UT-Austin and some of the other campuses where these protests are taking place?
VIJAYAKUMAR: I haven't had communication with other students at UT- Austin, but I haven't been in contact with student leaders at Yale and at Harvard who also there were also encampments set up there and you know, there were also addressed and you've been talking about or universities responses and anything we can do in our capacity as student leaders.
SCIUTTO: What would you need to see on Columbia's campus for the protest to end, for the encampment to end?
VIJAYAKUMAR: Yeah, I think that -- well, I'm not one of the negotiators for the encampment.
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I think that they would tell you complete divestment, right? They would tell you 100 percent divestment from companies that are doing business with Israel.
I am not sure about like what their attitude has been in the negotiating room. So I don't know if they are willing to settle for something that is a little less than that, but close or like up plan for a timeline for divestment. But I think what they are sticking to is that they need complete divestment to stop, and that's -- that hasn't been offered yet.
SCIUTTO: Well, Teja Vijayakumar, thanks so much for sharing the experience at Columbia. We'll continue to watch events there as well, and we appreciate you joining.
VIJAYAKUMAR: Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.
SCIUTTO: Well, now, we're going to go south to Emory University, where the faculty are holding a no confidence vote against the school's president over last week's decision to call in police there to clear out the protests, where we saw very similar scenes to what were seeing now at UT-Austin. Universities continue to bring in police to arrest, clear protesters encampments. This map gives you an idea of the forceful response across the nation, all those places where protests are taking place and where arrests have taken place.
Sarah Davis is a senior at Emory University, the former editor in chief of the student newspaper "The Emory Wheel".
And, Sarah, I understand you've been covering these protests closely.
You heard me ask a similar question to Teja Vijayakumar at Columbia as to who makes up the protesters. On Emory's campus, they've been criticized as they have been on Columbia's campus, UT-Austin is being antisemitic. Are they there on Emory, or are they mixed into? And that they have different messages?
SARAH DAVIS, FORMER EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, THE EMORY WHEEL: Sure. And so the question at Emory specifically because up until today, university administrators have maintained that the initial over Thursday encampment (INAUDIBLE) police was mainly made up of people outside of the Emory community, which numbers that the Emory police provided from last Friday did not seem to support.
So from what I've seen, it appears to be majority member of the community. Additionally, you're seeing some people from the other (INAUDIBLE) area.
I have talked to some Jewish students who do believe that messaging has been antisemitic but again, as we see with Columbia, there are a lot of Jewish students who are also joining the protests.
SCIUTTO: We're showing some pictures now from April 25th at Atlanta as police, I believe this is the professor who was forced to the ground, cuffed. There she is, yes, professor -- Professor Fohlin. What's your response to seeing police take such a forceful response to protesters have otherwise been -- they've been peaceful?
DAVIS: Sure, I think a lot of members of our community were very shocked to see the swift response from police and police at the Georgia State Patrol and Atlanta police, they arrested 28 protesters, including 20 members of the Emory community. And of that 22 were faculty members.
So it was really shocking. And I think you see that in the faculty walkout that happened today about 200 people gathered in the center of campus, and faculties speakers spoke out against that police response.
As you mentioned, there was also a motion last Friday from faculty to place a vote for no confidence for President Gregory Fenves, that vote is expected to come this week.
SCIUTTO: Do you believe that that response, the efforts to clear the encampment and the arrest, particularly the way we see those arrested been carried out, do they make the situation worse in your view?
DAVIS: Yeah. Well, many people who were at the protest were very shocked by the use of pepper bullets and a Taser on one individual. It was a peaceful protest. They were attempting to set up an encampment. And so, too many of the people that I've spoken to, they did not believe that that was an appropriate response from the university and police.
SCIUTTO: Is it scary to be on the campus there now?
DAVIS: I think many students feel unnerved walking around. I mean, students were going to classes today, Friday classes were canceled, but Monday classes resumed. And in several faculty members canceled their classes, but still people were having to cross the quad where police detain symbol of their own peers and I think that is uncomfortable.
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SCIUTTO: Yeah, I mean, listening, as you've been speaking there, you may not have seen it, but again, it's the video of those two male police officers wrestling a female professor to the ground.
Sarah Davis, thanks so much for joining. I'm sure this has to be very unsettling to go through, particularly as a student right now. We should tell you as we did, that Sarah was a former CNN intern here.
Please be safe. Take care of yourself there.
DAVIS: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: We're going to take a short break now. As we do, we're going to show you live pictures from the University of Texas at Austin where protesters remain even as police have begun to move in. We'll be right back.
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SCIUTTO: Welcome back.
U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken is in Saudi Arabia today. Hamas is considering a new offered deal for the release of hostages in exchange for a pause in the fighting in Gaza. Blinken says this latest proposal from Israel to Hamas is, quote, extraordinarily generous. At this point, Hamas is quote, the only thing standing between the people of Gaza and a ceasefire, according to Blinken.
CNN's Kylie Atwood has the latest from the State Department.
Kylie, do have a sense given the secretary of state has flown right back out to the region that a deal could be in the offing, that they're getting close?
KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: You know, I would say yes, but I would also say, Jim, we've been here before, right? There have been moments where there has been optimism that there could be some sort of a deal reached. And it hasn't come to fruition.
So we need to tread lightly as we, you know, talk about what to expect here. Certainly, the secretary of state putting pressure on Hamas, you know, telling them not only that they're getting a good, a good hand here, but also saying think that they need to make decisions and they need to make them quickly. The backdrop to that comment, of course, is that the Israelis have been saying for quite some time now that they intend to go ahead with a incursion into Rafah.
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And it's quite clear that if there isn't some sort of a ceasefire agreement here with the release of those hostages, that this may well be the time that they go ahead and do that. And U.S. officials obviously have warned against that because of all of those civilians who are there, 1.5 million of them saying, even today, the secretary of state, that Israel still has yet to present a plan to the us that would actually protect those civilians.
So that's the backdrop here. But I also think it's important to widen the aperture even a little bit more. The secretary isn't only there to try and give momentum to these ceasefire conversations, but also to come to an agreement with the Saudis over this overall plan that the Biden administration is working on, that they hope would secure an end to this conflict.
They are, we know it has many pieces, Jim. It's that Israel-Saudi normalization. It's that defense agreement between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia. And, of course, it's that pathway to a two-state solution.
So the secretary did discuss those things with Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman today, the State Department saying in their readout that they discussed an ongoing efforts to achieve lasting regional security and peace. So, we'll have to watch and see how close they come to securing that framework.
SCIUTTO: We'll see if they make progress on either.
Kylie Atwood, thanks much.
Joining me now to discuss more broadly, CNN national security analyst and former deputy director of national intelligence, Beth Sanner.
Beth, good to have you.
BETH SANNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Hi, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Beth, I mean, to Kylie's point there. We've been here before where they've worked hard, they said they might be close to a deal. Latest proposal seems to be for the release of up to 33 hostages over several weeks -- in addition, for a temporary ceasefire.
Do you get a sense based on the shuttle diplomacy going on here, that there are at least close to that deal?
SANNER: It feels that there as close as they're going to get, I agreed. I thought Kylie gave a great report there and it does seem that this -- it feels like kind of the last opportunity to get this deal before the Israelis would go into Rafah. So there's a lot at stake here.
SCIUTTO: No question. So let's talk about Rafah then because Blinken said the U.S. would not support a major military operation, quote, in the absence of a plan to ensure that civilians will not be harmed, and that the U.S. had not yet seen that plan.
I mean, from -- I mean, America's closest ally in the region, Israel, what specifically are they looking forward. If they haven't seen that yet, you get the chance that -- you get the sense rather that Israel is, well, committed to moving forward, regardless?
SANNER: Well, I think we have to also understand that there's a domestic context to everything no matter what country you're in, right? So Netanyahu definitely has a lot of pressure on him from both sides inside his war cabinet and his government. So the far-right, Ben-Gvir and finance minister Smotrich have both come out very publicly and said, look, if you deal, if you agree to a bad deal, not defined, this government won't stand.
And then Benny Gantz who is the key opposition leader, holding that war cabinet together says, you know, we have to do a good deal. This government would have no legitimacy if they didn't agree to basically this deal.
You know, I do think that there's going to be conflicts there, but if there is no deal, if Hamas says no, then I think that Gantz, this is his position and Israel will go and whether they can satisfy us or not. I think that they'll move halfway there, but they're going to figure out some way somehow to finish Hamas or what they define as.
SCIUTTO: Yeah, it would also leave open the health and safety, of course, of those hostages, given we don't quite know where they're being held in the midst of this --
SANNER: Absolutely.
SCIUTTO: -- major operation. Well, Beth Sanner, I know we're going to follow up on this soon given
the events are so fluid there. Thanks so much for joining this afternoon.
SANNER: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: When we do come back, police and protesters clash at the University of Texas at Austin. Tensions remain high and well, listen, the police response as you're seeing there, just moments ago, has been extremely heavy handed.
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SCIUTTO: Turning back now to our top story, pro-Palestinian protests have been disrupting major universities, including Columbia also, as you're seeing here, this is the University of Texas at Austin, where just moments ago we saw police and state troopers moving in and military style gear there to wrestle protesters, some protesters to the ground, handcuff others to detain them.
We should note they arrested a number of protestors, I believe last week on campus, later dropped the charges against them.
CNN law enforcement correspondent Josh Campbell joins us now.
Josh, you worked in law enforcement for a long time at the FBI. Explain what the goal of the police responses here. Is the goal simply to remove the encampments or to end the protests or attempt to end the protests altogether.
CAMPBELL: Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think at the outset the police are essentially taking their direction from the university itself when a university determines that, look, we have people on our property that we don't want to be here. That's enough for the police to try to clear them out of that area.
Now, it is a misdemeanor crime in order to criminally trespass, as you mentioned, the charges against the individuals that were charged last week that was ultimately dropped by the local district attorney. And so, it looks as though they're taking this in stages. It wouldn't be unusual for authorities to see this small camp start and then try to determine okay, let's get ahead of this. This is the same part of the University of Texas at Austin where commencement will be held, the same grassy area there in front of the iconic UT Tower.
And so you can imagine, as we've seen in places like Columbia University, where this camp started small and then they began to grow. It looks like law enforcement authorities there in Texas are trying to prevent that from spreading. Of course, the question comes down to, as you mentioned can you know does this then resurface? Do people come back?
You can't, for a large area like University of Texas, which is in downtown Austin, you can't surround that area of law enforcement 24/7. And so it does raise questions about what the long-term goal is here, but at least in the short-term to try to get rid of this camp.
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SCIUTTO: You worked for the FBI. What are the -- I hate to use the phrase rules of engagement since that relates to military action. But as I see half a dozen offices there dragging a protester away, are the rules of engagement to -- is the training design to de-escalate encounters like this?
CAMPBELL: Yeah, that is the goal to try to de-escalate a situation. Now, we often associate that with protests that we might see out in public this again, because were talking about private property, the authorities, you know, they do have the option to say, okay, we're just not going to do anything. But obviously, that's not -- that's not the tack that they're taking there.
The first thing they'll try to do is issue a verbal warning, which we know that they did there in Texas multiple times, telling this group, look, if you don't leave, you will be taken into custody and then they moved in to try to disassemble this makeshift camp. And now were seeing them essentially one by one go and try to take people away.
Now, again, as bad as this looks, obviously, this is an escalation by authorities there in Texas. If they are under the lawful authority to try to remove trespassers, they will use as much force as necessary to try to bring people out. We've seen places like at Emory University in Georgia where there was one officer on camera who is essentially body slamming a professor onto the ground. That obviously causing widespread condemnation, a type of force that didn't appear to match what was needed there.
And so, what we're seeing in Austin is they're pulling people out. One thing that we obviously will wait to see is whether we see any type of resistance by some of these protesters. We have seen various college campuses that law enforcement officers themselves have been the subject of physical force by the actual protesters that obviously rationing things up. We hope that doesn't happen here.
At least by the number -- of the sheer number of law enforcement we're seeing here. The tactics they're using to fully encircle this makeshift camp. And then one, one my by one, pull people out. It appears that they're trying to fully disassemble that, Jim.
SCIUTTO: It does appear to be the case.
I wonder if you've seen regional differences state-by-state differences, in how law enforcement has responded -- to be clear, we have seen arrest in multiple states regardless of who runs them. I mean, in Columbia, in fact, Columbia University, it was policed in New York were the first to carry out arrest, which helped spark a lot of the protests were seeing around the country.
But have you seen -- I mean, I ask that question because you do have differences in how political leaders in each states left versus right have described the protests or attack them. And, of course, in this case, for instance, the state troopers here on the UT Austin campus, they work for the governor who's Republican and has had quite serious rhetoric to that degree.
Do you -- you are finding differences in the way the law has been applied based on the politics of each state?
CAMPBELL: Yeah, the escalation, the temple of escalations certainly seems to be different. We're were seeing there in Texas, as you mentioned last week, the Republican governor coming out slamming protesters, calling them criminals, saying they all need to be in jail. The Texas state troopers worked for the governor there is a question about what authority he provided here in order to take part in this clearing operation.
But, you know, we have seen in other places where they have taken a different tack to try to focus more on de-escalation. I think the bigger point you hit on here with politics because we've certainly seen politicians inject themselves into these ongoing protests.
And I can tell you, you know, you and I, Jim, we've covered back in 2020, the massive protests that were across the United States after the murder of George Floyd, some of them very tensions, some of them turning into riots. I've talked a law enforcement people as we covered that, that story, and they would say time and again, we want politicians on both sides, the right end, the left to get out of this.
Let us do our job here to try to keep the peace, to try to have open communication with, with these groups and try to de-escalate things. But it seems like every time a politician then jumps in and tries to a fan the flames here, that makes it much more difficult obviously for the police who are essentially just trying to bring tensions down.
So a very volatile time right now, not just at UT, but at campuses across the United States.
SCIUTTO: Josh Campbell, thanks so much.
Joining me now is Stephen Collinson.
This is a highly political issue. Of course, I mean, not just the response from law enforcement, but also the issue at the center here, which is, of course, the war in Gaza, Israel's war in Gaza, and how voters see that war -- one, which has sparked these protests, but also how they see their politicians and their leaders.
New CNN polling tell us what it shows us about Biden, who's struggled with members of his own party about his handling of the Israel-Hamas war.
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN REPORTER: Right. Of course, the root of all these protests, whatever they're about now, was originally Biden's failure to do more to rein in the Israelis assault on Hamas in Gaza, which has killed tens of thousands of civilians. And the president's handling, as we see in our poll of this war, is not at all popular. Seventy-one percent of voters in that poll, a national poll disapprove of the way the presence been handling it.
[15:35:03] You know, it's not the most important issue for voters, only about a quarter say it's exceedingly important to their vote in November. Things like the economy, immigration are much more important, but where it's dangerous for Biden and where these pictures will come into this and where that's a little bit of a political liability for him, is that 81 percent of under 35s disapprove of his handling of the war.
Those are important people. There are small group in the broad swath of the electorate, but they're very important in the Democratic coalition under 35s, progressives really are angry with the present and its got to a point where you have to wonder, will they vote for him because of it?
SCIUTTO: But does our polling or other polls asked the question, do you believe the alternative Trump would be better on this issue or has been better on the issue?
COLLINSON: No, that is one question which when you talk about Biden's handling of the war, if you go and talk to someone who's critical of him, you say, look Trump during his administration was much more of an enabler of the Netanyahu government, the far right extremist coalition in Israel than Biden ever was. But I think what were seeing here is one of the disadvantages is of incumbency, not just on the Israel issue but on the wider political issue where the presence seems to be behind the former president.
When you're the incumbent, you get the blame for everything that's going on, just people don't look at the challenges so much. It is interesting because in a way, Trump is an incumbent as well as a former president, trying to win back the White House. But he doesn't seem to be facing the problems of incumbents.
SCIUTTO: To that point, the -- your piece that you have up is called Biden is up against nostalgia for Trump's first term. Tell us what you mean by that and what the poll, how the poll reflected that.
COLLINSON: So, when Trump left office in the chaos after January the 6th his presidency was by a majority of Americans seen as a failure. Now that has flipped 55 percent of Americans believed that his presidency was actually a success. So, obviously there's probably 42 percent Republicans who viewed it as a success when he left office. But now there's a big chunk of the electorate who look more favorably on Trumps presidency, which lets remember, including two impeachments constant chaos tweeted firings of cabinet members and everything else than they do. Biden's presidency and six in ten Americans, think Biden's presidency is a failure.
I think it does go back to incumbency as I was saying, but also the biggest issue in this election from our polling is the economy. I think people in Washington don't necessarily understand that the pain out there in the heartland caused by high interest rates, caused by prices which is still pretty high for groceries and gas and other things.
People remember, pre-pandemic Donald Trump, the prices were lower. People tell you that when you speak to voters over and over again. So while a lot of us remember the Trump presidency in its pandemic
dimension, I think people are almost nostalgic for a sense of security. This were in an era of economic insecurity. I think that's one of the things that's hurting the president right now.
SCIUTTO: Right, and memories can be short. That's a long -- long time factor among voters.
Before we go, give us the ranking of these issues in voters' minds as relates to foreign policy, economy, abortion, et cetera.
COLLINSON: Right, and that's what I'm saying. If you look at the numbers, Israel, Hamas war, that's down at 26 percent.
SCIUTTO: As a number one issue?
COLLINSON: As a number one issue. The economy, protecting democracies. Number two, that's interesting because you would think, given that Donald Trump tried to overthrow democracy in 2020, that he would be hurting on the issue, but he's been quite successful in convincing Republicans that democracy is under threat from Biden. Part of that is that the falloff of all these cases, the legal cases which Republican see is --
SCIUTTO: Which is remarkable given he attempted to overturn election. But again, voters will make their own choices.
Stephen Collinson, thanks so much.
Turning back to our top story, these protests disrupting major U.S. universities, including Columbia, where the administration set a 2:00 p.m. Eastern deadline, which is, of course, passed to clear the encampment or face suspension. We've been showing you pictures as well as are as were showing you now of Austin, Texas, where police and state troopers have begun to move in and arrest protesters there.
Our Ed Lavandera is on the scene.
Ed, we've seen quite heavy-handed response from police there, wrestling protesters to the ground, arrest them, handcuff them. Can you tell us what you're witnessing there?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Jim. Well, here on the University of Texas campus, there was an event that started off earlier today, several hours ago now, at this point, either supposed to be kind of an educational theme, there was poetry readings, there was protest sign, art classes that were going on.
[15:40:02]
And all of the sudden, the students that you see there in the picture in front of you or the protesters are not all of these protesters, our students, it's clear to us, set up -- use the tables and had created a barricaded in an encampment. They started handing out a literature saying that this was liberated zone on the University of Texas campus in solidarity with the other campuses across the country when they started setting up these tents.
But what is clear given what we saw this campus last week is that the university was not going to allow any kind of encampment no matter how small budget to get set up here on this -- on this campus. That was clear that that's what were going to prevent. And now in the last hour-and-a-half so we have seen about a dozen of these protesters taken into custody.
There were warnings. There was a text message that went out university-wide telling protesters that if they did not disperse from the campus, that they would be arrested in violation of disorderly conduct. They were also other officials that came out here are using a blow horn, talking to these protesters as well.
They refused to leave. And then what we've seen take place here the in the last hour or so is small groups of officers going in, targeting very specific individual protesters one at a time and pulling in an out of this area. The state troopers, the department of public safety, has set up a barricade around this encampment.
And we should point out is a relatively well to be honest, on the south mall of the campus and so, these are the police force to state police force that was used last week to clear out the protesters. But this is very different from last week. The protests we saw last week was in the process of moving part of campus into this area.
This is a very fixed protests in one location. And now, Jim, what were seeing is the protesters sitting down and have been locked in arms --
SCIUTTO: Right.
LAVANDERA: -- trying to prevent officers from going in there and pulling people out groups but six officers at a time will go there, grab one or two people at a time, yank them out. And they take them to down the street from where we are here in this campus.
SCIUTTO: Ed --
LAVANDERA: So, clearly, the university is zero tolerance idea of that they were not going to write any kind of encampment here, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Ed, it's important point you make is sometimes having covered my share of protests, it can look bigger than it is, right? If you move a block away it might not be as big. So that's an important point.
But you say that police are identifying particular protesters to arrest them. Do you know how they're making those choices? Does that relate to who are members of the community and who are not?
LAVANDERA: It's very difficult to tell. We can't really tell, perhaps the first view that we've got the impression that or they seem to be the most vocal people that were part of the chanting here in this group. That was our kind of suspicion.
But it's been so chaotic here in the last hour, sometimes its a little more difficult to tell exactly why one person or another gets -- gets isolated and taken out of the -- out of the crowd. But early on, it seemed like it was the most -- the most vocal people that were being -- that were being pulled out of -- out of the protest in this encampment.
SCIUTTO: Understood, and in terms of the reaction of students there that you've met, how do they feel about this when they see this police response and when they see the protesters. Are they -- are they scared? Are they outraged? Do they support the protesters?
LAVANDERA: This is a massive campus and 50,000 students in a sprawling campus here in the heart of Austin, Texas. So she really to kind of give you scale of what you're looking at here, this is one small area, significant part of campus, one of the most iconic spots on this university.
But this is a small group and you see behind me, this is the bearing to set up by state troopers that kind of goes in a circle all the way around here. It's probably 20 to 30 yards in diameter. And then there's a decent sized groups with people gathered around onlooking, they are supporters here.
But there's just a lot of people who are standing some distance away, Jim. You can see from the steps of the south mall, barricades that have been set up, and we've seen throughout, just people who've just been standing around watching all of this unfold. People that you don't necessarily get the sense that they're engaged in this protests one way or the other. But clearly, this is a boisterous and intense situation, and many of these people wanted -- wanted to watch it.
So, you know, those people out here on the outside, on the outside of this encampment. You see how people can team in support of those protesters but again, this is a very isolated area of campus and we don't get any indication that this is happening elsewhere.
[15:45:00]
SCIUTTO: It's a good point, Ed. And to take that view from behind the center of the protest is an important one to see.
Ed Lavandera, there on the campus of UT-Austin, thanks so much.
We're going to have more on the campus protests as students protest the ongoing Israel-Hamas war. Thanks so much. We'll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: As we check in on campus protests around the country, in New York at Columbia, it's been almost two hours since the university set a deadline for students to break down the pro-Palestinian encampment you see there from the air. So far, students are defining that order.
Omar -- CNN's Omar Jimenez is on-campus for us.
So, what's happening now that that deadline has passed? [15:48:21]
OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, a combination of things is happening. So right after the deadline passed, we essentially saw a number of students start to circle the encampments. So, those are the students that you're seeing marching through right now. Obviously, some beating a bucket for the rhythm of the march as well, but that's what we saw in the initial stages of it. And that's continuing though, and much lesser numbers that when we saw about an hour and a half ago.
Now, we're seeing a Jewish student who I spoke to very briefly a little while ago so waving the Israeli flag over some of these protesters that had been coming in. He told me is a sophomore here at Columbia University and he wants people to know that he's not going anywhere and that this is his campus, too.
So that is happening as well when you come over this way, this is obviously one of the main quads, but this is the entrance to the encampment of horse that has been the focal point of the protests throughout all of this.
You see those folks in the orange vests right there, and the construction type best, those are all faculty and throughout this afternoon, faculty have at points linked arms at the entrance of the encampment to show support for some of the students in there because, of course, after that 2:00 p.m. deadline, the university has said that if they do not vacate, they will face suspension.
We have seen or heard of any action that is actually taken place since that 2:00 p.m. deadline, which we are now past at this point. But if they hold true to their word, the suspensions will like begin soon.
SCIUTTO: That suspension -- what about police response? Because, of course, Columbia in the initial response a couple of weeks ago, did arrest students and that caused -- that helped spark many the protests were seeing around the country. Are the students who remain under threat of arrest?
[15:50:05]
JIMENEZ: At this point? No. The university said this morning that bringing in the police department again, would be counterproductive after speaking to a number of stakeholders at this point. That said, of course, things could change over the course of, of how this progresses, and if this goes on longer and longer.
And this -- what is happening is different from what's happening at the gates of Columbia University, where, of course, people could be a little bit more susceptible to arrest. And, of course, students could attend those protests if they we would like as well.
So those are sort of the differences. But here at Columbia unit, the university president has to invite the New York Police Department into the campus. The NYPD has said they have not gotten and that request just yet, we have no indication Columbia has asked for it. And so right now, it seems this first step these students would face a
suspension. But again, if that does not move them from the encampment, it remains to be seen if any further steps would be taken from the university.
SCIUTTO: Understood. Omar Jimenez there, quite a moment to witness. Thanks so much.
MJ Lee joins me now from the White House.
MJ, tell us how the Biden administration sees these protests now, and what specifically, if anything, are they encouraging universities to do?
MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, of course, White House officials have been closely monitoring this situation. And in fact, White House Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre was just asked a number of questions by reporters in the White House briefing room about some of these scenes that we are seeing, unfold on college campuses across the country.
She sort of reiterated that the president believes that American people have a right to protest, but that he stands firmly against any kinds of sort of hateful rhetoric, any kinds of physical threats, certainly any words of antisemitism and actions representing the antisemitism. But she really wouldn't get into the specifics of whether a conversations have been had between senior White House officials and college and university leadership, for example, or any kinds of discipline, disciplinary actions that have been taken he can or could be taken against some of these students.
And I would say Jim, that is right about where the White House has been for the last few weeks as these kinds of protests have erupted on college campuses, these have been some of the broad talking point things that we have seen from White House officials as they have not engaged on the more specifics and certainly you'll recall that last week when president Biden himself was a New York City, he declined to visit Columbia University, which of course has been one of the EPA dissenters of some of the more intense scenes of protests that we have seen.
And I would say, Jim, too, that this sort of lines up with the sort of broader strategy that we have seen from the White House and the Biden campaign as well. You know, officials, we have been speaking to both on the official side and the political side have really said, we do not plan on making any kind of broad strategic shift when it comes to the messaging around sort of the protests that we have seen in response to the backlash against the Israel-Hamas war.
You know, officials have told me that they don't see this as being sort of an existential crisis for the president in fact, could ultimately cost him the election. That is not to say that they are not worried, that is not to say that they are not sensitive to these scenes, but it just goes to show that they do not believe that this represents the majority view. Of course, they see that these scenes are incredibly sort of dramatic and that the emotions are running really high.
But again, when it comes to sort of strategy and the political ramifications and the potential sort of political damage that this could cause for now, White House and campaign officials continue to insist that they do not think that this is going to end up hurting him. The president that is to such an extent that they need to make a major course correction of sorts.
SCIUTTO: MJ Lee at the White House, thanks so much.
So speaking to police response, I want to bring in Ed Davis. He's a former Boston police commissioner. Ed, good to have you on. Thanks so much.
ED DAVIS, FORMER BOSTON POLICE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Jim. Good to be here.
SCIUTTO: I wonder what you think when you look at the police response here. I mean, particularly in a place like UT Austin, not just what were seeing now in terms of arrest of protesters, but I'm sure you've seen the video of a professor wrestled -- a female professor wrestled to the ground by two cops face first into the pavement.
I mean, is that -- is that a good law enforcement response? Does that help or hurt the situation in your view?
DAVIS: Well, no police department wants to have a video that shows that kind of struggle so what those things are always counterproductive to the message that you're trying to get across. But remember you have to meet force with force and I just reviewed a document sent out by protesters about how to resist and how to fight the police and how to rescue people who have been arrested.
[15:55:11]
So make no mistake: this is a bit of theater that happens. There are times when police overreact. There are also times when protesters either through passive resistance or through kind of a plane resistance force the police into using what appears to be inappropriate force and --
SCIUTTO: From a cost-benefit perspective. I mean, like the one we said, it's hard to defend wrestling two cops who are big dudes wrestling a female professor to the ground. And I'm not saying that's what every police officer is doing on every campus, but I just wonder if there's a cost benefit here, because if you go back to the first arrest in Columbia, that's what then sparked other protests because people saw students being arrested for what they -- what they feel strongly as them expressing their opinions.
DAVIS: Right, and I'm not talking about that specific incident. I have not seen that video, (AUDIO CLIP) you're talking about. But I can tell you that the police don't want to be here. I've talked to police leaders recently about this. I've talked to mayors and present college presidents. I can tell you that no one wants this to happen. No one wants to have
that video occur but the right to free speech has limits on it, and when the officials at the highest levels, either the mayor's office or the college president's office decide that they want a particular area cleared --
SCIUTTO: Right.
DAVIS: -- then it's up to the police. They do the best that they can. Will there be problems on both sides? There's no question, but this is a very different (INAUDIBLE)
SCIUTTO: Ed Davis, good to have you on. I appreciate -- appreciate you.
DAVIS: Thanks, Jim.
SCIUTTO: And thanks so much to all of you for joining me today. I'm Jim Sciutto.
"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.
