Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsroom
CNN International: Police Confront Protesters At University Of North Carolina; Judge Fines Trump $1,000 For Each Gag Order Violation; In A New Interview, Trump Says States Should Decide Whether To Prosecute Women Who Have Abortions; Netanyahu Tells Hostage Families That Israel Will Enter Rafah "With Or Without A Deal"; King Charles Visits Cancer Treatment Center On First Official Royal Visit Since He Was Diagnosed With Cancer In February. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired April 30, 2024 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[15:00:37]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: It is 8:00 p.m. in London, 10:00 p.m. in Tel Aviv, 3:00 p.m. in New York City, and here in Washington. I'm Jim Sciutto. Thanks so much for joining me today on CNN NEWSROOM.
And let's get right to the news.
We are following two major stories today.
Today's day five of testimony in Donald Trump's criminal hush money trial. Earlier, the former U.S. president was fined $9,000 for violating the gag order in this case. At this hour, Trump has removed the social media posts which the judge, Julian Merchan, ruled had violated the gag order. We're going to have more on that story in just a moment.
But first, it's been another tense day on college campuses across the U.S. We are looking here at live pictures at Chapel Hill in North Carolina, UNC-Chapel Hill, there.
We also have news just out of Brown University which has come to agreement with protesters there. The university says it will hold a vote on divestment from Israel later this year that is ending investments in Israel. It's a key demand from students. Students have said that in response to that, well, they will disband the encampment by 5:00 p.m. Eastern today.
Meanwhile, it's been an eventful 24 hours at Columbia University in New York, which has been the epicenter to some degree at these protests as students. Now face expulsion after they moved into and occupied a campus building, Hamilton Hall overnight. That move comes after the Ivy League school began to spending students who were refused to leave the encampment. The campus is now closed with only essential faculty and students living on campus allowed in.
Elsewhere across the nation, protesters at Cal Poly Humboldt in California were removed after occupying school buildings for a week, closing that campus, the White House has condemned, quote, forcibly taking over buildings. They call it again, quote, the wrong approach. Arrests continue at many campuses across the country as these protests grow.
Ed Lavandera is at the University of Texas, Austin, where protesters were forcefully arrested yesterday.
First, I do want to go to Julia Vargas Jones, who is inside the Columbia University gates. I believe outside the building that protesters have now occupied.
I wonder what you're hearing from students there both inside the building, but also outside. I wonder if other students support the action that they took overnight.
We may have lost her signal there on Columbia, so I'm going to go to Ed, who is still in Austin, Texas, at UT-Austin.
Ed, you described yesterday that the protests, which was relatively small compared to recent days, there were arrested though is police moved in yesterday? How our police acting there today?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I think the number of people who attended the protests yesterday might have been smaller, but it turns out the number of arrests that were made yesterday was larger than the protests we saw last week. We were told by Travis County jail officials here in Austin that 79 people were arrested.
The county attorney last week dropped all of the criminal charges against the protesters, but this week, sounding very different. In fact, the county attorney release a statement earlier today saying that she is troubled by the escalation in the protest here on campus and that she is speaking with university officials on how best to proceed and handled the criminal charges that these protesters are now facing.
But, Jim, here today, a much different scene, at least so far. This is a gathering of protesters and kind of groups that have been involved in some of the protests over the last week-and-a-half now. And here really it's been peaceful.
There are a couple of professors talking to either students or people who are visiting the campus, talking about Palestinian and Gaza issues. And that's kind of been the theme of what has happened here for the last hour or so and there's also been a great deal of criticism of the law enforcement presence that took place here yesterday. Their view excessive force was used.
We've heard repeatedly as we reported on this yesterday, Jim, university officials simply have been saying for days now that they were not going to tolerate any kind of encampment tents brought onto the campus, any kind of sense that there was going to be some sort of occupation on any space here on the University of Texas campus?
So that's they -- they say there are reasons for escalating the police presence here on the campus yesterday. But so far today, Jim, a much different scene.
[15:05:07] Meanwhile, you know, university officials always bracing the way things developed yesterday was very quick and caught a lot of people by surprise. And so, you know, obviously, the tensions remain high as you university officials on guard as to how any of these protests, no matter how peaceful they started, how they might unfold or develop in the hours ahead.
SCIUTTO: Ed, understood. You stay there, standby.
We are going to go back to Columbia University campus where Julia is good. We've got her signal back up again.
So, Julia, I asked you before. I'm just curious. What is the current stance of the students occupying Hamilton Hall right now.
JULIA VARGAS JONES, CNN REPORTER: Well, Jim, so just moments ago when we have the news about Brown University, a committing to a vote on divestment, this crowd here cheered loudly.
Of course, this is about 20, a few dozen people that are united here, they're coming to support the students that are hold up. You can see just moments ago, we had people up. They're giving supplies, giving people pizza. They're very much committed to not leaving, Jim. I think that the news from the university that they will be facing expulsion, were only embolden the protesters.
I don't think that this will the feeling I get from this ground is that this is not going to make them budge at this point. So much has happened. There's so much that has escalated on this campus starting with two weeks ago when there were arrests on this campus. This rally, I want to give you a closer look at how things are going. Right now, it's all about the logistic of the operation, sorry about that.
But this is how things are operating. They're bringing up food to the students. They've been up there for about 12 hours now, since about last night. You saw the videos of how this happened. There was a human chain outside this building with faculty and staff trying to help other people from entering and leaving just students who have decided that they're occupying this building.
Yesterday at 2:00 p.m., Jim, there was a deadline for protesters to leave the encampment. I hope you can still hear me, where they had been for a couple of weeks that deadline came and went. The university gave the opportunity for students to find a document saying that being would start abiding by university rules.
Not a lot of people took that seriously. They deface those forms. They said absolutely not. Columbia, we will not be abiding by your goals and they're still asking for divestment, Jim. That is the one, like big bold letter requests that these protesters have.
SCIUTTO: Do you find that students on the campus support this move? I mean, it's led to not just the occupation that hall, but really the shutdown of the central part of the campus there.
JONES: Some do, the ones who are here, of course, do. But this is this small sample of people who were actually organized and engaged. There are 30-plus thousand students at Columbia University, and the opinions are quite diverse. It is disrupting finals. This is rocking of potentially graduation, other events, classes.
I told you, I'm a student here. I go to the graduate school of journalism. You know, I got in with my badge here this morning. I can no longer leave (INAUDIBLE). My classes are all online now. And there is a big question and it's difficult to see this going (INAUDIBLE).
SCIUTTO: Julia Vargas Jones there.
As we've been speaking to her, those are those relied pictures behind of course, from Columbia, but on the left-hand side of our screen, these are live pictures from Chapel Hill -- University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where there's another protest underway. Students gathered there at the flag pole, not clear what they're doing with the American flag, and also not clear from the images we're showing now whether there's a police presence there.
But this one of several campuses where you've had students with a regular presence on the center of the campus, and we're going to see and continue to cover how authorities at UNC Chapel Hill react to that protest there.
So you'll see visions of images from North Carolina, from New York, from Texas.
Joining us now, we're going to go back to New York for a moment. Noah Bernstein, he's a student at Columbia, the deputy news editor of the school paper, "The Columbia Daily Spectator".
Noah, thanks so much for joining.
NOAH BERNSTEIN, DEPUTY NEWS EDITOR, COLUMBIA DAILY SPECTATOR: Thank you for having me, Jim.
SCIUTTO: You know, it's worth noting that on this day 56 years ago, students protesting the Vietnam War also breached Hamilton Hall, the same building those students are occupying right now. So this is a -- there's a historical tie to what we're seeing take place there.
[15:10:02]
I wonder what the reaction is from students on campus as you cover this, as "The Spectator" covers this. Is there a lot of students support for the protesters or are actions like taking over a campus building, to some, a step too far?
BERNSTEIN: So, Hamilton, as you're correct to point out, is a symbolic university building for the demonstrators to occupy. In '68, around this time, demonstrators successfully occupied it back then. Now, it is still home to the office of the dean of the college, the admissions office, and the office of the core curriculum.
This is definitely a central part of undergraduate student life. This building represents just that. However, whether or not students agree with this still is up in the air. Things have developed so quickly, especially overnight and because campus access is so restricted, many people haven't gotten to actually witness the occupied building itself.
So we are still fielding student perceptions about this as we speak.
SCIUTTO: Have you been in touch with the leaders of the group who've taken over Hamilton Hall?
BERNSTEIN: So we've been sourcing with everybody that we can possibly talk to about this, those in the building, those in the administration, those who at least for now have no dog in this fight. And what we've learned is that the demonstrators seem particularly adamant that they will not leave the building until their demands are met, primarily divestment from companies with ties to Israel.
SCIUTTO: And it's quiet, we should be clear to our viewer, divestment would be the end Columbia's investments in companies tied Israel. But to be clear, they're not just talking about Israeli companies, they're talking about U.S., international companies such as Google, et cetera, if I have this right, who invest in Israel in any way.
To be clear, as I'm speaking to Noah, I just want to be clear that the images were showing on the large part of our screen are actually from North Carolina as police there respond to demonstrators there. And sometimes you see, as you saw, there, there's physical contact among.
Noah, you heard the news from Brown University. I'm sure that brown students who had set up their own encampment are now agreeing to dismantle it by 5:00 p.m. today because the Brown Corporation has said it will take a vote on divestment from Israel and companies tied to Israel.
I wonder, how is that news being received in Columbia? And is that what a vote say of the Columbia Corporation satisfy the demands of those currently occupying Hamilton Hall?
BERNSTEIN: So there have been a number of divestment votes from student councils in Harvard, they don't have responsibility over the university's holdings we don't know exactly how a vote among the board of trustees who are responsible for deciding about Columbia's investments would pan out, although it seems unlikely that Columbia would vote, at least among the board divest, although many students have made it clear that they would support such a decision.
SCIUTTO: The police arresting protesters at Columbia couple of weeks ago. Not only failed to stop the protests there, in fact, to some to some degree, they've fueled them and helped spark the protests we've seen at other campuses in solidarity with those students that were arrested there. As you've covered this, what is your sense of how the university is balanced, speaking with protesters and responding to vote protesters by, for instance, calling in the police to arrest them?
BERNSTEIN: So enforcement, you are absolutely correct, is a very important theme at Columbia's campus right now. It's one that has been something we've covered for a very long time now, there were new interim demonstration policies released a few months ago, setting specific time and place regulations. An internal task force on antisemitism at the university endorsed these policies. In March, however, at question whether they'd be enforced. This was echoed in a congressional hearing on April 17, at which the university president attended and testified.
But today, it's not just a matter of what the policy says, nor whether they're enforced. It's also a matter of how demonstrators are regarding the punishments that are associated with violating these policies. As of now, the NYPD has had a presence around campus, but not yet inside it since the arrests made on April 18.
SCIUTTO: Well, Noah, you got quite a story to cover there. It feels like another moment in history is we compare it back to 56 years ago when students occupied that building to protest another war. I hope -- we hope we get to talk to you again.
BERNSTEIN: Thank you, Jim. Appreciate it.
SCIUTTO: What is week three of Donald Trump's criminal hush money trial.
[15:15:01]
Right now, the prosecution is questioning Keith Davidson, who is the former attorney for Stormy Daniels, and Karen McDougal, two women who said they had affairs with Trump and who were paid to keep quiet. We're going to check in, coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Today in the criminal hush money trial of former President Donald Trump, how much money is a Trump scandal worth? Testifying on that question is attorney Keith Davidson. He represented the adult film star Stormy Daniels, helping to broker that $130,000 hush money payment covering up her alleged affair with Trump, which is, of course, at the heart of this case.
So far, Davidson has testified that interest in Stormy Daniels story, quote, reached a crescendo when right in the wake of the "Access Hollywood" tape in 2016. He also shared details about another catch and kill deal with another client, Karen McDougal, who also claimed she had an affair with Trump.
CNN's Katelyn Polantz is with me to go through this.
Katelyn, it's notable that lots of text messages were submitted into evidence today, specifically, going through the negotiations between Davidson, Michael Cohen, and AMI, of course, the company behind the "National Enquirer". What were prosecutors attempting to show with all that?
KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME & JUSTICE REPORTER: The prosecutors have already told the jury at the opening of this trial that they're going to hear from Michael Cohen, ultimately, the supposed star witness of this trial in a lot of ways, as he was working for Trump to bury these stories but they have also told the jury they're going to corroborate that with other witnesses and with evidence, things like text messages agreements emails, and that's where we are today.
Today is a day of maybe not star witnesses, but key witnesses. Keith Davidson is one of those people. He was the attorney for Karen McDougal, who was trying to have her story about an alleged affair with Donald Trump, sold.
[15:20:06]
Her motivation was to make money to perhaps revive her career, but also, she didn't necessarily want her story out there before the 2016 election, which is how she ended up having this deal with the "National Enquirer" brokered through her attorney, Keith Davidson. He's spoken about that for much of his time on the stand. And now, he's talking more about his relationship with Michael Cohen, who he knew was working for Donald Trump at the time of 2016, 2017, that he understood that these catch and kill situations would benefit Donald Trump and his campaign. And that at the moment after the "Access Hollywood" tape became public during that campaign, it created quite a market for stories about Donald Trump's relationships with women to be out there.
And so that's when the Stormy Daniels situation comes in. Keith Davidson ultimately starts representing her and he's going to be very likely continuing to talk about that and his work with Michael Cohen to get money to Stormy Daniels and to hide -- allegedly hide it being publicly known that Donald Trump was behind that effort.
And listen, at the time when the "Access Hollywood" tape came out, there were a lot of Republicans who thought that Trumps campaign had been mortally wounded in the wake of that. And I think that's why prosecutors trying to connect those two.
SCIUTTO: Tell us about the gag order ruling, because the judge, even as he was issuing it for nine poets post finding $1,000 per post, or $9,000, he lamented that that wasn't going to move Donald Trump too much.
POLANTZ: Yeah, but he did have a warning there that if there are willful violations, if they continue in a way that really would influence witnesses who aren't out there publicly, that that could result in incarceration, if the judge finds that appropriate at the time. Now, these fines are meant to have these posts removes from the Internet which Donald Trump has already done for the nine posts that are in violation of the gag order, but also the judge is trying to send a signal to the former president that this is his courtroom.
And when the judge says that, you can't say a certain things, you will face some level of consequence if you break that court ruling and that decision. So there is another gag order hearing next week or I'm sorry, later this week on Thursday, whenever there is going to be a discussion of the four additional times the prosecutor say Trump has violated the gag order, but the judge is looking at these things one by one, and he is fining Trump $9,000 at this time for nine alleged or now certain violations of that gag order in the most recent days, right up to trial.
SCIUTTO: Yes. All right. Katelyn Polantz, we were going to come -- we'll come back to you later in the hour for further updates. Thanks so much.
I do want to bring in, meanwhile, Jeff Swartz, former Florida judge, professor of law at Cooley Law School, and Jennifer Rodgers, CNN legal analyst, former federal prosecutor.
Good to have you both on.
And, Jeff, I have to ask, when I saw the testimony here with Stormy Daniels' former attorney Davidson, testifying, not just about Stormy's deal, but also Karen McDougal's deal. And I know that prosecutors are attempting to show a pattern, but then I thought of this Harvey Weinstein ruling which overturned his conviction based on the use of other accusers' testimony.
And I wonder, from your perspective, does that raise questions, risks about the prosecution's case?
JEFFREY SWARTZ, PROFESSOR, COOLEYLAW SCHOOL: I really don't think so. They tried to tie it together with other elements that involve Stormy Daniels. The one thing that I saw was and you asked is how much is it worth for a story involving Donald Trump and a woman? Originally, Mr. Davidson thought it was worth 1 million. He ended up taking about $0.10 on the dollar.
So it really turns out to be not quite worth as much as he thought it was going to be worth and I think that it shows the kind of negotiations that took place, the fact that the McDougal deal affected the Stormy Daniels deal. I don't think that they're going to have a problem with this being brought in. It's a course of conduct. It also shows that there was no mistake and there was motive and intent in all of that happened here.
So I don't think they're really at risk bringing this testimony in at all.
SCIUTTO: Jennifer, another interesting moment today was to see a witness from C-Span called to court and Philip Thompson from a court reporting company that they had to testify that simple things like videos that were entered into evidence were real, that depositions entered into evidence were real.
What does that signify to you? I mean, is it just unwillingness between the parties to cooperate or is it also a delay tactic by the defense?
JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's really unclear, Jim, because of course, as we know, every day, morning, afternoon, and evening, Trump's out there complaining that he can't be on the campaign trail because he's sitting in court, but he wouldn't have to sit in court for so long if they would stipulate as parties virtually always due to these kinds of witnesses for not even being subjected to cross- examination. [15:25:15]
So the defense really has nothing that they want to do with them except for whatever reason forced the state to pay for them to calm and to waste everybody's time. So I just think it's another example of Trump's longtime scorched earth litigation tactics doesn't admit anything.
He doesn't give anything up. He doesn't concede anything. And in a situation where I think Todd Blanche, and the rest of the legal team is desperately trying to be strategic about this case. Maybe this was an area where Trump this, did that they forced the prosecutors to do it and Todd and the team said, okay, we will make them do this and they get a point that maybe they can use later to try to get him to be able reasonable on something else.
SCIUTTO: Right, given the reports of the difficulty between Trump and his own attorney.
All right, Judge, former judge, Jeff Swartz, the judge rules Trump violated gag order nine times, finds him thousand dollars per time because that's what the guidelines are. And as he's doing, he's saying, listen, I know this isn't going to affect this guy who's so rich, so much. And that's a shame. But I reserve the right to incarcerate if the behavior continues.
I mean, how would you approach this as the judge and what kind of footing would that puts you on going forward if Trump were to test the limits again?
SWARTZ: Well, first of all, he put this threat into this order. You let the whole world hear the threat. If he doesn't follow through with the threat at some point, then he's going to look weak, and that is exactly what Trump wants to have happen. He's going to push the edge of the envelope, he's going to push this for all its worth, and it isn't until he hears the clink behind him that he's going to understand he took a step too far.
To the same extent, I don't think that it affects the continuation of the trial in any way. He can go forward with any appeal he wants to, to get released from jail on a contempt citation, but that is not going to stall the trial.
So I don't think and it doesn't affect the ability of the judge to hear the case. It isn't a basis to remove him from the case. So I don't know what the strategy is here other than Trump trying to prove he is more powerful than the judge that is hearing his case.
SCIUTTO: All right. Before we go, Jennifer, the jury also heard from Gary Farro. This is a former banker from Michael Cohen. He arranged the home equity line of credit that Cohen used to pay Stormy Daniels, play in middleman here, really to pay off prosecutors say under Trumps instructions, here. How important is that involvement, the bankers' involvement here in terms of proving the prosecutors case?
RODGERS: Well, he got in a lot of the documents that they want to use to prove the financial transactions. But more importantly than that, Jim, they're using him and a lot of these other witnesses to corroborate Michael Cohen in advance so that by the time the jury hears from Michael Cohen, Michael Cohen talks about things like, oh, I got a home equity line of credit versus yeah, we've heard about that from Mr. Farro and Mr. Farro is a witness who has no ax to grind, no biases whatsoever.
And so, the jury certainly believes him. So in this way, they're going through kind of pre-corroborating Michael Cohen, which is really smart for witness who we all know has a lot of baggage.
SCIUTTO: No question.
Jeff Swartz, Jennifer Rodgers, good to have you both.
So tomorrow when the hush money trial pauses for the day, Trump is going to hit the campaign trail. He's heading for Wisconsin for what will be his first rally since the trial started, comes on the heels of a wide ranging interview with "Time Magazine" in which Trump outlined his vision for a second term in office. What does it look like?
Well, mass deportations carried out by constructing migrant detention camps, broadly weigh to Republican states to ban abortions, as well as prosecute women who violate those laws, even monitor their pregnancies. He said he was open to possible pardons as well for the January 6 rioters, and much more.
With me now to break it down is CNN's Kristen Holmes. She follows the campaign closely.
Kristen, begin with a "Time" interview because we've heard there's been some reporting about Trumps plans for a second term, and just the lengths to which he's willing to go on a whole host of issues here, including abortion and his comments on abortion saying, listen, it's -- yeah, it will be up to states whether they prosecute women or two for having an abortion, or even a monitor their pregnancies to see whether they come in within the proper time-frame.
How is the campaign feeling about this interview? Do they want this out there?
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, I mean, let's break down what exactly is in this interview, because a lot of it is stuff that we have heard Donald Trump say before, or at least versions of it when he is talking in rallies, when he's doing other interviews.
[15:30:09]
But what they did here, they sat down with him for quite a bit of time hi in, walked through each of these issues and he actually answered the questions. So some of the stuff that he had avoided before were things that he was actually put to task on, and then did not give some kind of rambling answer or vague answer that we normally hear from him, but actually answered them, talking about, as you said, those mass deportations, talking about abortion. Now abortion has really been the thorn on the side for Donald Trump.
It's an issue that he doesn't want to talk about because of the fact that he believes that is not a political winner, but it's also an issue that he wants to take credit for saying that he is the modern architect of the overturning of Roe v. Wade.
He just came out in recent weeks saying that there should be left to the states that he wouldn't sign a national abortion ban if it crossed his desk, but he went further in this interview, ask specific questions. So I'm going to pull it up here.
He was asked by "Time" magazine, are you comfortable if states decide to punish women who access abortions after the procedures banned. Trump says, are you talking about a number of weeks, meaning a national ban? They said, yes, let's say there's a 15 week ban.
Again, that's going to be -- I don't have to be comfortable or uncomfortable. This is Donald Trump. The states are going to make that decision. The states are going to have to be comfortable or uncomfortable, not me, Trump said.
But he was asked, do you think states should monitor women's pregnancies? Should they know if they've gotten an abortion after the ban? I think they might do that. Again, you'll have to speak to the individual states.
Okay. He is really doubling down on this leaving it to the states here. This is something that we saw him say. And then after we saw the ruling and Arizona, he came out and said, well, that state is wrong, a clearly trying to have of his cake and eat it, too.
SCIUTTO: Yeah.
HOLMES: This is almost another version of this, except we take it to an extreme.
I would venture to say that the people who convinced him to come out, not in favor of a national ban, not come out in support of a national ban, are not going to like what it says here. They wanted him to kind of keep it loose on these restrictions. That's why they punted it to the states.
Now, he's essentially saying it's okay for the states to do these really arcane things. And I think if you look at the polling which we've been obviously analyzing for the last several years when it comes to abortion, these are not things that are widely popular among Democrats or Republicans, or independents.
SCIUTTO: Yeah. I mean, listen, it's also an issue you can't really fudge, right? I mean, if you're criminalizing abortion, you're criminalizing abortion and hard to throw that off on the states.
Kristen Holmes, thanks so much.
HOLMES: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: Still to come, King Charles resumes his public duties. His first visit was to a cancer treatment center.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:36:15]
SCIUTTO: Welcome back.
Earlier today, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told hostage families that Israeli troops will enter Rafah with or without a hostage deal. U.S. officials say they still have not received any indication from their Israeli counterparts that military action is imminent. This as Secretary of State Antony Blinken said today that he believes a hostage and ceasefire deal is, quote, achievable.
CNN's Jeremy Diamond has the latest.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Israeli officials are awaiting Hamas's response to the latest ceasefire and hostage deal proposal.
But as they are doing that, the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is vowing that Israeli forces will enter Rafah one way or the other. He says with or without a deal, Israeli forces will enter Rafah and eliminate the Hamas battalions there.
Now, he is the Israeli prime minister. His words should certainly be taken with a seriousness that they require, but they should also be taken with a grain of salt and viewed through the lens in which they were delivered at. And that is certainly a political lens, one that is, words that are intended for a domestic political audience as the Israeli prime minister tries to ensure that his right flank in his current government sticks with him.
But there's no question that this is bluster in part and that's because in speaking privately with Israeli officials, it's very clear that a hostage deal would indeed a prevent or at least delay a significant Israeli ground operation in Rafah. If there is a hostage deal, that means that there will be a ceasefire on the ground. And that means that Israeli forces will not, for at least some time, enter Rafah.
And there's no question that the possibility of that rough offensive is weighing very heavily on these negotiations, weighing very heavily on this latest Egyptian framework which could see some 20 to 33 Israeli hostages released over several weeks, weeks of pause in the fighting and potentially even a longer-term ceasefire for at least one year.
But now, the question is, what will Hamas's response be? Hamas's leader in Gaza, Yahya Sinwar, has received this proposal over the course of the last few days, and he's been reviewing it. And his response could come as early as today, perhaps tomorrow, but there's no question that that response will be critical to determining whether or not a hostage deal, a ceasefire will be possible. In the coming weeks, or whether instead Israeli forces will begin evacuating civilians from Rafah and then moving troops in.
Jeremy Diamond, CNN, Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Thanks, Jeremy Diamond, for that report.
Well, images from the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill, where tensions are between student protesters and police. You see them there. We're going to be live for an update from campus, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:42:12]
SCIUTTO: Well, welcome back.
Returning to one of our top stories. As early this hour, police clashed with protesters at the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill. The situation now appears to be much calmer. UNC has canceled classes for the day. That is the last day before exams.
Dianne Gallagher, she joins us now from the campus there on Chapel Hill.
And, Dianne, I wonder what worked. How did the situation get diffused?
DIANNE GALLAGHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I don't know if I would say it necessarily got diffused, Jim. I will say that organizers with Students for Justice in Palestine just came around on their megaphones basically saying if you are here to protest for Palestine, we should disperse. This event is over and we've seen quite a bit of clearing out since that point.
Now, I will say what you can still see behind me is sort of this flagpole, which became a flashpoint, oddly enough in the middle of this protest. The protesters who were here during the day having a very peaceful, very large protests for Palestine. They had a silent vigil as well. They came down to the flagpole. They took down barricades that were put up earlier this morning after the university in law enforcement cleared an encampment that had been out for about 90 hours.
So university said, at around 6:00 a.m. they sent the notice out 5:37 a.m. and began clearing shortly after six. They said that the students were in violation of both state and university rules because they had tents erected on this area. Now, they'd had them twice before. They eventually took them down.
I spoke with students about that. They number one, said that most of them were sleeping when that 5:37 a.m. notification came out. They said that they are -- at best, many of them had ten minutes to actually try and get their things together and get off of Polk Place here where the encampment was. They said though, for them, they put those tense back up because the
university had not engaged in any honest negotiations with their demands to divest and disclosed financial investments that the university has. Now, they say that this has been something they've been trying to work with for the university for almost seven months that this is not something that's only been going on for the past 90 hours since this new encampment came up.
But there were about 30 people who were detained. I spoke to the district attorney. They said that it's a mix of those who were arrested as well as those who received citations. I talk to students and those who were also arrested. We said they felt that it was violent and unnecessarily aggressive in that arrest this morning again, just after 6:00 a.m. all of them have since been released. They came back up for the protests.
And it sounds like you are seeing video of that police altercation with the protesters who were arm in arm around that flagpole after they raised the Palestinian flag.
[15:45:06]
I will tell you that the interim chancellor of the University of North Carolina actually came out sort with that flag. He was congratulating students who were the chanting "USA" after this happened and you saw just how tense and violent that situation got with those students, again, a much different situation here now, Jim, but it's been a long day. They canceled classes. It is the last day of class classes, but they canceled classes and all any sort of additional activities that are happening today.
SCIUTTO: Just one question before we go. Dianne, is it clear that the protesters are students because at some of the campuses, there been outside groups, outside involvement as well as students.
GALLAGHER: So I will tell you that the vast majority of these protesters are students, faculty, or staff members. They are associated in some way, not just with the University of North Carolina, but this has been sort of a triangle area encampment. So North Carolina State University, Duke University, Meredith College, all of those universities sort of came here to the University of North Carolina to have a joint triangle area encampment.
There was one student who said Carolina, it's the first time ever said, go Duke in my life. They were all together as university students. So they weren't necessarily all UNC students. But the vast majority were students, and/or faculty staff members.
There are, of course, for some additional protesters. But again, the vast majority of people at that encampment are associated with university somewhere in the Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill area.
Dianne Gallagher, good to have you there. Take care of yourself there and your team will come back as news develops.
Well, today, the White House weighed in on the pro-Palestinian protests disrupting major universities across the country.
National security communications adviser John Kirby said that people occupying campus buildings are taking the, quote, wrong approach in protesting the war in Gaza. President Biden briefly spoke about the college campus protests last week.
CNN's Kayla Tausche is at the White House.
Kayla, I wonder how the president plans to navigate this moment going forward. It's not like he has control over this necessarily. I -- I just wonder, are they worried about the progress of this and what role did they see going forward?
Well, certainly, Jim, there have been many Republicans who have pointed the finger back at the administration and faulting them for the chaos that's been erupting at campuses nationwide. But the president and his top aides continue can you to walk the tight rope of supporting free speech while saying that protesters do not have the right to incite violence, to promote hate speech, to overtake certain buildings, and to essentially ruin the academic experience for the vast majority of paying students at these campuses.
And in response to some of the questions from Republicans about whether there should be a role for the National Guard and all of this, the administration and Kirby by name earlier today said that at present there is no move to try to federalize the National Guard and that any mobilization remains in the hands of the governors of the states where these protests are taking place.
Now at the moment, all eyes its are on the potential for a ceasefire and hostage deal in the Middle East that is currently in the hands of Hamas. Secretary of State Tony Blinken is in the region. He's trying to secure that deal and there's a sense that that deal coupled with commencement in a few weeks could significantly take down the temperature at campus nationwide.
And yesterday, as Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre, you know, about some of this and she said that, you know, that they all want the same goal, they all wanted the war to end. And that is what this ceasefire deal would do. And that is the first priority of the administration right now.
SCIUTTO: Let's see if that deal comes together.
Kayla Tausche at the White House, thanks so much.
So there is one core demand driving these student demonstrations.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEMONSTRATORS: We will not stop. We will not rest. Disclose. Divest. We will not stop. We will not rest. Disclose. Divest. We will not stop. We will not rest. Disclose. Divest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: You heard that, disclose investments in Israel and then divest. That is sell those investments.
While the specific ask vary by school to school, the general ask is this: withdraw the university's investment funds from companies which students say are profiting from Israel's military operations in Gaza. In some cases, that includes major companies, not Israeli at all, such as Google, Microsoft, which have business ties to Israel and to the IDF.
At Brown, we just learned the administration agreed to hold a board vote on the question of divestment this fall. That a major win for the student leaders who say they will now disband their encampment at Brown.
What would it mean to divest from all these companies? Is it possible? We're talking about some major international firms.
Joining me now to discuss Chris Marsicano. He is a assistant professor at Davidson College who studies divestment movements.
[15:50:03]
Professor, thanks so much for joining me.
CHRIS MARSICANO, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR, DAVIDSON COLLEGE: Thank you so much for having me, Jim. I'm thrilled to be here.
SCIUTTO: So to be clear that as you know, better than me, the BDS, the boycott, divest, sanctions movement as it relates to Israel is not new. There have been some who oppose Israeli policy as regards to the Palestinians, who have been calling for divestment for a number of years now.
Can you explain student demands specifically and how broad they are? And they vary some from campus to campus, but to be clear to our viewers, it's not just divesting from straight up Israeli companies, but it's investing from U.S. and other companies that have ties to Israel.
MARSICANO: That's exactly right, Jim.
So when we talk about divestment with respect to Israel, what students generally are asking for is divestment from all weapons manufacturers, divestment from companies that are based in Israel or do business in Israel and then divestment from companies that do business with Israeli companies.
So it's very complicated to even just route which those, which companies are operating in Israel at any given time.
SCIUTTO: That's a broad group you're talking about there, right? Because, you know, you're talking about several concentric circles, I guess, of investment. I wonder, you know, would the demands be more achievable if they were more targeted, right? Targeting for instance, companies directly involved with say, Israeli weapons manufacturing?
MARSICANO: Well, proponents of divestment argue that this is exactly what happened in South Africa 30 years ago. Thirty years ago last week was the when Nelson Mandela was elected president, thereby ending apartheid and protesters point to the 150 some odd schools that divested from South Africa that saying, this is definitely possible. But I'll point out, just five colleges and universities were totally divested. Divested not just from South African companies, but from companies that did business in South Africa in any way, shape, or form.
It's extraordinarily complicated and unlikely to ever be able to accomplish. And students probably are asking too much in terms of what is achievable.
SCIUTTO: But divestment itself is not -- I mean, I think at my own college experience, going back a million years, but at the time it was the divestment movement from South Africa, and there are some, many, in fact, who look back at South Africa and the eventual end of apartheid, who say that sanctions such as that and divestment helped move South Africa.
And I wonder if these student groups are basing their strategy in part on what we saw 30 years ago as relates to South Africa.
MARSICANO: You're absolutely right. Divestment is not something that's new. We saw it. Students pushing for divestment in apartheid in South Africa. We've seen more recently, students pushing for divestment from fossil fuel companies and fossil fuel businesses. And now, most recently, the BDS movement.
Students definitely want you to be asking that question. They want to be seen as -- as the inheritors of that cause, of that cause of sort of equity and the downtrodden, that the mechanics are a little bit different. In the 1980s, with the divestment movement from South Africa, stocks and bonds were purchased directly by colleges and universities.
Now, endowment managers aren't really stock pickers. They're not using an e-trade account. What they're doing is what you and die and many others in America are probably doing, which is investing in (INAUDIBLE) funds or private equity.
Once you start pulling those funds that are more and more complicated, it just becomes very difficult to identify what investments are actually operating in Israel and whether or not you can even divest from it.
SCIUTTO: Well, Brown, at least, is going to take a look at it, and we'll see where that goes.
Chris Marsicano, thanks so much for joining us.
MARSICANO: Thank you so much, Jim.
SCIUTTO: And we will be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:56:35]
SCIUTTO: Before we go, King Charles is back in the spotlight today. The king along with Queen Camilla, visited a cancer treatment center in London to highlight the importance of early diagnosis, this marks the king's first public engagements since February when he revealed he is battling cancer as well.
This is the first of several engagements the king is expected to carry out in the weeks ahead. Good to see him back on the job.
Thanks so much for joining me today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.
"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.
